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  1. wolfBTMToday at 1:23 AM
  2. Will and I were talking more about the GG ban and this is my comment on it. I’m no expert but more opinions could be good, and I think I remember hearing you were into smash so maybe the analogy could help
  3. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/423156222313758743/614253303274012674/image0.png
  4. There’s more context before this, but it’s essentially the conversation had in general
  5.  
  6. AsLanToday at 1:26 AM
  7. Its not really that the character in itself has no counterplay
  8. Its that a particular style of play with the character has little to no counterplay
  9. So to use your analogy with jiggs (although i think shes more similar to fetts than gg)
  10. if the jiggs plays like hbox normally does then there is counterplay to it and you can do things about it
  11.  
  12. wolfBTMToday at 1:27 AM
  13. (The jiggs analogy wasn’t for playstyle and more around power, but ya)
  14.  
  15. AsLanToday at 1:27 AM
  16. its very difficult and takes a lot more skill to beat than the skill it takes to do, but its still counterplay
  17. but if uve watched much of what hbox does
  18. in highstakes matches when hes down he tends to do something called ledge stalling
  19. staying off-stage and repeatedly grabbing the ledge to refresh intangibility frames
  20. there was a recent tournament where he used this to stay in and eventually win a set against wizzroby
  21. *wizzrobe
  22.  
  23. wolfBTMToday at 1:28 AM
  24. I’m familiar with it, and that does have a limit. I don’t think that has a direct analogy for BF2 though in this context
  25. And yeah I saw that. I still follow melee a little
  26.  
  27. AsLanToday at 1:28 AM
  28. the equivalent is a gg camping certain areas of the map
  29. and refusing to close distance or interact with the opponent outside of using centre dashes
  30. then repositioning to another such spot
  31. even then, its not that theres NO counterplay to it, there are things you could plausibly do
  32. but its just the risk reward in those circumstances is so skewed, and the gg is so effectively able to avoid interacting in neutral at all that its degenerative to gameplay
  33.  
  34. wolfBTMToday at 1:30 AM
  35. I mean, if melee community banned jigglypuff then the wizzrobe win wouldn’t exist or mean anything. People only grow and adapt against the dominant meta if they are given the chance to do so.
  36. And these aren’t ridiculously high stakes tournaments anyway.
  37. I don’t even play GG btw
  38.  
  39. AsLanToday at 1:30 AM
  40. well the melee community
  41. has the benefit of being able to implemenbt things like ledge grab limits
  42. which a lot of ppl are calling for atm
  43. and that policy was actually implemented in brawl
  44.  
  45. wolfBTMToday at 1:30 AM
  46. I think most tournaments have them now actually
  47.  
  48. AsLanToday at 1:31 AM
  49. we don't really have an equivalent solution
  50. its too difficult to tell a gg that he can only stay in certain spots too long because its too hard to define and monitor
  51. whereas ledge grab is easily implemented because cliffhangers are tracked by the game
  52.  
  53. wolfBTMToday at 1:31 AM
  54. True but I think that’s begging the question if that camping has the same degree of issues as ledge stalling, and if it is worth banning an entire character for that reason
  55.  
  56. AsLanToday at 1:32 AM
  57. i dont really see where im begging the question, im essentially saying that gg's ability to camp is comparable in terms of generacy to planking on puff, and that unlike melee we dont have a feasible solution to the behaviour itself, so we have to tackle the character
  58. *degeneracy
  59. the natural counter to the camping are gunners
  60. the only character who can have a decent chance is vader
  61.  
  62. wolfBTMToday at 1:34 AM
  63. Is roofcamping officially banned then?
  64.  
  65. AsLanToday at 1:34 AM
  66. no, but the difference is that roofcamping can't be done in a way that prevents counterplay to the same extent that gg can camp
  67. for example
  68. take the big square building in scrim area
  69. if gg sits along the east side of that building
  70. then there is no safe way for an opponent to close distance with him
  71. certainly not on 30 tps
  72. with anyone else this isn't the case
  73. your options are either
  74. pick a cd char like obi or aayla nad go for repeated dashes across the building with centre
  75. and then immediately roll off
  76. which should never get you a kill and doesnt actually get you anywhere
  77. or to pick vader and hope they mess up
  78. also on 30 tps the first strategy isn't even possible really
  79.  
  80. wolfBTMToday at 1:37 AM
  81. Or you could not take a fight in a disadvantaged location
  82.  
  83. AsLanToday at 1:37 AM
  84. ok
  85. then waht happens
  86. if neither of you move
  87.  
  88. wolfBTMToday at 1:37 AM
  89. Game stalls
  90. But the point is, this is a situation where both characters agree to fight there
  91.  
  92. AsLanToday at 1:38 AM
  93. the difference is
  94. with other characters
  95. you cannot place yourself in a position where the opponent cannot feasible choose to fight you
  96. with gg you can
  97. if you ever have a situation like the gg one
  98. your ability to win is conditional on your opponents charity
  99. and their willingness not to employ their best/lamest strategy
  100. even a vader camping the top of crashed ship
  101. isn't able to stop an opponent forcing them off if its played right
  102. also personally
  103. i wudnt care that much if hes allowed either
  104. my matches rarely come down to gg
  105. but there have been past tournaments
  106. where matches have been decided by passive gg vs gg fights on flatgrounjd
  107. and its basically whoever decides to try to close loses
  108. also there are not many ggs
  109. that are capable of playing this way
  110. and even fewer that are inclined to
  111. i couldnt do it if i tried, id get too bored
  112. and i dont care about winning enough too
  113. its also less of an issue when you do 1v1 to score than dm
  114. but its still a problem
  115. its also about the amount of skill it takes to perform it relative to the amount it takes to beat it
  116. which is similar to puff planking
  117.  
  118. wolfBTMToday at 1:44 AM
  119. Okay so if most people don’t do it then why is it banned in a friendly round robin tournament intended to foster player activity?
  120.  
  121. AsLanToday at 1:45 AM
  122. well im not sure that really makes a difference
  123. the tournament isnt any less friendly for it
  124. and if anything lack of gg is likely to make people want to paly more than not
  125.  
  126. wolfBTMToday at 1:46 AM
  127. I think the argument could equally go in the direction that some players may see this as needlessly restrictive and not want to participate
  128.  
  129. AsLanToday at 1:46 AM
  130. i don;t think they'd see it as needless once they had actually experienced it
  131. while these things are meant to be more casual
  132. anyone who has to play against this in a match for 10 minutes is going to stop having fun and is going to see why players would want this to be banned
  133.  
  134. wolfBTMToday at 1:47 AM
  135. I think your argument for banning him in the case of exploiting that strategy is a good one tbh.
  136.  
  137. I don’t think that it necessarily applies to auto banning him any time gunners are disabled because the skill gaps in this game matter so much more than any character advantage right now
  138.  
  139. AsLanToday at 1:48 AM
  140. i think there are istuations and formats
  141. where it might not matter
  142. the problem is we've not come up with a guns off format up till now
  143. that reliably won't come down to gg at a high level
  144. guns off dm is seriously unbalanced because of gg
  145. because so few characters even have a chance against gg even if he chooses not to do this, and if he chooses TO do this then evne vader and aayla are disproportionately likely to lose
  146. so there have been dms that literally come down to gg vs gg
  147. i beleive the only dm soup ever beat sketch in
  148. was one where he got a gigantic streak wiht gg because sketch lost his gg in the mirror
  149. this was the same way will initially was able to beat sketch
  150. and the gg mirror decided the 2016 christmas culling as well i think
  151. or maybe the summer one i dont remember
  152.  
  153. wolfBTMToday at 1:50 AM
  154. Well dm is really snowbally as it is
  155.  
  156. AsLanToday at 1:50 AM
  157. yeah its a pretty flawed mode
  158. in 1v1 to score
  159. it might be better
  160. although the 2016 tournaments were both this format and they came down to it anyway
  161.  
  162. wolfBTMToday at 1:51 AM
  163. It’s hard not to make a flawed mode tbh. Most have their advantages and disadvantages
  164. I developed one that we’ve played a little in the SE crowd that was kinda fun
  165.  
  166. AsLanToday at 1:51 AM
  167. the main issue is the better formats take a lot more effort to make work
  168. one solution ive thought of trying in future
  169. is to employ a different format after a certain point
  170. so for example you could do guns off 1v1 to 15 with gg enabled for the pool stage
  171. and then another format in the elimination stage
  172. although i dont completely like the principle
  173.  
  174. wolfBTMToday at 1:53 AM
  175. I’ve been running a best of 5 to 5.
  176. Basically think about it like smash matches.
  177.  
  178. You do a best of 5 of games to 5. Each time you do a blind pick of the characters you are playing, and you must remain that character for the game to 5.
  179. You can switch characters between the games, but not during, and you cannot play the same character twice
  180. We’ve also done it where you can play the same character twice if you want
  181.  
  182. AsLanToday at 1:53 AM
  183. thats not a bad format
  184.  
  185. wolfBTMToday at 1:53 AM
  186. I think character identity is important. Some people develop a name on certain characters and I think the dm format takes away from that interesting part of fighting games
  187.  
  188. AsLanToday at 1:53 AM
  189. i actually made one pretty similar a while ago
  190. but a bit more complex
  191. the one i had was like tennis
  192. sorta
  193. but basically you could each ban a certain number of characters
  194. the bans would change each "set"
  195. and you'd each have 1 match wide-ban
  196. in each sets you'd play games to 4 points
  197.  
  198. wolfBTMToday at 1:55 AM
  199. I like it.
  200. I’ve tossed around the idea of a ban phase but my issue is that the game has too few characters to instate that imo
  201.  
  202. AsLanToday at 1:55 AM
  203. yeah u have to be careful
  204. the issue with the sticking wiht one character thing
  205. is that assuming its truly blind then you can RNG a big disadvantage if they happen to counterpick you in multiple games
  206. it also doersnt really solve the variety issue
  207. because therea re more than 5 top tier characters
  208.  
  209. wolfBTMToday at 1:57 AM
  210. It was meant more to solve the character identity issue than the variety issue
  211.  
  212. AsLanToday at 1:57 AM
  213. character identtiy is something valuable
  214.  
  215. wolfBTMToday at 1:57 AM
  216. Agreed
  217.  
  218. AsLanToday at 1:57 AM
  219. especially when lots of newer players are playing
  220. because tyhey will tend to paly only a few characters initiall
  221. but really compared to most fighting games
  222.  
  223. wolfBTMToday at 1:57 AM
  224. Like I said that was my issue with the dm format
  225.  
  226. AsLanToday at 1:57 AM
  227. character identity in this is very shallow
  228. there simply aren't enough mecahnics to justify playing only one character
  229. and there are some matchups that are too hard outside of 1-tricking vader, gg or fett
  230.  
  231. wolfBTMToday at 1:59 AM
  232. idk if I quite agree. The number of mechanics themselves is low but most mechanics have multiple degrees of freedom that make them more complex. Sure it isn't smash because the number of moves in smash is much greater, but the movement and camera controls in BF2 add degrees of freedom to most actions that add variability
  233. and anecdotally, character identity does seem to be pretty impactful even at the intermediate level
  234. so it isn't just beginners
  235. People take pride in being the better at a specific character
  236.  
  237. AsLanToday at 2:00 AM
  238. ye-es
  239. but that doesnt mean maining or 1-tricking is viable
  240.  
  241. wolfBTMToday at 2:00 AM
  242. Oh I agree
  243. well... Depends what you mean by "maining"
  244. I think it is definitely possible to prioritize skillset in one character in the game over others, but only playing that character isn't viable
  245.  
  246. AsLanToday at 2:01 AM
  247. i think the reason u can know
  248. that its not worth valueing character identity past a certain point
  249. is that you can have players that play a lot of say, luke or mundi in ffa or casual duels
  250. and then when you put them in a tournament
  251. all yo uwill see is maul
  252. unless they feel like they are playing against a much worse opponent
  253. for example i play a lot of luke
  254.  
  255. wolfBTMToday at 2:02 AM
  256. How much of that is a result of perceived strength and the culture of the community?
  257. I would contest that 90% of players do not have a high enough skill for that to matter.
  258.  
  259. AsLanToday at 2:02 AM
  260. and ive done very well with luke against some very good players in dm's
  261. but i would never pick luke over maul in a competitive match unless i knew there was no way i could  lose
  262. or if i was doing it for another reason like mentality
  263. its jsut not worth it against anyone competent
  264. thats not to say i couldn't win with it
  265. its just to say that it wouldn't be in my best interest to try
  266.  
  267. wolfBTMToday at 2:03 AM
  268. I mean, to lean on the smash analogy again, nobody would've ever picked anything other than spacies vs jiggs until people like wizzy and axe worked a ton on their lower tier characters
  269. Yoshi with amsa
  270. etc
  271. people can make lower tier characters work
  272.  
  273. AsLanToday at 2:04 AM
  274. sure although
  275. there are some very big differences
  276.  
  277. wolfBTMToday at 2:04 AM
  278. and it adds a dimension to the game that doesn't otherwise exist if everyone just focuses on perceived character strength
  279.  
  280. AsLanToday at 2:04 AM
  281. for one thing neither axe nor yoshi have seen very much success vs hbox
  282. and someone like axe would frankly be better off learning fox for the matchup
  283.  
  284. wolfBTMToday at 2:05 AM
  285. Yes, but the point is that it isn't 100% necessary for it and by sticking with their original characters they add more depth to the game community
  286.  
  287. AsLanToday at 2:05 AM
  288. but the main difference is that getting even one character to play at that level takes a far far far greater time investment than it would ofr bf2
  289.  
  290. wolfBTMToday at 2:05 AM
  291. true
  292. that is a good point
  293.  
  294. AsLanToday at 2:05 AM
  295. melee has insane depth
  296. like
  297.  
  298. wolfBTMToday at 2:05 AM
  299. yeah
  300.  
  301. AsLanToday at 2:06 AM
  302. the fundamentals taht all characters share
  303. are actually pretty slim
  304.  
  305. wolfBTMToday at 2:06 AM
  306. it literally has depth with the z axis lol
  307. sorry that was bad
  308.  
  309. AsLanToday at 2:06 AM
  310. lul
  311. there is soooo much to learn
  312. just because of the % system
  313. and because characters have different weights, traction, etc.
  314. completely different movesets
  315.  
  316. wolfBTMToday at 2:07 AM
  317. I'm leaning more on melee for a model of the conceptual end of fighting games in general.
  318. Same thing in street fighter with people playing lower tier characters at a high level
  319. or soul calibur
  320.  
  321. AsLanToday at 2:07 AM
  322. right but to bring it back to the point
  323. if players in melee could just pick up a characte rlike fox for the jiggs matchup and be able to play at the level necessary then i have no doubt most top players would do so against hbox
  324. but it takes an insane amounat of time to be able to do so
  325. in dwbf2 though, this is definitely possible
  326. which is why people do it
  327. im not saying that for sure the weaker characters are objectively weaker
  328. metas can change
  329. but if ur playing to win, then operating within the current meta, its much more prudente to counterpick than try to win with a character you just have more experience on
  330. taht is, once you've played the counterpick enough to be competent with it
  331.  
  332. wolfBTMToday at 2:09 AM
  333. Yeah. I guess my argument is that perceived character strength, while largely based on objective things like frame data and the general abilities of characters, is dynamic based on the skills of different players. If there were a Luke that were good enough to beat all your GGs consistently people would think Luke is the strongest. Is that possible? I don't know. Probably not.
  334. I would guess though that BF2 is not a solved game and people can adapt to what is perceived right now to be the best. If you asked people in 2006 they all would say Maul is the strongest and they would be confident in their knowledge of the game
  335. I agree that you have to play in the current meta, but playing to win isn't going to be a big enough incentive all the time to stop people from wanting to play and try other characters too
  336.  
  337. AsLanToday at 2:11 AM
  338. yes although i think now we've kinda run a circle
  339.  
  340. wolfBTMToday at 2:11 AM
  341. I think so
  342.  
  343. AsLanToday at 2:11 AM
  344. this started with u pointing out that dm didn't provide muc hcharacter identity
  345. but now we're talking about people wanting to play different characters which is what dm forces you to do
  346. theres nothing in scored to prevent someone picking luike if they want
  347. its just no one will, maybe because of the meta, maybe the meta is wrong and its just the community conditioning people
  348. thats why we played dm in the first place
  349. but in truth the best option would probably just be scored formats with only say, low-mid characters allowed
  350. who knows, after enough of them maybe people will start playing them in normal scored
  351. but personally i doubt it
  352.  
  353. wolfBTMToday at 2:13 AM
  354. Hang on where exactly are we disagreeing?
  355.  
  356. We seem to agree that the meta is dynamic and pretty subjective at times.
  357. We agree that character variability is important.
  358.  
  359. I think I disagree with the only allowing low-mid character thing
  360. that is where we are disagreeing
  361. because there needs to be room for people to grow with the mid-low characters against the high tier characters if there is ever going to be mobility or growth with those characters
  362. and it would be exciting for a Luke to beat a Maul, etc etc
  363. rare, but interesting
  364.  
  365. AsLanToday at 2:14 AM
  366. ok im just confused because this started with u saying that dm takes away from developing character identity
  367. but unlss player behaviour changes it actually does this the most
  368. because no one willingly picks things like luke into maul when the format doesnt force them to do so
  369. the whole yoda as a viable strategy into aayla actually developed out of dms
  370.  
  371. wolfBTMToday at 2:15 AM
  372. Yeah... it does.
  373. I guess my point is that character identity needs to be a choice and not forced as dm
  374. That or there needs to be a balance between the variability that dms offer and the meaningful choice of picking it in scored
  375.  
  376. AsLanToday at 2:15 AM
  377. specifically dms with guillaume who was very good with yoda
  378. and played him differenly
  379. the format that ive seen
  380. well, that ive come up
  381. with
  382. that i think balances this out
  383. is a scored format where initially each kill u get with a characters gives u 5 points
  384. but after each kill this decreases by 1, down to a minimum of 1
  385. and the finish score is like 100
  386.  
  387. wolfBTMToday at 2:17 AM
  388. Okay that is a really cool idea. Because it means versatility is rewarded but specialization is still viable
  389.  
  390. AsLanToday at 2:17 AM
  391. in that format you are at liberty to play whatever u want whenever u want
  392. but there is incentive to play multiple characters and try out different matchups because doing so increases the reward-risk ratio dramatically
  393.  
  394. wolfBTMToday at 2:17 AM
  395. yeah
  396.  
  397. AsLanToday at 2:17 AM
  398. the issue is that scoring the format is not practical
  399.  
  400. wolfBTMToday at 2:17 AM
  401. the issue is that format may be too complex for the average players to end up playing, although I really like the concept
  402.  
  403. AsLanToday at 2:18 AM
  404. i ended up writing a program with a keyboard hook so i could just tap some keys without tabbing out
  405. just to score and kjeep track of how many points each char was on
  406. for each player
  407. unless i made the program a tonne better it would be way to clunky for tournament
  408. which is what i meant when i said the main problem for developing a good format is making them convenient
  409. the best i can think of atm is making that a format in say, top 8, and using a more convenient one beforehand
  410.  
  411. wolfBTMToday at 2:19 AM
  412. I guess... when you look at other games they don't seem to be concerned with the competitive viability of the format like this. People just play and if one character is stronger than others they just live with it
  413. idk why bf2 is so drastically different
  414.  
  415. AsLanToday at 2:19 AM
  416. i dont think it does really
  417. like if u look at the MPGR top 100 melee ranking
  418. teh character variety compared to the roster is minute
  419. its the same for bf2 in tournament
  420. there are like 5 characters people play out of 17 in tourney
  421.  
  422. wolfBTMToday at 2:20 AM
  423. Yeah so maybe we shouldn't be trying to address the issue at all
  424.  
  425. AsLanToday at 2:20 AM
  426. i think the reason is
  427. people just get bored
  428. because unlike melee
  429. there isn't sufficient depth to keep someone interesting just seeing the ame few cahracters
  430. so people would prioritise variety because it keeps things fresh
  431. *interested
  432.  
  433. wolfBTMToday at 2:22 AM
  434. idk I think the depth of the game for a long time was largely social. Maul v Vader might be the same but Player X vs Player Y might be different and that is why it is interesting
  435. and they might play Maul v Vader subtly differently than other players
  436.  
  437. AsLanToday at 2:22 AM
  438. it might well be
  439.  
  440. wolfBTMToday at 2:22 AM
  441. Also I've been an advocate of trying to figure out competitive map picks in this game for a while now but we don't have enough consensus on that issue to move forward
  442.  
  443. AsLanToday at 2:23 AM
  444. for the last 4 years there has not been a large group of people playing each other regularly
  445. so maybe it would change with time
  446. its why on the whole i prefer to go with scored tournamnets atm
  447. rather than dms
  448. as well as the practical issues
  449. i think the main issue with other maps is ramps
  450. have u looked at eddies kastel before?
  451.  
  452. wolfBTMToday at 2:24 AM
  453. I mean, you definitely have 2 subgroups with distinct metas in this game. You have the general community with you, Sketch, will, etc. Due to the greater time of most of you in spy and just generally playing more your skill is definitely higher, but the SE people of me, Quigz, Xorath, etc definitely have a distinct subcommunity
  454.  
  455. AsLanToday at 2:24 AM
  456. thats a good one
  457.  
  458. wolfBTMToday at 2:24 AM
  459. and yes i have
  460.  
  461. AsLanToday at 2:24 AM
  462. sure but the SE one only came back afte rGOG i think
  463.  
  464. wolfBTMToday at 2:24 AM
  465. yes
  466. which is why we have lower skill for sure
  467.  
  468. AsLanToday at 2:25 AM
  469. between 2018 and 2014 they weren't even around
  470.  
  471. wolfBTMToday at 2:25 AM
  472. among drama and bullshit with syn lol
  473.  
  474. AsLanToday at 2:25 AM
  475. which is why its more than possible the meta is fully explored
  476.  
  477. wolfBTMToday at 2:26 AM
  478. It's possible but we have no way of knowing
  479.  
  480. AsLanToday at 2:26 AM
  481. unless people start playing more regularly
  482. which is waht im hoping for
  483. and id prefer to start that with a laissez faire format (within reason) like scored
  484.  
  485. wolfBTMToday at 2:27 AM
  486. I think the hands-off style is a good way to go for now
  487. we don't have enough competitive players or talk in the community to establish super structured formats imo
  488. anyway, thanks for the chat but i gtg study for a quiz tomorrow
  489.  
  490. AsLanToday at 2:28 AM
  491. aight gl
  492.  
  493. wolfBTMToday at 2:28 AM
  494. ty
  495.  
  496. AsLanToday at 2:28 AM
  497. l8r
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