03[17:00] * Masclins (ircap@SolidIRC-eca3faa3.staticIP.rima-tde.net) has joined #judges4you
01[17:00] <%Chefy> Masclins and I just crashed during our game 3
01[17:00] <%Chefy> Masclins, were you attempting to use the red numbers on my creatures?
[17:00] <@Djinn> try reconnecting
[17:00] <Masclins> yes
01[17:00] <%Chefy> I have an access violation on my end
01[17:00] <%Chefy> so I cannot recconect
[17:00] <@Djinn> you can try
[17:00] <@Djinn> sometimes it works
[17:00] <Masclins> i think situation is pretty easy
[17:00] <Masclins> to recreate
[17:00] <Masclins> but as u want
01[17:01] <%Chefy> It won't let me
[17:01] <Masclins> i mean, restarting game
[17:01] <Masclins> and putting things as they were
[17:01] <@Djinn> Masclins was it the first time you were using damage counters on that match?
[17:01] <Masclins> probably it was
[17:01] <Masclins> no
[17:01] <Masclins> it was not
[17:01] <Masclins> i used the turn before for sure
[17:01] <Masclins> i used whenever there's a multiple block
[17:01] <Masclins> and turn before there was one
01[17:02] <%Chefy> Djinn, players aren't supposed to use those, ever...
01[17:02] <%Chefy> for this reason
[17:02] <@Djinn> Chefy, did you realise he was using damage counters?
01[17:02] <%Chefy> no
[17:02] <@Djinn> then how come you instantly made the right question when he came into the channel?
01[17:02] <%Chefy> all my cretures were going to die, so there was no point
[17:03] <@Djinn> I mean, during the match, did you realise he was using damage counters at any point?
[17:03] <&derflippi> Until further notice, you can do that advertising once/hour. No colors, No caps however.4
[17:03] <@Djinn> thanks Flippi
[17:03] <Masclins> it's easy to show i was using damage counters
[17:03] <Masclins> since turn before i never said which creature i was killing
[17:03] <Masclins> and he knew
01[17:04] <%Chefy> Djinn, He used them once, I was annoyed and then eventually I looked at saw the red numbers
[17:04] <Masclins> anyway, i insist is easy to recreate the game
[17:04] <@Djinn> Chefy, so you were aware your opponent was using damage counters, right?
[17:04] <@Djinn> Masclins, once the gamestate is lost, there's no easy way to recreate the game
[17:04] <Masclins> ok
01[17:05] <%Chefy> Djinn, no, I was not aware my opponent was going to use Red numbers every time despite it being frowned upon for the ML floor rules
[17:05] <@Djinn> if he used them once, why not twice
01[17:05] <%Chefy> There was no need?
01[17:06] <%Chefy> No decision point
[17:06] <@Djinn> don't you think that, for preventing future errors, you should have warned your opp of the risks of using damage counters?
01[17:06] <%Chefy> Sure, I guess as a judge it is my responsiblity to make sure players don't make errors against ML policy that leads to crashed games
[17:07] <@Djinn> it's good you understand that point
[17:07] <@Djinn> as such, you two are responsible for the loss of the gamestate
[17:07] <@Djinn> therefore, you two receive a game loss
[17:08] <@Djinn> so you still need to play until someone wins 2 mtg games
01[17:08] <%Chefy> I appeal
[17:08] <@Djinn> sure
[17:08] <@Djinn> derflippi Kaesh
03[17:08] * Clariax sets mode: +b *!*@SolidIRC-eca3faa3.staticIP.rima-tde.net
03[17:08] * Masclins was kicked by Clariax (Idle elsewhere, please)
[17:08] <&derflippi> im here
03[17:08] * Clariax sets mode: -b *!*@SolidIRC-eca3faa3.staticIP.rima-tde.net
03[17:09] * Masclins (ircap@SolidIRC-eca3faa3.staticIP.rima-tde.net) has joined #judges4you
[17:09] <&derflippi> Masclins caused the disconnection since he used counters.
[17:09] <&derflippi> As opponent, you dont have to tell your  opponent in advance to problems
[17:10] <&derflippi> you're not required to warn your opponent that he might commit an infraction
[17:10] <@Djinn> I thought that if he used them, it's our responsibility to warn them to prevent errors
[17:10] <&derflippi> you have to tell if an infraction happened.
[17:10] <&derflippi> it is not the players responsibility to warn opponents to not commit an infraction
[17:10] <&derflippi> therefore, I have to change DJinns ruling.
[17:10] <&derflippi> chefy did not commit an infraction against penalty guidelines
[17:10] <@Djinn> it is both players' responsibility to maintain the gamestate, as such, errors should be prevented ¬¬
[17:10] <&derflippi> he wasnt perfectly nice, but thats not needed.
[17:11] <Masclins> may i say
[17:11] <&derflippi> hes not required to be "nice" in that way.
[17:11] <Masclins> that it is the obligation of a player
[17:11] <Masclins> that if an error is done
[17:11] <Masclins> to advice or the player or the judge
[17:11] <Masclins> if he knows that error is being done?
[17:11] <&derflippi> masclins uses counters. these counters caused the error, by magic-league policy, when counters cause an error, the person using the counters is responsible for the crash.
[17:11] <Masclins> yeye, i don't dicuss my GL
[17:11] <&derflippi> Players of magic-league tournaments, especially Trials are supposed to read the penalty guidelines
[17:11] <Masclins> but in my oppinion
[17:12] <Masclins> (it was a mini)
[17:12] <@Djinn> that wasn't a trial was it?
[17:12] <&derflippi> and how to use the softwares without causing errors.
[17:12] <&derflippi> counters cause errors.
[17:12] <Masclins> sure, i wanna say
[17:12] <&derflippi> so dont use it
[17:12] <Masclins> that Chefy knew that
[17:12] <&derflippi> if it was trial or not is irrelevant
[17:12] <Masclins> and did not say me not to use the counters
[17:12] <Masclins> because he knew
[17:12] <Masclins> that if i crashed
[17:12] <Masclins> i'd been issued a GL
[17:13] <Masclins> that's why he did not prevent me to continue using counters
[17:13] <&derflippi> No m-l rule tells a player has to teach the opponent how to use the software.
[17:13] <Masclins> i'm not saying that
[17:13] <Masclins> i'm simply saying
[17:13] <Masclins> that by DCI policy rules
[17:13] <&derflippi> Therefore, chefy did nothing wrong.
[17:13] <Masclins> yes
[17:13] <Masclins> DCI policy rules
[17:13] <&derflippi> DCI matches are not played with MWS.
[17:13] <@Djinn> we don't follow DCI policy rules
[17:13] <Masclins> I thought we did
[17:13] <Masclins> sorry
[17:14] <@Djinn> if you have no further questions please /part You are not allowed to idle here
[17:14] <&derflippi> If my opponent in a DCI tournament puts a card from library to table with necropotence in play in his drawstep
[17:14] <&derflippi> i dont have to intervene "dont draw it!"
02[17:14] * %FoshM (FoshM@SolidIRC-ce027866.fios.verizon.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
[17:14] <&derflippi> i can wait until he actually committed an ifnraction (drawing extra cards/looking)
[17:14] <@Djinn> if he asks "is that fine?" and you say "ok go ahead" you are in big trouble
[17:14] <@Djinn> if then you call a judge
[17:14] <Masclins> yes
[17:14] <Masclins> and thats what happened
[17:15] <@Djinn> Masclins, the ruling was given
[17:15] <&derflippi> Did you ask your opponent "may i use counters?"
[17:15] <Masclins> i did
[17:15] <Masclins> the turn before
[17:15] <@Djinn> you did what, ask or use them
[17:15] <Masclins> use
[17:15] <@Djinn> use != ask
[17:15] <Masclins> and if that's an infraction he have to say that to a judge
[17:15] <@Djinn> we made the ruling which is reflected in our guidelines, I suggest you read them
[17:16] <Masclins> i've read
[17:16] <@Djinn> and if there's any problem/doubt about them, come back and we shall discuss them
[17:16] <Masclins> they are all readed
02[17:16] * %SwordSkill (SwordSkill@SolidIRC-c2483c2a.dyn.forthnet.gr) Quit (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
[17:16] <Masclins> The think is that I say Chefy has commited Cheating
[17:16] <@Djinn> are you accusing Chefy of cheating?
[17:17] <&derflippi> eating - Fraud: Fraud is cheating through any intentional act of misrepresentation. This includes lying to a judge, intentionally violating communication protocols, intentionally misreporting a match, intentionally making illegal plays hoping the opponent won't notice, and evading bans to join tournaments.
[17:17] <&derflippi> Which part do you refor to ?
03[17:17] * Akatsuki (MLa13a58@SolidIRC-05dc5554.fios.verizon.net) has joined #judges4you
03[17:17] * SwordSkill (SwordSkill@SolidIRC-b54f47ea.dsl.hol.gr) has joined #judges4you
03[17:17] * ChanServ sets mode: +h SwordSkill
03[17:17] * seedub (seedub@SolidIRC-fd4f69c8.res.rr.com) has joined #judges4you
[17:17] <Masclins> may u wait a sec until i look for the exact paragraph?
03[17:17] * maps (schlomo47@SolidIRC-1f901e00.nj.comcast.net) has joined #judges4you
[17:17] <&derflippi> Note about cheating: A judge does not need concrete proof to find a player guilty of cheating. The judge only needs to be reasonably sure that cheating took place. The remedy for all cheating infractions include long term bans from league channels.
03[17:17] * Akatsuki (MLa13a58@SolidIRC-05dc5554.fios.verizon.net) has left #judges4you
[17:17] <&derflippi>
[17:17] <&derflippi> 131. Cheating - Fraud: Fraud is cheating through any intentional act of misrepresentation. This includes lying to a judge, intentionally violating communication protocols, intentionally misreporting a match, intentionally making illegal plays hoping the opponent won't notice, and evading bans to join tournaments.
[17:17] <&derflippi>
[17:17] <&derflippi> Example: A player plays a Pyroblast on his opponent's Psychatog, with a Chalice of the Void set at 1, hoping that the opponent wouldn't notice and place his creature into the graveyard.
[17:17] <&derflippi>
[17:17] <&derflippi> Penalty: Disqualification at all REL
[17:17] <&derflippi>
[17:17] <&derflippi> 132. Cheating - Stalling: Stalling is the intentional act of taking advantage of a time limit. This is not the same as playing slowly, and this requires more evidence to prove.
[17:17] <&derflippi>
[17:17] <&derflippi> Example: A player intentionally slows their pace of play down towards the end of the match while leading 1-0.
[17:17] <&derflippi>
[17:17] <&derflippi> Penalty: Disqualification at all REL
[17:17] <&derflippi>
[17:17] <&derflippi> 133. Cheating - Other: This covers all forms of cheating not previously mentioned. This includes running cheat programs.
[17:17] <&derflippi>
[17:17] <maps> lol
[17:17] <&derflippi> Penalty: Disqualification at all REL
[17:17] <&derflippi> thats the complete entry about Cheating
[17:17] <&derflippi> hi maps, how can I help ?
[17:17] <maps> hi
[17:18] <maps> so
[17:18] <maps> i am playing seedub
[17:18] <maps> i see no response for a while so i type "."
[17:18] <maps> i get an error
[17:18] <maps> we reconnect
[17:18] <maps> and i have
[17:18] <maps> error
[17:18] <@Djinn> what happened prior to the first disconnect? Any arrows being drawn? Any damage counter being used? Any change of power or toughness of a permanent? Did any of you lose their internet connection?
[17:18] <maps> arrow drawn by him to my permanent
[17:19] <@Djinn> did you see that arrow?
[17:19] <seedub> cast a lightning bolt
[17:19] <maps> not until after the reconnect
[17:19] <seedub> and targeted
[17:19] <@Djinn> so it crashed, you reconnected successfully and there was an arrow there, right?
[17:19] <maps> yes
[17:19] <Masclins> Additionally, it is Fraud if a player (or teammate) notices an offense in their match and does not immediately call attention to it.
[17:20] <Masclins> that's what i was looking for
[17:20] <Masclins> he has demonstrated he knew perfectly puting damage counters is against the rule, and that if i crashed the game due to that
[17:20] <&derflippi> Using damage counters is not an offense.
[17:20] <Masclins> i'd been issued a GL
[17:20] <@Djinn> maps, did you move your permanent before the arrow was drawn?
[17:20] <&derflippi> If damage counters cause a game crash, then thats an infraction ( Tournament Error - Disconnection )
[17:20] <maps> no
[17:21] <maps> i played it
[17:21] <maps> ended turn
[17:21] <maps> but i never saw
[17:21] <maps> his turn
[17:21] <seedub> i didnt use bolt til my main
[17:21] <maps> yeah i never saw the bolt
[17:21] <maps> until after we reconnected
[17:21] <@Djinn> ok
[17:21] <Masclins> well, then sorry for al annoyance caused
[17:21] <@Djinn> then the arrow was not responsible for the disconnect
02[17:22] * Masclins (ircap@SolidIRC-eca3faa3.staticIP.rima-tde.net) Quit (Reason: • IRcap • 8.6 •)
[17:22] <@Djinn> ruling is: replay the game, no extension
[17:22] <&derflippi> You didnt cause annoyance, masclins. Im always happy to clarify the magic-league policies to the users.
[17:22] <maps> lol
[17:22] <seedub> =/
[17:22] <maps> ok
[17:22] <seedub> ok
[17:22] <seedub> ty
03[17:22] * seedub (seedub@SolidIRC-fd4f69c8.res.rr.com) has left #judges4you
[17:22] <maps> ty
03[17:22] * maps (schlomo47@SolidIRC-1f901e00.nj.comcast.net) has left #judges4you
[17:27] <@Djinn> I am publicly stating my stance towards Chefy vs Masclins' ruling: Chefy was aware his opp was using damage counters. Said nothing. Game crashed turn after because his opp kept on creating damage counters and hadn't been warned it was against m-l rules to use them by Chefy, not only a player who knows well our policy and rules but is also a judge. Once Masclins joined j4u, Chefy instantly asked if he had used damage counters. After som
[17:27] <@Djinn> I'll take that to the judge director, so that he can clarify whether that behaviour is expected from judges or should be discouraged.
[17:27] <&Kaesh> it's not against m-l rules
[17:27] <&Kaesh> to use damage counters
[17:28] <&Kaesh> flippi already said that
[17:28] <@Djinn> he said it's not an offence
[17:28] <&derflippi> I am not the highest authority on rulings however atm, so write your mail
[17:29] <@Djinn> I might or might not disagree with the ruling, I disagree with Chefy's behaviour as a judge who represents us all when he's playing, not only when he's running minis or making rulings.
[17:30] <&derflippi> when playing, he's a player
[17:30] <&derflippi> and should be treated as a player
[17:30] <&derflippi> not more, not less
03[17:30] * ik (eman1324@SolidIRC-ff99a153.wa.comcast.net) has joined #judges4you
03[17:30] * ChanServ sets mode: +h ik
[17:30] <@Djinn> wait
[17:30] <@Djinn> then I've been training my trainees all wrong all this time
[17:30] <@Djinn> because I tell them they represent the league
[17:30] <&derflippi> they do#
03[17:30] * Gypsy (ML7b54f5@SolidIRC-d266b037.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #judges4you
03[17:31] * Gypsy (ML7b54f5@SolidIRC-d266b037.dsl.bell.ca) has left #judges4you
[17:31] <%Tidus-> i thought manipulating any cards on your ops side was an offence
[17:31] <&derflippi> for rulings however
[17:31] <@Djinn> I made a ruling, he as a player appealed, it changed, I accepted it
[17:31] <%Tidus-> is it only an offence if i casues a crash?
[17:31] <%Tidus-> it*
[17:31] <&derflippi> for rulings however, playing judges = playing players
[17:31] <@Djinn> I am not talking about the ruling, I am talking about behaviour
[17:31] <&derflippi> yes tidus
[17:31] <%Tidus-> ah i see
[17:31] <&derflippi> Tournament Error - Disconnection
[17:32] <&derflippi> un-judgy behavior is not punished by the penalty guidelines
[17:32] <%Tidus-> in that case then what chefy did is technically not wrong
[17:32] <%Tidus-> morally slightly but not punishable
[17:32] <&Kaesh> there is no reason to compare failing to advise your opponent on what may happen to fraud
[17:33] <@Djinn> yeah, the player was turned down when he suggested fraud
[17:33] <@Djinn> Tidus-, morality should not be put at stake when you are representing a community
[17:33] <&derflippi> I divided "ruling" and "how judges should behave"
[17:34] <@Djinn> as I said, I accepted the ruling given by a J3 but certainly not how he behaved
03[17:34] * niknight (niknight@SolidIRC-ecf3cf63.ma.charter.com) has joined #judges4you