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Licenses

misaka
Aug 1st, 2013
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  1. [21:15:59] Илья Панфёров: In a world of programming, there's only one way to find the lib you need - Does it work? -> Yes -> Is it fast -> Yes -> Use it.
  2. [21:16:24] Timothy: Is it licensed well -> No -> Start from scratch.
  3. [21:16:34] Илья Панфёров: >Who cares about licenses.
  4. [21:16:35] Timothy: maybe I deserve it for not liking the GPL
  5. [21:17:17] Илья Панфёров: I tend not to care about licenses involved as long as my code stays private and proprietary.
  6. [21:17:46] Timothy: I don't like to keep my code private or proprietary
  7. [21:18:00] Timothy: as a general rule, if I can't release my entire project under the MIT license, I'm not content
  8. [21:18:13] Timothy: I guess that's asking for too much
  9. [21:18:36] Илья Панфёров: Well I'm working on a project simmilar to hummingbird in the code-enclosing way.
  10. [21:19:13] Илья Панфёров: I mean, I'm not planning in showing the code anytime soon, but I am planning on launching the service public.
  11. [21:19:32] Илья Панфёров: therefore, I don't care about licensing.
  12. [21:19:41] Timothy: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4175669/automatically-creating-accessor-methods-using-pdo-call-and-preg-match
  13. this is the closest I got
  14. [21:19:52] Илья Панфёров: If anything, licensing KILLS foss.
  15. [21:19:59] Илья Панфёров: So the best you can do is deny them.
  16. [21:20:12] Timothy: I dislike that philosophy, if only because I like to be respectful towards the authors of the code I'm tearing apart
  17. [21:20:45] Timothy: the BEST you can do is consider the author to reconsider
  18. [21:20:48] Timothy: do that you don't HAVE to deny them
  19. [21:20:56] Timothy: it's too bad that doesn't work very often
  20. [21:21:09] Илья Панфёров: How many licenses do we have now?
  21. [21:21:19] Илья Панфёров: How many more will emerge out of nowhere in the future?
  22. [21:21:54] Timothy: I don't think the problem is the number of licenses or all the variations in their wording
  23. [21:22:05] Timothy: I think the problem is the actual philosophies of the developers
  24. [21:22:06] Илья Панфёров: Somebody sees all this mess, thinking "Oh, I know everything about licenses and IT, maybe I can developer new license that will cover all the issues others have". And then BAM, we have YET ANOTHER ONE!
  25. [21:22:15] Timothy: and that's fine
  26. [21:22:19] Илья Панфёров: No, that's not.
  27. [21:22:21] Timothy: because no one is obligated to use the new license
  28. [21:22:33] Timothy: the developer should be allowed to release his code under whichever circumstances he pleases
  29. [21:22:47] Timothy: what needs to be fixed is which circumstances developers prefer
  30. [21:23:18] Илья Панфёров: Well, that brings us to a point where people like you ( no offence, really), decide not to use tech a or b in their works because of the license incompatability!
  31. [21:23:25] Timothy: that's right
  32. [21:23:44] Timothy: I don't know if 'FOSS' should be used to describe anything other than public domain/WTFPL code
  33. [21:24:03] Илья Панфёров: Well, all those licenses are supposed to support "FOSS", so...
  34. [21:24:10] Timothy: I think it's okay that people restrict the use of their software
  35. [21:24:22] Timothy: I don't think they SHOULD, but they should certainly have the right
  36. [21:24:36] Илья Панфёров: If anything, somebody should develop a general license that allows you to use whatever code you want in your works without having to worry about license mismatch.
  37. [21:24:57] Timothy: if there are license incompatibilities, that's because that was the intent of the developer who applied that license to his code
  38. [21:25:27] Илья Панфёров: ^ Many people just apply the license because it's popular\they think it's cool.
  39. [21:25:33] Илья Панфёров: I've seen enough examples.
  40. [21:25:46] Timothy: if I license my code such that you are obligated to make public all of your changes to the code, I DON'T want you to be able to change it and use it for your proprietary website and not disclose the source
  41. [21:26:00] Timothy: it's not like that specific license incompatibility is unintentional
  42. [21:26:14] Timothy: then developers need to become more informed
  43. [21:26:28] Илья Панфёров: That too. But all that license diversity confuses them.
  44. [21:26:36] Timothy: not just because of people applying licenses for the hell of it, but also because of people applying licenses that are too restrictive
  45. [21:27:06] Илья Панфёров: By the way, I can't see the reason to disallow disclosion of your code.
  46. [21:27:15] Илья Панфёров: Refering to what you said above.
  47. [21:27:32] Timothy: me neither
  48. [21:27:37] Timothy: I don't license my code under the GPL
  49. [21:27:41] Илья Панфёров: As long as dev is not claiming my module his own, I'm 100% fine if he makes profit using it or disclosing his sources.
  50. [21:27:43] Timothy: that was just an example
  51. [21:28:04] Timothy: because I do think that developers should have the right to enforce those terms
  52. [21:28:10] Timothy: I would never do it myself, though
  53. [21:28:20] Timothy: that's why I release my projects under the MIT license
  54. [21:28:21] Илья Панфёров: Well.
  55. [21:28:37] Илья Панфёров: I hope you'll agree with me at least on this:
  56. [21:28:55] Илья Панфёров: Devs have right to enforce license terms, but in a more convenient way.
  57. [21:29:07] Timothy: what do you mean by that?
  58. [21:29:13] Timothy: how do you mean "convenient"?
  59. [21:29:19] Илья Панфёров: Having a license like CC but for software?
  60. [21:29:51] Илья Панфёров: A license that is flexible and dynamic? So you choose what to enforce and what not to, without chaning to other license?
  61. [21:29:59] Timothy: yep
  62. [21:30:05] Timothy: software licenses need to be more modular
  63. [21:30:29] Timothy: you shouldn't need to have a database of different licenses with combinations of terms so that you can pick which one you want
  64. [21:30:41] Timothy: you should be able to just pick which terms you want in a common license and use that one
  65. [21:30:51] Илья Панфёров: Coding Commons?
  66. [21:30:56] Илья Панфёров: Sounds like CC, lol.
  67. [21:31:05] Timothy: heh
  68. [21:31:10] Илья Панфёров: Wait.
  69. [21:31:12] Илья Панфёров: I should save that.
  70. [21:31:18] Илья Панфёров: That was a very pleasant talk.
  71. [21:31:27] Timothy: I agree
  72. [21:31:45] Timothy: http://choosealicense.com/
  73. this is the website I was thinking of when I mentioned "database"
  74. [21:32:02] Timothy: it's a lot simpler than I implied, but that also makes it less powerful
  75. [21:32:42] Илья Панфёров: tldrlegal?
  76. [21:32:52] Timothy: specifically this page http://choosealicense.com/licenses/ that shows the individual permissions
  77. [21:33:10] Timothy: yes, that's a better example
  78. [21:33:22] Timothy: it's disappointing how few modifications of existing licenses there are
  79. [21:33:30] Илья Панфёров: I love tldr for the way it summaries info about license.
  80. [21:33:34] Timothy: if we had one master license with specific permissions added and removed, we'd be fine
  81. [21:34:08] Илья Панфёров: Now if we could only find a person competent enough to create a concept and present it to public...
  82. [21:34:34] Timothy: just host a mirror of creativecommons.org and switch some things around
  83. [21:34:41] Timothy: get Vikhyat to do it. he seems pretty smart
  84. [21:34:44] Илья Панфёров: No, no.
  85. [21:34:51] Илья Панфёров: I mean, not just copying CC.
  86. [21:36:04] Илья Панфёров: Well, it seems like a good way to do it, but behind every major and popular license like MIT or GNU or, heck, even CC itself lies a host of very smart law-related folks who know about licensing and legal stuff.
  87. [21:36:31] Timothy: yep
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