wolfBTMToday at 1:23 AM
Will and I were talking more about the GG ban and this is my comment on it. I’m no expert but more opinions could be good, and I think I remember hearing you were into smash so maybe the analogy could help
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/423156222313758743/614253303274012674/image0.png
There’s more context before this, but it’s essentially the conversation had in general

AsLanToday at 1:26 AM
Its not really that the character in itself has no counterplay
Its that a particular style of play with the character has little to no counterplay
So to use your analogy with jiggs (although i think shes more similar to fetts than gg)
if the jiggs plays like hbox normally does then there is counterplay to it and you can do things about it

wolfBTMToday at 1:27 AM
(The jiggs analogy wasn’t for playstyle and more around power, but ya)

AsLanToday at 1:27 AM
its very difficult and takes a lot more skill to beat than the skill it takes to do, but its still counterplay
but if uve watched much of what hbox does
in highstakes matches when hes down he tends to do something called ledge stalling
staying off-stage and repeatedly grabbing the ledge to refresh intangibility frames
there was a recent tournament where he used this to stay in and eventually win a set against wizzroby
*wizzrobe

wolfBTMToday at 1:28 AM
I’m familiar with it, and that does have a limit. I don’t think that has a direct analogy for BF2 though in this context
And yeah I saw that. I still follow melee a little

AsLanToday at 1:28 AM
the equivalent is a gg camping certain areas of the map
and refusing to close distance or interact with the opponent outside of using centre dashes
then repositioning to another such spot
even then, its not that theres NO counterplay to it, there are things you could plausibly do
but its just the risk reward in those circumstances is so skewed, and the gg is so effectively able to avoid interacting in neutral at all that its degenerative to gameplay

wolfBTMToday at 1:30 AM
I mean, if melee community banned jigglypuff then the wizzrobe win wouldn’t exist or mean anything. People only grow and adapt against the dominant meta if they are given the chance to do so.
And these aren’t ridiculously high stakes tournaments anyway.
I don’t even play GG btw

AsLanToday at 1:30 AM
well the melee community
has the benefit of being able to implemenbt things like ledge grab limits
which a lot of ppl are calling for atm
and that policy was actually implemented in brawl

wolfBTMToday at 1:30 AM
I think most tournaments have them now actually

AsLanToday at 1:31 AM
we don't really have an equivalent solution
its too difficult to tell a gg that he can only stay in certain spots too long because its too hard to define and monitor
whereas ledge grab is easily implemented because cliffhangers are tracked by the game

wolfBTMToday at 1:31 AM
True but I think that’s begging the question if that camping has the same degree of issues as ledge stalling, and if it is worth banning an entire character for that reason

AsLanToday at 1:32 AM
i dont really see where im begging the question, im essentially saying that gg's ability to camp is comparable in terms of generacy to planking on puff, and that unlike melee we dont have a feasible solution to the behaviour itself, so we have to tackle the character
*degeneracy
the natural counter to the camping are gunners
the only character who can have a decent chance is vader

wolfBTMToday at 1:34 AM
Is roofcamping officially banned then?

AsLanToday at 1:34 AM
no, but the difference is that roofcamping can't be done in a way that prevents counterplay to the same extent that gg can camp
for example
take the big square building in scrim area
if gg sits along the east side of that building
then there is no safe way for an opponent to close distance with him
certainly not on 30 tps
with anyone else this isn't the case
your options are either
pick a cd char like obi or aayla nad go for repeated dashes across the building with centre
and then immediately roll off
which should never get you a kill and doesnt actually get you anywhere
or to pick vader and hope they mess up
also on 30 tps the first strategy isn't even possible really

wolfBTMToday at 1:37 AM
Or you could not take a fight in a disadvantaged location

AsLanToday at 1:37 AM
ok
then waht happens
if neither of you move

wolfBTMToday at 1:37 AM
Game stalls
But the point is, this is a situation where both characters agree to fight there

AsLanToday at 1:38 AM
the difference is
with other characters
you cannot place yourself in a position where the opponent cannot feasible choose to fight you
with gg you can
if you ever have a situation like the gg one
your ability to win is conditional on your opponents charity
and their willingness not to employ their best/lamest strategy
even a vader camping the top of crashed ship
isn't able to stop an opponent forcing them off if its played right
also personally
i wudnt care that much if hes allowed either
my matches rarely come down to gg
but there have been past tournaments
where matches have been decided by passive gg vs gg fights on flatgrounjd
and its basically whoever decides to try to close loses
also there are not many ggs
that are capable of playing this way
and even fewer that are inclined to
i couldnt do it if i tried, id get too bored
and i dont care about winning enough too
its also less of an issue when you do 1v1 to score than dm
but its still a problem
its also about the amount of skill it takes to perform it relative to the amount it takes to beat it
which is similar to puff planking

wolfBTMToday at 1:44 AM
Okay so if most people don’t do it then why is it banned in a friendly round robin tournament intended to foster player activity?

AsLanToday at 1:45 AM
well im not sure that really makes a difference
the tournament isnt any less friendly for it
and if anything lack of gg is likely to make people want to paly more than not

wolfBTMToday at 1:46 AM
I think the argument could equally go in the direction that some players may see this as needlessly restrictive and not want to participate

AsLanToday at 1:46 AM
i don;t think they'd see it as needless once they had actually experienced it
while these things are meant to be more casual
anyone who has to play against this in a match for 10 minutes is going to stop having fun and is going to see why players would want this to be banned

wolfBTMToday at 1:47 AM
I think your argument for banning him in the case of exploiting that strategy is a good one tbh.

I don’t think that it necessarily applies to auto banning him any time gunners are disabled because the skill gaps in this game matter so much more than any character advantage right now

AsLanToday at 1:48 AM
i think there are istuations and formats
where it might not matter
the problem is we've not come up with a guns off format up till now
that reliably won't come down to gg at a high level
guns off dm is seriously unbalanced because of gg
because so few characters even have a chance against gg even if he chooses not to do this, and if he chooses TO do this then evne vader and aayla are disproportionately likely to lose
so there have been dms that literally come down to gg vs gg
i beleive the only dm soup ever beat sketch in
was one where he got a gigantic streak wiht gg because sketch lost his gg in the mirror
this was the same way will initially was able to beat sketch
and the gg mirror decided the 2016 christmas culling as well i think
or maybe the summer one i dont remember

wolfBTMToday at 1:50 AM
Well dm is really snowbally as it is

AsLanToday at 1:50 AM
yeah its a pretty flawed mode
in 1v1 to score
it might be better
although the 2016 tournaments were both this format and they came down to it anyway

wolfBTMToday at 1:51 AM
It’s hard not to make a flawed mode tbh. Most have their advantages and disadvantages
I developed one that we’ve played a little in the SE crowd that was kinda fun

AsLanToday at 1:51 AM
the main issue is the better formats take a lot more effort to make work
one solution ive thought of trying in future
is to employ a different format after a certain point
so for example you could do guns off 1v1 to 15 with gg enabled for the pool stage
and then another format in the elimination stage
although i dont completely like the principle

wolfBTMToday at 1:53 AM
I’ve been running a best of 5 to 5.
Basically think about it like smash matches.

You do a best of 5 of games to 5. Each time you do a blind pick of the characters you are playing, and you must remain that character for the game to 5.
You can switch characters between the games, but not during, and you cannot play the same character twice
We’ve also done it where you can play the same character twice if you want

AsLanToday at 1:53 AM
thats not a bad format

wolfBTMToday at 1:53 AM
I think character identity is important. Some people develop a name on certain characters and I think the dm format takes away from that interesting part of fighting games

AsLanToday at 1:53 AM
i actually made one pretty similar a while ago
but a bit more complex
the one i had was like tennis
sorta
but basically you could each ban a certain number of characters
the bans would change each "set"
and you'd each have 1 match wide-ban
in each sets you'd play games to 4 points

wolfBTMToday at 1:55 AM
I like it.
I’ve tossed around the idea of a ban phase but my issue is that the game has too few characters to instate that imo

AsLanToday at 1:55 AM
yeah u have to be careful
the issue with the sticking wiht one character thing
is that assuming its truly blind then you can RNG a big disadvantage if they happen to counterpick you in multiple games
it also doersnt really solve the variety issue
because therea re more than 5 top tier characters

wolfBTMToday at 1:57 AM
It was meant more to solve the character identity issue than the variety issue

AsLanToday at 1:57 AM
character identtiy is something valuable

wolfBTMToday at 1:57 AM
Agreed

AsLanToday at 1:57 AM
especially when lots of newer players are playing
because tyhey will tend to paly only a few characters initiall
but really compared to most fighting games

wolfBTMToday at 1:57 AM
Like I said that was my issue with the dm format

AsLanToday at 1:57 AM
character identity in this is very shallow
there simply aren't enough mecahnics to justify playing only one character
and there are some matchups that are too hard outside of 1-tricking vader, gg or fett

wolfBTMToday at 1:59 AM
idk if I quite agree. The number of mechanics themselves is low but most mechanics have multiple degrees of freedom that make them more complex. Sure it isn't smash because the number of moves in smash is much greater, but the movement and camera controls in BF2 add degrees of freedom to most actions that add variability
and anecdotally, character identity does seem to be pretty impactful even at the intermediate level
so it isn't just beginners
People take pride in being the better at a specific character

AsLanToday at 2:00 AM
ye-es
but that doesnt mean maining or 1-tricking is viable

wolfBTMToday at 2:00 AM
Oh I agree
well... Depends what you mean by "maining"
I think it is definitely possible to prioritize skillset in one character in the game over others, but only playing that character isn't viable

AsLanToday at 2:01 AM
i think the reason u can know
that its not worth valueing character identity past a certain point
is that you can have players that play a lot of say, luke or mundi in ffa or casual duels
and then when you put them in a tournament
all yo uwill see is maul
unless they feel like they are playing against a much worse opponent
for example i play a lot of luke

wolfBTMToday at 2:02 AM
How much of that is a result of perceived strength and the culture of the community?
I would contest that 90% of players do not have a high enough skill for that to matter.

AsLanToday at 2:02 AM
and ive done very well with luke against some very good players in dm's
but i would never pick luke over maul in a competitive match unless i knew there was no way i could  lose
or if i was doing it for another reason like mentality
its jsut not worth it against anyone competent
thats not to say i couldn't win with it
its just to say that it wouldn't be in my best interest to try

wolfBTMToday at 2:03 AM
I mean, to lean on the smash analogy again, nobody would've ever picked anything other than spacies vs jiggs until people like wizzy and axe worked a ton on their lower tier characters
Yoshi with amsa
etc
people can make lower tier characters work

AsLanToday at 2:04 AM
sure although
there are some very big differences

wolfBTMToday at 2:04 AM
and it adds a dimension to the game that doesn't otherwise exist if everyone just focuses on perceived character strength

AsLanToday at 2:04 AM
for one thing neither axe nor yoshi have seen very much success vs hbox
and someone like axe would frankly be better off learning fox for the matchup

wolfBTMToday at 2:05 AM
Yes, but the point is that it isn't 100% necessary for it and by sticking with their original characters they add more depth to the game community

AsLanToday at 2:05 AM
but the main difference is that getting even one character to play at that level takes a far far far greater time investment than it would ofr bf2

wolfBTMToday at 2:05 AM
true
that is a good point

AsLanToday at 2:05 AM
melee has insane depth
like

wolfBTMToday at 2:05 AM
yeah

AsLanToday at 2:06 AM
the fundamentals taht all characters share
are actually pretty slim

wolfBTMToday at 2:06 AM
it literally has depth with the z axis lol
sorry that was bad

AsLanToday at 2:06 AM
lul
there is soooo much to learn
just because of the % system
and because characters have different weights, traction, etc.
completely different movesets

wolfBTMToday at 2:07 AM
I'm leaning more on melee for a model of the conceptual end of fighting games in general.
Same thing in street fighter with people playing lower tier characters at a high level
or soul calibur

AsLanToday at 2:07 AM
right but to bring it back to the point
if players in melee could just pick up a characte rlike fox for the jiggs matchup and be able to play at the level necessary then i have no doubt most top players would do so against hbox
but it takes an insane amounat of time to be able to do so
in dwbf2 though, this is definitely possible
which is why people do it
im not saying that for sure the weaker characters are objectively weaker
metas can change
but if ur playing to win, then operating within the current meta, its much more prudente to counterpick than try to win with a character you just have more experience on
taht is, once you've played the counterpick enough to be competent with it

wolfBTMToday at 2:09 AM
Yeah. I guess my argument is that perceived character strength, while largely based on objective things like frame data and the general abilities of characters, is dynamic based on the skills of different players. If there were a Luke that were good enough to beat all your GGs consistently people would think Luke is the strongest. Is that possible? I don't know. Probably not.
I would guess though that BF2 is not a solved game and people can adapt to what is perceived right now to be the best. If you asked people in 2006 they all would say Maul is the strongest and they would be confident in their knowledge of the game
I agree that you have to play in the current meta, but playing to win isn't going to be a big enough incentive all the time to stop people from wanting to play and try other characters too

AsLanToday at 2:11 AM
yes although i think now we've kinda run a circle

wolfBTMToday at 2:11 AM
I think so

AsLanToday at 2:11 AM
this started with u pointing out that dm didn't provide muc hcharacter identity
but now we're talking about people wanting to play different characters which is what dm forces you to do
theres nothing in scored to prevent someone picking luike if they want
its just no one will, maybe because of the meta, maybe the meta is wrong and its just the community conditioning people
thats why we played dm in the first place
but in truth the best option would probably just be scored formats with only say, low-mid characters allowed
who knows, after enough of them maybe people will start playing them in normal scored
but personally i doubt it

wolfBTMToday at 2:13 AM
Hang on where exactly are we disagreeing?

We seem to agree that the meta is dynamic and pretty subjective at times.
We agree that character variability is important.

I think I disagree with the only allowing low-mid character thing
that is where we are disagreeing
because there needs to be room for people to grow with the mid-low characters against the high tier characters if there is ever going to be mobility or growth with those characters
and it would be exciting for a Luke to beat a Maul, etc etc
rare, but interesting

AsLanToday at 2:14 AM
ok im just confused because this started with u saying that dm takes away from developing character identity
but unlss player behaviour changes it actually does this the most
because no one willingly picks things like luke into maul when the format doesnt force them to do so
the whole yoda as a viable strategy into aayla actually developed out of dms

wolfBTMToday at 2:15 AM
Yeah... it does.
I guess my point is that character identity needs to be a choice and not forced as dm
That or there needs to be a balance between the variability that dms offer and the meaningful choice of picking it in scored

AsLanToday at 2:15 AM
specifically dms with guillaume who was very good with yoda
and played him differenly
the format that ive seen
well, that ive come up
with
that i think balances this out
is a scored format where initially each kill u get with a characters gives u 5 points
but after each kill this decreases by 1, down to a minimum of 1
and the finish score is like 100

wolfBTMToday at 2:17 AM
Okay that is a really cool idea. Because it means versatility is rewarded but specialization is still viable

AsLanToday at 2:17 AM
in that format you are at liberty to play whatever u want whenever u want
but there is incentive to play multiple characters and try out different matchups because doing so increases the reward-risk ratio dramatically

wolfBTMToday at 2:17 AM
yeah

AsLanToday at 2:17 AM
the issue is that scoring the format is not practical

wolfBTMToday at 2:17 AM
the issue is that format may be too complex for the average players to end up playing, although I really like the concept

AsLanToday at 2:18 AM
i ended up writing a program with a keyboard hook so i could just tap some keys without tabbing out
just to score and kjeep track of how many points each char was on
for each player
unless i made the program a tonne better it would be way to clunky for tournament
which is what i meant when i said the main problem for developing a good format is making them convenient
the best i can think of atm is making that a format in say, top 8, and using a more convenient one beforehand

wolfBTMToday at 2:19 AM
I guess... when you look at other games they don't seem to be concerned with the competitive viability of the format like this. People just play and if one character is stronger than others they just live with it
idk why bf2 is so drastically different

AsLanToday at 2:19 AM
i dont think it does really
like if u look at the MPGR top 100 melee ranking
teh character variety compared to the roster is minute
its the same for bf2 in tournament
there are like 5 characters people play out of 17 in tourney

wolfBTMToday at 2:20 AM
Yeah so maybe we shouldn't be trying to address the issue at all

AsLanToday at 2:20 AM
i think the reason is
people just get bored
because unlike melee
there isn't sufficient depth to keep someone interesting just seeing the ame few cahracters
so people would prioritise variety because it keeps things fresh
*interested

wolfBTMToday at 2:22 AM
idk I think the depth of the game for a long time was largely social. Maul v Vader might be the same but Player X vs Player Y might be different and that is why it is interesting
and they might play Maul v Vader subtly differently than other players

AsLanToday at 2:22 AM
it might well be

wolfBTMToday at 2:22 AM
Also I've been an advocate of trying to figure out competitive map picks in this game for a while now but we don't have enough consensus on that issue to move forward

AsLanToday at 2:23 AM
for the last 4 years there has not been a large group of people playing each other regularly
so maybe it would change with time
its why on the whole i prefer to go with scored tournamnets atm
rather than dms
as well as the practical issues
i think the main issue with other maps is ramps
have u looked at eddies kastel before?

wolfBTMToday at 2:24 AM
I mean, you definitely have 2 subgroups with distinct metas in this game. You have the general community with you, Sketch, will, etc. Due to the greater time of most of you in spy and just generally playing more your skill is definitely higher, but the SE people of me, Quigz, Xorath, etc definitely have a distinct subcommunity

AsLanToday at 2:24 AM
thats a good one

wolfBTMToday at 2:24 AM
and yes i have

AsLanToday at 2:24 AM
sure but the SE one only came back afte rGOG i think

wolfBTMToday at 2:24 AM
yes
which is why we have lower skill for sure

AsLanToday at 2:25 AM
between 2018 and 2014 they weren't even around

wolfBTMToday at 2:25 AM
among drama and bullshit with syn lol

AsLanToday at 2:25 AM
which is why its more than possible the meta is fully explored

wolfBTMToday at 2:26 AM
It's possible but we have no way of knowing

AsLanToday at 2:26 AM
unless people start playing more regularly
which is waht im hoping for
and id prefer to start that with a laissez faire format (within reason) like scored

wolfBTMToday at 2:27 AM
I think the hands-off style is a good way to go for now
we don't have enough competitive players or talk in the community to establish super structured formats imo
anyway, thanks for the chat but i gtg study for a quiz tomorrow

AsLanToday at 2:28 AM
aight gl

wolfBTMToday at 2:28 AM
ty

AsLanToday at 2:28 AM
l8r