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JaysonSunshine

The End of First Principles Reasoning

JaysonSunshine
Jun 5th, 2018
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  1. 3:07:38 PM+LordGloomthere was a law in alabama taht said you have to have separate cars for blacks and whites
  2. 3:07:58 PM+RenjinAlabama is a shitty state with a shitty government.
  3. 3:08:05 PM+RenjinOne of the worst states in the USA.
  4. 3:08:17 PM+LordGloomi gues for a state it can have separate but equal
  5. 3:08:23 PM+LordGloom but i dont want the feds doing that
  6. 3:08:52 PM+RenjinNo, it cannot.
  7. 3:08:57 PM+LordGloomi mean suppose it has some poverty villages. and suppose it houses the poor males on an opposite side of the state from poor females
  8. 3:08:59 PM+RenjinWhy are you so uneducated on this topic you care a lot about.
  9. 3:09:00 PM+LordGloomso they dont breed
  10. 3:09:26 PM+LordGloomrenjin because i concentrate on favoring the right policy, not learning history
  11. 3:09:32 PM+RenjinSeparate but equal was ruled by SCOTUS in Brown v. Board of Education (1954) to violate the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection clause.
  12. 3:09:45 PM+LordGloombut it really doesnt
  13. 3:09:48 PM+RenjinLordGloom: That sounds like a really dumb strategy.
  14. 3:09:58 PM+RenjinLordGloom: How would you know, given you don't learn the history.
  15. 3:10:15 PM+RenjinHow do you even know what Brown v. Board of Education (1954) says.
  16. 3:10:16 PM+LordGloomi am good at simulating policies i guess
  17. 3:10:49 PM+Renjin"I gues for a state it can have separate but equal"
  18. 3:10:52 PM+RenjinThat's what ya said.
  19. 3:10:56 PM+RenjinYou didn't simulate anything.
  20. 3:10:59 PM+RenjinNo, no state can do that.
  21. 3:11:08 PM+RenjinSCOTUS ruled that such policies violate the Constitution.
  22. 3:11:16 PM+LordGloomhow does a segregated school violate equal protection/
  23. 3:11:18 PM+LordGloom?
  24. 3:11:19 PM+RenjinAnd states are forbidden from having laws which violate the Constitution.
  25. 3:11:38 PM+Renjinhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education
  26. 3:12:05 PM+Renjin"Handed down on May 17, 1954, the Warren Court's unanimous (9–0) decision stated that "separate educational facilities are inherently unequal." As a result, de jure racial segregation was ruled a violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the United States Constitution."
  27. 3:12:18 PM+RenjinAll racial segregation is illegal in the USA.
  28. 3:12:27 PM+LordGloomi would say it is unequal in one way. in that a white is not allowed to go to the colored school and the colored is
  29. 3:12:38 PM+RenjinThere are no "colored" schools.
  30. 3:12:52 PM+RenjinAll racial segregation is illegal.
  31. 3:13:21 PM← Banquo has quit (Quit:)
  32. 3:13:29 PM+LordGlooma state should have to provide certain things to its citizenry
  33. 3:13:36 PM+RenjinAgreed.
  34. 3:13:45 PM+Renjin(Also, too vague to be meaningful)
  35. 3:13:47 PM← sexbee has quit (Ping timeout)
  36. 3:13:50 PMⓘ Debates set mode +l 72
  37. 3:14:08 PM+LordGlooma parent should have to provide certain things to its child
  38. 3:14:24 PM+RenjinAgreed.
  39. 3:14:29 PM+LordGloombut a parent is allowed to go above an d beyond that for one of its chidlren and not the other if it wants
  40. 3:14:29 PM+Renjin(Also, too vague to be meaningful)
  41. 3:14:41 PM+RenjinAgreed.
  42. 3:14:49 PM+RenjinStates cannot do that on the basis of race.
  43. 3:14:56 PM+RenjinYou can do it on the basis of other criteria, though.
  44. 3:14:59 PM+RenjinLike GPA.
  45. 3:14:59 PM+LordGloomshould they be allowed to
  46. 3:15:01 PM+RenjinNo.
  47. 3:15:04 PM+LordGloomwhy
  48. 3:15:13 PM+RenjinIt leads to violation of human rights.
  49. 3:15:20 PM+LordGloomwell if its doing the adequate thing for all
  50. 3:15:22 PM+LordGloom and more for some
  51. 3:15:28 PM+LordGloommaybe it isnt
  52. 3:15:31 PM@ProfFarnsworthMainstream Democrats are trash: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/05/howard-schultz-rips-democrats-for-veering-too-far-left.html
  53. 3:15:41 PM+LordGloomsomething about the taxes bothers me though
  54. 3:15:52 PM+RenjinLordGloom: Do you have a single example from history for your case?
  55. 3:16:01 PM+LordGloomi dont know
  56. 3:16:07 PM+LordGloomi am not thinking of one
  57. 3:16:15 PM+LordGloom i am just considering what is the right way to govern
  58. 3:16:16 PM+RenjinI can't think of any.
  59. 3:16:19 PM+LordGlooma state
  60. 3:16:34 PM+LordGloomit seems stupid and disatracting tothink up some real case from history
  61. 3:16:35 PM+RenjinThe right way to govern includes not using the non-existent race category to modify state policy.
  62. 3:16:37 PM+LordGloomfor me
  63. 3:16:39 PM+Renjinheh
  64. 3:16:44 PM+RenjinStupid and distracting
  65. 3:16:51 PM+RenjinYou'd make a terrible engineer
  66. 3:16:56 PM+RenjinHere's what you're proposing
  67. 3:17:11 PM+RenjinHey, Google, you know you've spent like 15 million human hours making your Google search engine?
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  69. 3:17:29 PMⓘ ChanServ set mode +o sexbee
  70. 3:17:35 PM+RenjinAnd that was on the basis of a lot of expert, planned knowledge, but also integrated iterative, empirical data from real world usage of your system with the rest of the world?
  71. 3:17:40 PM+RenjinWell, I think that's dumb and distracting
  72. 3:17:57 PM+RenjinWhat I propose, instead, is to build a search engine from the bottom up on only first principles, with no empirical data
  73. 3:18:09 PM+RenjinOf course, though you actually want to do this for an entire civilization, rather than a search engine
  74. 3:18:16 PM+RenjinWhich is perhaps a trillion times more complex
  75. 3:18:18 PM→ Marceline has joined
  76. 3:18:28 PMⓘ Mabus set mode +v Marceline
  77. 3:18:36 PM+RenjinYou can't build a civilization on first principles or simulation, alone
  78. 3:18:41 PM+RenjinThough, that is a *tool* to be used
  79. 3:18:57 PM+RenjinNo branch of engineering does your approach
  80. 3:18:58 PM+RenjinNone
  81. 3:19:05 PM+RenjinWhat does every single branch of engineering in existence do?
  82. 3:19:13 PM+RenjinHighly detailed specification of standards
  83. 3:19:16 PM+RenjinPrecise measuring
  84. 3:19:19 PM+RenjinIterative exploration
  85. 3:19:23 PMⓘ Marceline is now known as Guest70991
  86. 3:19:43 PM+RenjinIt's fine to try an entirely different approach than iteratively improving on the SOTA method
  87. 3:19:46 PM+RenjinThat happens all the time
  88. 3:19:54 PM+RenjinYou, offline from reality, start testing your approach
  89. 3:19:54 PM→ Forest` has joined
  90. 3:19:54 PMⓘ ChanServ set mode +o Forest`
  91. 3:20:07 PM+RenjinOnce your results get similar or better to the SOTA, we start expanding the scope of your deployment
  92. 3:20:10 PM+RenjinEvery branch of engineering in existence
  93. 3:20:12 PM+RenjinSpace ships
  94. 3:20:14 PM+RenjinDrug delivery
  95. 3:20:18 PM+RenjinSoftware control
  96. 3:20:22 PM+RenjinMedical equipment
  97. 3:20:24 PM+RenjinBuild bridging
  98. 3:20:26 PM+RenjinEvery branch
  99. 3:20:40 PM+RenjinCivilization is a trillion times more complex than all of those
  100. 3:20:50 PMⓘ Debates set mode +l 75
  101. 3:20:53 PM+RenjinNow, you've got to have some basic insight into that, right?
  102. 3:21:00 PM+RenjinAnd that's why I infer you don't care about making a good civilization
  103. 3:21:12 PM+RenjinYou just wish to have your race systems that make your emotions feel good
  104. 3:22:52 PM← brad70 has left
  105. 3:23:45 PM+RenjinWhy don't we do only first principles/simulation for engineering?
  106. 3:23:53 PM+RenjinBecause of empirical data, you know, 'history'
  107. 3:24:08 PM+RenjinIn the history of humans, we have records on how complex of models humans can operator in their working memory
  108. 3:24:27 PM+RenjinThose models are orders and orders of magnitude less complex than what computers and written documents can handle
  109. 3:24:47 PM+RenjinEverything you're doing can be incorporated into the iterative, computational engineering approach
  110. 3:24:52 PM+RenjinYour approach is not an alternative
  111. 3:24:56 PM+RenjinIt is *strictly* worse
  112. 3:26:41 PM+RenjinWhat does the state of the art look like for this area?
  113. 3:26:44 PM+RenjinReinforcement learning
  114. 3:26:53 PM+RenjinWhich is called other things in other branches of knowledge
  115. 3:27:51 PM+RenjinEngineering: Optimal control
  116. 3:28:06 PM+RenjinMathematics: Operations research
  117. 3:28:10 PM+RenjinEconomics: Bounded rationality
  118. 3:28:18 PM+RenjinNeuroscience: Reward system
  119. 3:28:27 PM+RenjinComputer science: Machine learning
  120. 3:28:44 PM+RenjinWhat is the paradigm of reinforcement learning?
  121. 3:28:57 PM+RenjinYou, or all humans combined, are an agent exploring a space we don't know the structure of
  122. 3:29:04 PM+RenjinThat's the Government space
  123. 3:29:20 PM+RenjinThe space is modeled as a partially observable markov decision process
  124. 3:29:38 PM+RenjinYou can make partial observations of the environment state through a mediating function
  125. 3:29:55 PM+RenjinYou, in model-based RL, maintain a model of the environment you've explored so far
  126. 3:30:15 PM+RenjinThen, you balance exploration and exploitation as you try to optimize some score
  127. 3:30:36 PM+RenjinThe value function for us, is also something we're learning, as we don't know precisely what we're looking for in Government space
  128. 3:30:58 PM+RenjinThis approach allowed Google to make the best chess engine, ever, better than every human, ever, in 4 hours on a modern cluster
  129. 3:31:47 PM+RenjinThis approach strictly subsumes 'first principles' reasoning which is strictly obsolete at this point in history
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