prole judgment - elick vs ver

##Elick vs Verlux

#Connor vs Nanashi

**Verlux 1:**

- Nanashi fast & skilled, scales to Luo Lang who deflects arrows & blitzes dudes

- Connor unskilled

- Nanashi strong, cuts wood beams & scales to Luo, who cuts metal guns and picks up corpses one handed.

- Connor lacks dura, dies to random glancing swing.

Doesn’t that work for Elick though?

- Connor’s regen is on a delay, and when he comes back he’s not in immediate melee range. Can’t use initial surprise to oneshot because he’s slower and less skilled.

- Nanashi canonically prefers nonlethal incap anyway.

- Nanashi mogs and probably bypasses Connor’s regen by knocking him out w/ throat punch.

**Elick 1:**

- Connor skilled & strong. Bisection feat.

- Connor… fast?

Elick proceeds to admit he will be “heavily outsped by Nanashi” so IDK what is meant to be proven here.

- Nanashi is strong. So strong, in fact, that he kills Connor with even a glancing blow.

Bold argument let’s see if it plays out for him.

- Reiterating: Connor himself is strong.

- Predominant Japanese religion during the Sengoku era was a mix of Buddhism and Shinto, both of which have demons/yokai in them.

- Connor is going to appear to Nanashi to be a Yokai the second he revives in front of him.

- This thoroughly spooks him and makes him shift gears, assuming Connor isn’t human and he therefore has to exorcise him with rituals.

- Rituals don’t work and Connor kills him.

Ah. The “I got hardcountered so now it is time to guypost” argument. A classic.

- Nanashi OOT anyways

**Verlux 2:**

- Elick has conceded that Nanashi is better than Connor in a fight in every way.

- Elick has to prove Nanashi is religious for his guyposting to work.

- Connor’s tattoos aren’t an argument for being a demon, tats are old.

- Even if religion guyposting were true, Nanashi still opens fights with nonlethal. Would never see Connor regen to assume he was a demon to begin with.

- If he did kill Connor and saw it didn’t stick, Nanashi, as a rational combatant, would exhaust all the options at his disposal including KOs.

- Connor’s skill is trash compared to Nanashi’s

- Connor’s speed is even trashier

- Elick hasn’t even argued Nanashi losing yet

**Elick 2:**

- Statistically, atheism isn’t a thing in Sengoku Japan.

- Nanashi is probably religious.

- Connor has dura antifeats, which is good for him, because it means someone as strong as Nanashi trying to be nonlethal still results in him dead and regenerating.

- Nanashi wouldn’t think of trying to KO Connor after accidentally killing him while trying to be nonlethal because you can’t KO a demon.

Ignoring that Elick’s wincon requires an extremely specific not guaranteed sequence of events to happen, the blanket statement that Japanese demons/yokai can’t be knocked out requires an immense amount of substantiation to even be worth considering. Yokai range from ephemeral spirits to turtle-frogs who like to sumo wrestle, and it is absolutely not a given that none of them can be fought with physical methods like a knockout punch.

- Connor isn’t weak, bisection feat is good, and means he can oneshot Nanash if he gets a blow in.

I agree with this sentiment but after spending the first response conceding Connor is slower and less skilled this comes too little too late.

**Result: Nanashi Win.**

Elick basically conceded everything Connor needed to not lose here. Nanashi is undoubtedly faster, more skilled, and possibly a little bit stronger depending on how we calc that wood beam feat. Connor’s bisection feat is very very good but he’s gimped from taking advantage of it by the fact that his opponent’s default opener doesn’t give him a chance to get the surprise post-regen attack in he’d need to overcome the speed and skill gap. Connor’s stated wincon of Nanashi hitting in too hard and killing him by mistake is simply too unlikely for me to weigh against the much more simple wincon of “Hits Connor in the throat and wins.” Elick’s guyposting about religion was amusing, but ultimately irrelevant and indicative of the fact that Nanashi is a walking soft counter to the gimmick that makes his character viable.

#Max vs Roland

**Verlux 1:**

- Roland has actual running feats, has good cardio.

- This means Roland by default gets to the guns first ‘cause Max lacks running feats.

- Roland’s guns are powerful and Roland’s quickdraw is fast. Max can’t dodge his bullets and can’t survive even one.

- Max’s regen water is too slow to matter.

- Max’s shotgun doesn’t matter. He won’t reach it in time w/out feats to prove he does.

- Max in melee < Roland. Roland can will away pain and has superhuman reflexes.

- Roland is also strong enough to easily shatter wrist bones.

- Melee vs Max ends with Roland moving first, tanking his punches if he even lands any, and breaking his arms.

**Elick 1:**


- [Vidya Running speed calc.]

- Max has no limited stamina bar in the game and therefore we should default to infinite stamina

Maybe if you were only using the game version but you’ve explicitly composited.
I’d like to note that if I had a nickel for every time I had to judge a video game running calc not in the main RT during this tournament, I would have two nickels. Which isn’t a lot, but it’s weird that it’s happened twice.

- Roland’s running is actually stamina, so it doesn’t count as speed.

- Actually, Max *can* take a hit from Roland’s gun.

Another feat that’s not in the RT. I have a feeling Elick got a little hasty cobbling it together for the tourney last minute and it’s coming back to bite him.

- Water is actually useful situationally. If Roland ever disengages, Max regens all damage.

- Max strong. Max durable. Max skilled. Verlux is ignoring vidya stips.

Speaking of ignoring stips, where is Max’s dog? I would like to see him argued and he is currently not. I feel robbed.

- Max will fight to kill, not incap, meaning Roland’s ability to will away pain/unconsciousness is useless.

- Max is also fast. Crossbow & machinegun aimdodging.

- Reiterating Max strong w/ vidya feats.

- Max is actually faster than Roland. He is also plenty strong, fast, and durable enough to beat him in melee.

- Max kills with or without his shotgun.

**Verluix 2:**

- Max speed calc ain’t in the RT. It is also inconsistent with his portrayal in films and comics.

- Ditto with stamina.

- Ditto ditto for sniper dura.

- Water is still slow and therefore useless practically.

- Roland’s pain tolerance is useful because it means the fight is guaranteed to the death. Roland w/ his gun is better at being lethal than Max.

- Max’s best skill feat is presented as him fighting 6 guys, but is actually fighting 6 guys one on one in sequence.

- Every other Max skill feat is just brawling and Roland can still grapplefuck.

- Max’s speed feats aren’t terrible, but are unsubstantiated by numbers or scaling, limiting their usefulness.

- Roland breaks Max’s wrists w/ grapplefuck. Max has no answer to this.

- Max’s speed is fake, Roland’s speed is realer. Roland gets his guns first by default.

- Pew pew

**Elick 2:**

- Calcs aren’t allowed in r/respectthreads RTs so it’s fine. Also Elick made the calc specifically for the guy fight.

- The fight between Roland and Max is going to feature pauses as they look for cover, reload, etc. during which Max swigs water and heals.

- Pain tolerance is no good against an opponent going for lethal shots. Max doesn’t spare his enemies.

Scan where?

- Max’s running speed hasn’t been disproven outside of not being in the RT and so as argued he gets his shotgun first and shoots Roland dead.

- Max’s shotgun, like most shotguns, kills people. Max likes to use it to do so.

- Max’s shotgun is quad barreled and does big damage.

Not in several of those scans you just posted they aren’t. Composite Max =/= composite shotgun.

- Max can break out of grapples, and will do so if Roland tries it.

**Result: Max Win**

I’d like to open by saying, this win does not factor in Max’s non RT feats. I’d be willing to tolerate it if it was just one errant feat, as I did in the Captain Falcon R2 match, but Elick brought out several feats all directly relevant to the match without basis in the extant RT. That being said, Verlux did not convince me that Roland’s wincon of “gets to range first and wins” is a sure enough thing to compensate for the discrepancy in physicals between the two. Roland’s provided speed feats are fine, but nothing an athletic action hero human couldn’t do, and that’s something Max certainly is. Even without the olympic sprint the game calc gives him or infinite game mechanic stamina, Max is not so conceivably slower than Roland that they do not meet midway to the guns and engage in at least a momentary brawl. Roland is certainly fast and certainly skilled in a fight, but his combat speed caps out at blitzing human goons which is something Max can demonstrably do as well. It is also notable that Roland’s greatest speed feats in relation to humans are all generally in reference to a quick draw, while his engagement in melee consists of breaking the bones in a man’s wrist. Even without the non-RT sniper rifle dura feat, the material included in Max’s provided RT set his bones well above a normal man’s thanks to being able to shrug off being hit by a car. Max’s strength as well as his dura is well above Roland’s thanks to the shield busting feat and his ability to send crowds sprawling with a wario land shoulder bash. Elick also showed a demonstrable ability to apply that strength escaping grapples, meaning that Roland’s argued tactic when caught in melee was unlikely to succeed. I would like to note that much of this could have been avoided if Verlux leaned more heavily on Roland’s knife, but by arguing grappling attacks he played into Max’s far more substantiated blunt durability.

#MT vs Athrogate

**Verlux 1:**

- MT is metal. Cracker rusts metal. Elick has to prove MT can move while rusted or Athrogate oneshots.

- If she can move while rusted, Athrogate IC uses his flails in tandem. Cracker -> Whacker. Cracker rusts, Whacker busts rusted metal w/ explosion.

- Athrogate is riding Snort. MT has no mount. MT can’t outrun Athrogate.

- Athrogate’s reactions are solid off Drizzt scaling. MT can’t dodge Athrogate.

- Whacker strong. Explosions shatter a shield & the arm holding it, send enemies flying, and bust wyrm scales that nosell strong hits.

- MT can’t run, can’t dodge, and can’t afford to take a hit from either Whacker or Cracker.

- MT’s durability doesn’t matter in the face of rust.

- MT can’t do anything to Athrogate without feats to show she can dodge forever or move first.

- MT can’t reach ranged spawn, Athrogate’s pig is too fast.

**Elick 1:**

- MT is a mirror person. Mirrors aren’t made of oxidizable metal. MT can’t rust.

2/3rds of Elick’s matchups are now guyposting.

- Athrogate’s boar has no feats. MT can sidestep it or just take its charge head on, being made of metal.

- Athrogate’s scaling to Drizzt is OOT speed because 90ms vs 150ms.

- Athrogate has 1 OOT speed, nothing else. MT has 1 kinda crappy speed feat so in tier interp of Athrogate is automatically slower than her.

I don’t think that’s how that works but go off.

- MT durable and strong.

- Athrogate OOT dura or lame.

I’ve noticed this in previous rounds with Elick where he threatens but doesn’t act on OOT and I think he just wastes argument space doing it. Either declare OOT or let them dig a hole and argue against their character anyway.

**Verlux 2:**

- Cracker’s rusting is magical and works on any metal by D&D mechanics for rust monsters.

- Elick hasn’t argued that MT outruns and so the fight still ends when she gets smacked.

- If Elick thinks Athrogate has OOT dura or speed, he should make a callout.

- MT’s speed is worthless. MT’s strength ranges from bad to fine, but irrelevant due to disparity in combat speed.

- MT still dies either to rust or just getting hit really hard by an explosive mace.

**Elick 2:**

- Verlux’s own D&D rules scan for rust monsters shows they only affect ferrous metal.

- Ver’s rebuttal, that it corrodes mithril and so can corrode nonferrous metal, doesn’t make sense because occam’s razor. Rust monsters can only corrode ferrous metal. Rust monsters can corrode Mithril. Therefore Mithril is ferrous.

Solid point.

- Mithril has similarities to steel, which is a ferrous alloy.

- MT is still made of mirror metal, none of which rust.

Okay now argue she survives a hit from Whacker and we’re in business.

- Many dura feats.

Instead of saying “What” over and over, maybe compare these to Athrogate’s damage output for a stronger argument.

- Elick says again Athrogate’s dura is either OOT or lame.

- Elick actually calls Athrogate out as OOT.

**Result: Athrogate Win.**

Even ignoring the argument of whether or nor Cracker would rust MT, Athrogate is MT’s counter. A fast moving, hard hitting foe who attacks straightforwardly and then doesn’t stop is the enemy of MT’s slow tank archetype. Elick demonstrated solid dura for tier but nothing relevant in the face of Verlux’s strong opening showing how much of a devastating combo Whacker and Cracker make when used in conjunction for Athrogate’s default “bunker busting” tactic when faced with well armoured opposition. Even if I found myself agreeing with some of Elick’s points about non-corroding metals, he presented no viable wincon. MT couldn’t run, couldn’t dodge, and couldn’t weather the storm here.

#OOTs

**Nanashi:**


Result: Nanashi is In Tier.

Elick’s argument hinges on the fact that Luo Lang, who Nanashi scales to, is arrow timing feat. He argues that two of Luo’s feats demonstrate this fact. Verlux dismisses both of these as true arrow timing with extremely efficient arguing. Verlux convinces me here that the first feat is not Luo arrow timing, but rather moving his arm only somewhat slower than an arrow so he can tank it against his armoured arm bracer. The second feat, Ver barely needs to argue against. Verlux is right that it shows by the necessity of Luo using an improvised shield against arrows that he is not fast enough to dodge multiple arrows coming at him at once which is exactly what Lara is going to do. Verlux is also correct that even if Nanashi *were* an arrow timer, Lara would be sniping him from stealth so that he could not see the projectiles coming to react to them.

**Athrogate:**

Result: Athrogate is In Tier

Verlux has been remarkably consistent in his characterization of Athrogate as a berserker who charges blindly into battle, for better or for worse. In the tiersetter matchup, this is for worse. However dominant he might be in a melee fight, if he can’t actually enter one, that doesn’t mean a jot. Lara is, in fact, stealthy enough that she can reach her bow and proceed to lay a trap for the dwarf firing arrows he can’t react to coated in poison he can’t survive. A lot of this rides on Verlux’s careful wording scaling Athrogate to Drizzt/Jarlaxle, but Verlux played it safe all things considered and kept his pick in tier. Athrogate is a very strong, but not unbeatable pick with a combat niche countered by the tiersetter of this tourney.