[19:23:20] BlindBeholder: hi, i was informed that you are the person i need to speak to about the cloning dilema
[19:23:36] +duel: sure, ask away
[19:25:01] BlindBeholder: okay, so pokemon showdown (ps) has a "zero tolerence policy" for the use of cheats and cheating devices
[19:25:20] BlindBeholder: but has allowed the duplication of pokemon for a number of years and continues to do so
[19:25:49] BlindBeholder: these duplications are performed with 3rd party software or hardware and are not an abuse of an in game mechanic (exploit)
[19:26:32] BlindBeholder: in turn, this destroys the value of shiny pokemon as a trade just as much as, if not more than genning (artificially inserting a new pokemon into the game using 3rd party software"
[19:27:15] BlindBeholder: as such in game activities such as shiny hunting are almost pointless as a majority of legitimately grinded shiny pokemon (especially pre gen 6) have imperfect stats
[19:27:17] +duel: you think we're violating PS's global rules then?
[19:27:46] BlindBeholder: you are kind of violating your own rulkes, but disallowing the discussion of the method
[19:27:51] BlindBeholder: as has been done for years
[19:28:03] +duel: our rules quite clearly allow cloning
[19:28:22] BlindBeholder: so you allow the use and discussion of powersave, jailbreaking etc?
[19:28:33] +duel: not in the room, no
[19:28:34] BlindBeholder: homebrew
[19:28:47] BlindBeholder: okay, how are these pokemon being duplicated?
[19:29:25] +duel: 3rd party tools, the discussion of which aren't allowed in the room
[19:29:53] BlindBeholder: okay, and you don;t see the issue of allowing use of something that is banned from discussion?
[19:30:26] BlindBeholder: so its bad enough that it can;t be talked about, but we can shyly copy rare pokemon and cripple the shiny trade value with it?
[19:30:43] BlindBeholder: you don;t see that as contradictory in any way?
[19:31:31] +duel: it's not about trade value, it's the fact that on this website we are not allowed to discuss the use of 3rd party tools
[19:32:30] BlindBeholder: okay, so you ban discussion of, but allow use of said software
[19:32:44] +duel: if used in accordance with our rules, yes
[19:32:45] BlindBeholder: and you think that makes sense?
[19:33:06] +duel: we have a dedicated discord server for this purpose
[19:33:40] BlindBeholder: right, this seems to be a common issue. instead of blindly following rules, try thinking critically here. i know that's what the rules say, i'm saying, maybe that does't makes sense or comes accross as hypocritical
[19:34:12] BlindBeholder: so if we make 99 duplicates of a 6iv shiny skarmory caught by user 77624
[19:34:39] BlindBeholder: and user 34586 catches a skarmory, with average stats, who's gonna trade for that skarm?
[19:34:50] BlindBeholder: no one, because everyone already has the 6iv one
[19:35:17] BlindBeholder: and user 34586 has wasted hours of his life trying to get into the shiny trade economy
[19:36:16] +duel: our goal here is to facilitate safe trading, ie no hacks. we define what our community views as a hack, and cloning a legitimate pokemon is within our rules. we don't care about the "economy", we allow users to do what they want with their pokemon
[19:37:04] BlindBeholder: so 99 flawless shiny skarmory has less impact than just injecting 99 skarmory into the game "because the community thinks it's different"
[19:37:51] +duel: yes, if you don't like that you're free to trade in another community
[19:38:15] BlindBeholder: 'we don't care about the "economy"' highly apparent. and you know full well other communities are either full of hacks, scammers or just dead.
[19:39:21] BlindBeholder: i'm putting forward an idea to have a completely legit, no 3rd party software/hardware system, as the only one on the internet, and all i'm getting back are the same copy-pasted "it's in the rules" or "if you don't like it, go elsewere" type answers
[19:40:29] +duel: if you can tell the difference between a correctly cloned pokemon and the original, AND can enforce such a no cloning rule, please tell me how
[19:43:48] BlindBeholder: can you currently tell the difference between a well genned pokemon and a real one? of course not.
[19:43:57] BlindBeholder: doesn;t mean you openly allow genning
[19:44:41] +duel: you can with a well trained eye, and if it's a very valuable mon we have proofing rules so one can't just gen it in
[19:44:49] BlindBeholder: again, if 3rd party software, homebrewed consoles or powersave devices are needed, it's not legit.
[19:45:29] +duel: that's your opinion, it's a valid opinion, and it's an opinion held by other communities
[19:45:30] BlindBeholder: unfortunatyely, a well genned pokemon, will just look like a clone. they will gen it to have the correct secret i.d
[19:46:35] BlindBeholder: so your argument is, well we can;t proove that 2 pokemon have identical id's and it seems less bad than other hacking, so we're gonna ban it
[19:46:40] BlindBeholder: *not gonna ban it
[19:48:16] BlindBeholder: okay, going forward to my my next point. imagine. i'm at the VGC national top cut. myself, joe bloggs and timmy are all using a japanese exclusive event pokemon (special move otherwise unobtainable on this pokemon)
[19:48:23] +duel: i'm saying a clone of a legitimate pokemon is a legitimate pokemon
[19:48:30] +duel: because they're the same
[19:48:42] +duel: no difference whatsoever
[19:48:50] BlindBeholder: but oh no, in top cut, we get a very strict hack check. and oh no, oh no, all of our special pokemon have identical information.
[19:49:20] BlindBeholder: yes, it's legitimate for someone to have unlimited shinies
[19:49:35] BlindBeholder: so long as they can keep duplicating the first one, got ya
[19:49:53] BlindBeholder: sending this video to callum, see what he can do with it
[19:50:09] BlindBeholder: see what the pokemon community outside of ps users think to this
[19:50:43] +duel: we're operating within our rules, as is our right
[19:50:45] BlindBeholder: as a global voice, you seem to be completely unwilling to hear any side of this other than what is written
[19:51:08] BlindBeholder: hacking has a fine line, that smogon bcked showdown is willing to cross, so long as it follows cirtain criteria
[19:51:35] +duel: i've said your opinion is valid, it's just not what this community follows
[19:51:47] BlindBeholder: you remember that showdown is a representitive of smogon, right?
[19:51:55] +duel: because we view clones of legitimate pokemon as legitimate
[19:52:10] +duel: and smogon doesn't allow cloning?
[19:52:22] +duel: i think you might be mistaken
[19:52:50] BlindBeholder: yes the first one is legitiimate, but without hax it would be impossible for 99 people to have the same pokemon. so everything you have done to that pokemon is illegitimate to the point that i can't go to the wifi chat and ask about it
[19:53:20] BlindBeholder: it's so okay, that the method is banned from discussion
[19:54:00] BlindBeholder: smogon may allow cloning, i know for sure pthe pokemon company don't
[19:54:18] BlindBeholder: and they administer VGC
[19:54:24] BlindBeholder: and they hack check VGC
[19:54:55] +duel: and their hack checks won't detect cloning
[19:55:24] +duel: because, again, it's the same as a legitimate pokemon
[19:55:24] BlindBeholder: so your website is not only devaluating rare pokemon for younger/less experienced players, making it a dificult economy to join, but is also having it's clones go out to vgc players who then may fail a hack check when them and another players mons have identical information
[19:55:35] BlindBeholder: yes, I have seen this happen
[19:55:43] BlindBeholder: in manchester, 2016
[19:56:00] BlindBeholder: 2 players had to leave because thy had an identicle pokemon
[19:56:59] BlindBeholder: afk - 3-5 mins
[19:58:34] +duel: i guess i'm confused about what your ultimate goal for this conversation is
[20:00:24] +duel: we have strict rules in place to prevent the trading of hacked pokemon by our definition, which we enforce unconditionally
[20:01:04] BlindBeholder: but by definition, using a 3rd party program to manipulate a game, in anyway is cheating or hacking
[20:01:13] BlindBeholder: that rule contradicts your cloning rule
[20:01:41] +duel: i hear you, but the pokemon is legitimate
[20:02:13] BlindBeholder: no, the originally obtained pokemon is legitimate, every copy was obtained using a cheating device.
[20:02:28] +duel: like, it's an exact, down to the last detail, copy of a legitimate pokemon
[20:02:30] BlindBeholder: and is no different or less damaging than just genning it
[20:03:02] BlindBeholder: but still a copy, which devaluates hours of grinding for legitimate shiny hunters
[20:03:29] +duel: i can RNG the exact same pokemon over and over again in gen 3, is that cheating?
[20:04:17] BlindBeholder: no, because you've timed an encounter, not modified your game save. that would be classed as an exploit of game mechanics
[20:05:13] +duel: so if two players were banned for having this same pokemon, would it be a rightful ban?
[20:05:58] +duel: GF's own games have had a history of generating the same pokemon
[20:06:24] BlindBeholder: well their pokemon were identical. proving they were duplicates. which is not allowed in VGC.
[20:06:51] +duel: i'm saying i can use in-game mechanics to do this, no cloning at all!
[20:07:14] BlindBeholder: so allow that, and dissallow the use of cheating software
[20:07:19] +duel: not even a glitch
[20:07:21] BlindBeholder: this is my point
[20:07:38] BlindBeholder: the difference is, rng abuse actually takes skill
[20:07:48] BlindBeholder: not copy-paste pokemon - profit
[20:07:54] +duel: it's not enforceable to disallow cloning, do you see my point?
[20:08:41] +duel: how am i supposed to track down every identical copy of a pokemon in my room?
[20:08:46] +duel: i can't
[20:09:16] +duel: i can only listen when users tell me they might've been traded a hack, and i investigate
[20:09:29] +duel: and i enforce my room's rules
[20:09:33] BlindBeholder: no it isn't, absolutely, outside of keeping an online database including pokemon and trainer id's in the trade network. but it's better than literally listing people who can make unlimited copies of a mon on your rooms into
[20:09:49] BlindBeholder: *intro
[20:10:04] BlindBeholder: it would be better to list rng abuse guides
[20:10:19] BlindBeholder: at least i don;t have to void my warrenty doing that
[20:11:07] +duel: it comes down to personal preference, if you don't want to trade for clones, that's your right!
[20:11:17] +duel: don't let us stop you
[20:11:52] +duel: there's other communities that think like you do, maybe this isn't the one for you
[20:12:12] BlindBeholder: so why not extend that to - if you want to trade for genned mons, that's up to you? like i said, theres a line, and this site just seems to decide when it's okay to cross it for itself
[20:12:39] +duel: because we don't want genned mons in our room, we don't like them
[20:13:05] BlindBeholder: and a lot of users don;t want cloned pokemon, we don;t like them
[20:13:29] +duel: if i want to give away clones of my shinies in a community that allows it, what's the harm?
[20:13:49] BlindBeholder: and unfortunatelly, just like you can't stop people cloning pokemon, you can't enforce users letting others know if the pokemon they're trading is cloned or not
[20:14:18] BlindBeholder: the harm is the fact it removes any and all trade value from legitimate shinies, that users spent hours obtaining
[20:14:31] +duel: they're aware it probably is cloned, we allow cloning, we have approved cloners
[20:14:56] +duel: if we don't clone here it'll get cloned elsewhere, and then it might be done wrong
[20:15:30] +duel: we just enforce our rules, and our rules allow cloning of legitimate pokemon
[20:15:30] BlindBeholder: oh they are anyway. other platforms are swarmed with "cloning service for financial gain"
[20:15:55] BlindBeholder: hell, i can't ask for a mon in a trade on FB groups without being hounded to buy a flawless genned one
[20:16:07] BlindBeholder: and unfortunately, outside of that, showdown is all we have
[20:16:47] +duel: and that's the great thing about here, we don't allow that stuff to be traded. in fact, if your pokemon is rare enough we require proof
[20:18:27] +duel: when this room was started we were given a simple task, "don't allow hacked pokemon to be traded" and we're doing our best
[20:19:08] BlindBeholder: and i admit that's great! and as an ex hack-checker i loved that roll, (old account)
[20:19:08] BlindBeholder: but allowing the use of 3rd party software to duplicate pokemon is, by definition hacking
[20:19:39] +duel: it's hacking, does it create a hacked pokemon? not by our definition
[20:19:49] BlindBeholder: allow rng abuse, heck, back when x/y first came out, you could power off at just the right time in a trade to duplicate
[20:20:29] BlindBeholder: right. so imagine i have a $20 bill. i worked very hard as at my paper round all week and my boss gave me $20
[20:20:44] BlindBeholder: i then give it to a guy who can duplicate this $20 indefinately
[20:20:53] BlindBeholder: what happens to the value of that $20>
[20:20:55] BlindBeholder: ?
[20:21:35] +duel: if the $20 bill is a pokemon, we don't care
[20:21:53] +duel: value is subjective
[20:22:09] BlindBeholder: okay, well you're $20 becomes just enough to buy a loaf of bread, as the influx of copies reduces the value of the dollar
[20:22:31] BlindBeholder: basic economics. and a similar thing happens here
[20:22:33] +duel: get another, more valuable $20 bill then
[20:22:56] BlindBeholder: oh my, that just told me a lot about your age
[20:22:58] +duel: it's not our job to keep the economy in check
[20:24:08] BlindBeholder: no it isn't (thankfully). but shinies are sought after due to rarity, if you remove rarity (with methods such as cloning) they're no longer special.
[20:24:33] +duel: that's your opinion, it's not our job to keep them special
[20:24:56] BlindBeholder: hell, i stopped shiny hunting years ago. you spends days getting that shiny training it up, getting into a battle, to find your opponent has all the shinies because they're everywhere
[20:25:11] BlindBeholder: no, it's your job to stop hacking. this is hacking. smh
[20:25:43] BlindBeholder: as someone who doesn;t understand monetary value, i don;t expect this to go much firther. can i talk to a different global voice please.
[20:25:49] +duel: we stop hacked pokemon, we can't control "hacking" in general
[20:26:01] BlindBeholder: (ignore typo's, touvch typing on a new keyboard)
[20:26:27] +duel: this is our stance on this, you won't find anything different, there's no higher authority in the room
[20:27:11] BlindBeholder: well, it's clear that you're not open to change, or any other opinion. and i still can;t get over the "get a more valuable $20" comment
[20:27:16] BlindBeholder: that was a joke right?
[20:27:32] +duel: yes, because pokemon aren't bills
[20:27:41] BlindBeholder: like global driver clearly understands that printing more money just reduces the value, right?
[20:27:42] +duel: they're extremely different concepts
[20:28:02] BlindBeholder: like a great example of this is japanese yen vs the euro
[20:28:52] BlindBeholder: how did you become room owner?
[20:29:18] BlindBeholder: i'm not trying to be mean. I expected to have an adult conversation
[20:29:53] BlindBeholder: and my alagory got taken literally
[20:30:33] +duel: i assume it's because they appreciate my contributions to the room
[20:31:19] BlindBeholder: (alagory means story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one)
[20:32:52] BlindBeholder: as in in my alagory, the $20 was a shiny pokemon, the counterfeit money maker was a cloner, the gdp drop of the dollar value was the wothlessness of legitimate shinies. all caused by open cloning
[20:33:24] +duel: i mean, i think i've made my argument for this, we have our definition for what a hacked pokemon is, it's not our job to monitor the trade value
[20:34:26] BlindBeholder: you ever seen them tech support scam baiting video's on youtube?
[20:34:57] +duel: sure
[20:35:03] BlindBeholder: and every time the scam baiter says "that's not a virus scan, it's the tree command" they go back to their scam script. kinda know how they feel now
[20:35:32] BlindBeholder: though you're not a scammer, at all i hope, you're completely unwilling to deviate from the script
[20:35:57] +duel: we were never going to change our view on this, it's allowed and we don't see any reason to not allow it
[20:36:05] BlindBeholder: i've given many
[20:36:15] +duel: and we don't agree with them