The Gridcoin Fireside #20 - Blockchains and Cryptocurrency 2

The Gridcoin Fireside #20 - Blockchains and Cryptocurrency Part 2: Value, Money, Currency

Speaker 1:          00:00:10       Hello. Hello. Hello. Welcome back to another episode of the grid coin fire side. Today is September 19th, 2019 and we're going to talking about the big tree value, money and currency. Uh, part two of the running series of the answers. The question why crypto?

Speaker 2:          00:00:27       All right, so the first episode covered or the first part of the series covered the transition out of a trust based model into a cryptographic future. Uh, this one's going to be covering how blockchain and cryptocurrencies are kind of changing the way we view that big tree. I, I said value, money and currency. But before we get into that, let's do some fun intro stuff. The grid coin fireside is participant participatory podcast takes place every Thursday, 8:00 PM EDT on the grid coin discord server. Everyone is welcome to jump join. You can jump into the conversation to the voice chat. You can participate the text chat or whatever you feel like doing. If one of your host here won't stop talking, feel free to raise your hand in the chat and we will be sure to get you in. If you type something in the chat relevant to the discussion, we'll say it on the recording for you.

Speaker 2:          00:01:13       Also, if you want to talk about a specific topic, feel free to reach out to your host and we'll get it into a future episode. Now your host being myself, Jay Ringo, and down below, we've got the goblin pop er. We've got the goblin popper. This mic is very broken in the corner we've got, I like chocolate and Nethlek is here and muted as well and I am back being rusty, uh, after two weeks away. There he is. Does it work now. It does work. All right. Hello? Back from hiatus. Yeah. Where were you? I was getting drunk in the woods. Oh man, that's so much more fun than where I was. I rather be on this podcast every day that week than, than you know, just something. What if someone that, any other things, I won't mentioned that, there you go. That's exactly what I expect. Nethlek, your mic is not working if you're trying to talk.

Speaker 2:          00:02:03       All right, well I was not in the woods getting drunk. So booing you let Nethlek don't try to talk man. You're just making a buzzing noise. Though, Before we get into the main topic, let's do the news. Sorry. Don't worry about it. Um, not too much news over the past week. Uh, developments moving forward with the team requirement removal. Um, we have a couple of, we have a few teams testing that on main net. And again, if you are a BOINC team, that is not grid coin, but it's always been sort of interested in grid coin but didn't want to leave your team to get your grid coin. Feel free to reach out to anyone here and we will put you on what is called the team white list. Any team on the team white list, will be able to earn GRC without leaving their BOINC team.

Speaker 2:          00:02:46       So we're going to be doing that for the next couple of weeks, at least as we test the scale and capabilities of like the new Oracle nodes. Uh, and some of the new processes that are, that were put in the back end with the Elizabeth release in order to get us to the full team requirement, which uh, if all goes smoothly will happen in the Fern release, which will be, like I said, in at least a couple of weeks, probably longer, little longer. The goal is before the end of the year. Um, and beyond that we have an update to the grid coin dot world proposal. Uh, the proposal passed was validated. Awesome. Thank you for everyone. Thank you to everyone who helped get that done. Uh, there was a little hiccup when we were trying to get a donation address from the foundation cause this is the first time we've wanted a very specific address, um, in the foundation wallet so we could keep track of all the donations that are meant that are intended specifically to fund the website.

Speaker 2:          00:03:43       Uh, so there were some technical issues with getting that set up, but they're all sorted out now. So now we have an address that you can donate to that will be in the link below. Uh, as long as our, as well as a link to a little update post. I made saying what's going on. I basically mad max pain's working on the design. Uh, and we were, we just opened up donations, uh, today or yesterday. Uh, and that means that we have 40 days since this post is to raise 350,000 GRC. If those 350,000 years CR raise, the foundation will match with a second 350,000 GRC, which will fully fund the website and we'll continue building it. You know, we've already sort of started, but as soon as we get those fully funded, as soon as we know that it's going to be funded, we'll probably work a little faster.

Speaker 2:          00:04:32       Um, if we do not raise those 350,000 GIC, uh, within those 40 days, we're just going to stop. We're not going to build the website because it's a lot of work to build a website from the ground up and mad max in particular has to pay the developers to code developers. So, uh, yeah, we won't be able to do it if you don't raise the money. This is a perfect opportunity for Wells to step up and just fully fund the website right off the bat. We're asking for a very small amount of GRC that we know they have. So we've talked in the past about how whales could demonstrate that they are going to help build the ecosystem in the future. Here's a perfect example of trying to build something that has a very, very, very high probability of giving them a return on investment in terms of a product like once the product's out, uh, we can use it for marketing and outreach and it will just be a fresh new website that exchanges will like, uh, that we can use to get more people on our platform, which then increases the value of the GRC that they hold. So it would be awesome to see this funded in a day or two. You would just buy one person, uh, but if not, who knows, you know, do what you gotta do, uh, to do anything else with that. Are they any questions with the gridcoin.world proposal or the funding, anything like that?

New Speaker:        00:05:51       I have a piece of news. Um, I just want to mention the next project brief. You can join me on the next fire side. We'll be looking at amicable numbers and other math projects and I'll be happy to explain all the maths in simple terms and hopefully get everyone understanding the importance of some of our math projects in BOINC. That is exciting. I was just researching amicable numbers today and interesting stuff. I still don't quite understand the why, but I look forward to being an explain on like you understand it. I will beat those into, we're going to say something. God,

Speaker 4:          00:06:24       yeah. I actually had a, a general news thing about the crypto space I thought was interesting and I'd share, um, so I don't know when it was officially done, but um, a startup a recently apparently created some kind of, um, application and wallet to allow for the offline transaction of cryptos. Um, so for anyone else, so for anyone who wouldn't understand that effectively, it's like, um, like when you, when you show up your credit card, your credit card, will make a transaction. It'll first validate that your credit card is correct, the numbers actually connect to something properly, um, and that it'll actually make the transaction. Um, there are card systems like square, if anyone's gone to like fairs and you see like the squares at the top of people's phones, those are actually allow for offline where you swipe. It collects all the information, but no transaction actually happens unless it, until it hit the internet.

Speaker 4:          00:07:21       Um, so by, by allow it, by having this technology, it's actually a really, really cool technology in terms of like, if it works out the way they say, it works, right. I haven't seen it, but if it works the way they say it works, which means that having crypto wallet on your phone would allow you to make offline transactions and then as soon as everyone got connection to the internet, you would sync to the blockchain. So there's a really, really cool technology and the fact that it got introduced to the crypto space means that, um, it actually really just, it's, it's now in line with a lot of other, uh, regular transactional currencies. So

Speaker 3:          00:07:56       I thought that was cool. It's a very important development, um, because, uh, one thing, and we're going to be talking about values today, one thing that does give value to crypto is the ability for people to use it. So if you make it easier for people to use more people, we use it. Oh, it's pretty neat. And Goblin just posted the link here in the chat. I'll be sure to put that in the description below. For anyone listening to the recording here.

Speaker 4:          00:08:16       I mean, and just to just play. It's, it's, it's, it's, I would, I would argue it's, it's beyond just like, it's, it's beyond just like neat. It's this is, is this critical slash pretty much a requirement to be in the, in the space legitimately, right? Cause this is something that credit cards don't even do. Um, this is something only services around credit cards do, right? Like again, a big example that everyone's probably bumped into at least once is Square, right? Um, where someone will have like a small craft stable, they'll have dozens and dozens of transactions a day, right? Like, you know, it's a small craft craft fade or whatever. A lot of dozen, maybe three dozen, four dozen transactions. They will have not technically made any money until they go and go to their house or they go to a coffee shop and they connect to the internet and all of those transactions are processed. So like being able to do that but with another currency is pretty important.

Speaker 2:          00:09:11       Absolutely. We'll be, uh, interesting to keep an eye on. I know there are several other, um, yeah, uh, Terencelee says, Oh, by already has this functionality, there are people trying to figure out this problem all over, all over the place. You know, some people are even shoving satellites in the space. Uh, just a transact to send the black chain all over the place.

Speaker 4:          00:09:30       Yeah. And to be clear, I'm not, and that's kind of why I'm, I'm not like giving out this, this company's info in the, in the podcast not cause I, I don't think this, this company made some crazy revolutionary thing in my head. It doesn't sound like it would be crazy hard to do an implementation. It sounds like there's a lot of, a lot of security around it and a lot of things that need to go into place, but I can't imagine someone else hasn't already done this. I can't imagine that, um, this hasn't already been thought of by some open source community that's super, super small. Right? So it's nothing new. It's just the fact that being implemented and mainstream media picked it up in terms of this is a thing that now exists. Whether or not it existed before.

Speaker 2:          00:10:08       Yeah, really cool. Uh, Nethlek had a question going back to the website. The gridcoin.world Website here. Uh, he asked are there running costs? Are there higher than current ones? If so, how much higher and how will we pay for it? The current running costs for the grid coin us website, are they exist? They are mostly negligible. They are funded by the grid coin foundation, but they do exist, uh, the running costs, they're, they're basically just paid for from the foundation. It's a hosting services and all that stuff. Uh, the running costs for the gridcoin.world website are going to use this new implementation of a new tool called a verified side staking address. I've explained to in depth in previous episodes, Nethlek, I think you were in here for it. Uh, the way a verified side staking address is works is it is a, it's an analog proof of concept of a incubation tool.

Speaker 2:          00:11:00       So a entity, let's say a blank project or in this case a group of people trying to build a website come forward and they request a certain amount of funds. Those funds are raised from one way or another. Let's say for this example is a BOINC project. Ronnie wants to get started up so they asked for a hundred thousand GRC straight out of the gridcoin foundation. They are approved through a voting process or some process that we have to vet and you know, all this stuff or even through smart contracts well into the future and then they get those a hundred thousand GRC in the contract it says that they can never spend those a hundred thousand GRC. All they can do is reap the staking rewards and with those a hundred thousand GRC, they are given an address that is verified to be theirs so that people can now donate to that entity without wondering, is someone going to run off with the money and go do some crazy stuff.

Speaker 2:          00:11:50       There are other communities that already sort of do this sort of thing. Uh, one example is called library. We'll probably be talking a little bit more about that next week as a little teaser. Uh, but that's basically what this is. So the way that this site will be funded, uh, is that from the gridcoin foundation, the running costs, it's asking for a hundred thousand GRC. It's your start up a side staking address. Uh, normally it would ask it from the foundation, but this is the first implementation. There's no technology behind it is completely trust-based. So I'm not asking, I'm running the site, right. I'm did the proposal and did a lot of stuff and some people, uh, so I am just funding the verified side staking address with 100,000 GRC and probably a little more, it would be awesome if a whale came in and reimbursed me because why not?

Speaker 2:          00:12:38       They clearly have a lot of money. And again, this is a good opportunity for return on investment. Uh, but uh, so that is how running costs are funded. It's a concept driven thing. Nethlek, it's about the [inaudible]. He says, wait, you want to finance it purely from side staking awards, not the donations themselves. No, I want to finance it by staking rewards and donations and through business practices. But this is a demonstration of a concept. It's going to be financed out of my pocket most likely. But the demonstration of the concept is the important thing because uh, with this tool, this is a tool that's from legacy banking systems that people use to incubate startups all across the world. So we want to bring that from the legacy system into the new digital revolution. So we're going to prove that it works. And again, other communities do do stuff like this already, so we're just kind of learning from what they've done and making it fit our specific means.

Speaker 2:          00:13:35       If this works, we can make it part of the code base, we can then use it to fund scientific research. We can use it to fund education, we can use it to fund BOINC projects, we can use it to fund whatever we want. That isn't big if we have to prove that it works first. But that is the short answer to your question. The real answer is much longer, but we're not going to get into it. He says as long as it's coming out of your pockets and not the foundation, if donations fall short, then I have no objections. Again, the initial building of the site is being crusted from the community and from the foundation. That's that funding goes to coding the site, building up the design and putting in the initial content. The running costs are going to come from stake rewards side stake and donations that my pocket.

Speaker 2:          00:14:19       Yeah. So I, if it continues to go from my pocket for longer than a year, the contract I put out in the proposal says I will find this thing for a year afterwards. I'm going to reassess it. I think I actually say I am allowed to reassess it after nine months and I also have a clause in there that says I can pull out anytime because it's my money. Uh, but I'm probably going to keep it going for at least a year. If at that point it, there's really no support from the community, I'm probably going to shut it down because it's not worth it. I would like to see support from whales in particular. We'll cross that bridge when we get there. Uh, so that answers your question. I think I saw another question in the chat up here. All right. Oh, current balance. The current balance of the uh, wallet is loading 58,260 GRC.

Speaker 2:          00:15:04       It's been up for 24 hours and there was only one significant donation. I really am hesitant to ask for donations from people who are not whales at this time. It's, I would rather see one lump sum come from a wallet and fill it up than a bunch of people who really can't afford it compared to these whales. Throw it in thousands GRC here, 5,000 there. I would like to see a 300,000 GRC donation by one specific whale it's been up for 12 hours. Nethlek, you have to read the proposal. My dude, it's all in the proposal. There's a full mockup in there and there will be updates as the design gets built. So, says me doing my homework. Get real. All right, so we're gonna move on to the rest of the news. Just keep things moving along. A gridcoin. He says, Oh, Hey, gridcoin is listed on TXbit that should have been one of the first things.

Speaker 2:          00:15:59       Um, yeah. Gridcoin won the, uh, what was the community vote by a bunch of votes and uh, I guess we're listed on TXbit now came out this post this three days ago. So we just got up there. I think there are three trading pairs. It's Bitcoin, Ethereum, and Solaris , XLR, whatever that is. Uh, the books are very thin. The exchanges doesn't have a bunch of liquidity, but still it's a pretty decent exchange. Fairly new. Give it a shot, uh, and see what you think. I dunno. It's pretty nice to have, uh, some good news like that, Nethlek asks, if it's our first ETH pair. It is our first ETH pair, I think. Do we have an ETH pair on a South exchange? No. Well, what's the movie on the Etherium pair? Yeah. Um, on South exchange we only have I think, USD, LTC, and one other.

Speaker 2:          00:16:49       Can't remember that last one. But yeah, never. I've never seen Gridcoin with an ETH pair. Was there a doge that was on CCX I think. And uh, Netflix just pointing out BitcoinCash the last pair that I've forgotten from South X. alright, so that's pretty cool. We now have two centralized exchanges, South exchange and TXbit and one decentralized exchange which is on the bit shares decks through the Rudex gateway. Uh, and of course if you are an exchange, listen to this, we're always looking for more. Feel free to reach. All right, last bit of news here comes from uh, the BOINC team called Crunchers Sans Frontiers. They are hosting the Thor challenge, which is their first fourth year hosting. The Thor challenge is hosted in the world community grid. It's a challenge between a bunch of teams trying to get most crunching done.

Speaker 2:          00:17:39       One of the cool aspects of BOINC is that you can do these team challenges. Just to kind of have some fun with other and fun is something we've been having. We've been trading some bars with the Obyte community. Uh, I was actually on the radio show. Uh, they invited me on to talk a little bit about Gridcoin and BOINC and spar a little bit. I told them we're coming for them, but they're really pulling away. Obyte is in first place, grid coin is in second place and we are moving into the second week of the Thor challenge starting September 23rd. So we were second place at the end of the first week. And then I think there's like three or four cycles of this going in the second week, the top 20 teams from the first week battle. And then I think it's like the top 10 or 11 teams after that.

Speaker 2:          00:18:25       Uh, so we've definitely made it into the second leg, and we'll probably make it into the final leg in end in second place. But very exciting competition. Shout out to Crunchers Sans Frontiers for putting this on and for doing it for four years in a row. That is a uh, persistence. Uh, very cool to see in the BOINC community. Like as we are coming for them, we're just not going to catch them. Very true. Alright, so that's all the news. I got. Anyone else got anything? All right. And before we get into the main topic, I want to do a community highlight this week. It's been a while since we've done one. Uh, this week I wanted to give a shout out to robotic mind who is someone who, I have never heard his voice before, come to think of it, but he does a lot of work with the marketing team and the Twitter team.

Speaker 2:          00:19:08       He does a lot of proofreading, robotic, wow. Too easy, got to love the low hanging fruit man. So he's, he does a lot of work with the uh, marketing team and a proofreading and he helps with the Twitter, brings out suggestions and stuff like that. Uh, mostly on Slack. You can also catch him around on discord. He has a moderator in discord, but he's, he chills with his name in invisible mode, so you can never tell if he's online or not. Uh, if you do see him around, send them some love. So tell them thanks for what he does in the community. It is great to have him around. If anyone wants to do a community to shout out in any week coming up and you don't want me to delete it, feel free and we will give you some time to talk about whoever you want to talk about.

Speaker 2:          00:19:53       All right, so with that done, let's get into the main town. All right, so we are continuing the, uh, what's it called? The series on, uh, the answers to question why crypto, like I said at the beginning of the first week covered, uh, the transition out of a trust based system and kind of the problems that arise when you have arbiters of trust, centralize or centralization of power, uh, lack of participation, lack of stake in systems, stuff like that. And today we're going to talk about, uh, blockchain and cryptocurrency and its original intent, which is disruptive financial industry and specifically currency, but it's doing things in a very interesting way. Um, so I mentioned the big tree and the, I don't know if this is a real thing or not, but it's how I like to look at it. So you have what we would call money.

Speaker 2:          00:20:43       Uh, you have value. You have what you would call money value welders, I'm gonna use that word as in a different definition in a second. So you have value. And then on top of value you have money, then on top of money. You've currency. Currency is a tool to transact. Money is an actual thing that has specific rules to play by and value as an abstract concept that changes from person to person. Although there are some very global values across the world. Are there physical values? And then there are uh, personal like moral values or cultural. So currency in the world we live in right now is largely Fiat, which means it's based in trust in government. Uh, the government gives it its value through, uh, demand structures like taxes. And the government also controls the tool, the, the knobs and levers, if you will, of the tool itself.

Speaker 2:          00:21:35       So they are able to print more money, they're able to change rates, mostly they're able to print more money. Uh, so, uh, currency can be inflated like crazy. And this has happened many times throughout history, man of barrel. Check your mic. Uh, and what happens when a currency fails, when a currency gets hyper inflated out of existence, which just means a bunch of it gets printed so that every unit of the currency's worth zero. People try or uh, fall back into money using money as a form of transaction as a tool and money. Oh, I don't know them off the top of my head. I don't have in front of you. But like I said, it has specific things, specific rules. One of them is that there's a finite supply of it. A, it can't be faked. Uh, stuff like that. It is a little more solid.

Speaker 2:          00:22:23       A good example of money is gold, but gold has some problems with it even as a money cause you can fake money, uh, and supplies largely controlled by people mining it. Uh, but for a long time people said gold is the hardest money in the world, which means it follows those rules very specifically. Uh, and then money systems generally don't break down, but you can exchange with value as well. Uh, but money generally will represent a value. Uh, so we don't need to get into that. But what Bitcoin did with cryptocurrency has done, at least in my view, is it's tied the three together. So people are called Bitcoin the hardest money that's ever existed cause you literally cannot fake it. It is, it's S uh, inflation rate is hard coded into code that will probably never change. But if you do want to change it, you have to go through the open source model of changing things, which is getting open source blockchain model changing things, which is convincing a super set of nodes to change the economic system.

Speaker 2:          00:23:26       And in order to do, uh, to do that, it's very, very, very difficult. Uh, particularly once a network, uh, crosses a, a threshold of participation. So Bitcoin has very likely crossed that threshold of participation where it's economic system will never change. There's going to be 21, some odd million Bitcoin that ever exist there. Maintain rate is going to be what it is, where it haves every X number of block. Uh, and that's it. There are other coins like grid coin, which is, has not crossed the network threshold where we can change our economic system fairly regularly. We get to tweak with it. We get to experiment, uh, and stuff like that. And we have done that. We went from a percent, uh, interest reward model to a CBR model and we're probably gonna change some stuff in the, uh, mid to distant future. But the, the concept of hard coding and economic system into code that can reach a point where it can't be changed, makes it the hardest money that has ever existed.

Speaker 2:          00:24:23       So that means that, and sorry, and it is simple to transact. A big difference between, to transact with the big difference between money and currency is that it's very hard to exchange gold for a good or service. You have to carry it around and then you have to chop it up into little pieces and weigh it out and do all this crazy stuff. Uh, currency is a great tool because it's generally just a slip of paper. Uh, I mean, you can have shelves of currency, but the whole point of currencies is portable. Um, so with Bitcoin it's a money like gold, except it's very easy to transact with it. It's all digital. You can gold and currency or money and currency are now the same thing. And then on top of that, uh, blockchains are programmable. This is programmable money. So if programs are just ideas put into computer code, put into logic structures and decision trees, we can put direct value.

Speaker 2:          00:25:19       If an ideas are representations of value, we can put value, cultural value into money directly. So we have a money that can serve as a currency and a direct representation of value. So we'll be able to exchange one value for another rapidly. So I believe in the grid coin network and Bitcoin represents the value, uh, that is presented when you contribute computing power to science and research. That is a value in a currency that is controlled like a money. And then I want to trade that for doge coin. And doge coin represents the value we give to sort of fun loving, crazy, a meme nonsense, right? Uh, or you could do it with pink coin. Pink coin does like philanthropic ideals. The, each of these currencies in this, what we've described as a multicurrency economy represents a different value and we're going to be able to exchange between one another. They also are money and they, because we can exchange with them, they are currencies as well. So that is what I'm just going to end it with. That's the way to kick it off. That is revolutionary. It's going to change the way we can do everything cause currencies. Just the fact that it's programmable money and not a currency is great. Does anyone have any thoughts on that giant ramble? That was like eight minutes.

Speaker 5:          00:26:39       Yeah. Uh, I came to, uh, question, it's a very difficult question, which is could mankind one day operate without money.

Speaker 2:          00:26:49       I like to think so. Uh, but okay. I forgot to press the button down. Um, so, um,

Speaker 4:          00:26:57       the answer is sort of, um, that kind of gets into a kind of space if anyone here is really, really big into star trek, right. Um, uh, that kind of gets into the star Trek space where effectively they, they've figured out how to turn, um, bright energy into matter. Right. Um, because they were able to do that at removed all scarcity or nearly removed. When you can remove scarcity, you don't really need money anymore. Scarcity

Speaker 5:          00:27:23       as far as the know matter can be created or destroyed. So I'm not, I wasn't going down that out of, uh,

Speaker 4:          00:27:28       yeah, but sorry, the part of the point just being the point, just being, in order to get away from money, you need to remove scarcity, right? That's, that's, that's how you would have to be able to get away from it.

Speaker 5:          00:27:40       We can have different additives looking at the artificial intelligence to keep track of value rather than money. So rather your value would be determined in real time.

Speaker 4:          00:27:48       By what or what, what is, what is the value though? Well, it could be a rating system. So that's China not necessarily,

Speaker 5:          00:27:59       aren't there like that? Yep. We have technologies like Neuro Link coming about where people may be directly connected with each other and to the internet. Right. And you know, machine learning, uh, there might be more efficient ways to keep track of value without having to use something. So simple as a currency.

Speaker 2:          00:28:20       Well look, the point of a currency or a money, a transactable money is to be able to exchange a good for another good or a service, uh, exchanging goods or a service for another good or is there,

Speaker 5:          00:28:32       let me give you an, like a scenario. I kind of thought of wishes like maybe in the future if you're connected to the system, like you would have an intuitive understanding of what you could take out of the grocery store rather than a savings account. So you know exactly what to take. Or maybe the store would give you a list of things that you could take.

Speaker 2:          00:28:50       If that would still be money, that would still be money because you would be given an allotment and then wasn't just the money would be given. It's like social security. You're given a couple thousand bucks a month.

Speaker 5:          00:29:01       What does real time, so it would be money with a savings account.

Speaker 2:          00:29:04       That's blockchain. Blockchain is your savings account. You are your own savings account.

Speaker 6:          00:29:11       He's,

Speaker 5:          00:29:13       you can't save money because it's, it determines your value in real time.

Speaker 6:          00:29:18       Beryl. So, um, like have you ever heard of the, the theory that uh, debt came before money and credit debt and credit came before money or currency rather? So I think that's sort of what he's describing is that money is really just a, a means of exchange between people who don't have, uh, access to, you know, would be this, the social, uh, register of debits and credits owed by people. Don't interrupt. So what he's describing, I guess I think you can correct me if I'm wrong, is a sort of system where you, you don't have a intermediary between people in the form of a, an object or in the form of a, a, of a unit of account. Essentially it's just your, your credit worthiness as an individual and your past debts as an individual and current debts as an individual are just known by some sort of act.

Speaker 5:          00:30:23       It would be complete upon me. Um, yeah.

Speaker 2:          00:30:27       Are we actually going to start talking about currency now? Cause isn't this what the topic of the Fireside is? So let's tie this, tie this into a crypto a little bit. Um, as, as a relevant, maybe not in the hundreds of years when we have a functional AI that can do that. Um, but something that's about to happen, very likely going to happen soon. But something that's very likely about data and facts if I remove it now, suddenly that's very likely going to happen is a bunch of jobs are about to get automated away. Uh, and people are gonna have to find a way to get money to get a currency in order to exchange between one another. Uh, so one thought is I think, which is sort of similar to what Foxify is describing, but maybe not, I don't know, is that you have a share of this network and these networks or blockchain networks and they all, each one of them represents a value.

Speaker 2:          00:31:18       Uh, and you are, uh, for with gridcoin, you have like, you get a return on your investment by helping sustain that network. You get 10 GRC every time you move to a blockchain forward. Uh, and there are other models. Some are, you know, you can experiment with, uh, CBR or experiment, the APR, uh, and, and stuff like that. So maybe people are going to have to transition into, uh, putting their productivity into networks. And from that they get a currency or a, basically a debt ledger, which they can then draw from whenever they go somewhere to buy something. Maybe. I don't know. Does anyone else have any thoughts? Not about AI?

Speaker 6:          00:32:01       Yeah, I mean, but that's, that's sort of what most money is digitized anyway now, right? So cryptocurrency is just a literally just a record of debits and credits. There's no physical intermediary. It's just, that's all it is. And that's what we used to be. It's just a, it's a social, it's a social medium by which people know, this guy owes me this and then I owe him this. So everyone just knows this. If you didn't, if you didn't have a society where that all that information can be kept in the heads of the people in the society, you would need the currency.

Speaker 5:          00:32:38       Well, the humans even today are basically adults to take tribally. So for living in a tribe, I, you know, everybody there, you know everybody's value. You know what everybody needs. You don't really need money, right? So if we've got a system where we had, it could increase our empathy to deal with millions of people, we would maybe understand what everybody needs in real time.

Speaker 4:          00:32:59       So this is what we talked about last week. We had that system, we started with the tribal, we went to a trust-based where we had third parties telling us how to interact with other tribes, but to deal with millions of people. And then what blockchain has done is make it so that you can deal with millions of people without having to rely on a third party. So I think we've built what you're describing, if I'm understanding what you're saying.

Speaker 5:          00:33:19       Well, I was thinking more on the lines of eliminating the need. Just how to even have a savings account to even like hold a balance

Speaker 4:          00:33:26       other than the fact that you have a reputation, right? That is blockchain. Blockchain still holds a balance. A balance is just literally a number after debits and credits. If you have a debit and a credit, you have a balance of debits and credits, which which equals a single number, which is the same as an equal. You have a reputation. Is that a particular number? Yeah. I think having a reputation go into a balance is more theoretical obviously. Maybe, but, but just as a reminder, right? Like a, I'm not, not saying we're skipping a ton of steps, right? Some of it's like a little semantic but, but it helps explain a bit of a picture, right? When you go from a tribal kind of like, my job is to, is to hunt, right? I am going to go hunt and I'm going to bring back a deer and shoes will be given to me because I provided the Shoemaker with deer meat to eat, right?

Speaker 4:          00:34:21       That works in an extremely small group where everyone is personally known because you see that guy working and nobody feels shorted. Nobody feels like they're carrying someone who should be working harder and they're just giving their their value away, right? When you start to get just slightly bigger than that, you start to get, instead of like a little tiny little tiny like village, you get to like a, like a town, right? It starts getting to the point where it's like, Hey, I have these shoes and, and I'll give it to you, right? And your, you're a farmer, you're ready. Do you have an Apple orchard? And it's just like, well, okay, fine. I'll give you two bushels of apples for the pair of shoes. It's like, well, I don't want apples. I want deer meat. I was like, well, I can't give you that. And it's like, then we can never trade. We can never, ever, ever, ever trade because I can't get what I want from this. Right. So they're just, yeah. Just as a reminder, there is a little bit of an intermediary step before it goes from that to an immediate trust-based and eventual like city and societal task-based, right?

Speaker 5:          00:35:19       It has to evolve to that point. Um, it, I mean, gridcoin could be a stepping stone towards that direction because, uh, we are going towards, uh, computational or donating computational power. Uh, more than currency. Right? That's a big shift right there from what we're used to. Of what for or people are used to today, which is, you know, money is a crutch, currency of the crutch and deal with or lack of understanding for each other.

Speaker 3:          00:35:45       I know crazy currency is known as a tool. That's it's definition. It is a tool to facilitate. It's when you have your leg broken and you walk around the crotch, it's a good thing. Why does everyone say crutch and a bad connotation? It's not something you followed. Currency is not something you fall back on. The currency is something that progresses things forward. So Delta brings up a good question here. He says, where does crypto get its value? I'll let someone else answer that. I feel like is you want me to just start to play down there? What did he say? Do you want me to just like explain just in general what, what I'm asking? Cause I did have a discussion like this with my friends the other night. So if you go and look at the contemporary financial market, you say what's the value in gold?

Speaker 3:          00:36:26       And you say, Oh, gold, a safe haven for investors. It's used as a input to produce computers and electronics. So it has some sort of demand. Okay. What about something like oil or oil is used to run out cause so it has value on market sectors. We tried it and stuff like that. The thing is what about cryptocurrency? Cryptocurrency, there is no obvious demand for cryptocurrency yet. How come it's worth? It's according to what? Um, all the websites online say. Apparently it's worth a lot of money except I don't see how it gets its value. That's what a lot of people that I know have asked and I, I do have some answers to that question, but I think, um, if someone else wants to start a start off, um, that can have a crack at it. I'd love to hear why some people want it.

Speaker 3:          00:37:11       That's, that's, that's the value and that that is, um, that there, there are actually a lot of things that do determine its value. Just much like gold, gold to a lot of people is precious. So it has some sort of rarity and they think, Oh, it's race. I'd better get some before everyone else does. So that's, that's one area of value. Um, another area of value is... I have it written down somewhere. CA. Um, the fact that you can store and hold cryptocurrency without people seizing it, freezing it or destroying it is another point of value too. Because that cryptocurrency, the concept of cryptocurrency is pretty much the ultimate safe Haven. Investors usually dump their money into gold if they want a safe Haven. And except when you buy gold, usually you're only buying like a little slip of paper that says, Oh yeah, you're owed this much ounces of gold.

Speaker 3:          00:38:00       Right? But when you use the safe Haven of cryptocurrency, you can buy that cryptocurrency, take it off the exchange, stored in your wallet. No one can touch it except for you. Just so long as you have the password and you don't give out that password, you're describing money. Right? Pretty much. Except the money itself is the, the value in itself is that you have total control over it. And as you were saying before, we're moving away from the trust system. All right. And that is actually a fault of gold like people. If crypto is the hardest money that ever existed, what was gold now gold was one of them was the hardest money that ever existed, but it had to fall. You described for the,

Speaker 2:          00:38:36       one of the big ones is that it could be confiscated by military force. Uh, and it was throughout history. You can't do that with crypto. Like, I mean, sure, if someone holds a gun to your head, you're probably going to give it to me password. But like crypto can be ignored. That's one way to fight against it. Okay. But the value of it maintains, stays the same. It is a, a fungible. Let me find the full definition of it. Now, if, if you convince us society to ignore something, it's value to appreciates it. Like the, like, like a true value of any, any currency, even gold, right? Like you might, like, you might think gold is worth like, so if I buy gold at $1,000, right? Uh, or whatever, right? I forget it in an ounce or whatever. Um, it's like, that's cool.

Speaker 2:          00:39:19       I think it's worth that. But then the price drop state hundred, I still think it's worth a thousand. I probably still think it's worth 1200. Right. But nobody else does. So it isn't really types of value. Two types of valuation. You just made a pretty important distinction. You said currency and I think you're right. Currency is largely based on faith. Uh, Shell's dollars value is, yeah, money. Food has value because you use it money. Yeah. But then you get into the type of food, right? I like to, I like tomatoes. Would you pay more for a tomato than chicken? It's the value is the cost. The number of currency that it requires to get one is different. But the having a, there's something to be said about as a group, a collective belief in an object as of having value. But there are certain things that can seem to constantly be brought up as a seem to be used as money when currency values fail, that when currency fails gold and silver being a couple of the minerals being a couple of them because they are a limited supply that can't be faked and are kind of useful as commodities.

Speaker 2:          00:40:27       So as currencies developed and failed and developed and failed because they generally fail, uh, currently the average lifetime of a currency is something like 27 years when they failed throughout history. And this goes back to hundreds, if not thousands of years. I think China was the first paper currency. Uh, then people go to commodities, they go to money, which is like gold and silver and stuff like that. So these things have seemed to have intrinsic value for thousands of years. So I don't necessarily, while I agree that there is something to be said about collective faith in an object that's holding value, there is, I think, something more to it when it comes to a distinction between money and currency. Also can I, uh, point out something, um, that I've also noticed from just talking about cryptocurrency to people, it's the fact that your taking them out of a paradigm that they're completely used to them putting them into a paradigm that they're completely not used to because everyone that everyone nowadays, if you want to get, if you want to make a transaction with the bank, you go to the bank if you want to, um, if you want to take, take some money out and make you go to the bank, if you want to organize your taxes, get a tax

Speaker 3:          00:41:34       return and all that, you go to the government. You were always used to going to some sort of central entities, some sort of central organization or some sort of central person to get stuff done. And then now when you shift them into cryptocurrency and saying, yeah, you have to get it done all by yourself and you don't really have to trust anyone. And it all just works. It's really scary for them. And it really makes it hard for people to find the value in that because the fact that you don't need to trust anything, they don't trust that

Speaker 2:          00:42:04       that is, I think very true. It is hard, I think. I think it really, and honestly goes into a little bit of a mob mentality to be honest. Right? Like it's, it's they, I think, I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that they don't see other people doing it. They don't see other people having faith in it. And there a lot of people would adopt this if a ton more people did it. And I understand that [inaudible]

Speaker 3:          00:42:28       and Beck where, uh, we were Bitcoin boom to 20 grand and everyone's like, Oh, I haven't found my bit. Kind of stuff like that. And so that's exactly it. Mob mentality, if everyone's doing it then eventually it'll catch on.

Speaker 2:          00:42:39       gotcha. All right. But that's not why it's value increased. Its Bitcoin's value has been increasing while only 200 people knew about it. Its value was increasing, its value was increasing because it is sound money. My sound money is sound money. You can't get away from that. And the mob mentality was investment in speculation. It wasn't adoption at all. No one started using Bitcoin. Suddenly overstocked started using Bitcoin in 2013 it didn't do jack to the price. The reason people, the price went up then was mob mentality. You know, it can be argued that it started during the bank run with Greece, but where it was actually legitimate adoption where people were like, Oh my God, the government's taking my money. I'm gonna move to this thing. Whereas the government can't confiscate my money. They can't compensate my currency or my gold, and they can't...

Speaker 2:          00:43:24       They can't confiscate my Bitcoin. Literally they cannot do it. So I'll go to Bitcoin. You can argue that adoption wave, but this last one was entirely Bob mentality and that has nothing to do with it. Having value as in money, like, yeah, I don't want it you right, but they weren't using it. I don't think the money, he doesn't have anything to do with use. I don't think the value of it did currency translation. Maybe because as more people leave one currency, there's a limited amount of value and money in the world as people translate their value in money from one currency to another to another object. So from us dollars to yen or to Lira or two, whatever, then that translation changes. But that doesn't mean anything. I own a lot of solar stock, but I don't live in a place where I can actually use solar. It's value when it goes went up because I bought it, right? Because more people want it. That is something to be said. But there is still a fundamental, when you look at stocks for a long time, and a lot of people argue this way. I'm not saying I believe it or not, but there's the fundamental belief of stocks where you only value a stock based on their fundamental production value. Um, one of the, I mean I to make sure I'm clear,

Speaker 4:          00:44:32       right? Like I'm also playing the devil's advocate, right? Like longterm, like a stock might jump up to $400 overnight, but, but when they released their numbers at the end of the quarter or the end of the year, it'll drop. If it doesn't say they're doing anything right. Like I mean like my purchase probably affected it by like half of a cent. Right. Cause it's not a really big stock. It's like, yeah. And there's not a lot of volume for it. Right. But like, um, yeah it's, it's but, but in that moment there, there is, there is value. There is, there is an increase in value when when more people want something regardless if it's adoption or just I want it. Right. You're talking about supply and demand basically. Yeah. Not basically. Yeah. That's what I'm, that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 3:          00:45:12       Um, you, you're trying to draw the distinction between the intrinsic value and exchange value. Cause um, you have the language of value, which is more what Jringo goes talking about. And then we have the exchange value. You go into a website and see how much the exchange rate between two things are according to a particular market with supply. And demand and certain goblin poppers talking about, and the layman person will look at the website, but the good investible look at the intrinsic value. And I'm about to go aside, just like to end on one thing here. Um, if you look at diamonds, if you look gold, all the rare earth minerals and stuff like that, they will technically, according to our understanding of the universe, they will technically be an unlimited supply of them. All right? You've watched the price of gold plummet as soon as we start mining asteroids, all right? There will only ever be 21 million Bitcoins in existence in the universe, ever. And that's rarity for you, right? And as soon as we can mine gold like that, it will cease to be a money, it becomes something like a currency because we'll be able to control its inflation rate just by mining more just because we have access to it. The only thing is the cost of production of getting it out of the rock. So that, yeah, I agree with you. That's true.

Speaker 5:          00:46:24       You know what I think is valuable is you and the people around you. And, uh, I don't know. I, I think what I explained earlier, finding a loophole owed money, uh, is a very significant understanding. Uh, and uh, I feel, um, I don't know, kind of just deliberate yourself from that and, and uh, focus on other things as a big stuff.

Speaker 3:          00:46:48       I think that's a really good, uh, actual perspective of where value of cryptocurrency comes. It comes from is if I understood correctly, because this is a little hard to understand your through Mike, but basically you said value comes from the people around you and cryptocurrencies are sustained and built around networks and networks or concepts that everyone knows about. They don't know about them in the technical sense usually or in the decentralized organization sense. But when you go through school or go out for a job, everyone tells you to network and people just kind of absorb that without thinking about what it means. Maybe basically just means surround yourself with people that bring value into yourself. Be a little greedy about it. Right? So what

Speaker 2:          00:47:30       cryptocurrencies have done is they've combined social networks with technological networks and created value systems around that. Bitcoin is going to be valuable probably for a while because it has a very large network supporting it. Uh, and it's network of people in the beginning was good and they grew it quickly. They understood how to create a network effect very quickly and then it's created it in such a way that it's sustainable. Uh, hopefully, at least from my opinion, hopefully. Uh, I, I think that's what's going to happen. Hard to say. You can't tell the future about this stuff, but so all these different cryptocurrencies have value based on the size of their network. Whether or not their network will create a Lindy effect, whether or not it will create a network effect. And what type of people do they bring into their network? What type of organizations that bring into the network, what type of developments do they bring in? How does the network experiment with technology and social organization and stuff like that. So cryptos have taken what Foxify I just described, which is value comes from the people around you and made it into a physical thing, uh, of value. I hope that's what you said. Otherwise that was a ramble. That's not gonna make any sense

Speaker 5:          00:48:41       while, uh, you know, what also matters is the moment too. So your value, um, does change from moment to moment. Uh, even if it's very subtle. Um, yeah, like it's like I said this once technology comes about, I think, ah, I think this could be done in real time.

Speaker 2:          00:48:57       Small, small devil's advocate little thing. Um, yeah. Doesn't gold have a really short half life now that's not at all. A major aspect of money is that it does not, each unit is worth the same and that its value does not decrease over time. So it currency, the main thing that, uh, governments and, uh, central banks fight is this inflation rate. All that means is the, the worth of a dollar changes over time rapidly. So it's a really bad money. So they have to manipulate weird things to make it continue to be usable. And you know, they try and make it less, a little, as long as they can, but you just can't do it. Currencies failed all the time. So, um, money is something where the value of it does not change. A unit is always a unit. Uh, it's always worth as much as the unit next to it.

Speaker 2:          00:49:48       Uh, and it, it can be used over a long period of time. So I think that implies that it's value doesn't disintegrate over time. But it is weird. Someone brought up silver earlier in the chat and it's like silver I think is more like physically useful than gold, but it's worth, I think it's just really abundant. I don't know why, but it's, it's exchange value exchange rate. You're not know it's an abundant metal. It's the long and short of it. It could be more useful, but it's just more abundant. Okay. Yeah. Cause I, I remember reading somewhere, it's like we had a point where it's silver was so it just costs more to mine it. So we just stopped mining it because you could get it from the, the dredge of your other mines. Like you're mining copper and it's like there's some silver in that, that wastewater, let's get some silver out of it.

Speaker 6:          00:50:35       Well, don't forget the, uh, William Jennings Bryan, you know, cross of gold speech. I mean, silver used to be a gold that has his problems as a currency mainly because it's deflationary. So if you're a debtor, it costs you more, uh, to, to pay your debts over time if your currency is backed by gold. And one of their solutions back in the day was making silver, uh, bullion that could be used to back currency. So yeah, is abundant and that's why it's cheap.

Speaker 2:          00:51:03       Gotcha. Did, I can't believe you didn't talk about this at all today cause we're wrapping up soon. But, um, we didn't talk about how the dollar, the currency used to be backed by gold, the money, and it was sustainable for a long time and still they started breaking away from that in the early 19 hundreds and creating a whole debt system where there's, they didn't have enough gold. And then there was a bank run on the, essentially on the U S dollar and all these governments started asking for gold and to exchange for the dollars and the government couldn't do it. So eventually they created Brentwoods or they had Brentwoods and broken away. That was a pretty pivotal part in the transition from money to currency. Huh. And I want to talk about that before we go.

Speaker 6:          00:51:41       Hmm. I recommended a book to you guys if you guys want to see how, um, if you guys want to read about how like the, the modern money system works. Um, everyone, anyone remember who Timothy Geithner was?

Speaker 7:          00:51:54       Yes.

Speaker 6:          00:51:55       Okay. Yeah, he wrote a memoir called Stress Test, which I bought as a joke cause he's the most, what is the most hated and treasury secretary ever. And uh, it's, it's funny because, um, I bought it as a joke and it is kind of funny just how out of touch he still is, but he does a really, really good a job, a bad job of explaining, you know, how, how all of this works behind the scenes. No notation for you.

Speaker 2:          00:52:22       Sleep brings up a pretty good question here. Uh, is there such a thing as debt and scientific world? Can we give a credit debt system for research? I think it's, go ahead.

Speaker 7:          00:52:30       No, I was going to say, I was going to ask for a clarification on that question because I don't know what that but what I mean like you can be informally indebted to someone who helps you or a, you know, you might publish a paper with someone and then you know, you don't know whose name to put first or something. And so you say, okay, you know, we're going to publish two papers, you know, person, a person A's name, we'll go first on this one per person, B's name will go on this first, on the second one or something like that. Um, but, uh, I mean there's also, you know, like, you know, this lab, you know, analyze something for this other lab and so you know what their name goes on the paper because of that. Uh, even though they weren't, you know, heavily involved in the actual research. Uh, I mean, so there's like a concept of that, but I'm not sure if that's what you meant Terrance Lee. Like, but I mean that's so, but I can think of the top of my head.

Speaker 8:          00:53:26       Yeah, that's kind of similar I guess. Like, if we're able to say for example, use Gridcoin to pay for research and then they would be in debt to us to put us to put great coin onto their paper. Is that kind of like a, that's kind of like buying value and also kind of like a credit, right?

Speaker 2:          00:53:45       Oh yeah. Sorry.

Speaker 8:          00:53:48       Yeah, I think that's why you were going after as well. So basically, um, the value we transfer some value that they'd required use. So that's a, that's a credit, right. And they would, you know, eventually get the payback, I guess. That's is that there's no, there's no real thing that enforces this, but it is kind of, uh, like a gentlemen honored thing, I guess.

Speaker 2:          00:54:15       Well, the original contract was between, of modern science, uh, was between governments and institutions and universities where the, how they, how, how far back are you down in terms of the science and probably not as strong as you're thinking. That's a very, very recent phenomenon in science. I mean, even in the 19th century, I would say that that wasn't exactly true. So the contract was that, uh, the government would give land to a university or a church maybe, and then the, uh, science would belong to the people that gave them the land. Uh, so that is a system of debt that kind of built the world we live in now, but we've gotten, gotten so, uh, ownership oriented. I think that, uh, the contract, it doesn't really matter anymore. We have to force institutions to open access their stuff. We have to, I mean, we don't have to do anything.

Speaker 2:          00:55:13       We just don't fight against, uh, companies that use public funds to develop translational products and then make massive profit off of it and don't give it to the public. We have people that take insulin, which was given to the public for free essentially, and then profit massively off of it with no acknowledgement of the debt that you're talking about. The debt to past generations, the debt to pass scientists to those who came before that from whose work is the foundation for everything that has come after it. There is no such thing as a novel like discovery in my mind. You have to acknowledge the debt that you owe to everyone in the scientific community that came before you. You don't just all of a sudden build a rocket ship like hundreds of years of research went into that. So bringing it into a practical realm, I think there is a way to build a debt system that you're talking about.

Speaker 2:          00:56:07       But we've tried this before, I think with patents and copyrights and stuff like that where it's like, alright, we acknowledge that this person did this thing and they own the rights to it for a certain amount of time. That screwed up miserably. You know, copyright and patent system does not work well. So we have to find a way to digitize that system and build a open debt system, an open system of science that can operate well and sustainable and with money back in it and money that operates both as a currency, as a unit of value.

Speaker 8:          00:56:44       It's enforcement problem, right? Like if there's nobody enforcing this thing, this whole thing,

Speaker 2:          00:56:50       it's an education problem in my opinion. Every everything boils down to is an education problem, but I see how it is also an enforcement problem, but you can build, enforcement enforcement will generally get corrupt after a couple of decades. Okay. Done with that. Now if we have to build a whole new system again, why not educate people to the base layers of how things work? Like,

Speaker 7:          00:57:10       yeah. Um, so yeah, just giving, um, going back a bit, giving a kind of practical use case, what you're saying terencelee. Um, yeah, I've suggested that I have researched that different from the stuff that I've been posting about on steam at recently. I mean, not recently, but regarding changing our incentive structure. So totally different from that. But I have research that would actually pertain to blink and good coin that, um, if, uh, I had funding, you know, I, I'm sure I could convince one of my professors to join me in doing, um, research on this, uh, and it could get published in a journal and we would most certainly give credit to, uh, to, you know, the gridcoin community if that happened. The problem is that we don't have that amount of good coin in the foundation. And so it has to come from private individuals. And that goes back to the, you know, funding problem that um, we talks about a few episodes ago and Jringo them mentioned at the beginning of this episode. Um, so yeah, we can do it. I mean we can do it right now. I have a real like substantial research project that I'm 100% confident could get published, but you know, we need funding.

Speaker 8:          00:58:21       I guess we could use the outreach effort to kind of can we, is this, is this an idea that that could coin community is comfortable with like the go out and talk to researchers and say we can try to fund you somehow, but you have to use Gridcoin and also, uh, the give credit to the Gridcoin community.

Speaker 7:          00:58:43       People have been suggesting that for a while already. Nobody's actually gone out and done it. And the, it goes back to all of those, I mean it really goes back to the funding problem, I think at the root of it. Like, what we would really need to get that done is our use case. Like it just needs to happen. Somebody needs to do with it. Um, so yeah, I you do.

Speaker 2:          00:59:05       So if you go back to the original white paper and you've go back to one of the drafts, I don't know why either of you would remember this, but there was something called the grid coin grants, which is still under pretty active development. Uh, it's a complex system though where you have to have people come in and come for grants, apply for grants. Then how do you vet them? How do you vet the science? They want to do a, how do you particularly vet them in a community that is been adverse to this sort of thing in the past? Uh, I think it is something that could be done. But again, it's the replacement of the grant system. What you're doing is building a grant system. So we need to find people who are very familiar with the grant system with decades and decades of experience within the grant system, particularly giving grants.

Speaker 2:          00:59:48       And then we need to ask them what the problems were along the way. Where can we fill a niche? Um, we're not going to be competing with NSF. We're not gonna be competing with NIH, though people from those organizations can bring immense experience to building this sort of system. But what would we be doing? We would be specifically targeting smaller researchers, researchers who do not have a project that's large enough to get to NIH or NSF to compete with the big boys, but they can compete with [inaudible]. You'd need a small amount of funds, a BOINC project. I've talked about this almost every week for, since I've been here, except for the last two weeks. That's verified size. Taking a dress is primarily about building a system that will allow BOINC projects to get funded, would have been a great way to start a grant system.

Speaker 2:          01:00:33       Right? You have these very tiny projects that don't require a lot of startup funding. They just ask for a couple, 100,000 GRC and they fund it with the stake rewards. That's it. That's all you need. So I think there are people thinking about how to build this and I think there are some folks with experience behind. So if people have a specific thing they want to go to, I think they should be talking about it openly and not about theories and things they could do. But I think they should have physical science. They want to get funded and examples of it. So to answer your question Terrance Lee, at a base level, yes, it's something you could do. I don't know if the community will like it, but I think they could eventually, and it's been a long time coming. You saying that it's the only be hard, something like physical sciences that we should be funding.

Speaker 2:          01:01:18       What was that at the end you were saying if someone wants to fund science, I mean it's something a lot of people have talked about for a long time. You're right. Some people have been building it for a long time, uh, but the money is gonna just no system is going to be built without a proof of concept gamma top. It talks about this lot. So I just built a proof of concept so we could move this forward a little bit. If someone else wants to build a proof of concept, come with physicals, research that they want to do and avoid project they want to fund and you know, write a nice thing about it so that people can look at it who are experienced in this sort of stuff and find like Michael Jensen talks about lat, find it within themselves to trust this person with money to go build this project. And then if that person can find it within themselves to trust a stranger on the internet, then you can probably convince a community to do it so it's not stop thinking about it. Start doing it. That's what I'm saying. I don't care what kind of science is actually funded, but to build the system that you need a proof of concept, someone should probably come up with a proof of concept besides me

Speaker 7:          01:02:25       generally telling me to just do it. Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 2:          01:02:27       If you have a research project and do it?

Speaker 7:          01:02:29       Well, I mean, we, the, the reason I haven't suggested it is because of the difficulty of even getting the, the research that I've already been doing. Uh, you know, uh, getting any traction as that's the main reason. Um, so it's like, I mean, if anything though, stuff I've already been doing is a proof of it was, is an attempt at a proof of concept in the sense it's failed because it doesn't have enough community support. Um, that's why I'm skeptical. And that by the way, that extends also to, you know, the other funding issues we have. So that's why I'm skeptical of, and by the way, I have started, you know, doing some of the research necessary for that particular project. I could, I do have a research proposal. Right. Um, but, uh, it's just if this, if the kind of very kind of, in my opinion, very critical stuff that I've already been doing isn't getting enough traction, um, that, uh, concerns me. Uh, uh, you know, what, will this, you know, much more kind of sophisticated, uh, research, uh, what kind of trouble will it, will it have like that that's, that's the concern,

Speaker 2:          01:03:33       right? Don't jump into the most sophisticated research approved. Proof of concept I'm putting out is a very simple website. Um, and it says in the proposal, this is here to prove that we can fund a BOINC project like it's very clear about that. So, but I'm not building a BOINC project off the bat. I don't know how to build a BOINC project that would require me to get a team of people on board to build a BOINC project. I know how to do content design. So that's what I'm doing. Start simple, go from there and prove that this system can work. So if you just jumped into its most sophisticated research project, it probably won't work well. Uh, think of something simple.

Speaker 7:          01:04:11       Uh, no it's not, it's not that sophisticated. It's that the, it's first of all, it's not a point project. It's, it's uh, uh, you know, math. But, uh, it doesn't require any computations, but it would, it's, it applies specifically to gridcoin and too BOINC. Um, but yeah, so I mean I wouldn't have, first of all, I wouldn't get hung up on it being specifically a BOINC project. I don't think that's, you know, critical especially for our proof of concept. Um, uh, cause I don't think it makes sense to limit the options you have available. Um, but you know, um, uh, let's see what happens with the website. I mean, uh, you know, we'll see.

Speaker 2:          01:04:48       Yeah. I hope it gets funded. But let's wrap up with how much, how much, sorry, just have you ever have you, have you, uh, petitioned the community for funding for your specific research project?

Speaker 7:          01:05:00       Um, which one? The one I'm like theoretically talking about or the one I've already been doing. Theoretically we're either no a, in both cases if effectively, no. Like I did post a like donation, like if you want to send me donations, send it here. I'm like one of my, I think on my last steemit at post, uh, but beyond that I haven't actually petitioned. And it's particularly because, um, the, the devs aren't even getting, or some of the Deb's are, devs are hesitant or even pulling money out of the foundation. So that just makes me so, uh, so frankly skeptical. That's, that's really my concern. Um, and uh, you know, I mean obviously if I came out with a real proposal, then, you know, I would use the, you know, my real name and I would, uh, um, you know, obviously my, my professor knows what he's doing.

Speaker 7:          01:05:50       Um, so, you know, I'd have some legitimacy in that sense. I'd probably end up doing most of the research. Um, she'd probably be guiding me. Um, but yeah, I mean, again, my ultimate concern comes down to I guess with the, uh, yeah. One is, you know, the fact that the devs aren't even getting paid. So if, and by the way, it'd be agreed, I think when we, we were talking originally about, uh, paying devs and talking about the rate of pay, we agreed that foundation money, um, if we're going to be paying people, it would only be for, um, development. Um, and people aren't even taking out money for that. So the idea of funding theoretical research just seems like such a daunting, you know, uphill task in this community. And that's like, it's, it's a, it's concerning that, you know, not, that's not, that's to say I don't want to do it. I really want to do it, but it's, yeah, it's, I mean it's, it's, you know, I've, I've gotten a ton of pushback on the, on the stuff I've been suggesting so far, so I have no, I have no idea. I, you know, what would happen to this.

Speaker 2:          01:06:54       Yeah. But in another 12 to 16 months, totally 18 months and it might be something, a system going by then? But i see what you're saying, like the, just getting funds from the foundation is not the way to do it. Uh, if we need to build a system to fund this stuff and that is part of the value of the network to wrap, start wrapping this up and then continue this in the after party, um, that, that sort of system, the ability to fund science through and research through a protocol directly through a protocol, I wish Hownix was still here for that, uh, to that, that's a representation of value. So that would make this network different from, uh, the other networks. It would be something that sets us apart. Uh, we happened to be built on top of one of the largest research networks in the world called [inaudible].

Speaker 2:          01:07:39       And so we can kind of have a little bit of a headstart here, but the, that concept, uh, I think is where our value will come from and would that value because we're, that, that's where the blockchain value comes from. And then in order to, uh, use that blockchain, you have to use the currency and the money printed by that blockchain called gridcoin called GRC. And that is another part of value for cryptocurrency, which we didn't talk about, which is utility. On the blockchain, which they are part of. Uh, so that is where, uh, that is our value tree from the value science and research, the ability to fund it, the ability to drive it forward through our giant computation network. Uh, and who knows what else we'll be able to do with our blockchain. Maybe the ability to vet peer reviewed articles, the ability to build reputation on our blockchain as a scientist because we're a science based network.

Speaker 2:          01:08:28       So that's our value represented by represented by a money which is controlled by a protocol with a predictable inflation rate that can't just be changed every six weeks by eight people sitting in a room and saying, Hey, let's cut 25 basis points off. So there's the money part and being that money, being able to use as a means of transactions for goods and services as a currency, being able to be used as a tool. So we program value into the blockchain, which creates a money dash currency that is pretty cool, I think. And every network is doing it. Every sustainable and developing network is doing. There are thousands of blockchains, so can't say everyone. Uh, so yeah, this is, that is why we want to do cryptocurrency, because right now those things are all separate from one another. You have the U S dollar is the currency you have faced in the U S government as the money, which is really weird.

Speaker 2:          01:09:24       That used to be gold, that used to be an actual money. And then the value system is all spread all over the place. The currency is very separate from the money. And now with blockchain and cryptocurrencies, all three of those are very, very intertwined. And when you change one, you affect the other. It's very, uh, dare I say, it's very beautiful. So that will wrap up part two of the why crypto series. Uh, we have a couple more of these. Uh, I don't know which one we'll be doing next week, but if we don't think of a gridcoin specific topic, if there's no development or anything like that, we'll probably be doing another wide crypto series. So yeah, come check that out. 8:00 PM EDT on the grid coin discord server. Thursday the arena October net. No, Thursday's September 27th Oh Galvin. Are you going to be here next week? I will Wookiee not the week after ooky Gavin's going through a major life event, guys, it's very exciting for everyone.

Speaker 1:          01:10:19       1 millionth group GRC, i'm holding the party on topic alignment. It's a huge thing. Then have your own bite. It just me. No one else