BTC VS Embrace 1

Vulkan vs Pikachu

Embrace response 1

* Pika opens with thunderbolt, it will hit, the arena is good for thunderbolt, and when it hits it will one shot.

* Vulkan has no lightning resist

* Vulkans flamethrower will set off the sprinklers in Ikea leading to even less of a lightning resist.

* Electro web allows pikachu to web up his foes to ensure some free hits

* Electro web is likely to hit, and is large.

* Can use thunderbolt while someone is trapped in the electro web

*  Increasing the likely hood of hits reduces the burden of proving that an individual attack is strong relative the Vulkan.

* Electrowebs can be used as trampolines in the off chance they dont hit

* Pikachu is potent in CQC.

* Pikachu's quick attack is a functional speed boost.

* Quick attack is a building busting attack.

* Vulkan wont expect Pikachu will attack with his tail.

* Iron tail hitting the ground send multiple trees worth of logs very high in the air.

* Iron tail can also pierce well enough to slice a boulder in half.

* Pikachu's jumps are another speed boost.

* Pikachu takes hits from a pokemon comparable in strength to another pokemon who destroys 3 large ruined buildings.

* Pikachu can paralyze Vulkan when Vulkan attempts to strike him.

Good first response from Embrace, Sets up a bunch of win cons like thunder/electrowebs, piercing and even in tier close quarter combat, as well as multiple speed boosts in jumping and quick attack. Really wish this was more concise.
****

BTC's first response

* Thunderbolt/Eletroweb can only hit a stationary target.

* Pikachu's lightning is slow, the Electroweb is slow too.

* Pikachu's attacks can only be as strong as lightning

* Pikachu's scaling to Guzzlord doesnt really work due to the fact we never really see the mechanics behind Guzzlord destroying those buildings and the fact that Zerarora doesnt scale to any of Guzzlord's attacks.

* Wind =/= mach cone

* Jump isnt an ability, its simply movement as such it should be speed equalized as

* Pikachu-Guzzlord scaling is dubious at best, as such his durability is questionable too .

* Vulkan is a 200 tonner and destroy tanks with 1 hammer blow

* Embrace relies on semantics to make her point instead of just using common sense language. Embrace must prove that the text means to incinerate with munitions rather than the presented text of incinerates via Vulkan's hammer blow.

* The dam feat might be an outlier as pikachu has shown lesser feats in the past.

* Would pikachu kill a human?

* scaling bad again

* The beast who is roughly the same strength as Vulkan punches him and he is fine to fight.

* Vulkan has piercing resist.

BTC effectively dismantles Embrace's whole arguement. bringing up the fact that Pikachu hasnt shown the ability to land thunder on an opponent who is paying attention calling the thunder slow, and casting serious doubt on the scaling that Embrace used to prove Pikachus's strength. On top of this, BTC effectively establishes his own win cons, IE; Vulkan is a 200 tonner, Vulkan strong/durable, and most importantly Pikachu wont kill a humanoid. Great response from BTC

*****

Embrace Response 2

* Lucario and Buzzswole arent standing still, they just cant react in time

* The Thunderbolts aren't slow, theres no distance so they're just just a vauge speed.

* The scans shown by BTC are from old seasons, the modern pikachu is faster than this and his attacks are too.

* Pikachu has an AOE attack. And Vulkan has anti-feats against lighting.

* BTC has to prove Vulk tries to dodge

* Google definitions dont matter, the onus is on BTC to prove thats what the author meant

* Even if BTC's interp is right, munitions still cause a substantial amount of damage to the tank.

* The Dam feat is not an outlier

* Pikachu's electric attack has good feats.

* Pikachu shoots humans enough to prove he would shoot Vulk and without knowing his durability this would kill

* Mimikyu didnt stand still he just lacked the speed to dodge??

* Silvally fast = Pikachu Electrowebs good

* AOE webs mitigate speed issues, serve as a impediment, and allows for free hits

* Theres no option guzzlord has other than striking the building to bring it down as such the scaling should still stand.

* Zeraora scales to Guzzlord in other ways so this scaling is still valid as well .

* Pikachu quick attack good.

* Lifting doesnt equal striking, Vulk dura bad.

* Being stabbed and fighting on isnt piercing resist.

* in character argument bad

* leaping is still a speed boost

* Durability scaling still valid

* bad Vulk scaling on his durability

* Pikachu Durability > Vulk Strength

* 200 tons is an outlier

* Good Summary

I dont know how convinced I am about Lucario and Buzzswole paying attention, it seems to me that they just werent? like buzzswole turns his whole ass head, and Lucario looks pretty suprised. Calling the Thunderbolts vaugely speedy probably isnt a good move idk. I do believe that modern Pikachu is faster than old season Pikachu tho. Pikachu's AOE is good, but I fail to see how the scan provided is an anti feat for lightning, it seems like he's just staggered and then fine. I feel like Embrace said the text meant something, and then BTC went "okay prove it" and the only response to that was "no u prove it means this other thing". I do believe that the munitions being in the tank is a large part of this feat tho. Pikachu shocking humans is pretty cut and dry, he's been shown to shock ash and team rocket yeah. I feel like the webs are really good, but I also feel like they're being treated as a secondary win con, behind stuff like Thunderbolt and CQC when Electrowebs are the point I agree with most. Im still not 100% convinced that the Guzzlord scaling is true, but im not convinced its fake either. Quick attack is good. Lifting doesnt equal striking, but I think hammer blows equal lifting so like idk what this has to do with anything. I believe that Vulk could be stabbed to death yeah. Pikachu strong Vulk weak

I really like the summary of this part of the debate mostly because if you threw in a few scans it could be its own response. like theres so many words in this debate.

This response is like alright at best? A lot of the stuff Embrace is just not convincing to me, and the stuff that is convincing is either unimportant or is just being treated as secondary.

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 BTC response 2

* Good Frames, Lucario was probably not paying attention

* Buzzswole probably doesnt have 360 degree vision and he probably wasnt paying attention either.

* Early seasons pikachu is infact slow.

* No frame of reference such as distance or speed for the AOE attack

* Embrace must prove that Pikachu's speed increase over the course of his fights improves the speed of thunderbolt specifically, especially in reference to pikachu himself

* Mimikyu reacts to the electroweb, as such he cant be too slow to dodge

* Electroweb is slow in reference to everthing.

* Vulkan wont get hit due to the attacks being telegraphed by ash yelling, Pikachu moving, and they're also slow

* Vulcan will dodge because he's only dealing with one opponent

* Sprinkler meta is bad.

* Ash wouldnt command Pikachu to shock someone with lethal voltage

* Embrace must prove that Pikachu is shocking ash with the same voltage he is using for the dam feat

* Does Ash scale to team rocket?

* Pikachu only destroys a small portion of the water spout

* Building and Dome gif are worse than the tank feat, since a tank is more durable but the second feat requires charge up time. Pikachu cant hit Vulk with this sort of attack

* Ash wont lethally hurt Vulk, even if they do mangage to hit him they wont go for the kill

* Melee bad, Jenga Metaphore good.

* Gyrados feat is not good, Space Marine feat good.

* Vulkan might walk off the Iron tail, Only having one sometimes effective attack means that pikachu is more liable to opt for a strategy that doesnt work

* Iron Tail isnt piercing.

* Embrace must prove that Vulk is an unreliable narrator

* Vulkan has sparred with Angron before, he does know how strong he is

* Rocks less durable than tanks. The rocks are also small

* Embrace must prove this is an outlier, instead of just saying it is. Vulkan has comparable feats.

Yeah this just nails home some of the points I was talking about, Im still convinced that Lucario and Buzzswole weren't paying attention. I also think that Early season Pikachu is slow, but like Modern Pikachu obviously isnt. I feel like the AOE is still good, like even if theres no frame of reference for distance i still know it expands in every direction for some distance. I believe that Modern Pikachu is fast, and his thunderbolt is probably fast too. Mimikyu literally reacts to Elecroweb meaning its not to slow to dodge. I think Electroweb is slow coming out, but I think it makes Pikachu faster so like its probably slow. Ash yelling out attacks is going to telegraph them to Vulkan which like makes sense sometimes. Like some feats are in english and some are in Japanese so like maybe. I believe that Ash wouldnt murder someone in cold blood, but also like ash just yells out thunderbolt and pikachu fires one out not thinking it will kill. I dont think that Pikachu is firing out Dam levels of electricity every single time he does Thunderbolt. Fuck sprinkler meta by the way, I think its dumb. All the electricity attacks are worse than the already presented feats so like this only gives BTC more ammo to call shit slow and weak which like I believe in the water spout case but the Dome and the building gifs are pretty good.  The issue I have with this part of the response is that BTC talks about how the Gyrados feat is bad and SPACE MARINES are tough, but like how tough? Theres no sense of how good the space marine splattering feat is, because I know shit about space marines. I dont believe that Vulkan can simply walk off a piercing attack like Iron tail. Vulk's dura is good, he knows how strong his brother is so it should be good. I dont believe that the 200 ton feat is an outlier

all and all this is a good response from BTC, I argee with a lot of the points made here, especially the points about Lucario not paying attention, electroweb being slow and Pikachu not firing out Dam levels of electricity every single time. BTC also points out some non sense things that Embrace has said like Sprinkler meta, jumps equaling speed boosts, and the new electricity attacks being posted. However the end of the response kinda falls off, especially the part about the gyardos feat being bad, and how Vulk could walk off an iron tail.

Im leaning more towards BTC winning so far, but like not by much.


*****

Embrace Round 3 response

* Pikachu can tag a Zeraora using quick attack, who is faster than Pikachu unamped

* Lucario is infact paying attention, he just cant react to the thunderbolt

* Buzzswole does have 360 degree vision

* Old feats are slow

* BTC hasnt countered that lightning would stun Vulkan

* AOE sends out lightning in multiple directions it doesnt need to be quantified

* Vulkan wont dodge

* Guns = Pikachu because AOE

* Thunderbolt one shots, Pikachu has good feats

* Pikachu doesnt go full force against team rocket

* Burden of proof is on BTC to prove that Pikachu wont go full force even tho Pikachu is strongly motivated to win.

* Prove Vulkan would attack a rodent

* Pikachu isnt strong enough to kill a pokemon human

* Pikachu would shock a dude who is bigger than humans if he's running around with a threatening hammer.

* Pikachu does vaporize the entire water spout, it doesnt make sense that he doesnt.

* Tank material = dome material and the tank is smaller Second feat doesnt require wind up

* Sprinklers move at mach 1, Pikachu can still shoot thunderbolts from the beams at the top of the Ikea.

* Mimikyu not slow, just weak.

* Electroweb not slow, Pikachu is just falling horizontally

* 40K people dont understand japaneese

* Quick attack scales to pokemon I dont care about but its strong apparently

* Jenga analogy bad

* Guzzlord does scale effectively to Zeraora.

* pasting humans bad

* Piercing doesnt equal slicing

* Iron Tail is infact piercing

* Vulkan sucks vs piercing, All Embrace has to do is prove that Vulkan cant hurt Pikachu

* BTC hasnt said shit about speed.

* BTC has to prove that Vulk is a reliable narrator because of something to do with being humble

* Tanks are weak, also its not about the individual rocks, its about how many rocks there are, and how big they are. Pikachu tanks all the slashes

* 200 tons is in fact an outlier

* Ship small

More of the same really, Lucario and Buzzswole were paying attention, Mimkyu doesnt suck, the Guzzlord scaling is good.

The points I do care about are Quick attack, Iron Tail, and Electroweb.

Pointing out exactly how fast and how strong quick attack is, makes it a really threatening attack in a speed equalized environment. Same thing with Iron tail, Its piercing Vulk gets cucked by piercing. Electroweb not being slow is just the cherry on top at this point, seeing how its so useful for an additional speed boost, and allowing Pikachu to get some free hits in on Vulk.


Other notable parts of this response: Pikachu would attack a hammer weilding maniac, Vulk might not attack a rat. 40K people not understanding Japanese is a hilarious line. Sprinklers dont work at Mach 1, thats dumb as hell.

Again I think this debate probably comes down to what Pikachu does after Thunderbolt, seeing as how its his favourite attack, and im not 100% convinced it one shots.

*****

BTC response 3

>Zeraora vs Pikachu

* Zeraora wasnt looking at the attack, The opponent not paying attention doesnt scale to the attack being fast.

* Zeraora isnt someone who always uses his speed

> Lucario

* Lucario does spend most of this shot looking away and then literally turning his head,He is not paying attention.

>Buzzswole

* Buzzswole turns around and that means he shouldnt have 360 degrees of vision. its just art style tho

* The visual of Pikachu running and then firing the thunderbolt should prove that the thunderbolt is slow

* The mecha feat is slow. and it wont hit Vulkan


* Old anti-feats apply, you cant cherry pick the fire power of the old anime, but the speed of the new one.

* Team rocket feats are IRL tier

* We only see the steam from the portion that Pikachu was actually in.

* Tank isnt made of the same material of the dome, this is assumed.

* The hole is smaller than the tank.

* Light beam = dog sized

* Nothing is ever said about sprinklers being mach speed.

* opponent reacts to the electroweb.

* Theres no proof that he would be knocked back from the attack that he made. he's just falling.

* People screaming loud things means attacking, Vulk has experience with screaming

* Skyscrapers arent analogous to ruined buildings, Also due to the off screen nature of the feat, we have no idea how long it took Guzzlord to actually preform this feat,

* The linked feat is not blow for blow, it does not scale.

* Fully armoured Space marine =/= buck naked human

* Tanks are stronger than rocks

* Iron Tail piercing is inconsistent, on top of that Ash cant chose whether to pierce with Iron Tail or not. And he might not even chose to pierce a human.

* Leaping is speed equalized, its not a speed boost

* Vulkan is stronger than his brothers, he wouldnt say it if it wasnt true.

* Rocket launcher =/= Hammer Swing

* Tank Turrets are bigger than the rocks that Charziard crushes

* Spiderman analogy literally doesnt matter. Ship big, its not on outlier.


Im giving BTC the win on this one. I think the Guzzlord scaling is shakey enough to call Pikachu's durability into question, and as BTC correctly points out Embrace cannot have both the power of the old anime and the speed of the new one without having the anti-feats of both. I agree with BTC's interpratation that the lightning must either be slow, or weak, and either one of these is a death sentence against Vulkan. Embrace started this match by calling Thunderbolt Pikachu's favourite attack. With that taken off the table, BTC's win con of "Hit rat with hammer" is more convincing than any one of the 5 other options Embrace lays out.