Regarding Mother's Basement and Media Analysis & Critique

CONTEXT: We were talking about Detroit: Become Human, and I was talking about how I think it's not a great game, which led me to linking Mother's Basement's video trashing it, someone said they don't like Mother's Basement's videos, which kinda started this whole conversation.

Sophilautia — Today at 5:55 PM
It's just kinda a really clumsy attempt to tell a civil rights story using Androids as allegory
But shrug
Naoki-Saten — Today at 5:55 PM
"I'm starting from the premise that David Cage is a hack"
this is just the Classroom of the Elite video all over again isn't it
Sophilautia — Today at 5:59 PM
Most of the criticisms I've seen of MB are "he said the thing I like is bad" and idk I feel like that's a low bar to criticise someone for
If we can make the argument that they are trashing on stuff without thoroughly engaging with the material and only offering shallow surface level critiques, that's something I can get behind more
But I think he's pretty thorough in most of the videos I've watched
If you say you disagree with him, that's fine too, but that's different from saying he's a bad creator
I guess I feel a kinship with him because we agree on a lot of shit and have quite similar tastes
Naoki-Saten — Today at 6:02 PM
I've seen like three videos of him and I didn't like them
that's pretty much it
Sophilautia — Today at 6:02 PM
🤷 Fine to not like someone I guess
I think the biggest critique I can make of him is he sometimes gets heated and makes people feel bad for liking things he criticises, and that's something he's admitted to and has been trying to work on avoiding, ending most critical videos with "If you like this, more power to you"
I can also relate to this lmao
I've definitely been guilty of it
Naoki-Saten — Today at 6:05 PM
it's mostly the condescending tone that rubs me the wrong way
"I'm starting from the premise that David Cage is a hack"
Sophilautia — Today at 6:07 PM
Hmmmmm
This is an interesting conversation
I don't see anything wrong with that statement
It's an admission of bias in a cheeky way
But also a statement of opinion
Naoki-Saten — Today at 6:08 PM
It reminds me of hate-reviewers on MAL, or bloggers in general who build most of their careers on bashing things
Sophilautia — Today at 6:08 PM
Reminds me of Kanon from Kaza lol
Rose — Today at 6:08 PM
i don't watch him anymore but I used to be a big MB fan
the only "anituber" I ever really watched
i often didn't agree with him (he got famous by bashing SAO and I'm an SAO fan) but I always respected the effort he put into his analyses
Sophilautia — Today at 6:10 PM
I'm trying to think about what it is that differentiates bashing I like vs bashing I don't
Because I sometimes love a good bashing
So
I kinda hate dunkey
I feel like when he's bashing media I lose all interest
But I think it might come down to a Type of ignorance or stubbornness that I take issue with
Like he loves bashing JRPGs, a genre he has never liked and probably will never like, and doesn't make an effort to understand the appeal of
Whereas I feel like MB, at least more so in recent years, makes an earnest attempt to engage with the media on a deep level and try to find good in it
Even while tearing it apart
I really like the Alicisation video because it's extremely thorough. He tears into it a lot but he is very open about parts he does like
But idk I think hating stuff is fine
Good even, sometimes. But if you do, you have a responsibility to be thorough and fair
And admit your own limitations
Cinema Sins for example is the bottom of the barrel when it comes to film criticism
Spikeness — Today at 6:16 PM
I think a lot of online film criticism is kinda eh when you look deep enough
Sophilautia — Today at 6:17 PM
Like all the people complaining about FF13 without trying to engage with the game on its own terms
Most of the criticism I've seen comes from the first two chapters
Before they even understand the game or have access to basic features
But if you can play the whole game and really engage with it fairly and still critique it, I'll probably enjoy your review
This happened with a video review I saw recently about FF13 about a guy learning to appreciate the game and still finding things to complain about, and I actually agreed with the complaints
But I suppose there are always going to be limitations. You can't ask someone to finish a long game or series on the promise that it gets good later if the start sucks
Spikeness — Today at 6:20 PM
I mean you could if theyre presenting a review/analysis :V
Sophilautia — Today at 6:20 PM
But I also think people like that need to be very transparent if they're writing a review
Idk this is stuff I think about a lot and it's complicated
Media is subjective, but that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to have opinions
But opinions can have powerful repercussions too
Spikeness — Today at 6:22 PM
Depends on how they present the opinions, a lot of youtube reviews of any media end up being >well i work in the area or have studied it so my opinion is the right one 😂
Sophilautia — Today at 6:22 PM
A meme about the start of FF13 being boring can ruin people's perception of the game for a decade
Sophilautia — Today at 6:23 PM
Yeah this is a problem
All reviewers need to have some humility
Spikeness — Today at 6:25 PM
I dont know how that applies to a lot of the gaming content on youtube, but im sure theres a reason
Dircashede — Today at 6:25 PM
It might speak to my character but I've always had a bugbear about people going out of their way to use objective language more often as kind of a simultaneously lazy & uppity way to make a point. Like it's psychologically cheating
Sophilautia — Today at 6:26 PM
Sometimes I've been called out on using objective language and have to clarify that I don't believe in objectivity in media analysis at all
Dircashede — Today at 6:26 PM
but in general any reviewer with an audience brings about a delicate balance because inevitably they create a situation where their fans will parrot their views without second thought to perpetuate these things, usually in more dismissive tones than was initially suggested (and often it was just a personal thing), and that's a tough thing for a content creator to control
Sophilautia — Today at 6:27 PM
That's very true
And I think that's a large reason some people hate mb
Because of the damage he did to the Sao brand
But hmmmmm
God this is interesting to me lol
I think when it comes to bashing things, I think it's more justified to punch up?
Sophilautia — Today at 6:28 PM
I tend to only bash things that are really popular
Dircashede — Today at 6:28 PM
(ftr had never heard of MB before this discussion)
Sophilautia — Today at 6:28 PM
And SAO was a megalith when MB released those bashing videos
It's okay you're not an anime fan lol
Dircashede — Today at 6:29 PM
ahaha
Sophilautia — Today at 6:29 PM
Even after releasing the videos Sao is STILL incredibly popular
I think it took a hit because people online love to shit on it
But people still watch it and praise it
Dircashede — Today at 6:30 PM
often times what happens is if someone with influence makes a critical review of something, it galvanises people who didn't like it, as they now have ammunition to rationalise feelings that they couldn't articulate well themselves
Sophilautia — Today at 6:31 PM
Yep yep
I've been in that boat lol
It's probably intellectually lazy but I still do it
Dircashede — Today at 6:32 PM
or alternatively, it makes them feel more comfortable speaking out about it because they know they're not quite as alone on it
Rose — Today at 6:33 PM
there's a tendency for anime fans that spend a lot of time in insular circles to think SAO is reviled by if you take 2 steps away from twitter it was always super popular

SAO is still my reference because I left america back when it was the big thing but I'm sure the same is true of, uh, jujutsu kaisen? is that what people like now? uh
Dircashede — Today at 6:33 PM
(for instance, I have many polarising opinions on music that I never share because I gain nothing from it and I've seen what certain fanbases can be like. Sometimes this is the case for people who write professionally)
Rose — Today at 6:33 PM
it's just every time there's been a series where it feels like EVERYONE shits on it, that's only true for twitter or whatever and anime normies eat it up
Sophilautia — Today at 6:34 PM
Full disclosure I am a sao hater lol
And I watched all of the first two seasons
There were moments that I could kinda turn my brain off and enjoy
Naoki-Saten — Today at 6:35 PM
I liked part 1 of season 1. And "Mother's Rosario"
But the rest is just wtf
Sophilautia — Today at 6:35 PM
But overall I think it's pretty bad
Yeah +1 on mothers Rosario
Rose — Today at 6:35 PM
mother's rosario is one of my favorite books
god i cried so much
Sophilautia — Today at 6:36 PM
I actually really liked the first 3 episodes of sao
But the writing quality degraded significantly after that for me
I haven't read uh
The new thing
The reboot
Maybe the reboot is good actually, I believe people can become better writers
I'll give it a chance when it's animated
Because the premise of sao is a good one
I just hate the execution
Naoki-Saten — Today at 6:38 PM
that's the whole thing with Otaku writers
They have interesting ideas
but often terrible, terrible execution
Sophilautia — Today at 6:39 PM
A tale as old as time lol
My first book I wrote is probably like that
No it definitely is like that
We all get better with time, usually
Some don't!!
Some are just hacks 😅
Usually the ones that are arrogant and stubborn and a bit narcissistic
I don't think Reki is like that
Naoki-Saten — Today at 6:41 PM
Most people never finish their first book
Sophilautia — Today at 6:48 PM
I'm also someone who liked Accel World, watched some reviews a few years later and had my mind changed to, yeah this does have a lot of problems actually 😂
But I probably still like it more than sao
I guess a good critical review of something can make me accept the flaws of something I like or even change my mind
A bad one will make me feel like the reviewer isn't even trying
Like one recently was Nezumi's 6 hour long breakdown of Danganronpa 3
I've always been a defender of that anime
But the critique was so rigorous and thorough that I couldn't help but have my mind changed, and I think that's awesome
Rose — Today at 6:51 PM
yeah sao progressive was really good. I was dying at the 1 floor = 1 book = 1 year to publish schedule. I wonder how many are out now? I'm looking forward to buying light novels again after I move home!
Sophilautia — Today at 6:52 PM
Maybe what's needed is.... Love :ai:
I think a good critique needs to approach the work from the standpoint of wanting to like it
Even if you ultimately don't
If you come in wanting to hate it, that's how you get a shitty critique
Naoki-Saten — Today at 6:53 PM
you don't need to go as far as love
just, go into it with an open mind. And no judgement (at first)
Sophilautia — Today at 6:53 PM
Don't mind me just using Umineko-isms lol
Because idk I think the MB Alicisation video is earnestly trying to see the good in it, even if he tears it to shreds
I'd also like to point to my Raging Loop review lol
That game turned me into the joker 🤡
But I do think in the review I admitted parts that were mildly enjoyable
Then ranted about how they ruined the things I liked about it
And if someone can respond to my criticism of the game and change my mind and teach me the value I missed in the game, that's awesome and why I love discussing media
Hasn't happened yet though 😄
Dircashede — Today at 6:58 PM
I feel like there might be something in it with the lore for people invested but I was pretty checked out at that point with the big info dump so I can't help :p
Naoki-Saten — Today at 6:58 PM
maybe this is a good time to talk about Hakomari 😜
unfortunately, I gotta go. See you around
Sophilautia — Today at 6:59 PM
Seeya~
Man hakomari
See that's a novel I didn't engage with enough
I don't have any grounds to tell people it's bad
All I can say is it bored me
If people like it then that's inconsequential to me
It means people saw more value in it that I didn't, and that means they win
They get more enjoyment / utility out of it than I did lol
They sucked out the essence I could not
Dircashede — Today at 7:01 PM
that's kind of how I am with most things I don't like. Don't really have the energy or will to elicit rage so I just kind of move on and respect that people must be getting something out of it
Sophilautia — Today at 7:01 PM
That's fine, but I don't think rage is inherently bad is basically my thesis here
Dircashede — Today at 7:01 PM
(unless like it's something hateful that warrants it)
Sophilautia — Today at 7:02 PM
Hating on things is fine, but I think there are standards to meet if you decide to hate on something
There are no standards for liking something though
At least I hope not..
Dircashede — Today at 7:04 PM
I guess it's kind of a thing for me where I used to be a pretty brash person about things I didn't like but I took a step back from it because I wasn't getting anything out of it, and it usually invited hostility in return that I wasn't capable of taking
Sophilautia — Today at 7:04 PM
But hating on things that are popular can be both fun and productive. It can lead to deeper conversations about media and there's a lot that can be gained from that. We can learn things about ourselves and others, we can learn to appreciate media more and get more enjoyment out of it, deeper enjoyment.
But there needs to be standards to prevent pointless and unproductive hate and fighting
I've had very interesting conversations with @Lobo👻 because we disagree on a lot of media
And I think we both benefit from it
But I guess that takes mutual respect and a degree of humility
It's almost like chivalry lmao
Dircashede — Today at 7:07 PM
oh I should say I'm not condemning it, it's just not really an angle that works for me. I think though there's a big difference between being hateful as a means of starting a dialogue and doing so in bad faith to stomp down dissent
Sophilautia — Today at 7:07 PM
Yes definitely
Dircashede — Today at 7:09 PM
And like I often have to think to myself, is this person being genuine or are they just using whatever language needed to force their view. Sometimes people can be so antagonistic that no one wants to engage with them, but all that does is leave their view unchallenged, and thus looking stronger
Sophilautia — Today at 7:10 PM
Not everyone is reasonable and civil I suppose
But I'll always stand up to people like that