Bored - Today at 5:37 AM
The olde crew fell apart because the war started a bunch of drama and shit that killed the mood and fun. This culminated in the big fight basically not happening as Octane no showed because he lost interest and everyone else just assumed it was called off. Since the crew sort of started around Octane's stream, not having him basically meant there was no sort of focus or "goal". People just sorta stepped away and the whole fun that was lag fleet died.
People went there seperate ways, some playing with each other, others not
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:38 AM
Is Freeport drama losing us some friends? That's unfortunate.
The "Politics" is actually pretty simple. I mean, it comes down to two camps: people who want to do constructive stuff and have a community, and people who want the game to be ONLY about freeform PvP and want to tear down community works.
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:41 AM
Oh people are just mad at me for disolving lagfleet and joining freeport basically and they all wanna blame it on me instead of taking any responsibility lol
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:41 AM
Eh, fair enough.
Mee6BOT - Today at 7:41 AM
GG @[H] MeisterKeen, you just advanced to level 1 !
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:41 AM
yey
How're things in-game?
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:42 AM
Good we built new ships and have them in freeport now. Area is a quiet as a churchmouse have some newish players who built 3 or four ships here and they are exploring and learning the area. They are really interested in joining the community as well.
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:43 AM
Yah, good! Couple of my guys are in there now, too
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:43 AM
So id say everything is quite well at the moment :smiley: scanned the area twice couldnt find anything but peacfull folks
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:43 AM
Nice. A moment of quiet.
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:44 AM
Yeah it was nice to watch 5 ships get built at once peacfully all helping eachother with schematics and mats
Sharing and trading for things and just overall wanting to help eachother build explore and learn
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:45 AM
See, that's what the Port is all about.
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:45 AM
EXACTLY
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:45 AM
That's fantastic, thank you for telling me that
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:45 AM
I dont get why people have such an issue with wanting to porvide a place that this can happen.
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:47 AM
Well, I mean it's a couple of factors.
There are people of ill will out there. Legit crazy folk who don't like the idea of helping people
(I kinda think Ceremor is one of those)
And of course, they'll lie and attack the good works of good people because they're like that.
And then you've got weak-minded people who sorta follow along in the wake of the crazies and work with them
Bored - Today at 7:48 AM
Who's mad that you disolved lag fleet?
Mee6BOT - Today at 7:48 AM
GG @Bored, you just advanced to level 2 !
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:48 AM
dark apparently
Bored - Today at 7:49 AM
well lag fleet sorta was disolved already
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:49 AM
And, of course, when you've got any number of people all making big claims and saying "Those people are BAD" some people are going to believe them just because they're misinformed.
Bored - Today at 7:49 AM
Well there was some bs that started the fire
with the open stream sniping
and such
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:49 AM
Open stream sniping? When?
Bored - Today at 7:50 AM
Way back when
during like the first week or two of Osiris
there was plenty of people in Osiris who defended stream sniping
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:50 AM
And when was that an open thing? Or was it ONE PERSON who openly did that?
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:50 AM
Oh crapola, that's ancient history now. We didn't have a code of ethics, Monkey and I thought that stream-sniping was normal, didn't occur to us that it would be against Twitch ToS
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:51 AM
You confuse the acts of the few with the beliefs of the many
Bored - Today at 7:51 AM
I was talking about how that whole "those are bad people" mentality gets started
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:51 AM
If one person kills another person in the USA does that make everyone murders in your eyes as well?
Bored - Today at 7:51 AM
so the "ancient history" is pretty relevant
It was that it wasn't dealt with and as keen said, him and monkey thought it was normal and didn't have issue with it
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:52 AM
It was dealt with...
We made an entire code of ethics for freeport
Bored - Today at 7:53 AM
now it is
I know that dude
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:53 AM
Explicitly banning sniping
And that wasnt someting that was made in 5 min it took a few days mate
Bored - Today at 7:53 AM
I'm not sure what you are trying to argue octane?
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:54 AM
Im not sure what your trying to lol
You bash on freeport for the acts of one man
Bored - Today at 7:54 AM
It wasn't one man.
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:54 AM
And than recognize that that issue was resolved preventing further instances
Bored - Today at 7:54 AM
Things have changed
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:55 AM
@bored
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:55 AM
So you have an issue with the port because why than?
Mee6BOT - Today at 7:55 AM
GG @Octane__Gaming, you just advanced to level 5 !
Bored - Today at 7:55 AM
I was talking about how Osiris became the "bad guys" in the eyes of many
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:55 AM
You sound like your defending the "bad guys"
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:55 AM
@Bored okay wait, my understanding was that the stream-sniping was pretty limited. It happened a bit, but then was shut down after a couple of weeks.
Right? I mean, we admit that. That's a thing, and we took responsibility for it.
Mee6BOT - Today at 7:56 AM
GG @[H] MeisterKeen, you just advanced to level 2 !
Bored - Today at 7:56 AM
I agree @[H] MeisterKeen but the fact is it tainted the image of Osiris
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:56 AM
Actually, I'm gonna disagree with you there.
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:57 AM
Highly dissagree
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:57 AM
I've been very closely investigating what's gone on here. I've been elbow-deep in this for over a week and I am very familiar with what's been going on, where the accusations are coming from, and the context of those accusations.
I know a lot about this, and here's what i've found:
Bored - Today at 7:57 AM
How can you ignore that it tainted the image?
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:58 AM
It showed our ethics and morals are in the right place and that we as a community can solve our internal issues without nonsenical drama or bashing someone we fixed it like adults in a real community
Bored - Today at 7:58 AM
That is your perspective
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:58 AM
I've found that, one-for-one, almost a direct correlation on each instance, the people who have accused the Freeport of wrongdoing are actually guilty of exactly the same or very similar wrongdoing.
Bored - Today at 7:58 AM
if you want people to be for Osiris you have to understand how they view it
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:58 AM
I've also found that each accusation has been, almost every single one, a HUGE overstatement of the actual case.
Bored - Today at 7:59 AM
They are huge overstatements
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:59 AM
Judging from the discord we have the majority of people in favor of the port
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 7:59 AM
Yeah, I mean, I get it. But that view is patently based on falsehoods.
I plan to blow the lid on all of that.
Bored - Today at 7:59 AM
the discord is a pretty damned bias source there octane
Octane__Gaming - Today at 7:59 AM
Whats your unbiased souce there bored?
Bored - Today at 8:00 AM
I don't have an "unbiased" source, I listen to all the sources I can and they are all biased
but it's important to understand those biases and why they exists
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:00 AM
Ignorance from the sounds of things
Bored - Today at 8:00 AM
on both sides
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:01 AM
maybe so
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:01 AM
It's quite simple, yo. The two REAL camps here are the people who want a working, civilized community, the people who want to tear that community down, and people who are confused because of misinformation.
So... well, okay, that's three.
Bored - Today at 8:01 AM
false dichotomy keen
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:01 AM
I don't think so, man.
I think that's a very true dichotomy.
Bored - Today at 8:01 AM
very much so
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:01 AM
But thats the beauty of civilizations whom can have their own opions of things
Bored - Today at 8:02 AM
there are MANY opinions in the middle keen
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:02 AM
@Bored is there really any viable justification for Ceremor's actions?
Bored - Today at 8:02 AM
Do you think I'm defending his actions?
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:02 AM
I mean, honestly. Taken a whole. His behavior in this community. Do you think it's justifiable, or would you condemn him?
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:02 AM
I dont hear you saying anything about what he is doing wrong
Bored - Today at 8:03 AM
He's attacking all of Osiris because of petty beef
Mee6BOT - Today at 8:03 AM
GG @Bored, you just advanced to level 3 !
Bored - Today at 8:03 AM
and stirring up drama
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:03 AM
@Bored Okay, good. That's my view, too.
Bored - Today at 8:03 AM
But he is also influential, and he and many of his supporters see him as the good guy
taking out "the evil corrupt Osiris"
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:04 AM
But its all just theatrics and lies lets be real here
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:04 AM
Now, on the part of the Freeport,. Given what you know of our actual actions and our actual intentions, would you tend to support the Freeport? Do you think that, on the whole, the Freeport's actions are good and constructive?
Bored - Today at 8:05 AM
He doesn't generally straight up lie, he exagurates and greedily extrapolates
I  personally like the concept of Osiris
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:05 AM
Fair enough. That's close enough to lying for my purposes.
Bored - Today at 8:05 AM
I want that to exist whether it takes the form of reforms to Osiris or something new I want either
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:05 AM
Okay, you like the concept. What about its leadership, and its members and representatives -- their actions taken as a whole. Do you think the Freeport has, on the whole, acted constructively?
Bored - Today at 8:06 AM
Mixed bag
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:06 AM
In what way has the Freeport acted destructively?
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:06 AM
If we had figured out how to manage a perfect community in real life Im sure the world would be a different place man
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:06 AM
Are you referring specifically to the handful of instances of stream-sniping, or the one member who was duping before we stopped it?
Bored - Today at 8:07 AM
More the attitudes shown towards things
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:07 AM
I want you to name your position, Bored. Do you so adamantly condemn those past actions that our current actions in no way make up for them, or are we actually doing well on the whole? I mean, you say "mixed bag" but all I see there is veiled criticism.
Bored - Today at 8:07 AM
I see a lot of dismissiveness about various attitudes
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:07 AM
What specifically would you criticize?
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:07 AM
I watched said member by the way tear appart  his ship and dump all his matts away before stepping foot on our ships mind you. Because of the allogations against him and his relation to the port
Do you see behind closed doors?
Bored - Today at 8:08 AM
I have seen through some key holes, but no I don't have x-ray vision
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:08 AM
Yeah, Billy's been very careful to avoid any appearance of using duping to aid the Port. I believe he may still dupe for personal play but he's under orders that his duped materials may in no way affect the Port as a whole./
@Bored want a look past the curtain?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hxYiMxUKdI8FfcnZzAvU_IuYLQEq1l0583ZO7J0kxxI/edit?usp=drivesdk
Google Docs
THE FREEPORT CHARTER
SECTION I: THE LAW OF THE FREEPORT The Law of the Freeport is: DO NOT TAKE HOSTILE ACTION WHILE INSIDE THE FREEPORT. DEFEND YOURSELF AS NEEDED, BUT DO NOT START FIGHTS, STEAL RESOURCES OR SETTLE GRUDGES WHILE WITHIN THE FREEPORT WALLS. To enforce this one law fairly, we use six basic Rules: ...
There's one.
Bored - Today at 8:09 AM
I've seen the charter
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:09 AM
Okay.
That's the most recent version. Final, pending review
Bored - Today at 8:09 AM
I would criticize the time it is taking, the overly complex nature
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:10 AM
Okay, those are fair criticisms.
Bored - Today at 8:10 AM
The process didn't seem as open as I would have liked
Look I will critique things because I want Osiris to succeed
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:10 AM
The time it's taking is directly my fault. I'm finally getting time to really finish these things off, but honestly the Charter should have been done like ten days ago
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:10 AM
Your must remember this is a game people have lives things take a bit longer when they arent getting paid 9 to 5 to make this things
Bored - Today at 8:10 AM
I understand that
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:11 AM
Why not lend a hand speed up the prosess
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:11 AM
Actually, if you've got any specific notes on the Charter, I'd like to hear them
Bored - Today at 8:12 AM
I remember making a few comments in the discord, will need to read current version
"The Chief Justice is appointed by the Founder of the Freeport."
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:15 AM
Hmmmm
Bored - Today at 8:15 AM
Wondering why that appointment falls to keen
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:15 AM
Okay ill give that to you thats actually a good question but with how much behind enimy lines shit that has occured I cant blame him for wanting to elect someone whom he knows has freeports best interests at heart
But at the same time
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:16 AM
I want to retain a little bit of a handle on the administration. Not a major one, and not a direct leadership role -- there are some folks who would saddle me with a leadership job if they had their way -- but this gives me just a little bit of official control, and over the one really touchy part of the administration.
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:16 AM
I see your side of it that a position like that should be elected
I see both sides with the events of recent
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:16 AM
In the US, Justices are NOT elected. They are appointed.
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:16 AM
Okay see thats also a good point there
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:17 AM
I'm actually mimicing that system, in a cockeyed fashion.
Bored - Today at 8:17 AM
Next, I undertsnad the indivudal roles of the small council member, but what exactly does the small council itself do other then a weekly meeting? Is the term mostly just to refer to them as a whole?
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:18 AM
Good question actually Id like to know that as well.
See now this is constructive :smile:
This is the q&a stuff that goes on long into the night after my streams these are what we talk about behind the doors
Bored - Today at 8:20 AM
"A Freeport has up to five Citizen Councilmen"
up to?
what case would allow for less?
just resignation with no seat replaced?
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:20 AM
In the case that we haven't built a full Council yet xD
Mee6BOT - Today at 8:20 AM
GG @[H] MeisterKeen, you just advanced to level 3 !
Bored - Today at 8:20 AM
does a replacement only serve remaining term?
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:21 AM
I would just replace at next election cycle, I guess. That's a good detail though, we should get something down in writing on that.
Bored - Today at 8:22 AM
Also voting procedure does not mention voting method.
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:22 AM
No, it doesn't. Only mentions requirements.
Bored - Today at 8:22 AM
FPTP? SR?
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:22 AM
Yeah, that's actually a thing I was going to bring up
I really don't like first-past-the-post
It's simple and easy, but I don't like it.
Bored - Today at 8:23 AM
Finally after it's down you should probably make a simplified version
Since while the verbosity is nice for clarity
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:23 AM
Not a bad idea but obviously the detailed version has to be perfected first
Bored - Today at 8:24 AM
it's a bit more then the casual player would want to read through
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:24 AM
You're totally right, but too much simplification really creates a LOT of confustion down the line
It's six pages, and it's pretty readable as-is, so I'm gonna say no on simplifying it except in a spot or two where fewer words will really get across the same concept
Bored - Today at 8:25 AM
Also where did mention of the ethics standards go?
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:26 AM
just a Seperate doc isnt it?
Bored - Today at 8:26 AM
ya, but it was mentioned in previous charter drafts was it not?
personally I think it has a place in the charter
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:28 AM
It's not part of the Charter, I'll link it...
Bored - Today at 8:30 AM
Also procedure for council/assembly decisions is not clear
Though perhaps that would be better done in a sepearte document
to keep the charter clean
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:31 AM
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m_cmzI5DZ6KPrWrRhk1qFzjNH0e278Yxcv4v1YnQpBI/edit?usp=drivesdk
Google Docs
The Freeport Officials' Ethical Standards Act
The Freeport Officials' Ethical Standards Act An Official is defined as a specially-empowered Officer acting in a position of authority for the benefit of the Freeport. Military/Security personnel, members of the Dept. of the Treasury, and all Elected or Appointed Officers or Administrators in ...
Bored - Today at 8:32 AM
Right that is something I had a major criticism of "In Cases where an Act can be Demonstrated to have Resulted in real Harm, In or Out of Game"
what does "real harm" mean
also "
Freeport Officials Found Guilty of Unethical Acts maybe Removed from Station, and barred from any Future Administration Post if found Guilty by the Court.

Freeport Users may be, temporarily or permanently, Suspended from Citizenship or Banned from Freeport Discord if found Guilty of Unethical Acts by the Court."
both use may
what determines that
Mee6BOT - Today at 8:33 AM
GG @Bored, you just advanced to level 4 !
Bored - Today at 8:33 AM
what is the standard for these punishments
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:34 AM
Hard to set hard standards.
Bored - Today at 8:35 AM
don't need to be hard standards
just some standards
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:35 AM
To a degree you have to trust people's judgement, I mean, you leave talking points intentionally sometimes
Bored - Today at 8:36 AM
I mean, there should be case dependant judgement, but some guiding language and standards should probably be poresented
presented*
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:36 AM
Actually, what tends to really clarify these legal points is precedent
Past judements, and the details thereof, become guiding standards for future judgements.
Bored - Today at 8:36 AM
precedent is a part yes
but generally laws are written to be clear enough to make informed decision when setting the precident
language like "real harm" should be defined
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:38 AM
I can see that. "Real harm" can be a bit fuzzy. But defining that further would be complex
Bored - Today at 8:38 AM
does duping count as "real harm", what about trading duped materials, what about using a ship made from duped materials and fighting with it?
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:38 AM
Wha wording would you use?
Actually, could you come back at me with a re-write of that particular bit that you think would work better?
Bored - Today at 8:39 AM
ok, maybe not today
getting a bit tired
it's 4:40am
fuuuuuuuuck
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:39 AM
Hahahaha, okay
But hey -- thanks for talking with me. Want to go at this again sometime tomorrow?
Octane__Gaming - Today at 8:40 AM
Yeah this is really constructive really
Bored - Today at 8:40 AM
also significant might be better then "real"
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:40 AM
Yeah, that's a better word. Okay.
Bored - Today at 8:41 AM
Anyways, I'm off to bed
[H] MeisterKeen - Today at 8:44 AM
Gnite, man
MonkeydoGames - Today at 10:31 AM
I would sy real and significant are two different things..
real to me says real life (like branding someone a racist) significant is just a large amount or impoactful amount whether in game terms or real life terms
Bored - Today at 1:18 PM
Significant doesn't mean large amount per se, it means enough to be noteable or impactful
So is the rule supposed to refer then to personal harm?
If so "real harm" is not clear enough