Revert the patch

Tone 8:21 PM
7.0 had input lag worse than tag2 emulator
leroy release
system changes are the biggest reason why its so bad


Speedkicks 8:22 PM
not just system changes but
design philosophy
there have been slight breaks from design philosophy in the past
Tekken 7 S3 and S4 stuff raised question marks
Leroy was not a big freak out to the community because he was just broken
But because he was broken in ways that seemingly intentionally went against past Tekken design
Same for Fahk


PhiDX 8:25 PM
The i12 mid CH stood out the most to me, as well as having an orbital and god parry and hellsweep but I will do some more reading and watching
7.0 is the big mystery to me outside of like shaheen 4,1 and Kazumi df1 and Bryan launching CH hatchet


Speedkicks 8:25 PM
Basically
Tekken is a game with like
3k moves in it?


PhiDX 8:26 PM
Jesus yeah


Speedkicks 8:26 PM
In theory a 3k move game is like impossible to balance
But the way it works is that it's all governed by system rules and philosophy
So
high/mid/low
specific hitstun/blockstun states
and tracking/homing
That's where our game differs a bit from 2D games where character differences are more loose
Where like a character could have a whole mechanic of their own
Everything that is added to that 3k move list fits the system
But what made it more balanced than that was specific universal ideas attached to them
i10 jabs
i13 mid pokes
some i12 mids can exist but they are specifically low damage and poor frame advantage
i15 launchers


PhiDX 8:30 PM
The Feng b4's


Speedkicks 8:30 PM
etc
hold on gimme 5 min


PhiDX 8:30 PM
Homing giving up turn


Speedkicks 8:39 PM
ok
so
when they establish these rules and this philosophy
they have a set of bounds to challenge themselves to design within
And for a long time they did a good job of doing that
And when a character broke one of these, it was very rare and it was kind of a defining feature of that character.


Speedkicks 8:46 PM
Like Xiaoyu and Zafina evasive stances that evade more than just "high" but also "some" mids.
Instead of being hard coded to work within that h/m/l system, they could do hitbox evasion.
Yoshi's flash and special sidestep (spin)
But for the most part Tekken characters were within the bounds of Tekken
Which is why Geese and Akuma were such a big deal
Obviously in T7 some of the legacy design philosophy was violated in small ways that only nerds would notice but nothing super crazy outside of the 2Ds
until Leroy
He came beating the shit out of us with his i12 mid safe CH launcher
His long range homing + on block high
His cane (that may have been + on block on release I can't remember) (edited)
His moves with built in parry
And the ease of it all
And then a couple months later there was Fahkumram
And the homing hellsweeep patch
It was obv that Namco was breaking design for the sake of the shock of breaking design. Almost in a way that a poorly written show tries to subvert expectations for the sake of it.


PhiDX 8:52 PM
Right... "wouldn't it be insane if"


Speedkicks 8:52 PM
Yeah
And so then Tekken 8 comes out and that stuff is kinda like...scattered throughout the game. They took a couple good steps forward in the things they removed that limited Tekken 7 gameplay like the overtuned risk/reward on low parries, CH launches, n all that.
But there was these lil seeds of ass "forced design subversion" scattered through it
Law junkyard getting a wallsplatting mid. (edited)


PhiDX 8:54 PM
LMAO right


Speedkicks 8:54 PM
Basically everything about Lars including that random buff he got.
Kuma.


PhiDX 8:54 PM
Glaciating was saying Heihachi felt reasonable aside from god mode and heat smash

Speedkicks 8:55 PM
Yeah on release, Heihachi was a good balance of modern dogshit and regular Tekken. I think.
BUT
Now
Tekken 8 S2
Everybody has this shit.
To the point where the last bit of Tekken we were able to play due to their "good steps forward" have all been eclipsed by just being stuck in the fucking bullshit
It's worse than other bad patches because we're not just playing unbalanced Tekken. And we're no longer playing Tekken neutral to AVOID getting put in non-tekken situations. We're just straight up forced into dealing with these anti patterns from start to finish.
No matter where you are on the screen, Jun can touch you.
Everything you used to do to stop Hwoarang from stance mix is dead and also he has a + on block mid CONTINUATION string from his "ender" stance.
Law's heat mode was where he felt like god and now he can refill his heat multiple times per combo due to nunchucks.
Every place where the game previously deviated from the system and design philosophies has been turned up 10 fold.
What we used to complain about for select characters and situations has now spread to every character and situation
I think when they said they wanted to turn up every character's "uniqueness" that "uniqueness" was supposed to translate to "things this character does outside the governing design philosophy of the 3k moves in the game".
1500 changes of that uniqueness.
Shit is fucking washed they need to reset the patch, they destroyed like 30 years worth of collective work in one patch.