stuff with ? on it represent claims I think were not proven well or just confused me

if i mix up names it is because I cannot Japanese, sorry!!!

***

Ama R1

***

- Heisuke will look for a sniping position at go, Megumi abuses shadows for stealth attacks
- Heisuke bird can be used to track, can snipe in dark lighting, can ricochet shots at distance
- Megumi can use his dog to track, dog can close distance through shadows
- Opposing team lacks options in spotting/tracking team

- Heisuke bullets can pierce Sakamoto, implied to do more if not dodged, Sakamoto is giga piercing resistant
- Megumi attacks pierce characters stated to be > shotguns/pistols/tanks in durability

- Heisuke can ricochet headshots behind cover, shoot much faster than regular humans
  - Kuuga/W have poor interactions with gunmen
- Megumi uses shadows for surprise attacks, speed sufficient to deflect close range arrows
  - Kuuga doesn't visibly operate on the same scale of speed / is susceptible to surprise attacks, W gets attacked from behind from slower attacks

- Megumi can summon rabbits as a distraction, crowd control with water elephant, use bird for vertical escapes, toad for horizontal escapes
- Heisuke compliments this due to sniping distracted enemies + covering allies

***

Spot Feedback

Overall this is a strong start. There are some weaker points in this argument that could be picked at with intense scrutiny but it has clear understandable wincons.

***

Doncl R1

***

- Kuuga tracks opponents from very far away with hearing, works on invisible opponents across a city
- W has a device that maps 5 km radius, takes photos in dark, high resolution, which can display to Stag Phone (?)
  - DenDen sensor has night vision (?)

- Heisuke bird is easily noticeable
- Dog needs to travel on foot to track opponents
- This will clue the riders that they are being tracked, can be attacked

- Kuuga has a weapon that can kill a guy resistant to gunfire, can spread shots
- Shots can be fired and hit from large distances in the air
- Claims opponents have nothing listed that would let them survive this

- The above makes Megumi a nonissue and this a 2v1 in close range
- Kuuga while purple is >> bullets and metal/concrete piercing durability
  - Can become more durable than this
- W can take concrete-cutting car metal cutting slices, takes blasts that carve buildings

- W can catch fast moving projectiles shaped like bullets
- W has stretchy arm what is also fast, can grapple and give better melee range
- Cedes Kuuga is slow

- Megumi durability bad
- Kuuga punches can floor enemies that survive falling hard enough to break through architecture
  - Has blade that scales to piercing scaling his durability scales to
- W shatters rubble with hits, scales above opponents who go through walls, slams into ground with stretchy arm hard,

***

Spot Feedback

I think a couple points are decent counters to Ama's post, others are not very well established. Like three different devices are brought up for W with linked scans of exposition dumps, but Docl doesn't establish well what those items are, how W uses them in the show, et cetera.

I don't think Docl focuses on the right points and should engage a bit more with Ama's arguments. Having specific wincons is good but having A Wincon that requires certain enemies to get taken out in a specific order is extremely hard to argue properly. Additionally, a lot of arguments like Ama's dog and Sakamoto scaling was just not discussed.

Ceding one of your characters is slow is generally a really bad idea.

***

Ama R2

***

- Kuuga senses are risky to use and require him to do nothing else while listening
- Vertical mobility just makes him an easy target in the air
- Calls out W's senses just being text descriptions and not actual feats

- Opponents have no reason to suspect bird is enemy or attack it randomly
- Calls out lack of real rebuttals to Divine Dog, Dog is = Megumi and stealth attacks

- Tracking in general benefits Ama's team more than Donc's

- Heisuke doesn't need durability/dodging because he snipes at range
- Kuuga's ranged weapon is slow/telegraphed, and requires line of sight, Heisuke does not
- Kuuga being able to hit Heisuke means Heisuke can hit Kuuga, featdump for Heisuke accuracy
- Megumi assists Heisuke by taking advantage of telegraphed attacks and distracting them for easy shots

- Heisuke scaling to Sakamoto is >>> Rider feats
  - Provides other feats for Heisuke's rounds being Good Bullets(tm), superior to 50 cal
- Megumi piercing is still > tank rounds, tank rounds pierce good
  - All other summons have good concrete busting

- Points out speed being largely uncontested
- Projectiles are visibly slower than bullets, W fights at the speed of a normal dude

- Megumi durability downplayed, wood feat is good and he can take concrete-wall busting hits

***

Spot Feedback

Ama did very well at calling out stuff that was just not contested by Doncl and capatilized on wincons and arguments Doncl just did not touch, while also meaningfully engaging with Doncl's wincons.

***

Doncl R2

***

- Kuuga hearing can be done in combat, in the order of seconds
- Can still dodge attacks if getting a negative reaction to senses
- Can jump to higher ground by turning blue, navigate buildings fast
- Blue form time limit can be avoided by just switching between other forms

- two minute video example of Bat Shot being used
- even longer video example of it streaming video
- text infodumps are legit

- bird looks sus
- Phillip can go through mental book library to determine bird is sus
 - I do not know who Phillip is or what the Gaia Library is, this is not immediately apparent in the linked feats
- W has dealt with craaaazy things before
- they don't need to kill the bird to take it out

- calls out curse - tank scaling for Megumi as vague and bad
- Megumi fails to pierce a special grade curse with sword
- special grade curse is pierced by supersonic blood that only pierces metal
- Divine Dog only scratches a high grade curse, damage came from another dude
- special grade curse the dog pierced scales below the above one (?)

- points out Heisuke's lack of argued durability or speed
- Kuuga has better mobility than Heisuke, start shooting first
- Heisuke will split up with Megumi as argued by Ama (??)

- W not threatened by electricity
- W has concrete crater durability, scales to concrete wall busters
- Kuuga takes hits from metal indenters/concrete wall crackers/asphalt busters
 - cedes kuuga would have issues with summons

- W bullets look slow because slow motion also move visibly fast
- it's a life action show guys are not moving fast 24/7
- moves faster in manga (?)
- blue/yellow form can projectile spam
- W can grapple, has good lifting feats

***

Spot Feedback

There are some good points here, better than last response. I feel like it was good to call out the special grade curse scaling as vague and not well defined, which put a good amount of doubt in the ability for the Riders to be pierced by Megumi. That said a lot of that would have been better R2 instead of on the last response.

That said, there's also just a lot of effort allocated to points that don't really go anywhere, and don't really push forward clear wincons outside of assuming Heisuke dies extremely fast.

***

Overall

***

Ama wins.

Overall I don't think Doncl was able to meaningfully contest Heisuke's advantages as a sniper. While I believe that Kuuga can jump to a vantage point faster than Heisuke can get to one, I don't believe Kuuga's ability to actually engage in a long range snipeoff is meaningful enough for him to even take advantage of getting the high ground. Heisuke is ostensibly better at shooting things than Kuuga, Ama provided more feats, better feats, barely contested feats for Heisuke while also calling out Kuuga's shooting ability as slow and inefficient, which I believe. I also believe that Heisuke can kill or meaningfully injure the Riders with rounds from his guns, a lot of points brought up by Ama's R2 in this was just not touched by Doncl.

Which runs into the main issue with Doncl in this debate - his wincons and arguments all sort of assumes Heisuke would die immediately to a snipeofff and Ama would be left with a 2v1. While some of the arguments against Megumi were good, Doncl ceded a metric ton of ground on this debate, especially in regards to speed, making me have no reason to think the Riders can win a fight vs. Megumi and his summons without severe advantages that just don't exist.

My advise to Doncl: Try to avoid making an extremely specific set of wincons that assumes the battle will play out a certain way. I think you have the capacity to put meaningfully good arguments and rebuttals down and engage on points well, you just seem to have issues picking out the most relevant things to tackle - I would have put less character space in how Kuuga and W would be suspicious of the bird and more in how they can deal with bullets from Heisuke, or other wincons pushed forward by Ama. Also, make sure to explain your Kamen Rider arguments in a way any reader can understand - I could not for the life of me understand some points and having to slog through multiple-minute videos just to check feats was extremely annoying.