T4R3M13 Quality Delibs

Doug Dimmadome Owner Of The Dimmsdale Dimmadome:

I have a lot of thoughts on this match, particularly as it relates to ongoing themes in my deliberations across the three rounds of this tournament, so as a fair warning, this one will be a long one. Rather than organize Quality by team or by order of events, I intend to organize this by theme. You’ll see.

=(OVER?)EXTENSION=

This is far from the first time I’ve talked about overextension. It was a notable thing among delibs in R2M9, R3M2, and R3M11 in particular, and it’s something I feel both sides of this match are guilty of to some extent or another. I’ll start with the Fairy Disobedients because I refuse to use the term DILF to refer to either side, fuck you. (Love you guys.)

A lot needs to happen in the early game. While Tom rushes the players down, they have to:
-Ditch all of their metal objects
-Gather a large quantity of items from the bus
-Create a mass of alcohol to use as a shield
-Disassemble the bus and throw it into the sea.

The strategy says “This process will only take a few seconds. Noriko cries.” While I find both of these statements plausible, I find Noriko’s tears moreso. “A few” seconds is probably more akin to “several” in this case, even with two C SPD/PRE fluid Stands and Bus Driver 5. The point is, to do all of this well, it’ll take a decent bit of effort and focus, which doesn’t look great for you when you’re being rushed down.

However, I find this overextension to be less egregious than that of their opponent. Yes, Money Trees has A SPD/PRE, but only one body and one user rather than two users with two fluid Stands. With 4 AGI (Olympic record speeds of 12.4277 meters per second or 27.8 miles per
hour), Tom expects to be able to cross the gap in about two seconds. In these two seconds, he wants to:
-Weave Money into his clothes
-Create Six Gradient Field Swords
-Create Barbed Needles and attach them to the Fairy Disobedients
-Pop as many bubbles as possible (This will break E DUR Money)
-Ignite Booze (This will break E DUR Money)

That’s a lot to do in two seconds, even for an A SPD/PRE Stand, especially with how many of these plays will cause the Money to break and need to be replaced. One of two things will then happen: He reaches the Fairy Disobedients with far less preparation than hoped, or he doesn’t rush them down at quite his top speed as to give himself the time he needs to make all the things he wants to make.

So while players could absolutely have allocated their time and resources better in these precious opening seconds, what little defenses they have at the start should be able to buy enough time to finish, especially if Tom slows down at all to do all the things he expects to accomplish.

=FOCUS=

Tom’s strat is built on the general theory of “Kill Them on Turn One and Keep Going Just in Case I Don’t” which has been a good one when used so far. Once again returning to R2M9, the players had multiple kill-plans for Yes, nearly all of which were more effective than the last and assumed the previous one essentially hadn’t happened. Tom’s mid-and-late game does seem to rely on a certain level of advantage gained in the early game and the ability to be left alone.

From here, Tom does a lot, almost all of which would be interfered with heavily should Kaito engage, and when the players are noted explicitly, Noriko is treated as the primary threat, Kaito comparatively ignored outside of contingencies. Doing a lot of little things with much less marginal utility comparative to their marginal effort creates openings and holes in the strategy.

If left to his own devices, Tom’s mini-plays here can absolutely set up to be devastating, but the Fairy Disobedients have their own idea in mind. While Tom plays his own set up (now lacking the bus-provided cover he hopes for), Noriko and Kaito create the Mobile Command Unit and the Tipsy Warlord, taking on Vergil with a Tiny Kaiju-and-Mech Combo (which I love conceptually, regardless of certain flaws in the execution.)

Compared to Tom, the focus here builds each sub-play off of each other in a more symbiotic manner, though also getting lost in their own plays without much contingency for interference by their opponent.

=FLASH AND SUBSTANCE=

These are two flashy strategies that were clearly pretty fun to write, and often fun to read. There are a lot of cool techs and plays featured in this match, to be sure, but I find some of them to be questionable, so allow me to pop a few bubbles, corrode some silver, and make a last call for alcohol before I go.

Gone Fishing: I have some issues with the Money Barbs and their usage. Ignoring the fact that the players have a good enough defense against the barbs getting in that this may be a moot point, I have a few Thoughts. Firstly, these are actually a great method for Faraday attacks and will be painful in general. Secondly, I feel like a barb of the size implied, even with C+C POW magnesis, is not going to be able to pull a full-size human of 3 STR around by their whole body. The barb’s more likely to rip itself free (Once again super painful if it’s in the skin!) than pull the whole person around, unless Tom gets a lot of them fairly uniformly on the body, which as I said, is unlikely.

Don’t Drink and Drive: So the Booze Mech/Kaiju that is the Tipsy Warrior is Cool As Hell. It’s also Flammable As Hell. Yes, it’s covered in rocks, but even a single spark making it in there, maybe from a stray bit of money, is not going to turn out great for Kaito, though he does definitely have options to mitigate it.

Fight Fire with Fire: The fire extinguisher is used pretty well for its purpose, but it’s a little [risky] to grab something like that after making a point of getting rid of all your metal, and the process of the Bubble Gun creates a little bit of a [risk] I established around the Tispy Warrior.

A Fucking Rail Gun: Actually this one was mostly just cool, but so was the Double-Trouble Bubble Gun, and I enjoy the mental image of an unconventional beam struggle between bubbles, alcohol, fire extinguisher foam, and magical silver not to mention it. In fact, this section was shorter and better for both sides than I was initially worried it would be!

=FINAL THOUGHTS=

Tom’s strategy had a lot of interesting stuff going for it, and I don’t deny that there’s a real chance he wins on Turn One. I just think that, despite the flaws I found in the player strategy, they can stave him off enough to reach the midgame where he falls apart a bit and they just keep building. I think I’m going to go for a 6-8.




Richie Rich:

I’ll get right into things.

I’ll state this directly, and without mincing words. I did not like Tom’s rushdown whatsoever.

CDFF didn’t really have any overt response to it, but I still feel like no matter what, Tom comes out poorly. Not having a response to something doesn’t matter if the thing is strategically unsound.

First off, I think that interrupting Noriko’s setup was the right play. Popping a bunch of bubbles to interrupt her scaling and to force her to answer to you instead of setting up for free is the objectively right thing to do. Tom should definitely keep the pressure up.

Some sort of early game aggression makes perfect sense for Tom. However, I think that the way he did so was foolhardy. He essentially rushes in to 5m, within that with Kaito taking point and his attempt to attack Noriko.

Considering their previous matches and having no specific counters to overt rushdown, I think the most likely responses from the characters would be the most obvious, ones that they would do if caught 100% off guard. A basic bubble rush from Noriko, and a basic tentacle smash from Kaito.

One of the major issues with facing Noriko is her buildup, and the difficulty of dealing with her bubbles. She makes a lot, and attacking them carries an inherent risk. Tom is obligated to respond to them, especially to deal with them in a close range rushdown, considering his fragile nature. He needs to pop all of the bubbles Noriko sends his way.

As well, Kaito is pretty rough to face in close combat. He has A POW booze tentacles pretty early on, and despite his fragile Stand, it’s really not preferable to face him in close range, since he can flail around tentacles very easily, and it’s difficult for Tom to respond.

How I would have played the opening is to focus on popping bubbles, of course, but focus more on buildup. Tom benefits from a chance to build up, to gather shields (Bus Stop’s biggest weakness offensively) and to stymie and shut down Noriko’s buildup with relative safety. As well, he could have taken some relatively easy potshots, and light up the alcohol Kaito makes constantly, forcing them both to respond to his aggression while he has time to set up.

As is, he rushes in without any shields, and with 2 seconds at the absolute most to build up Money. I understand that Tom has A SPD A PRE, but an A stat is far from infallible and judges have bopped people for overusing them in the past.

On another match, rushdown was attempted, and praised heavily. The character in that case prioritized disengaging safely from the rushdown at an absolute premium, with limited goals, all of which had a clear priority, and extensive plans for if none of those goals were met.

Tom’s plan reads slightly differently. He runs up, blenders, pops Bus Stop bubbles, and fills them both with barbs, as well as weaving Money into Tom’s clothes.

I think this is incredibly greedy. Tom has to face off against two powerful opponents in close range, one of which he has to respond to, and the other who can flail at him and pose a deadly threat, considering Tom doesn’t have any of his defense or mobility set up. I could see him surviving well in the case that he has some ways to disengage quickly, or maybe some of the ever-necessary shields, but as it goes, he has no real ways of long-term defense or escape.

GF is a rather spendy thing to do 2 seconds in, and with popping bubbles, dodging tentacles, putting barbs in people, swinging swords, and weaving his clothes, I’m rather unsure about the feasibility of doing so. It’s a lot to do, and a lot to keep track of, with little material. I do not mean to discount A SPD A PRE whatsoever, he’s going to be a blender of offense for a few seconds while his 2 second buildup is still there.

But, I think the way it was done was also incredibly greedy. I’ll cover the options below for how things could go, ranked from least to most likely in my mind.

Option 1: Tom slits their throats and wins within 2 seconds.

I’m not even going to entertain this. I very much doubt that this was the writers’ intention, considering that they included several things that would be useful later with what they tried to do. In fact, I’ll say, if this happens in people’s minds, even if people think this is a mere possibility, this is the absolute worst case. Full stop, if a boss kills off, or even possibly could kill off, the players 2 seconds into the match, this is not fun to face, and not fun to read.

Option 2: Tom slices them up and they bleed out early game while he continues his aggression.

Also unlikely, and another uneasy hypothetical to consider. I think that with Kaito, Tom would be obligated to try and defend himself with GF. Now, this would be the perfectly correct move in another situation, but as is in this scenario, it gets shattered, and now he’s without them, and without much material while trying to protect from their onslaught. More on that later, but again, this is with very basic bubble rushing and tentacle waving, Tom just doesn’t have the resources to stand up to that, in my opinion. This is also the second worst case in terms of how the match could go.

Option 3: Tom disengages safely, with no real damage done on either side. Mostly a wash.

Unlikely. Tom is likely to get in some damage, he has the Stats™ to back up doing some damage, and his disengage options are predicated on some sort of formal response, which CDFF don’t have, and he goes pretty hard on the rushdown.

Option 4: Tom gets in a few hits, but loses all his Money and manages to escape relatively unharmed, doing some, but not a lot, of damage.

A little more likely- perhaps he could distract them with pain, and get the Money in his suit to escape. I think this is a big maybe, and one that isn’t reliable considering his ‘escape’ seems to be mostly about bullying CDFF and spacing away from the bus.

Option 5: Tom goes bankrupt.

He loses all his Money in close range, on the backfoot, and goes ‘bankrupt’ from taking too many ‘risks’... something I think is kinda likely, ish. Once he runs out of Money, he’s right next to two people who can just kinda spam in his general direction and win. I do not think that his defense or mobility is enough to stand up to them in a close-range, early fight if he runs out, full stop. But that I also dislike for another reason. I really don’t like the concept of someone just falling on their face and eating dirt in rushdown, and even if I think it could theoretically happen, I also think it would be an insult to the rest of the strategies, Dimi, and Logic, to seriously do so. Moving on to what I think would happen.

Option 6: Tom goes in, blenders for around 3 seconds, and leaves after being clipped by some nasty stuff.

I like this the most personally, and think it’s the most reasonable and fair interpretation of the opening considering their respective skills. Kaito would take point, Tom would be forced to dodge bubbles and tentacles but doing some damage and getting barbs in on his own, Tom is forced to disengage, having taken a stray hit or two. Noriko’s early game is shut down, Tom has to rebuild, but Kaito has had the chance to build up a little booze, albeit with some being burned away. Essentially, a little damage on everyone, some barbs, and a delayed late game across the board.

To expand on something I was talking about with GF. It’s a very good anti-rushdown option, for getting space from Tom’s opponents, but I feel that offensively it’s not really convincing. An example for what I think would have made it even more terrifying is using pieces of metal from the environment as backing, allowing the blades to more reliably block attacks (especially bubbles) without sacrificing output, as well as for simple attacks that have to be responded to. All in all, I think GF was rather misplaced. Instead of a proper rushdown, I think it would have been better serviced as a threat to those incoming, and for specific precision attacks, which it seems more well suited more to me.

As well, to talk about the non-strategic reasoning for me being so hard on this, as I stated earlier, the rushdown had more of a sense of ‘walk up and down smash’ to me. Big Numbers, therefore win.

Whether this was intended or not is irrelevant in my opinion. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when players do something that’s Big Numbers, but a boss leveraging them for this type of rushdown is an awkward look at best, and a boss arguing that they do that also induces bad feels from players, who feel like they were set up to lose, and then bosses, who again I’m sure, Dimi and Logic did not want to make players feel set up to lose or to make them feel done dirty. It's bad feels all around.

I’ve talked before about how it’s not about winning or losing, it’s about sending a message. This is my philosophy with tourney related things as a whole, but it holds especially true for bosses. I think that the biggest issue with how the rushdown was handled was the message the players received, regardless of the intended one from judges making it. In this regard, I feel that past everything, this section of the strategy fails to be Quality, due to not feeling like a quality challenge. I did not like reading through it, I don’t imagine that the players enjoyed reading through.

This is also not to malign any voters who felt this rushdown was effective and/or voted for Tom because of it. There’s a lot of difficult to parse things that I had to think for hours on to even put my thoughts onto page, and that I was iffy about before I started writing. CDFF don’t have an explicit answer to rushdown when they really should have, and I understand that’s not a good look. Nor is this intended to malign the stratters for Tom.

To go on players side for a bit. I think they try and do a little too much, especially with splitting their attention between getting rid of their things, raiding the bus, defense, etc. I don’t dispute that all of these things are necessary to the strategy, but I would have liked a little bit of expansion on priorities, and as stated, even a little anti rushdown. I think you can manage to push through everything and get your early game, but very much not interrupted.

I know I’ve been pretty harsh here, and I apologize for that. I don’t like talking about things I dislike in general, and I consider everyone involved in the match my personal friend. I really, truly, don’t mean any of my criticism in a cruel or personal way. And I request that nobody involved think any mistakes involved I’ve outlined are representative of their character, intelligence, or skill.

I’ll have a lot more nice things to say later on, I promise. Please bear with me while I go into the next section.

Section Everything Else Basically

I’ve spent just over 10k characters covering the openings, might as well cover everything else in as much detail as it deserves. And the rest does deserve quite a bit of detail! I’ll go over Tom’s various techs in a vacuum, then the players.

Gradient Field: I stated Gradient Field was a better midgame than as an early game rushdown, and I stand by that, this will pose a serious threat to the players attempting to get in, though it’s still not maybe the best offensively against booze, though lighting it on fire is always an option.

Car shield: There’s a shame there’s only one of these. Doors would have been good. Again, shields are the absolute biggest counter to a lot of Bus Stop’s offense. Good for what it is, tho.

Panels: Unfortunately the bus got yote, which puts a damper on this directly, but it’s also not too hard to replace.

Rail: Would have liked to see more use out of this honestly but w/e, it was alright for what Tom wanted it to do. Not much more to say on this but it’s a little defensive thing.

Barbs: I feel these would be nasty little buggers to deal with for CDFF (now would be a good thing to note that DILFs are not valid, I feel) but eminently able to be dealt with. I don’t feel they would pull the players around, but tearing out of their skin is just as distracting. I think this is mostly a problem for Kaito. The electrification is also yikes, though after the first time I think Kaito would just tear barbs out. Still a yikes, and very scary early game, though less so late game.

Section 7: A pretty cool tech, but something that has limited utility, I feel, in this case. It’s a mostly close range fight, which makes ranged zone control a little funky.

Annuity: Railguns! I don’t have much to comment on these. They’re really really cool late game setup, and have enough punch to beat through a lot of the defenses set up on players side. It’s a scary tech! This alone is a really convincing lategame tbh.

And moving on to the CDFF

I Am In A Car: Pretty funny tech, just imagine Noriko sitting up there and shooting stink eye down at Kaito, in the remains of Hawkes-sensei’s gift. As far as effectiveness, I feel it’s a really good way of achieving lifdoff and staying reasonably safely out of range of Tom while still being able to support Kaito, though also if Tom punches through it and knocks her down it’s a hard one. I’m not certain this would happen, but something to be aware of.

Bubble Wall: Not sold on this one. I think it requires a little too much time all things considered, but the idea behind screwing with his laser pointer is sound. I think that it also presumes he won’t have some sort of large-scale answer to bubbles. Noriko does a lot, and I think this is a little over the line for C Speed.

Tipsy Warrior: This is a really cool tech, with some big strengths, being it turns Kaito into a juggernaut, and major weaknesses, that it can be easily set alight. I don’t think this is a strat sinker, Kaito has ways to slough burning booze and due to it being unfermented, it shouldn’t be too quick. In any case, it provides some much needed armour against all but the hardest attacks… although I would have used window glass for a mask, at the least.

As well, with piercing shots being pushed back on, I will note while Kaito can definitely do this, it would also take focus and effort, stalling his offense somewhat.

Glass Explosions: Ouchies… something that Tom will have to respond to, though I will note he can.

Fire Extinguisher: A pretty solid option for smokescreen, especially in pen mode, but potentially abusable. Metal extinguisher is a bit of an oof but nothing more than a ping.

Nipple Armada: I question a bit amount of alcohol considering C SPD, but oh well, overall this tech is really good and effective at getting rid of Money.

Gatling Tubes: This is another super cool tech, though I do think Tom has the resources to not get memed on, they’re a constant thing he has to deal with, and something that, if he messes up, will hurt.

Alcohol Bombs: Again, pretty spendy on alcohol. I think overall most of these are one or two use only, so I’ll be examining them on effectiveness in that scenario. I understand that Kaito outputs a Lot, but that Lot is going to be burned away as much as Tom can manage. I know that the Alcohol Bombs aren’t single use, but just a thought I had. Tangent over. With NA set up, that should put a damper on Tom’s mobility, and making this a little more effective, though he could certainly get away and the A POW explosions are going to be of somewhat limited range, they’re still Chad A POW Explosions.

Demipoctalypic Battledome: REALLY spendy on bubbles and something that would be less effective than the battledome implies, though also forces Tom to Deal With Noriko when Kaito is in close range, which is always a boon.

Centipede’s Elegy: I Will Smack The Shit Out Of You: Basically Walk Up And Down Smash. I can respect it, though I will also note this carries a big risk of being shanked in the face, it should be fine. Booze golems are well enough, basically swarm from all sides.

Lightspeed Knockout: Risky, but holy fuck this is cool.

Gigabubble Uberbomb: YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Overall, I think the techs Tom did were pretty solid across the board, if misapplied. I think that players had some really hype things, but I also think overstated their output. I think both sides are a little guilty of sleeping a bit on what their opponents could do, I think players to a higher level with possible responses/pressure on Noriko, but also with lighting Kaito’s stuff alight. Still, as much as I disliked the opener, I think both sides did really well here. Tom is a terrifying presence as befitting a boss, and the flavour on both sides were really good.

Advice I’d give for the future for players is to keep in mind the timelines of how you get things done, and especially for Kaito, what you’re going to use booze on, and what to do if someone sets your buildup on fire.

I think that all things considered, I’d rank Tom at an 8 solely considering the latter half of this strat in a vacuum. But, unfortunately, as I spend much time discussing, I really disliked the opener, a lot. I think it fails strategically, and it fails to make for a fun thing to face. I thought quite a bit on this, but I think that I’ll give this a 6/10. I considered making it lower, but the discussion I’ve made, is, I think, overall fair. I’ll give players an 8/10, I think that there was some pretty major overestimation of their output in certain sections, and Tom’s ability to respond, but it’s a really solid core for everything.

Tom Nook:

Tom -

Starting with the Financial Father, I'd say this is an all around solid strategy. Could use work in some places, but let's start out with what I liked.

It's a very flavorful and well formatted strategy, letting Tom's character shine through in his plans and actions; And, much in Tom's nature, your plans are very measured and account for a lot of factors. You've got a good variety of defenses and AoE attacks that do a good job of covering a lot of ground.

I'm not as opposed to the opening rushdown as some of my fellow judges might be, and I think it definitely has potential to work. However, I feel Tom benefits a lot from more setup and buildup, given that his primary weakness is his durability, I think giving some time to build up good layers of defense is very beneficial. Whereas I do think your moves have potential to be deadly despite this durability, I think you could've spent a bit more time prepping. Money as a defensive layer has a lot of potential to be shredded, and whereas you have a lot of speed to be able to replace it, you also have some pretty quick foes with a lot of quantitative potential to break through them. I do also think it might suffer a tad from trying to do too much at once, despite your stand's speed. This is helped a bit by prioritization of actions, but I think that a different plan could've suited your opening a bit better.

That said, despite the potential it has to turn around on Tom, I do think that you prepare well for the rest of the strategy. You do a good amount in this opening play to set up for later, so let me move onto the meat of your strategy.

The best way to overcome your stand's weakness, of course, is to play into its strengths, and I think you do so quite well. You have intense speed, and thus, great potential for quantity and mobility. I think you have a lot of clever and varied methods of attack, the different Gradient Fields and the barbs coming to mind as a good offense-defense combo throughout your strategy. You also build up your mobility with bolted panels and Magnet Dashing. These all seem like pretty good ways to combat your very scale-oriented opponents, fighting quantity with AoE and superior mobility.

I think your midgame is solid overall, serving well in terms of buildup, harassment, and just overall offense against your opponents. Areas of improvement could be better accounting for your opponent's defenses and, again, accounting better for your Money's low durability, but you do a better job of that here with your reinforcement from the various metals around the arena.

Moving onto your endgame, you have an ultimate culmination of your environmental influence with the railgun and the panels you've set up taking masterful control of your speed and precision to perform an all out assault on your opponents. Overall, I really liked this as a final play, and thought it was a fun read.

Looking at the strat as a whole, I definitely think it was good. That said, I think the areas of weakness are clear. Environmental control and influence with great speed and precision is one of your primary strengths, but I feel in your plays there could've been more done to account for your low durability, and your opponent's potential to capitalize on this. I definitely don't think it sinks your strat by any means, but it does definitely hinder it.

I'm going to give this a 7/10. Overall, very strong offense, defense, and mobility, with a good list of contingencies, but could have been more reserved with your investments and managed your risks a bit better. I was satisfied with it, though.

The Fairy Disobedients -

Another very entertaining strategy from our Delightfully Disobedient Duo!

You two have great synergy and it shows in your wide variety of creative plays. Both on their own and in tandem you have great offense, defense, and mobility and really let both of your powers shine here.

The tragic disassembly and repurposing of Noriko's bus into the Marvel Cine- I mean MCU for field surveillance was really clever and a good way to give herself some protection from the thick of combat.

At the same time, Kaito is transforming himself into a sumo star to provide a great method of protection from Tom, as well as a great way to engage. I thought this was really cool. It could potentially pose some problems if it was set alight, but I do think that Kaito has good ways of dealing with that. I do also think it might pose the problem of being unwieldy if it's too sizable, possibly needing to sacrifice offense, defense, or mobility to bolster the others. It's a bit of a mixed bag, but I think it definitely has potential to be good for you.

Meanwhile, from Noriko's position in the sky, she's doing her job as a scaler by producing a great quantity of bubbles for various tasks, the purposes of which all seem pretty solid. Using the walls of bubbles to corner in Tom, blast him with glass shrapnel, and use extinguisher foam to disorient and block his vision are great methods of both offense and defense, attacking one of his biggest strengths, his precision.

Next, like an overfilled keg, Kaito does a great job of keeping up the pressure. Nipple Armada and the Bubble Gatling do a great job in tandem of protecting yourselves while also making sure Tom doesn't get a moment of rest from your nonstop barrage.

Something I will note that could be worked on is accounting for your stand's speeds. I do think with some of these later techs you kind of overestimate the speed at which you'll be able to produce your alcohol and bubbles, making plans that seem to require a large amount of your respective products that you might not be able to have quite as much as you think you will.

Despite this, I think your final section is quite solid. Your final barrage of techs, as usual, are really cool and creative, and solid ways of ensuring that Tom gets finished off. A great culmination of your scaling and a good control of the arena.

All in all, I think this was a good strategy. Showed a great understanding of your opponent and yourselves, and had a lot of effective and cool plays. It definitely had some areas that could've used improvement; despite a good understanding of your opponent, I think at times you underestimated his defenses, and also overestimated your own potential for production. That said, I liked what I saw, and I'm going to give it an 8/10.