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##mtgox-talk 2014-04-25 UTC+7

SuSEno Apr 25th, 2014 2,629 Never
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  4. The following chatlog happened at ##mtgox-talk IRC channel at freenode on 2014-04-25 UTC+7
  5. I, Aditya Suseno (a.k.a SuSEno) PGP signed the following chat log:
  7. (08:20:54 PM) Lao_Ban_: Hey everyone
  8. (08:20:59 PM) Mantrid: sup
  9. (08:21:01 PM) scalability-junk: They rejected the first plan. Not to say they reject the next one.
  10. (08:21:07 PM) Hugo2: Hi Lao_Ban_
  11. (08:21:12 PM) Lao_Ban_: depends on what the next plan contains
  12. (08:21:16 PM) scalability-junk: Lao_Ban_: any news? especially on the second bidder?
  13. (08:21:25 PM) Hugo2: Lao_Ban_, we are a bit lost about current situation, can you update? do you have time?
  14. (08:21:26 PM) Lao_Ban_: as from Sun Lot, have we heard anything about their new plan yet?
  15. (08:21:33 PM) Lao_Ban_: I do have time
  16. (08:21:40 PM) Lao_Ban_: what are your questions
  17. (08:21:52 PM) Aquent: is it over?
  18. (08:21:55 PM) Lao_Ban_: no
  19. (08:21:55 PM) anarchystar: Lao_Ban_: sunlot are crooks right
  20. (08:21:57 PM) EnnnE: sunlot plan: there is a pdf on scribd...
  21. (08:21:59 PM) Aquent: must it be liquidated now?
  22. (08:22:04 PM) Mantrid: Is Mark doing alright?
  23. (08:22:05 PM) Lao_Ban_: it must not be liquicated
  24. (08:22:10 PM) Lao_Ban_: they are crooks by all accounts
  25. (08:22:12 PM) Hugo2: Lao_Ban_, anarchystar has said this morning (hours ago) that the savegox guys are appealing the liquidation resolution, do you know if true?
  26. (08:22:20 PM) Lao_Ban_: just look at their initial plan
  27. (08:22:28 PM) Aquent: does the liquidator legaly have authority to give the 202k btc to someone else other than the individual creditors?
  28. (08:22:29 PM) Lao_Ban_: and the fact we have not seen a new one from them
  29. (08:22:48 PM) Lao_Ban_: yes he does, but he has to sell them to the highest bidder
  30. (08:22:53 PM) anarchystar: tell us how they tried to make this shady backdeal
  31. (08:23:07 PM) Lao_Ban_: thats an interesting story
  32. (08:23:12 PM) Callezetter: i wonder how many % of the creditors that are not verified or want to make claim with an ID... could be quite big?
  33. (08:23:16 PM) Lao_Ban_: we have all seen this plan that was leaked
  34. (08:23:25 PM) Lao_Ban_: notice that it says strictly confidential on it
  35. (08:23:34 PM) Lao_Ban_: someone leaked it bc it was supposed to be secret
  36. (08:23:46 PM) Lao_Ban_: these guys were working with mark from the day gox had issues
  37. (08:23:58 PM) Aquent: when was that?
  38. (08:24:04 PM) Lao_Ban_: from what i know they were trying to buy gox well before all this
  39. (08:24:22 PM) Lao_Ban_: when the plan leaked and received bad press
  40. (08:24:24 PM) Lao_Ban_: they called me
  41. (08:24:26 PM) Lao_Ban_: and we met
  42. (08:24:33 PM) Lao_Ban_: they told me is was a mistranslation
  43. (08:24:37 PM) anarchystar: lol
  44. (08:24:44 PM) scalability-junk: Rumor: Then mark told them he had huge amounts of btc missing and they planned for sunlot to buy most of them up cheap from customers, with a failing story etc. pp
  45. (08:24:45 PM) scalability-junk: :D
  46. (08:24:45 PM) esse-: haha
  47. (08:24:49 PM) Lao_Ban_: which could not be the case
  48. (08:25:22 PM) Lao_Ban_: anything is possible, these guys are insiders
  49. (08:25:35 PM) Lao_Ban_: this is why their plan was so out of touch with the community
  50. (08:25:43 PM) Lao_Ban_: while we were here dealing with the issues first handf
  51. (08:25:57 PM) Lao_Ban_: they were in a smoke filled room with MK figuring out how to profit from our misery
  52. (08:26:15 PM) scalability-junk: Lao_Ban_: so what about the second group? Prior experience, not that shady, community based... or is that just a rumor?
  53. (08:26:19 PM) Lao_Ban_: the only reason we are getting a new plan from them is because the old one was leaked
  54. (08:26:29 PM) Lao_Ban_: The second group is OkCoin
  55. (08:26:30 PM) Hugo2: Lao_Ban_, one thing I dont get is what is MK getting out of sidding with these guys?
  56. (08:26:38 PM) Lao_Ban_: I can announce this today
  57. (08:26:48 PM) Hugo2: OkCoin the chinese exchange?
  58. (08:26:50 PM) Lao_Ban_: lawyers were just retained in Tokyo
  59. (08:26:52 PM) Lao_Ban_: yes
  60. (08:26:56 PM) Mantrid: So you are saying that Mark is not a good honest man?
  61. (08:27:00 PM) Aquent: so whats the plan now?
  62. (08:27:02 PM) anarchystar: 15:25:31 <Lao_Ban_> they were in a smoke filled room with MK figuring out how to profit from our misery -> lol sounds like a movie scene
  63. (08:27:03 PM) Lao_Ban_: there will be a push for them to sponsor a plan
  64. (08:27:18 PM) esse-: really.. thats kinda neat
  65. (08:27:31 PM) anarchystar: okcoin is solid.. i will back that
  66. (08:27:37 PM) esse-: have you been in contact with OKCoin Lao_Ban_?
  67. (08:27:42 PM) Lao_Ban_: yes
  68. (08:27:59 PM) Lao_Ban_: i have been talking to them for a couple weeks, they are creditors
  69. (08:28:02 PM) Aquent: what do they plan to do now?
  70. (08:28:08 PM) Mantrid: What about the news today, they might back off now?
  71. (08:28:12 PM) Lao_Ban_: the CEO MingXing (Star) Xu is a creditor of Gox
  72. (08:28:15 PM) Starduster: and what a timing with bans in china for okcoin
  73. (08:28:23 PM) Lao_Ban_: this is good for them
  74. (08:28:26 PM) esse-: Lao_Ban_, creditor in the sense of having coins with gox?
  75. (08:28:30 PM) Lao_Ban_: this is partly why it makes sense
  76. (08:28:31 PM) esse-: or an investor
  77. (08:28:33 PM) Lao_Ban_: esse-: yes
  78. (08:28:34 PM) scalability-junk: anarchystar> okcoin is solid.. i will back that <-- I would probably second that
  79. (08:28:40 PM) Lao_Ban_: he had a few hunded coins there
  80. (08:28:54 PM) Lao_Ban_: same with everyone else from OkCoin that I have talked to here
  81. (08:29:00 PM) esse-: well this is good news
  82. (08:29:11 PM) esse-: so are they formulating a plan atm?
  83. (08:29:26 PM) Lao_Ban_: yes
  84. (08:29:34 PM) Lao_Ban_: I can give you the basics of it
  85. (08:29:37 PM) scalability-junk: Crowdfunding for outbidding sunlot... :D
  86. (08:29:40 PM) Lao_Ban_: debt equity swap
  87. (08:29:43 PM) Hugo2: <esse-> well this is good news <- first real good news in a long time
  88. (08:29:52 PM) Lao_Ban_: 49% go to creditors
  89. (08:30:03 PM) scalability-junk: Lao_Ban_: payout of 20% of the assets?
  90. (08:30:05 PM) Lao_Ban_: the remaining assets get put into accounts and are available when the exchange opens
  91. (08:30:13 PM) anarchystar: nice
  92. (08:30:16 PM) Mantrid: I really question how Okcon can be interested, given that PBOC really wants to shut down btc in china completely
  93. (08:30:18 PM) scalability-junk: what about the profit issue?
  94. (08:30:19 PM) Lao_Ban_: you can withdraw them as fast as technically allowable
  95. (08:30:36 PM) anarchystar: Mantrid: maybe they want to move to japan :)
  96. (08:30:45 PM) anarchystar: they have both markets though.. china and western
  97. (08:30:45 PM) esse-: ~
  98. (08:30:45 PM) Lao_Ban_: they are going to put up $1M of cash for now and sell other shares to raise more capital as needed
  99. (08:30:46 PM) Lao_Ban_: but
  100. (08:30:47 PM) anarchystar: could be huge
  101. (08:30:49 PM) scalability-junk: btc as btc and fiat as fiat? how is it determined?
  102. (08:30:54 PM) Lao_Ban_: resources can be provided aside from cash
  103. (08:30:56 PM) b4epoche: For people with fiat currency at Gox, who will that be handled?
  104. (08:31:02 PM) Lao_Ban_: and technology can be licensed
  105. (08:31:10 PM) Lao_Ban_: as for the bitcoin/fiat issue
  106. (08:31:16 PM) Lao_Ban_: i was going to propose this
  107. (08:31:16 PM) anarchystar: i will buy some shares
  108. (08:31:30 PM) Lao_Ban_: take the average price of a bitcoin from jan 31 to now and use that
  109. (08:31:30 PM) anarchystar: can i swap my debt for shares?
  110. (08:31:38 PM) anarchystar: 5 million? ;)
  111. (08:31:55 PM) Lao_Ban_: anarchystar: I will have to ask Xu, but I am pretty sure this will be okay
  112. (08:32:02 PM) Lao_Ban_: I will back it for sure
  113. (08:32:11 PM) b4epoche: I sold my BTC (on Gox) before they went down and only had fiat there
  114. (08:32:29 PM) Hugo2: Lao_Ban_, again, thanks for your time, for the people who can not be there, you are helping a lot
  115. (08:32:37 PM) Lao_Ban_: there will be people who had fiat only an btc only, the big issue is how to value bitcoin
  116. (08:32:49 PM) Lao_Ban_: Hugo2: thanks man, its my pleasure to be a part of this
  117. (08:32:52 PM) Aquent: why not just return them as btc
  118. (08:32:56 PM) b4epoche: Lao_Ban_: gotcha
  119. (08:33:20 PM) Lao_Ban_: there is not an exact ratio of btc/fiat to users owed btc/fiat
  120. (08:33:28 PM) Lao_Ban_: if that makes sense
  121. (08:33:30 PM) Lao_Ban_: also
  122. (08:33:35 PM) b4epoche: I'd obviously love to get my (fiat) money out...
  123. (08:33:38 PM) Lao_Ban_: we need to determine who gets what percentage of shares
  124. (08:33:52 PM) Lao_Ban_: so bitcoin needs a value on it for the shares
  125. (08:33:53 PM) Aquent: you can treat them as separate
  126. (08:34:03 PM) Aquent: btc balances get % of btc assets
  127. (08:34:09 PM) Aquent: fiat balances get % of fiat assets
  128. (08:34:24 PM) Aquent: ohh yeah for the shares
  129. (08:34:28 PM) b4epoche: wouldn't that be bad for btc holders?
  130. (08:34:34 PM) anarchystar: Lao_Ban_: will okcoin cooperate with community to release all info on hack? like where the btc got sent etc? i think with croud effort we can find out
  131. (08:34:43 PM) b4epoche: I know they lost fiat, but didn't they lose more btc?
  132. (08:35:20 PM) Hugo2: b4epoche, yes
  133. (08:35:33 PM) Lao_Ban_: anarchystar: yes they will.  The Chinese I have spoken with on that side have been very concerned about this
  134. (08:35:43 PM) Lao_Ban_: the first thing that has to happen is an audit
  135. (08:35:52 PM) esse-: Lao_Ban_, do they have to submit this proposal before tuesday? that was the deadline if i recall right
  136. (08:36:03 PM) Lao_Ban_: there is no deadline
  137. (08:36:11 PM) Lao_Ban_: but we will want a meeting with the supervisor next week
  138. (08:36:20 PM) Lao_Ban_: there is no hard deadline i should say
  139. (08:36:25 PM) esse-: really ok
  140. (08:36:27 PM) Lao_Ban_: from what I understand
  141. (08:36:34 PM) Lao_Ban_: but we still need to move fast
  142. (08:36:46 PM) scalability-junk: Lao_Ban_: alright btc valued at the average price over various markets and since the trouble started... 1 Jan 2014?
  143. (08:37:04 PM) esse-: [12:38] <Dr-G2> but why now, shaded said next tuesday sponsors have to make their plans public
  144. (08:37:08 PM) Lao_Ban_: I would say Jan 31 2014, but it is open for debate for the time being
  145. (08:37:12 PM) esse-: so what is shaded really referring to there..
  146. (08:37:30 PM) Lao_Ban_: i have no idea what he is talking about
  147. (08:37:35 PM) scalability-junk: Lao_Ban_: so what's the exact plan?
  148. (08:37:45 PM) Aquent: shaded ddint know court ordered liquidation yesterday
  149. (08:37:50 PM) anarchystar: shaded also said they have 70% which is bs
  150. (08:37:51 PM) Lao_Ban_: this coming from someone who was paid to come in here after Sun Lot claims he has 70% of our support
  151. (08:37:52 PM) anarchystar: its all bs
  152. (08:38:01 PM) Aquent: he thought there would be another hearing next week where liquidation or rehab is decidd
  153. (08:38:07 PM) scalability-junk: use all btc and give them pro rata to btc holders, use fiat assets and give them pro rata to fiat holders
  154. (08:38:08 PM) esse-: ok I will just wipe everything shaded has said from my memory and star afresh
  155. (08:38:16 PM) Aquent: i dont know how gox managed to get  abrankruptcy hearing without any creditor being notified
  156. (08:38:37 PM) scalability-junk: the remaining debt of btc and fiat will then be valued in fiat and swapped pro rata (fiat value) for shares of the 49%
  157. (08:38:42 PM) Aquent: isnt that some procedural irregularity?
  158. (08:39:11 PM) Lao_Ban_: you guys get the remaining assets funded to your account, get shares in the new company totaling 49%
  159. (08:39:21 PM) Lao_Ban_: in exchange for the existing debt
  160. (08:39:34 PM) scalability-junk: yeah but remaining assets... is open for debate
  161. (08:39:45 PM) Aquent: how would okcoin get the assets from the liquidator?
  162. (08:39:46 PM) anarchystar: insider trading you mean scalability-junk ?
  163. (08:39:47 PM) scalability-junk: but btc pro rata for btc and same for fiat as I said?
  164. (08:39:51 PM) Callezetter: and % of the profit or? Can we trade the shares?
  165. (08:39:51 PM) Mantrid: can shares be traded between the accounts?
  166. (08:39:53 PM) Lao_Ban_: OkCoin has also talked about giving an annual dividend for the first few years of 10%, but we have not decided 100%
  167. (08:40:00 PM) samson_: I would have thought there is a procedure error there somewhere. Often a creditor will buy out someone who's going bankrupt
  168. (08:40:13 PM) Lao_Ban_: there may be more there to discuss, but they we want to do that
  169. (08:40:27 PM) scalability-junk: anarchystar: if you are referring to my rumor about mark and sunlot plotting to buy up cheap virtual coins, yes insider trading.
  170. (08:40:41 PM) anarchystar: scalability-junk: yes im also very worried about that
  171. (08:40:56 PM) anarchystar: scalability-junk: we need to look at all the big traders in the last days/weeks
  172. (08:41:06 PM) Lao_Ban_: i agree one hundred percent there
  173. (08:41:16 PM) scalability-junk: Lao_Ban_: if there is evidence of insidertrading I would suggest freezing these accounts aka sunlot, mark (rumor)
  174. (08:41:17 PM) samson_: In a hostile takeover scenario of a private company a creditor could lure a company into debt only to have them liquidated and buy them from the administrator - anything's possible
  175. (08:41:30 PM) anarchystar: obviously i would never trust these savegox guys who are the actual insiders to do that.. lol
  176. (08:41:34 PM) anarchystar: but okcoin.. sure
  177. (08:41:51 PM) esse-: savegox .. or the worlds biggest exchange :D
  178. (08:41:52 PM) esse-: hmm
  179. (08:41:54 PM) Lao_Ban_: think about if the savegox guys had their way where we would be
  180. (08:41:54 PM) anarchystar: no connection to mark afaik
  181. (08:42:13 PM) anarchystar: mtgox 2.0 (even worse)
  182. (08:42:27 PM) samson_: php v6, much bettern than php5
  183. (08:42:30 PM) scalability-junk: Lao_Ban_: so I would probably push to not use % of profits for dividend. (unreliable as hell) probably more worthwhile to say 1-5% of fees/etc.
  184. (08:42:31 PM) Lao_Ban_: theyd have 40M USD or so of our money to experimen with an exchange and no obligation to pay us back for years, our money locked up for a year
  185. (08:42:31 PM) samson_: lol
  186. (08:42:41 PM) scalability-junk: profit can go back into equity wealth
  187. (08:43:02 PM) Lao_Ban_: scalability-junk: I dont disagree, we want to make sure people get compensated aside from an increase in share price
  188. (08:43:21 PM) Lao_Ban_: but obv one way to get money is to sell your shares
  189. (08:43:28 PM) Lao_Ban_: contact a stock broker
  190. (08:43:35 PM) Lao_Ban_: he will take ten percent and will find a buyer
  191. (08:43:46 PM) Lao_Ban_: or you can probably find someone on irc to buy them, or reddit
  192. (08:43:51 PM) zewelor: anarchystar: are there anywhere on the www leaked data from gox ? I remember some strange withdraws on one big acscount after gox stopped withdraws, maybe thats the account to look at ...
  193. (08:43:52 PM) scalability-junk: Lao_Ban_: that's expensive for small holders. % of fees is a much better solution for them.
  194. (08:44:00 PM) Lao_Ban_: ill handle the paperwork for a small fee :-D
  195. (08:44:18 PM) Aquent: or maybe the new exchange can offer share buying selling service too? or someone else set up an exchange for selling buying gox shares if legal
  196. (08:44:19 PM) zewelor: Lao_Ban_: maybe just make tradeable pair on new exchange ?
  197. (08:44:21 PM) Mantrid: what do you think will happen to ppl who have goxcoin on bitcoinbuildder
  198. (08:44:29 PM) Lao_Ban_: we cant offer share buying or selling yet
  199. (08:44:33 PM) Lao_Ban_: regulation is heavy
  200. (08:44:43 PM) Lao_Ban_: but no reason why you cant sell on the private market
  201. (08:45:16 PM) zerwas: Mantrid: how many goxcoins are in the hand of bitcoinbuilder?
  202. (08:45:25 PM) Aquent: in regards to this 202k btc - what hapens now? Liquidator has to return them to individual creditors or can he give em to okcoin to distribute?
  203. (08:45:27 PM) Lao_Ban_: Mantrid: that is a good question.  We will have to await the audit results, but obv we want to untangle that mess and cash people out
  204. (08:45:30 PM) anarchystar: zewelor: besides what was leaked for pre 2014 i have no idea
  205. (08:45:37 PM) zewelor: Lao_Ban_: anyway looks like you are brining great news
  206. (08:45:39 PM) Mantrid: i would think Josh has something like 5-10k in his account
  207. (08:45:52 PM) Lao_Ban_: Aquent: if he accepts OkCoin's plan, he would give them to OkCoin for us
  208. (08:46:02 PM) zewelor: anarchystar: i mean that last leak, there was some www website where everything was parsed nicely
  209. (08:46:02 PM) Lao_Ban_: otherwise, they will be sold to the highest bidder
  210. (08:46:09 PM) Aquent: he can legaly to dthat?
  211. (08:46:15 PM) Lao_Ban_: Aquent: yes
  212. (08:46:19 PM) zewelor: and there was some account with withdraws up to 10th of march something like that
  213. (08:46:23 PM) zewelor: weird
  214. (08:46:35 PM) anarchystar: zewelor: yes thats very wierd.. worth looking into
  215. (08:46:36 PM) Lao_Ban_: zewlor: I am trying
  216. (08:46:46 PM) scalability-junk: Lao_Ban_: so we have btc assets payed pro rata, fiat assets payed pro rata, remaining debt will be valued at average coin price since Jan 1 2014 and swaped with equity (49%). Repayed assets will be open for withdrawal instantly. Additionally a dividend of 2-5% of fees/income could be payed as a dividend directly into the accounts holding the equity.
  217. (08:46:46 PM) scalability-junk: Additionally equity prices can rise. Trading equity could be done via brokers or better via the new exchange as virtual tokens (rights for dividends)
  218. (08:46:50 PM) Lao_Ban_: there is stll a lot to do
  219. (08:46:53 PM) zewelor: even if the withdraws didnt went, how would it be possible to make then ? on www withdras were disabled
  220. (08:47:05 PM) zewelor: it was some big account in top 20 afair
  221. (08:47:17 PM) zewelor: but now the webiste with that data is down :\
  222. (08:47:20 PM) scalability-junk: Audit, freeze insidertrading accounts.
  223. (08:47:25 PM) Lao_Ban_: scalability-junk: I do not believe the virtual token idea is legal
  224. (08:48:03 PM) Lao_Ban_: there are enough regulatory hurdles in running a bitcoin exchange, i think that risk would need to be avoided
  225. (08:48:11 PM) scalability-junk: Lao_Ban_: was just a suggestion. But aren't there already legal examples with mastercoin or something similar?
  226. (08:48:19 PM) Lao_Ban_: the issue is this
  227. (08:48:23 PM) Aquent: right well if you meeting with liquidator ask him why creditor meeting is in 3 months rather than say 4 weeks
  228. (08:48:26 PM) Lao_Ban_: rights attach to the token
  229. (08:48:28 PM) Lao_Ban_: making it a security
  230. (08:48:38 PM) Lao_Ban_: if sold on a trading engine
  231. (08:48:42 PM) Lao_Ban_: its a stock market
  232. (08:48:47 PM) Lao_Ban_: regulation out the ass
  233. (08:48:57 PM) Lao_Ban_: its too much for now
  234. (08:49:00 PM) Aquent: I mean we could decide at the creditor meeting for okcoin rehab I guess - so why wait 3 months
  235. (08:49:21 PM) Lao_Ban_: the first step is talking with the Supervisor
  236. (08:49:24 PM) scalability-junk: Lao_Ban_: yeah probably best to enable that in a later stage and push it to a coin backed ipo (dreaming)
  237. (08:49:28 PM) Lao_Ban_: we will do that next week
  238. (08:49:34 PM) anarchystar: if court wont stop bankruptcy we can still approve okcoin taking over for a fair price, as creditors
  239. (08:49:47 PM) Lao_Ban_: scalability-junk: anything is possible down the road if we succeed
  240. (08:49:47 PM) anarchystar: but its in liquidation then
  241. (08:49:50 PM) anarchystar: better than nothing
  242. (08:50:19 PM) Lao_Ban_: we have options, but we are admittedly getting to the game late
  243. (08:50:35 PM) Lao_Ban_: nonetheless, this is a slow process
  244. (08:50:46 PM) Aquent: yeh I'm not sure if this is right - but I think at the creditor meeting creditors can decide to discharge liquidator and appoint okcoin
  245. (08:50:47 PM) anarchystar: id rather have okcoin buy it through bankruptcy (in case its too late for rehab) instead of some other firm who wont give us the 49% etc
  246. (08:50:50 PM) scalability-junk: Lao_Ban_: being to the game late doesn't always matter as history has shown.
  247. (08:50:54 PM) wiz: Lao_Ban_ why didn't you come to my drinking party
  248. (08:50:55 PM) wiz: :(
  249. (08:51:28 PM) Lao_Ban_: wiz: I was busy cuttting a deal with OkCoin
  250. (08:51:48 PM) Lao_Ban_: hopefully next weekend we will have something to celebrate
  251. (08:51:57 PM) scalability-junk: will mark ever receive a dime from selling his shares? Or are his shares worthless and they sort of transferred to creditors?
  252. (08:52:11 PM) Mantrid: worried about Mark?
  253. (08:52:12 PM) Lao_Ban_: mark has 78000 bitcoins
  254. (08:52:18 PM) Lao_Ban_: owned by tibanne on gox
  255. (08:52:26 PM) Lao_Ban_: he is likely the biggest creditor
  256. (08:52:28 PM) wiz: this is a public channel
  257. (08:52:34 PM) wiz: why are you talking about that lol
  258. (08:52:54 PM) Mantrid: why not
  259. (08:52:59 PM) Aquent: anarchystar can sue mark and make him bankrupt :P
  260. (08:53:11 PM) anarchystar: Aquent: yes working on it ;)
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