asdghjkl;

(Skipped a bit inwards into the convo)
StarMann - Yesterday at 11:38 PM
Not only that, if you ignore the last four logs. None of the other logs have anyhting to do with the app. They just seem to be "I did Risk" and not "I did risk for this"
Fish80 - Yesterday at 11:40 PM
true. In all honesty the artifical imperfect label was sort of tacked on near the end.

I was more centered towards death's door which i had very little idea on how to app for. As such I more so wanted to catalouge how exactly Thom fell to the darkside, and the risks that happened because of it
StarMann - Yesterday at 11:41 PM
As far as I can tell, Thom has fallen in to light shadow rather than any sort of complete darkside. Especially if the Gorandis event has anything to say about it.
Let me show you something.
Have you read the first ever app I posted, an app for an ability on Magnus?
Fish80 - Yesterday at 11:45 PM
I have not actually : O can you send me the link?
and i was actually using the log for gorandis' event to designate thom realizing he wasn't yet dark enough for what he desires, and using it sort of as a push.
StarMann - Yesterday at 11:45 PM
http://eterniaroleplay.prophpbb.com/post172841.html#p172841
This app had three months worth of logs
The first of which were from about two weeks after I started playing eternia
Now, if you look at them individually you might wonder, what does this event from 35 ic years ago have to do with the character now and this app?
And the thing is, the way this app is written and designed is to tell a story. The story of the early life of Magnus. His trials, his friendships and how they affected him.
All the logs are there to show that the character has grown and changed.
They are not there to "show risk" or to state CoD
They are only there because they add to the character and what the app is for
If you look there's only like three self RP logs of actual skill development
Because that doesn't matter
Fish80 - Yesterday at 11:49 PM
so.. are you saying what i should do is try to focus more so on how he changed, and sometimes include cod if it contributes to that change but mostly leave it out?
StarMann - Yesterday at 11:50 PM
Well, in your case both is needed, but my personal belief is that Thom does not seem to react to his environment. He doesn't change, he's not developing as a believable character.(edited)
And I understand sometimes that when you want to dev towards something that the character might make strange choices (compared to what they did before) as the player is trying to steer things in another direction.
However, I have never been one to do that myself.
I look at the character and go for what will fit them, I don't change the character to fit an app if you get what I mean.
So, with Thom, after the Gorandis event he decided he needs to be firmer, right? Why? What led up to the belief that he was too soft?
Fish80 - Yesterday at 11:55 PM
It wasn't so much the belief that he was too soft. It was more so the fact he realized he did not have the power to do his inital plans. As such he diverted from them, looking elsewhere for the power that he lacked which would still be 'his way'. The easiest path to power tends to be stronger occultism so he looked ofr occultic implements.
StarMann - Yesterday at 11:56 PM
Then that begs the question: "What purpose does every single log above the point serve?" If that was the point in which he started to go towards this idea, what is the point in including so much before it?(edited)
Fish80 - Yesterday at 11:58 PM
it was a point of submerging deeper into darkness, but not the first.
StarMann - Yesterday at 11:59 PM
From what I saw on that event, he had not yet even dipped his toes in darkness, let alone submerged. He seemed a very tame, and even somewhat kind individual.
June 24, 2017
Fish80 - Today at 12:03 AM
Thats because he is kind.

it is something that he was made aware of icly by syx but still struggles with. It is one of his 'weaknesses' another being that he often wishes to be honorable. He is not an indivisual who tends to be apathetic towards others.
StarMann - Today at 12:05 AM
If he was kind at the start and is still kind at the end, what has changed about him?
(I know there are more facets to a character, I am merely asking for how you believe the character has grown/changed)
Fish80 - Today at 12:11 AM
At the begining of Thom, Thom wished to be a hero and protect people. He desired peace, happiness for all. However, his dreams of that were crushed. He attempted to take control of the organization that crushed it, but found himself not listened to. Towards the end of the application, Thom no longers desire to be a hero. While kind by default what Thom desires to is cause depravity and evil acts so that he would call down the angels.

I would say what has changed for him would be his end goals.
StarMann - Today at 12:14 AM
"what Thom desires to is cause depravity and evil acts so that he would call down the angels."

Could you explain this to me? Mainly the Why's and a bit of the How's. Because from what I have heard (I've been too busy with a new job straight out finals at uni to really have a presence in Eternia) all of what Thom has achieved could still very easily be towards his original dreams.
Fish80 - Today at 12:19 AM
sure.

Thom intended to learn demonlogy to be able to create rifts and summon Nethadin that would generate depravity. Growing his power further he hoped to be able to generate more depravity, teach others the art, as well as search for depraved artifacts and use them.

Why he seeks to summon the angels has changed. Thom is a bit arrogant and wishes to force the angels to change the world, where as originally he just wished to ask why it was so bad ect.
StarMann - Today at 12:24 AM
So, let me get this straight. Thom, started off with the dream of fixing the world. And he was spurned from it. In its stead he had a new dream, to bring tha angels down to Valmasia and to get them to fix everything.

Now, that sounds good when you put it like that, however. There is also this to consider: There is absolutely nothing stopping Thom from following his original dream with the resources and forces he has amassed. He has everything he needs at his fingertips to make the world a better place.

Now, there is the argument that he has 'fallen too far' but I have clearly seen that this is not the case. He is a kind man who wants to help the world. And if he does want to bring the angels down through destruction and depravity... then he is seriously breaking character.

(There is also the point that bringing about death and depravity as a beacon to get the angels to fix things is instead just making things worse for them to clean up when they do get there, but that aside.)

If Thom is the kind man as you have described and I have seen. Why has he suddenly massively changed?
Fish80 - Today at 12:36 AM
That is a very good question.

Thom no longer desires to save the world by his own hand. He has lost belief that he can save the world. His main thought is making it worse so eventually someone else will make it better. Thom is merely shoving responsibility off his shoulders, believing something else will swoop in and improve it all. This occured near the attempt of Thom to take over Cinderfall akin to 'if I can not save that which i value, how can i save anything else'
StarMann - Today at 12:38 AM
If he is shirking the responsibility of saving the world, why does he strive to make it worse? I understand the idea behind wanting to get angels to fix it. However, why does he war against those that are actively trying to repair the world? (Main case being Cinderfall)
Fish80 - Today at 12:41 AM
Thom's desire to burn Cinderfall stems from a teenage fit of anger honestly. He challenged Liara to a duel for the leadership of cinderfall. She refused, other members of the guild started insulting him, he got angry and swore to burn down the town pretty much. His honor demanded that he would follow through.

As for making it worse, he can think of no other way to get the attention of the angels.
i can grab the rp for the cinderfall burning one if you would like
StarMann - Today at 12:44 AM
No that's fine, the cinderfall stuff at least makes some sense. It's the angel stuff that doesn't sit right and, frankly, will likely be why a lot of your future applications will get denied.

Because Thom is not doing anything for himself or for others. Not in a tangible sense. As in, oocly, Thom is not doing anyhting for other players. He's a leader that doesn't want to take personal responsibility. He has all these resources at his disposal, he still wishes the world was better, he doesn't think he can do it himself...

And yet he does not take the time to look around him for people to pass the torch onto.
Thom has come far, he continues to conquer and amass power and wealth. And yet he does nothing with it. He amasses more and more and yet still all he does is the same routine. He's kind to his friends. He makes weak enemies (weak as in the actual antagonism between the two parties is weak), destroys them and then the cycle continues.
Thom isn't impacting the world in the right way. He makes war, he kills people off, yes. But his reasons for doing so are shallow.
Shallow to everyone else at least.
Becuase you have to consider that Eternia is a game where a lot of people are trying to write their stories. And Thom's story is like a spike through the pages. Oh it connects up here and there, sometimes it might even be relevant but ultimately he will feel apart from it all, because he never seems like he meshes with the story.

Not while his motivations lie beyond other players. Not while he looks to outside of PCs to do what he wants.
We could also get into the multiple counts of rolling for outcomes which people have found rather offensive. They are here to write their stories and you are not writing your own, you leave it to chance.

Do you know how that feels to the other party involved? When important things are happening and you let the dice decide for you? In a game where people are trying to create stories with one another, it's just so so rude to not even make your own choices about your character. Make your own decisions about things that affect others.
I am not trying to upset you or drive you away or anything like that. I am laying bare the problems that I see and the things that will, ultimately, lead you to having a poor experience with the game.
They are being brought forth so that you can improve on them, nothing more.
Fish80 - Today at 1:01 AM
Thank you. What you're saying is resonating with me.

In all honesty I think I should have rbed Thom long ago. He wasn't supposed to get big or important, just sort of be a coming back to Eternia and adjusting character. Which is sort of where the rolls came from. I figured it would lead to a quicker death via agrivating the wrong pc or ect. Though if it truely is annoying for many of the players I will stop.

As for player based motviations could you please clarify for me what you mean a little bit? I find it difficult to base goals around characters because they die or positions change. This is why I gave Thom what I consider to be an unreachable goal. To always have something to fall back on, akin to the worshipers of belial via the belial arc and similar events.
StarMann - Today at 1:02 AM
Well the first question you have to ask is: "Do the people Thom surrounds himself with share his goal of a better world?"

If the answer is yes, the next question is: "What is he doing to help them?"
Fish80 - Today at 1:10 AM
The awnser to the first part I think would be not exactly. Thinking about Loranthis I would say the people he surrounds himself with are Nashandra, Syx, Sanseveria, Lorsha, Mazino, Maxwell, Wyatt, Vivian, Vivica, and Rin. (off the top of my head.)

Thom assists Nashandra on account of her being his fiance. Syx, Thom swore to assist given he had made a former contract with Conquest. Sanseveria he knows desires the world to have less cities and is attacking cities to help with. Following two are vampires whom he has no idea their full intentions besides growth and survial. Maxwell and Wyatt, Thom is training to be soilders, Vivian wants to be greed sin but have been unable to rp with her lately, vivica is five, and Rin is seeking to increase the amount of sins thus increasing depravity which he sees as useful.
StarMann - Today at 1:15 AM
Well the first thing I will say, is that unless you get a lot of people to join with you icly on the idea of bringing down angels then that idea will never really gel well. Partially because it's never going to happen and partially because it's a goal that nobody could ever off handedly agree or help you with.

As far as lofty ambitions go, it's a bit too lofty to be properly... sustainable.
The biggest problem that saps away all player motivation is if they are subject to something that they believe is ooc.
Take, for example, me. Towards the end of Gorandis, the people who ruled NV were getting shadier and shadier oocly. More extrme apps, bigger power grabs, roving around in gank squads, that sort of thing. And as they continued to be shitty towards other players, it made me start to wonder why I was putting my time into this game. Theywere going around basically bullying poeple into doing what they want. (They had previously bullied me oocly across both Magnus and Gorandis which ultimately led to the retirement of those characters.)

When you do things, you have to look at them from the outside.
You have to ask yourself "What do other people think of this?" and that is a hard question to ask. Because it's very hard to take a step back and look at your character.
As far as I have been able to gather, Thom's kindness comes across as aloofishness. That is to say, he comes off as being all "I'm just going to kill you now haha :p"

Which, as you might imagine is quite infuriating to be on the other end of. And this comes from the character not interacting as much as he should. From the outside it looks as though nothing ever affects the character. he doesn't change, his kind attitude always remains.

For example. Thom has changed his goals over the years, his goal has become more bitter and vile. But nothing outwardly reflects this and so while he is doing crueler things to draw the angels out. He's doing it with the same old smile.
And that loops back to the whole "he seems apart from the story" thing I mentioned earlier.
To put it bluntly.

Thom does not seem like a character.

So the best way to fix this, is to start changing. I'm not saying, "Oh, Thom now suddenly realises how evil he is and vindictive etc etc". What i am saying is, when you talk to these people take for example Sanse, and you talk to him about his want for destorying cities. How much does Thom actually talk about that other than simply agreeing?
Fish80 - Today at 1:36 AM
Honeslty I don't see the angel thing happening at all. It's more so his ic justification of 'if i do bad things, its ok because it will be fixed'

Though I think I'm seeing a little bit of what you're saying. Though.. I don't think that Thom comes off as much of a laughing 'going to kill you' type given that iirc he only has threatened one pc with death. Said pc had previously beaten him in a fight and was ripping appart his circuits. And.. Thom hasn't really killed any pcs iirc.

Though i think you're right. Thom tends not to really talk much with people, mainly asking what they want, and stemming conversations from there for allies. For Sanseveria, for instance, I believe they've had a grand total of two conversations, and both of those were rather short. And outside of that conversation he hasn't really talked about it.
StarMann - Today at 1:40 AM
Well then perhaps you should try to get more involved with others. You are the leader of the faction after all. Granted there's the war very soon so there's not much you can do up until then but as leader you do tend to have to fall back a little bit onto the others around you and give them things to do.

Usually these would be things that further your own goals but considering how vague your own goals are that will be pretty difficult. Instead it might be best to simply start by confirming what the people around you want, what their goals are and then seeing how you can help them with what you have.

Again, getting more involved.

As for the whole killing bit, the main thing that came to mind was Conquest.
Fish80 - Today at 1:46 AM
I am planning to get more involved if thom survives the war. Though is kind of difficult at points. Thom gets grabbed into a lot of rps, and for the main part remains outside of the White Tower so people can come up and speak with him if they neeed anything. But will attempt to interact more with the other members of the guild.

And ah. If I recall, it wasn't exactly him joking around during that occasion. The begining of the fight was anger, and Thom screaming about no one stealing from him. The latter parts of the fight did include laughing and chuckling but that was more so the result of Thom's enjoyment of fighting. I have the log if you would like to see.
StarMann - Today at 1:49 AM
That wont be necessary, I already know what conquest's player thought of the situation which is enough, and which is why I brought that one up specifically.

Regardless of everything, going back to the original topic. As per your app, I don't know what the decision about it is going to be. I've already stated my own issues with it (Mainly the lack of dev direction throughout)
Fish80 - Today at 1:52 AM
Ah. I understand if it doesn't get accepted due to that. But still, Thank you for taking the time to speak with me about these issues. I'll see about handling them and making Thom into a better character.
StarMann - Today at 1:55 AM
And please do try to avoid the "rolling for personality" situations. It does rather upset people to find out that the person they're talking to/is deciding their fate isn't making their own decision/putting their thought behind it.
Fish80 - Today at 1:56 AM
I will do so.
Fish80 - Today at 2:00 AM
Going to head to bed. have to work in eight hours. You have a good night!
StarMann - Today at 2:00 AM
Same to you