Nixon and Aides July 1 8:45-9:52 A.M. Plumbers Genesis

JULY 1, 1971: THE PRESIDENT, HALDEMAN, AND KISSINGER, 8:45-9:52 A.M., OVAL OFFICE

A crucial day in the history of Watergate. The court has ruled against the president on the publication of the Pentagon Papers, but Nixon isn't concerned about what's in the Papers. They focus mainly on his predecessors, Johnson and Kennedy, and can be used to divert attention from his own administration. He is, however, worried that Daniel Ellsberg is a symptom of a vast network in the bureaucracy that is undercutting his policy. This network is a symptom of the elite, the "Eastern People", who have never forgiven him for going after one of their own, Alger Hiss. The network is a vast conspiracy which must be defeated, and this paranoia is fed by a story told by Haldeman: an overheard conversation at a football game where a peace group will use its contacts inside the government to leak more secrets, and bring down Nixon. So, this anecdote of a distant conversation perhaps misheard, warning of a breach that never took place, spurs him on further to create the plumbers group. And so, the action helped along by the warning of a second hand story brings about his downfall: we have the symmetry of tragedy.

Audio of this conversation can be found here:

http://nixontapeaudio.org/chron1/rmn_e534a.mp3

Time points of these segments in the file are listed here:

Segment One: 5:53-13:25

Segment Two: 15:02-25:39

Segment Three: 37:00-47:32

Segmnent Four: 53:11-1:01:26

A clip of this conversation is on youtube, accompanied by transcript:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqnCYD_50mw

SEGMENT ONE

HALDEMAN: Talked to Elliot [Elliot Richardson, Secretary of Defense] about, late last night, about the uh...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. Before you say a word about him, let me tell you one thing I want you to know about Eastern People. I don't like to go into old history, but in the Hiss case, Bob, the major problem I had was that Hiss came from such a nice family. He was the boy chosen at John Hopkins to be the boy most likely to succeed. His family were just beyond reproach. One of the best, one of the better families in the whole country. And he had graduated from Harvard Law School. Chambers came from a bad family. That argument was made over and over again. I don't want to hear this family shit any more, from anybody. The guys from the best families are the most likely to develop an arrogance that puts them above the law. [unintelligible] But Elliot, Elliot [unintelligible] They all are that way. All these Harvard people. Or from Columbia. They just can't be wrong. What's he say? Everything alright? He's not guilty, huh?

HALDEMAN: Nah.

HALDEMAN: He did precisely what Laird said he did.

HALDEMAN: He showed the cables to Ellsworth Bunker on the Chau [Tran Ngoc Chau] case...to Ellsberg. But he did this, and then those cables were later-

PRESIDENT NIXON: [unintelligible]

HALDEMAN: Yeah. This is the case that came up, Ellsberg says, when he was at the State Department. [unintelligible] He was Elliot's assistant in Vietnam. He knew Chau. As did Ellsberg. And he showed the cable...they were going to bat for Chau. Showed the cables...the cables that he showed Ellsberg were later printed by Jimmy Doyle in The Star. In this Washington Star story.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Why didn't he catch Ellsberg then?

HALDEMAN: That's a very interesting point. Rogers [William Rogers, Secretary of State], at that time was very concerned about it, and ran an investigation. Found that Cooke [Charles Cooke, member of the National Security Council] had shown the cables to Ellsberg, Ellsberg was at Rand, and with no security violations in any way, shape, or form. He had not given him the cables, he had shown them to him. When the leak appeared in The Star, when Doyle's story appeared in The Star, the cables, they started checking this at State. Cooke volunteered the fact that he had shown the papers to Ellsberg, and, in his opinion, Ellsberg could very well have been the leak on it. Which indicated his distrust of Ellsberg. On the basis of that, State Department raised a row over at Rand Corporation, to make the point the problem was Ellsberg. By then, Ellsberg was already gone, and Elliot can't remember whether he'd been fired or the story was he left. But he wasn't at Rand anymore. So State dropped the case because of that.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Now, Elliot is not going to stand there and tell us, that Cooke and Ellsberg...that Cooke didn't know that Ellsberg would do such a thing, as to show them to The Star. What bullshit.

HALDEMAN: [unintelligible] He also, talking to [unintelligible], who were there at the time on the investigation...They also found that someone else in the State Department, a girl, actually later, after Ellsberg knew about the cables, from Cooke...Ellsberg got to another contact in State, a girl, by the name of [unintelligible], and got the actual cables from her. Called Cooke in last night, Cooke has said he has not given or shown any other information to Ellsberg, nor has he had any interaction with Ellsberg, since this...thing. As to the question of whether he had a security problem at Defense before he left, he says, he is not aware of any, and he was very surprised to hear that there could have been. Maybe because he was dating an asian american, but he left [unintelligible] He was on the faculty of West Point and the Air Force Academy. He was in [unintelligible] group on Vietnam. Special Studies. Early '70. He's been at HEW [Health Education Welfare] for about a year. And he's Elliot's ombudsman at HEW. As in listening, moving around.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Alright.

HALDEMAN: He was working with Elliot on developing ceasefire initiatives...he is very moderate in personal opinion type stuff. He's not done anything in public. As far as Elliot knows.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Everything was fine. Bullshit! Doesn't Elliot know that you've got a time bomb there? Oh, I know I know, they'll say he's moderate. He's nice and supportive. Goddamnit, that's the way these sonsofbitches work. Fired! That's enough! Get this sonofabitch out, now! That's the way to handle him. What's Elliot want to do. Let Elliot decide if he doesn't want to do it. I feel perfectly strongly that you need a hardliner. What's Elliot going to say? "He's a nice guy and he's sorry. We're sorry he did this, and we'll watch him closely." Is that the upshot of the whole thing?

HALDEMAN: No, the upshot of the whole thing is, he feels that Cooke did nothing at all he should not have done. There's no case against him at all. Ellsberg, Cooke felt at the time, was a trusted member of the apparatus-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Ellsberg was working in the bureaucracy to screw us on foreign policy matters.

HALDEMAN: But he didn't know that. Nor did Henry Kissinger or anybody else who was talking to him. Your conspiracy thing is very interesting. Frances Raine [Haldeman's brother-in-law] called me, left me a message yesterday. He was at a football game in Los Angeles. A Rams game, last October. Two people sitting behind him were conversing. By the conversation it was clear, one of them was a member of the Business Executives Move for [Vietnam] Peace, who I think, that's William [brigadier general William Wallace Ford], who are financing [Pete] McCloskey [congressional representative and anti-war Republican presidential aspirant]. And there was a demonstration coming up, and one man said to the other, are your group going to participate in the demonstration? And he said "No, we've got a bigger project underway." As the conversation developed, it became clear that the bigger project, and he spelled this out, was: "Next summer, we're going to leak some of the papers about the war. And we've got it set up to go out. We've got a man in Kissinger's office, who is giving us the material. And-"

PRESIDENT NIXON: Who is it?

HALDEMAN: He didn't say.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's my point. I think there is one.

HALDEMAN: "There are two men in the White House, who will quit next summer. And will bring out this information, and denounce the war." And that all was covered in a conversation last fall, which France didn't think was significant at the time.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Who was...this letter signed to?

HALDEMAN: [unintelligible] I don't know.

PRESIDENT NIXON: [unintelligible] Have you told anybody about this conversation?

HALDEMAN: No.

SEGMENT TWO

HALDEMAN: And Howard Smith had a-

PRESIDENT NIXON: What is it?

HALDEMAN: -a good thing on the establishment. He said, you know, people are against the establishment. He said, they don't understand, the establishment is The New York Times and all those people, and the leading anti-establishment figure in the country today is the man who sits in the Oval Office.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's...good.

HALDEMAN: It kindof convinces the people that the anti-establishment figure is the kind of guy who puts ketchup on his cottage cheese. And the leading anti-establishment figure in the country today is the man who's sitting-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Hmmmhmmm. Let me ask you Bob, now, did you talk to Ehrlichman and the rest? I talked to Colson...I've done a lot of thinking last night, and I'd like to do some more this afternoon and this evening, if I don't have to do something on that July 3 thing. I have a feeling that we have a hell of an opportunity here. Now, you won't get that from anybody else here, except for Colson, of course, he's not...but: here's why. This is a conspiracy, it does involve these people, and they are not on very good ground in many cases. Also, we now have the opportunity to agree to leak out all these nasty stories that will kill these bastards. I don't know if you noted this morning, but even the Times, to my great surprise, devoted a hell of a lot to the Kennedy thing. Kennedy and Diem. Agreed?

HALDEMAN: Yup. It's hit the Post.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Alright. Now. To what extent do your...are you getting the recommendations set, to run out and make a statement? And to what extent do they have the view that this is not the time for a statement. Let me tell you my view. I don't think this is the time, and I don't think the sixth [of July] is the time. I don't think I should elevate this squabble about the suppression of the papers and so forth up a notch...I don't give a Goddamn about suppression, I don't mind being known as a suppressor. For a while, now...anybody that believes in suppression, believes it of us already. That's my view. Also I think, further down the line, and this is what it really comes down to, if we [unintelligible] then, I can really unload on them. [unintelligible] Now, what is the argument? How many people want me to rush out and make a statement today, how many want me to do it on the sixth, how many want me to wait, what is the view, and so forth.

HALDEMAN: Ehrlichman's view is the only one I have at this point. All the others haven't come up with a view, and John still holds to his that you should make a statement on the sixth.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Why?

HALDEMAN: He thinks he does. I just feel that he's trying to sort it all out now.

PRESIDENT NIXON: He's got so many other things to do?

HALDEMAN: No. He's riding this. But his inclination is that you still should make the statement. I'm not sure it's on the suppression of the news.

PRESIDENT NIXON: No. I'm not going to make a statement. I don't feel right about a statement. I'm not ready. Ellsberg's come up for trial. I don't want to get in with that. I don't want to get into the suppression of news. Of course, [unintelligible], we go forward. I don't see anything before. And I want to write and have a talk with Colson. Particularly to get his views. But John, Bob, tends to want to step up. Always. He's a great one when it comes to hitting things. I'm willing to step up, but I never want to step up at the wrong time. I feel there's a time and a way to get...and maybe this is not the time. What is his argument for, does he think we need to clear the air by saying something?

HALDEMAN: I think he thinks you will gain by now putting the whole thing into perspective, making the case for why we have to protect the government's ...process of doing business...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Alright. Before, I'm going to see Henry. Till then. But I wonder if you could have a meeting with John, Colson, with Moore [Dick Moore]. Would Scali [John Scali, media consultant] be interested in this, you think? I think you oughta have him. Ziegler?

HALDEMAN: Well, that's the regular group. [unintelligible] I think he oughta pull his group together and go through...

PRESIDENT NIXON: What I'm getting at is, I think you can have a little discussion about...you know Kissinger well enough to...he's basically so emotional about the...and to a certain extent, Bob, he's correct. You just shouldn't allow, you should not allow the fact that papers have been printed to...that cannot be the basis for declassifying papers.

HALDEMAN: John [Ehrlichman] agrees with that-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Absolutely. What does John-

HALDEMAN: John is quite opposed, I think, to Laird's idea of releasing them. As I understand it, his quick reaction was, he was sympathetic to Henry's view that we should maintain our continuing position. Also, he thinks we should go on a criminal route against the Times. You know-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Here's the other thing. Don't get Mitchell into this, because Mitchell will not be able to see it clearly. I think you've got a good group there. It may be here that we can use Laird. I'll tell you why. Laird has the biggest spy apparatus of anybody, you understand. That's bigger than the FBI on things like this. The FBI won't get into this sort of thing. They don't know how to handle it, Bob. They do not handle it. Now, the main thing is whether the Laird group will get into it. Here's what I have in mind, and I've got to get [Tom Charles] Huston or somebody fast, but either Huston or somebody like Huston fast. That's why the-on the Dick Allen thing.  I think you've got to take Dick Allen on the mountaintop and see if he wants to handle this.

HALDEMAN: Who said that he didn't?

PRESIDENT NIXON: You didn't think he was the right guy. You wanted somebody that-John [Ehrlichman] didn't, I think, or somebody because he's too-

HALDEMAN: Well, Dick doesn't think he is...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Dick Allen? Okay.

HALDEMAN: He'll come in on the short term. We can get Allen right now, pulling some people together who can do it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: He doesn't need really, Petersen...does Petersen [unintelligible]?

HALDEMAN: Yeah, but we can use Allen.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Here's what I want. This is what I want. I have a project that I want somebody to take it just like I took the Hiss case, the [Elizabeth] Bentley case, and the rest. And I'll tell you what. This takes-this takes 18 hours a day. It takes devotion and dedication and loyalty and diligence such as you've never seen, Bob. I've never worked as hard in my life and I'll never work as hard again because I don't have the energy. But this thing is a hell of a great opportunity because here is what it is. I don't have direct knowledge of who the Goddamn leaker is and, you see-and here's where John will recall I don't-probably we don't have to tell him. You probably don't know what I meant when I said yesterday that we won the Hiss case in the papers. We did. I had to leak stuff all over the place. Because the Justice Department would not prosecute it. Hoover didn't even cooperate until I leaked it out. It was won in the papers. John Mitchell doesn't understand that sort of thing. He's a good lawyer. It's hard to him. John Ehrlichman will have difficulty. But what I mean is we have to develop now a program, a program for leaking out information. For destroying these people in the papers. That's one side of it. Had a gap in the conspiracy. The other side of it is the declassification. Declassification. And then leaking to or giving up to our friends the stories that they would like to have...such as the Cuban confrontation. Do you know what I mean? Let's have a little fun. Let me tell you what the declassification [of other administrations' papers] in previous years that helps us. It takes the eyes off of Vietnam. It gets them thinking about the past rather than our present problems. You get the point?

HALDEMAN: Yeah. Absolutely.

PRESIDENT NIXON: As a matter of fact, these papers, in a sense, well, in a sense, well, they're about...the Pentagon war papers, and so forth...[unintelligible] to be the war, in my opinion.

HALDEMAN: It was another day, it was other administrations, other casts of characters, you know.

PRESIDENT NIXON: So, I think, it was about the war, the war papers, but it's not about what we are doing in the war...Now, do you see what we need? I need somebody...I need really, rather than a rare sophisticated personality type, oh, like [John C.] Whitaker who will work his butt off and do it honorably. I really need a son of a bitch like Huston who will work his butt off and do it dishonorably. Do you see what I mean? Who will know what he's doing and I want to know, too. And I'll direct him myself. I know how to play this game and we're going to start playing it. Now, I don't want this sonofabitch Cooke in my presence. I don't trust him. I don't believe that story at all. Do you understand? I do not believe that story. You see, Bob, look. Do you know that putting the Chau story out, that was not [unintelligible]. Talking to that Ellsberg, he was working within the bureaucracy. Against us, you see. Chau is a communist. You understand? [unintelligible] He's on the left out there. Now, Jesus this is rough. You don't agree?

HALDEMAN: Yeah, well, I dunno.

PRESIDENT NIXON: But Cooke's [unintelligible] Mark my words, he'll turn on you. He'll turn on us.

SEGMENT THREE

KISSINGER: Well, Mr. President, our press response should be, we just won't make any further comment about negotiations. We won't negotiate it in the press. And imply that...if it goes on, we'll say sure, we replied to a proposal we made to them on May 31st.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Whatwhatwhat...in effect did they say?

KISSINGER: Well, they published the first two parts...

PRESIDENT NIXON: BOB!

PRESIDENT NIXON: You better fill Henry in, very briefly, on that thing at California you were telling about.

HALDEMAN: Out of this Ellsberg stuff, we have a report from a guy out in California.

PRESIDENT NIXON: -one of our investigations.

HALDEMAN: Who is at a football game in October. A Rams game in the coliseum. Sitting behind him were two men. Who were talking during the football game. One of them, out of the conversation was clear, was a member of the Business Executives for [Vietnam] Peace thing, and...he couldn't identify the men by name, but they were talking...one man asked the other, if his group was going to participate in the demonstration they were planning. He said, no, we had a bigger project under way that we're concentrating on. We have a plan for releasing, getting released a lot of secret government documents about how we got into the war, that are going to get released next summer. We have a man in Henry Kissinger's office who is working with us on it. And there are two men, in the White House, who will resign next summer, blast the war, and release material.

PRESIDENT NIXON: [unintelligible] over carefully, in terms of who might be [unintelligible] could walk out. But you've got to pretty well compartmentalize it.

KISSINGER: There's almost nobody, of my very immediate entourage, there are only about three or four people who have this stuff.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Sure.

KISSINGER: I think if they start leaking White House stuff, we should just publish all our peace efforts. Most of the stuff we're keeping secret, is peace stuff. We don't have a hell of a lot of stuff. Sure, some contingency plans. Once for-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Cambodia, Laos, and all that stuff.

KISSINGER: -for blockading Haiphong...but so what? We didn't do it. That would be known to more people, because that involved-

PRESIDENT NIXON: -but you have to...you know the story on Cooke now.

KISSINGER: No.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Elliot recently [unintelligible] well, the same factless ground that they used on Hiss, I'll never forget. They said, "Well, Hiss came from a good family, went to John Hopkins, magna cum laude at Harvard. He just couldn't be bad."

KISSINGER: Ellsberg came from a good family.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Sure. Alright. This is the same with Cooke. "His father was an admiral, how could he be bad?" Here's what you do. He admitted, he was confronted, he admitted that he did talk, he turned over, he went over and saw Ellsberg. Who was at Rand. So, therefore this was not wrong. And he showed him secret cables regarding Chau. Whom they both knew. From the Chau case.

KISSINGER: Oh yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: The leper.

KISSINGER: The one that was locked up by Thieu [Nguyen Thieu, President of South Vietnam].

PRESIDENT NIXON: The sonofabitch. And that later...those secret cables, those stories were credited in the Washington Star, by Doyle. That's how the Chau story came out. Rogers became concerned about it at that point...

KISSINGER: Oh yes, I remember it very well.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Rogers began [unintelligible]...Rogers became concerned. So then, they stuck with Rand. And Rand, at that point, apparently, moved on Ellsberg. Now, why the hell we weren't told about that, I don't know. The point, Henry, that disturbs me, is Elliot Richardson, defends this man because he didn't do anything wrong. Now, my point is, that Cooke should go to [unintelligible] unauthorized [unintelligible] he was working within the bureaucracy against what we are for. And the other thing he worked on [unintelligible] was his assistant, and he worked on the ceasefire proposals. You remember the Goddamn ceasefire proposals. [unintelligible] sonofabitch Harold.

KISSINGER: Every three months. Now one other...Mr. President, I may have-

PRESIDENT NIXON: And that guy...he didn't do anything illegal.

KISSINGER: There are two separate issues, Mr. President. He did not do anything illegal, but there is a need to know. Now, what need did Ellsberg have to know in the Chau case?

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's right.

KISSINGER: The mere fact that someone has a clearance doesn't entitle them to these documents. I have made wrong judgements in hiring people, and in retrospect I regret some of them, but when I caught somebody...I had a man called Davidson [NSC Council member Daniel Davidson]. Whom I caught on May 14, '69...On May 14, '69, talking three hours earlier, about your speech to a newspaperwoman, and I threw him out the next day. Cooke, in my judgement, Ellsberg, had no right to know this information. By that time he was known to-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Bob. I think you're being too soft on Cooke. Now, let me tell you why, explain it.

KISSINGER: I think that...there are two issues. One is, did Ellsberg have the clearance. And the answer is yes.

PRESIDENT NIXON: We know. We know all that...I told you Henry, everything was legal.

KISSINGER: The second point is, did Ellsberg have a need to know secret information that's given only to people who have the need to know.

PRESIDENT NIXON: There are many that have clearance, Bob, a million. You got people taking this to their secretary...why is he taking it to him? Except to screw the administration and our position on this. That's all.

KISSINGER: Everybody who knew Ellsberg at that point, knew he was a fanatical opponent of the war. Anybody who showed classified information to Ellsberg-

PRESIDENT NIXON: -let me explain, he was doing it for the purpose of getting Ellsberg information against the administration.

HALDEMAN: There's more detail on this...he makes the point that at the time of the Chau thing came up, some of those knew Chau...Cooke was one of those.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That was not our policy!

HALDEMAN: Ellsberg was another of those.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That was not our policy!

HALDEMAN: Bunker [Ellsworth Bunker] was another.

KISSINGER: But Bunker didn't leak stuff to the press.

HALDEMAN: Neither did these people at the time this was-

KISSINGER: Yeah, but if Cooke gave classified information to Ellsberg-

PRESIDENT NIXON: What in the hell's the difference? Showing it to him is giving it to him, Bob. Classified information is not supposed to turn up in the paper when somebody walks in the door.

KISSINGER: Bunker talked to Thieu.

HALDEMAN: Bunker talked to Thieu?

KISSINGER: Yeah, but that's a different thing from-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Here's what they were trying to do, to work through Ellsberg and the press, to put pressure on the administration. I don't believe in that. I do not believe in that. Okay, just don't let Elliot come in and [unintelligible] those sonsofbitches. Now, that's all. I just won't let him do it. Now Bob. When you get to Ehrlichman now, will you please get-I want you to find me a man by noon. I won't be ready until 12:30-a recommendation of the man to work directly with me on this whole situation. Do you know what I mean? I've got to have-I've got to have one-I mean, I can't have a high minded lawyer like John Ehrlichman or, you know, Dean or somebody like that. I want somebody just as tough as I am for a change. Just as tough as I was in the Hiss case. Where we won the case in the press. These Goddamn lawyers, you know, all fighting around about, you know-I'll never forget. They were all too worried about the [Charles] Manson case. I knew exactly what we were doing on Manson. You've got to win some things in the press. These kids don't understand. They have no understanding of politics. They have no understanding of public relations. John Mitchell is that way. John is always worried about is it technically correct? Do you think, for Christ sakes, that the New York Times is worried about all the legal niceties. Those sons of bitches are killing me. I mean, thank God, I leaked to the press [during the Hiss controversy]. This is what we've got to get-I want you to shake these sonofabitches up around here. Now you do it. Shake them up. Get them off their Goddamn dead asses and say now that isn't what you should be talking about. We're up against an enemy, a conspiracy. They're using any means. We are going to use any means. Is that clear? Did they get the Brookings Institute raided last night? No. Get it done. I want it done. I want the Brookings Institute's safe cleaned out and have it cleaned out in a way that it makes somebody else broke in.

KISSINGER: Ask Haig about Cooke. If Cooke gave this classified document to Ellsberg to read, he did it with...it's one thing for Bunker to talk to Thieu...

HALDEMAN: What he gave, is the cables from Bunker.

PRESIDENT NIXON: MY GOD. Unbelievable.

KISSINGER: Yeah, but Bunker...but Bunker was doing a lot of these things for the record. So that we could say we had made an effort.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's right. I sent a message to Bunker, saying, do everything you can. In fact, I said, treat Chau well. Because he's a potential moderate. Remember?

KISSINGER: Bunker is very careful...

HALDEMAN: Those papers at Rand, whatever it is they did, they ran in the Washington Star.

KISSINGER: Oh yeah, I remember them. But the fact is, that anybody who shows the papers to Ellsberg-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Bob, you know the Brookings thing? I've got to get that safe cracked.

SEGMENT FOUR

PRESIDENT NIXON: You tell Haig when you go through staff, he is to comb it with a fine tooth, you know what I mean? Do anything he needs. Wiretaps [unintelligible] Just to be sure we don't have a couple of them walking out. Only those that matter. There are three or four, Henry, that you never know. You never know these days. I don't trust anybody on our own staff. Except Haldeman, maybe.

KISSINGER: Oh, Haldeman you can trust.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's right. True.

KISSINGER: Ehrlichman you can trust. Oh, I think you can trust your own people.

PRESIDENT NIXON: What I meant is by I don't trust them...it's a matter of judgement. They know better than I do. Anbody does. You gotta watch that, you see.

KISSINGER: But they still wouldn't go to leaking...and nobody on your immediate staff...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh, our staff, never.

KISSINGER: I mean, the people who've been with you-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Never. Never.

KISSINGER: I mean the people who've been with you. That couldn't happen.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I trust their loyalty. But not their judgement.

KISSINGER: Now their judgement...that's a different matter. I'll be damned...when we came in, I deliberately took a few of these liberaloids in order to give ourselves some protective coloration.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Sure. Good idea.

KISSINGER: I thought I got rid of most of them...

PRESIDENT NIXON: You probably did.

KISSINGER: But what I never frankly considered was the lengths to which those bastards would go. I thought that when they had served their usefulness, I would get rid of them. It never occurred to me that there would be a wholesale theft of government documents. That just never crossed my mind. And as I look-

PRESIDENT NIXON: To get the document thing out of the way, here's what my plan is. I'm taking charge of it myself. These boys don't know how to play this game. It's gotta be played in the press. You see what I mean?

KISSINGER: Yes.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Mitchell, for Christ's sakes, talks about how...I was really surprised yesterday, he was so really overwhelmed by the repression argument. We don't want to...it doesn't make a difference.

KISSINGER: No difference.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I don't give a Goddamn about repression. Do you?

KISSINGER: No.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I don't think...I think we're losing [unintelligible], and if we do, it'll come back, but let me tell you what I'm going to say. Henry, I want this case fought in the press, let me show you what happened [in the Hiss case]. I know who was against it. [Tom] Clark, who literally became a judge in the Supreme Court, Tom Clark was the attorney general. He's a good man actually. He even told me that he was against it. If I were called before a grand jury in New York and told to give up the fucking papers to the grand jury, I [would have] refused, risking contempt from the grand jury, because I said I would not give power to the justices because they are out to clear Hiss. I played it in the press like a master. I leaked out the papers. I leaked out everything, I mean, everything that I could. I leaked out the testimony. I had Hiss convicted before he ever got to the grand jury. And then when the grand jury got there, the Justice Department trying desperately to clear him, couldn't do it. The grand jury indicted him and then a good Irish U.S. attorney, [Thomas] Murphy, convicted him. Now, why would I do that? I did that because I knew I was fighting people who had power and who'd go-the FBI didn't even play with it. Edgar Hoover, he didn't play with me until after they got the indictment...and you just read that story of the Hiss case and mine in Six Crises again you'll see what I mean. It's true, every bottom [unintelligible] quote [unintelligible] Now, how do you fight this [Ellsberg case]? You can't fight this with gentlemanly gloves. You appear to be. Now Ehrlichman is going to go forward on this thing [de-classification project] on this same basis...he's going to go forward on this basis of the, uh, orderly declassification. He'll post the Laird plan, so that's good, and I've got him in charge here. The second point is that beyond that, though, I am taking charge of all the rest. And I am going to have it done by somebody other than Ehrlichman.

KISSINGER: You mean, like, the Cuban missile crisis?

PRESIDENT NIXON: I mean everything. I mean, we will leak-we're going to leak out bits and pieces of-first of all, there are two different things. The conspiracy. All evidence we find with regard to the conspiracy is going to be leaked to columnists and we'll kill these sons of bitches. This Cooke, I'm going to get him killed. Let him get in the papers and deny it.

KISSINGER: Well, I, frankly, think he ought to be fired, Mr. President. Cooke admits now he gave it to Ellsberg, but he says Ellsberg was working for the Rand Corporation and, therefore-

PRESIDENT NIXON: And, therefore, it was not as legal. And that Bunker also was for Chau. Bunker also was-

KISSINGER: Cooke admits he gave to Chau papers to Ellsberg. And then they appeared in the Washington press.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Alright, that's the thing. I'm going to get these things out.

KISSINGER: Now, that conspiracy thing-

PRESIDENT NIXON: I'll go after the conspiracy. And then I'm also going to leaks some papers. But the reason they do that...is just let the papers talk about other periods of time for a while. Might give us a chance to play our own games.

KISSINGER: I understand.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Tough deal. But then, the idea, why does Elliot [Richardson] sit there and defend the son of a bitch.

KISSINGER: I must say, Mr. President, it's inexcusable. He ought to be out by the end of the day today...and Ellsberg-anyone who gives a paper to Ellsberg.

PRESIDENT NIXON: No. I'm not satisfied with this Cooke thing. I personally think he should be out. I will not talk to Elliot about it. Now you try to work it out any way you can. If he does not want him out, then I want you to find a way to get the story out on him. Now, do you understand what I'm talking about, Bob? All right. Get Colson in. Get a story out and get one to a reporter who will use it. Give them the facts and we'll kill him in the press. Is that clear? And I play it gloves off. Now, Goddamnit, get going on it.

KISSINGER: The president also mentioned to me, they heard from some investigators, who overheard a conversation saying that somebody on my staff was co-operating with these people.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. "The two on his staff will resign this summer, leak more documents from the NSC itself, and blast the war." Now, that's in October, this conversation occurred. All we want to say is, you've got to now comb that staff with a fine tooth comb, see that nobody has access to anything that you have doubts about. I mean, test 'em, you understand?

KISSINGER: The really hot stuff no one has access to.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh, that's right. Keep the hot stuff from...you've got your stuff pretty well locked up, don't you?

KISSINGER: That's kept on this side. On the other side, who could it be? I don't know-

PRESIDENT NIXON: It's the other side maybe.

KISSINGER: Well, in the Executive Office Building, there are a lot of guys doing analysis, but I don't know what good an analysis is to anybody.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Okay.

KISSINGER: Will you look over the staff when I'm gone?

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. I understand. I understand. Everybody gets the feel that he sees a communist under the bed every day, and you don't want to- But just be a little cautious now, that's all I'm saying. Any intellectual is tempted to put himself above the law. That's the rule I've known all my life. Any intellectual. Particularly backward schools they're from. If they're from any Eastern schools, or Berkeley. Those are particularly, the potential bad ones. Do you understand?

KISSINGER: Yes sir.