AssMan - Today at 11:49
oras ubers is so much better bro
Disaster Area - Today at 11:49
i dont like it lol but :blobshrug:
tbh theres still arguing going on over like what our policy on bans should be(edited)
AssMan - Today at 11:49
mm
pretty sure oras ubers would ge tmore tournament interest at least
Disaster Area - Today at 11:50
it would but thats not rly the point... the point is having our own tiers w/ the tiering philosophy of having a balanced tier etc. with as few bans as possible
trouble is it's way easier to
acknowledge smogon's tiers are very inadequate on that front
than it is to produce a viable alternative
especially because a lot of players have preconditions about how balanced ubers is
so in practice like tiering lower tiers is easy u just need to get enough people together to make it happen
w/ 1U it's much harder cos idk how we limit the impacts of those biases to get the best result
AssMan - Today at 11:52
whats unbalanced about
oras ubers
Disaster Area - Today at 11:53
ngl balanced might not even be the right word
im just using that as like a placeholder in this convo to explain that obviously we should have some standard by which we should ban pokemon
and well that's not completely determined atm
the way its sorta looking atm is talking about the tier having adequate competitive depth
which i dont really think does the job either but im really struggling
to come up w something better
like ok oras ubers it's somewhat well balanced as a tier ngl, it's really not my cup of tea but it is balancd
AssMan - Today at 11:55
yeah it is balanced
Disaster Area - Today at 11:55
primal groudon is also pretty overcentralising tho and I think if u remove that, geoxern/shadow tag/mega mence/maybe primal ogre
AssMan - Today at 11:55
and the better player usually wins
Disaster Area - Today at 11:55
become broke
AssMan - Today at 11:55
overcentralising is fine
it can be good for a tier
Disaster Area - Today at 11:55
to some extent idk i mean
oras 1u as it stands is definitely less centralised than oras ubers
but more centralised than oras ou
at the same time oras 1u is pretty stable and balanced too and i would argue that oras ou was arguably even like
undercentralised
at least for a time
bc it was so much harder to account for every major threat with just 6 pokemon slots
i think that got smoothed out somewhat over time tho
but there was a memorable quite long period of people bitching about matchup in oras ou
and i think that given there werent weather dynamics in the tier the culprit is essentially undercentralisation
so i feel u
i think if u talk in terms of competitive depth u can make an argument against a certain level of overcentralisation tho... im not saying it's right i'm just saying that in that framework, u can make that argument
tiering is so messy lol
AssMan - Today at 12:00
dunno what you mean by competitive depth
Disaster Area - Today at 12:00
http://www.pokemonperfect.com/forums/index.php?threads/my-banworthiness-guidelines.4875/
orth kinda went in on explaining it
so better i just link this thread
AssMan - Today at 12:01
so how does oras 1u have more competitive depth than ubers
Disaster Area - Today at 12:02
well it's not as centralised as oras ubers is, so there's more options for players, and so on
http://www.pokemonperfect.com/forums/index.php?threads/overcentralisation.5004/
i made a thread on overcentralisation too
i think in there orth provided an argument for why
overcentralisation reduces competitive depth
:blobshrug: it's a messy process and I just wish I had an answer that was better than
having ubers be 1U in almost every gen
but it's difficult to make a coherent philosophy that enables it to happen any other way
AssMan - Today at 12:03
having ubers as 1u is the best starting point though
since these tiers have been balanced over the years
Disaster Area - Today at 12:03
i mean as a starting point yes
like in the sense that well we start from there and then do bans
AssMan - Today at 12:04
but
banning pdon makes the tier worse
less competitive depth
pdon allows for
Disaster Area - Today at 12:04
yea but after like 5 bans it increases competitive depth
AssMan - Today at 12:04
solid teambuilding that has a chance versus every matchup
mm no not really
Disaster Area - Today at 12:04
it does imo but :blobshrug: this is part of why
i dont really like
competitive depth
AssMan - Today at 12:05
how?
Disaster Area - Today at 12:05
bc
i cant argue vs someone who likes ubers
why ubers shouldnt be 1U
under that standard
AssMan - Today at 12:05
how does more usage mean that the better player wins moreoften
?
Disaster Area - Today at 12:05
idk if the better player wins more often in oras 1u vs in oras ubers... honestly too small a sample size to ask it anyway
objectively at the very least u do have more viable options
and fewer mons receiving as high a usage as you see in oras ubers
AssMan - Today at 12:06
yeah
but you said that
competitive depth is better player winning more often right
Disaster Area - Today at 12:06
i didnt say that
AssMan - Today at 12:06
well in the thread
Competitive depth refers to the extent to which players who invest time and effort into the game can be rewarded with significantly greater skill at the game and thus gain an edge over their opponents.
Disaster Area - Today at 12:07
hm yea i guess it does say that
yea i really dont like this standard
AssMan - Today at 12:07
i mean
if you look at the ssnl records
Disaster Area - Today at 12:07
im not really sure if
oras 1u
AssMan - Today at 12:07
of the better players in oras
ubers
Disaster Area - Today at 12:07
is that much mor ecompetitively deep
than oras ubers
if it even is at all
tbqh
AssMan - Today at 12:07
there were some extremely consistent players
Disaster Area - Today at 12:07
i still would rather oras 1u than oras ubers be our 1u tier but
this tiering philosophy
doesnt make it straightforward for me to argue my case
at all
AssMan - Today at 12:08
oras ubers is proven to have
competitive depth
and oras 1u is not proven to
in fact it probably reduces it
because it makes teambuilding more of a pain
Disaster Area - Today at 12:08
hm thats an interesting argument
AssMan - Today at 12:08
also
Disaster Area - Today at 12:08
so i guess u can actually use
AssMan - Today at 12:08
is dpp ubers coming to pp
or adv ubers
Disaster Area - Today at 12:09
the competitive depth argument
to argue in favour of having
a more centralised metagame
rather than a less centralised one
AssMan - Today at 12:09
yeah
Disaster Area - Today at 12:09
and meanwhile orth made the opposite argument so
this is unhelpful
as a standard
lol
AssMan - Today at 12:09
well i mean
shouldnt the standard of having a tier be
the better player should win most often
isnt that the ideal standard
Disaster Area - Today at 12:10
hm i guess yea... doesnt smogon use something like that
AssMan - Today at 12:10
dunno
Disaster Area - Today at 12:10
the only exception w smogon is that they start with a bunch of arbitary bans and then say u have to argue to change the status quo
but I think they say like any rule change has to increase player skill or something to that effect
which is a similar thing
i guess in practice like rby ubers is probably the only tier where u would easily get a majority of people to argue that
the better player doesn't win over the worse player that much better than half the time
AssMan - Today at 12:11
sorry
Disaster Area - Today at 12:11
even with a big skill difference
AssMan - Today at 12:11
which are the arbitrary bans
Disaster Area - Today at 12:12
in oras ou i mean banning all of the arceus forms primal groudon reshiram etc etc etc
i mean i think oras ubers would be fine by their standards
AssMan - Today at 12:12
arent we talking about 1u
or ubers
Disaster Area - Today at 12:12
if they started off with oras ubers
im talking for a second in the context of on smogon
AssMan - Today at 12:12
pokemon perfect is the one that starts off with the arbitrary bans
for ubers
.....
Disaster Area - Today at 12:12
Disaster Area - Today at 12:10
the only exception w smogon is that they start with a bunch of arbitary bans and then say u have to argue to change the status quo
that's regarding their OU tier
I think under their tiering philosophy if they started off with oras ubers as their OU tier
they wouldnt end up banning anything
or at least that's a possibility
AssMan - Today at 12:13
..
swagger baton pass evasion
maybe shadow tag
they would ban
Disaster Area - Today at 12:13
swagger baton pass evasion sure
probably not shadow tag i mean
shadow tag is not as powerful in oras ubers as pdon is(edited)
AssMan - Today at 12:14
hmm no i think if ubers was ou
shadow tag would definitely have been banned
im gonna dip now
Disaster Area - Today at 12:14
alright
AssMan - Today at 12:14
i really would like to see some
Disaster Area - Today at 12:14
its good to chat about this stuff
AssMan - Today at 12:14
ubers tier tours on pp
in the future
yeah
peace out