Bomberman Tournament "Notes"

PvtCb: Bases in Bomberman Tournament are random with their layouts lol
PvtCb: It's Doshin all over again
PvtCb: But really random this time
PvtCb: We dead?
PvtCb: I'm getting really excited to take Yashi's bhero any% record
danidesu: NICE
danidesu: do it
danidesu: yashi is a cock
PvtCb: I'm so stupidly close. All I need is a pretty good run and I got this
PvtCb: My sun of bests is 1:00 ahead of his
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PvtCb: *backflips*
danidesu: ded
PvtCb: *whistles*
danidesu: tumbleweed
LeafeonZ joined the room.
12:25 AM
PvtCb: Yeah that's priming
LeafeonZ: ah, ok
PvtCb: Lets you set up a complicated system to detonate bombs earlier
LeafeonZ: so there are skips?
LeafeonZ: oh, neat
PvtCb: In bases? There are 3 rooms in fantasy you can blaze through with three bomb and one room that has a broken spinner that sends you to the exit
PvtCb: I've looked really hard into skipping stuff in this game and it's mostly useless stuff
LeafeonZ: I wish you could skip ceedrun
LeafeonZ: only use him in that one little corridor
PvtCb: Like the second Karabon you get you can fight again immediately if you lose then flail on the d-pad
PvtCb: But it's useless because his pattern is 2x up, 2x down. The only random part is where the pattern starts
PvtCb: But you can win every time
LeafeonZ: yeah
12:30 AM
danidesu: who is this new
PvtCb: I really want to route 100% instead because FireKong and RC bombs do some really crazy shit but getting them both takes forever
PvtCb: VG asking about btourney
LeafeonZ: For the Kameking fight, I found that Seawing and P.Dragon is the best
LeafeonZ: hi
LeafeonZ: You basically don't need to train them at all
PvtCb: I use SeaWing then Unagi. P. Dragon is wrong type
PvtCb: Pure water deals double damage
PvtCb: And all elements besides fire deal 1x damage
LeafeonZ: hmm
LeafeonZ: alright
PvtCb: Sibloon is the backup but if he comes out you're basically screwed already
LeafeonZ: I went basically by level
LeafeonZ: probably best to do Unagi first and save before
LeafeonZ: since seawing doesn't really lose
LeafeonZ: oh, I guess it doesn't matter
LeafeonZ: resetting takes too long for this game
PvtCb: I still need to figure out what I'm doing for the bases in terms of RNG manipulation with saving
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12:36 AM
LeafeonZ: do you know how the rng for the bases works?
LeafeonZ: are there a few set patterns for the whole base?
LeafeonZ: is it by room?
PvtCb: Frame you enter base
PvtCb: Set patterns but it might as well be by room. There are a ton of layouts
LeafeonZ: Do you know how many?
LeafeonZ: otherwise, I could look at the ram
PvtCb: I got to 30 in Magnet before I stopped counting. This includes enemy movement
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LeafeonZ: enemy movement is determined by the base seed?
PvtCb: Enemy movement is also dictated by RNG in the overworld
PvtCb: Seeds are created base on frame until transition an area
PvtCb: *based
PvtCb: I also think if you die it gets reset but I haven't tested that
LeafeonZ: huh, interesting
LeafeonZ: you can skip the water bomb right?
LeafeonZ: or is that a flag for kaiman?
12:41 AM
PvtCb: Nope. Have to get TwinDragon for Pretty
PvtCb: Kaimin's trigger is medicine
LeafeonZ: you also need to talk to that lady on the south shore
LeafeonZ: by where you enter the water
LeafeonZ: you need a bomb to get to the whale?
LeafeonZ: I don't remember that
PvtCb: I actually need to test that
PvtCb: Yeah
LeafeonZ: I ran into that problem when I was playing through the game
PvtCb: I'm a little fuzzy on my notes past Magnet
LeafeonZ: you do need to talk to that lady
PvtCb: But I believe so
LeafeonZ: also, how do you get power bombs?
LeafeonZ: they may be worth it
PvtCb: Hammer
PvtCb: But they're outclassed by Elekong
LeafeonZ: true
LeafeonZ: so you can get elekong in ~45 seconds on average?
PvtCb: Yeah. Like one screen to the right after the village before the desert you transition up and down a lot and his oasis spawns
12:46 AM
LeafeonZ: alright
PvtCb: I think it's 6 transitions, talking to him, and exiting the oasis
PvtCb: P. Animal makes the pickup pretty quick
PvtCb: Speaking of which I suck at minivans you okay to rescue him
PvtCb: *minigame
PvtCb: Thanks phone
LeafeonZ: the minigames feel weird to me
LeafeonZ: especially that one
PvtCb: That one's just really hard. The other ones are easy to create a system for
PvtCb: But they are all awkward
LeafeonZ: I did that one pretty easily, but it just felt like it didn't really belong
PvtCb: I played it while seasick so it might just be that
PvtCb: Hudson was kinda scraping from the bottom of the barrel for ideas with btourney
LeafeonZ: yeah, lol
12:52 AM
LeafeonZ: huh, I'm still not sure if water bombs are needed...
LeafeonZ: I guess I'll see tonight
PvtCb: I have my GBA right here. I can check
LeafeonZ: alright
LeafeonZ: if you want
PvtCb: God bless routing games on portables
LeafeonZ: lol I wish I could find my cart
PvtCb: I got mine for $15 or so
PvtCb: The one I had as a kid died in an amazing way
LeafeonZ: how'd it die?
PvtCb: You ever seen what happens with a GB Pokemon game after it's Gamesharked hard? As the battery died all my data was wiped but a lot of the hearts could be picked up again
PvtCb: Blew my 12 year old mind
LeafeonZ: lol, nice
1:00 AM
LeafeonZ: I think the tough guy minigame is probably the worst
LeafeonZ: It was for me anyway
PvtCb: I thought that was pretty easy. All timing
LeafeonZ: I dunno, It felt like more rng to me
PvtCb: You do not need the Aqua bomb
LeafeonZ: alright, normal bomb all the way
PvtCb: Whale area is opened by a pressure switch
LeafeonZ: and all the money you need is 200G for the teryaki beef
PvtCb: Yeah
LeafeonZ: Do you get the bomb up in the PrettyBase?
PvtCb: You could pick up a second after you get Unagi for an easy heart
PvtCb: Teas
PvtCb: Yes
LeafeonZ: I was going to say that that ones pretty far out of the way, but it's probably worth it
LeafeonZ: wait, a second teriyaki beef?
1:06 AM
PvtCb: Yeah. Second teriyaki
LeafeonZ: is it still 200G?
PvtCb: Yeah
PvtCb: You get so much gold though
LeafeonZ: Yeah
LeafeonZ: But you can get a large potion in the same shop for 100G
PvtCb: I get the one out of Magnet and just hold it
LeafeonZ: yeah, I suppose
PvtCb: It's not needed until you get 5 health
LeafeonZ: I wish you could hold multiple
PvtCb: And if see your about to die you save or warp with Pommy
PvtCb: 90% of my deaths are caused by my own explosions
PvtCb: So you need a lot of health
LeafeonZ: lol, mine too
PvtCb: But the drop rate on small potions is usually enough to survive until you beat a base
LeafeonZ: it's much worse before p. knuckle and tough guy though
PvtCb: Bomb kick saved my stupid ass so much
LeafeonZ: yep, lol
LeafeonZ: and that's pretty much the best way for the max fight too
LeafeonZ: just kick and stop right next to him
1:11 AM
LeafeonZ: Have you done that priming glitch for any of the bosses?
LeafeonZ: I know it'd save a bunch of time at least for the 3rd boss
PvtCb: Nah. Lure him to a corner, equip p. animal, and drop bombs stop him from escaping
PvtCb: It's really handy with Magbat
PvtCb: *Magnet
PvtCb: Can't really use it on Pretty
PvtCb: I'm working on a field of death for the lat boss (blanking on his name), but Max keeps messing it up
LeafeonZ: BrainBomber
PvtCb: Ty
LeafeonZ: Do you know if the japanese version is very much different from us?
PvtCb: Yeah but that fight is horseshit even if you have landlines to cheese him
PvtCb: Really?
PvtCb: That's damn interesting
LeafeonZ: no, do you know if?
PvtCb: Nope
PvtCb: I know bhero USA and JP are almost entirely different games
LeafeonZ: Because if the text is just fast enough, you'd be able to skip a cycle on the last few bosses I think
LeafeonZ: because you can throw bombs if you hold while walking in
PvtCb: I think text is the standard one character per frame
LeafeonZ: yeah, but less text for JP
LeafeonZ: but the explosions don't hurt until after the text is gone
PvtCb: Yeah. I'm gonna keep routing with Eng and see if JP has anything new once I find a cart or a rom
1:16 AM
LeafeonZ: I suppose I could look into it as well
PvtCb: There's a 2 frame delay between a bomb being touched by a flame and it exploding
PvtCb: You could use that
LeafeonZ: hm
LeafeonZ: I don't know, in english, the bomb explodes far before the text is over
LeafeonZ: at least for how fast I've been mashing
PvtCb: I'm not entirely sure what this trick is so I'm just shooting ideas out
PvtCb: I could test it with TAS sometime
LeafeonZ: basically, you're able to set or throw a bomb as you're entering the boss room
LeafeonZ: before the cutscene starts
LeafeonZ: I don't know how many frames you have to set a bomb, but just holding a bomb makes you throw it when the cutscene starts
PvtCb: Before he takes your fuse Karabon?
LeafeonZ: yeah
LeafeonZ: hm
LeafeonZ: forgot about that part of it
LeafeonZ: the cutscene's probably too long anyway
PvtCb: I don't even know if they have a Hitbox before tgeyvtransform
PvtCb: Yay autocorrect
LeafeonZ: lol
LeafeonZ: I don't think they do
LeafeonZ: I just thought that maybe the cutscene would be fast enough in jp so that they would get one as the bomb explodes
PvtCb: Maybe something for 100% once you have FureKong
PvtCb: Just toss a bomb and mash b for first frame damage
LeafeonZ: yeah, that'd be cool
1:21 AM
LeafeonZ: you can change karabons before you screen transition by the way
LeafeonZ: so that would work
PvtCb: It's pretty picky from what I rememb
PvtCb: er
LeafeonZ: yeah, it's not too easy
LeafeonZ: well, more it's easy to mess up
PvtCb: There's a lot of really crazy frame-perfect tricks I found while TASing btourney
LeafeonZ: really? Like what?
LeafeonZ: anything doable?
LeafeonZ: in RTA
PvtCb: Like if you diagonally rub a corner for less than 7 frames you get a 2 pixel teleport after you clear the corner
PvtCb: And there's a bomb prime in Louie Forest that's fran-perfect that saves 4 seconds
LeafeonZ: is that the first forest?
PvtCb: Yeah
LeafeonZ: or which?
LeafeonZ: oh, wow
1:27 AM
PvtCb: The TAS hasn't  gotten past Magnet yet because I'm trying to find the optimal layout but there is likely going to be some new stuff with throws
PvtCb: You can keep the explosion going to stunlick sveything
PvtCb: *stunlock everything
LeafeonZ: like keep throwing bombs into the explosion?
PvtCb: Yeah. I used it a lot in Plasma because some of those enemies suck to attack twice
PvtCb: After the short recovery frames they're danagd again
LeafeonZ: Yeah, that's what I had found
LeafeonZ: how many recovery frames do they have?
PvtCb: I think something between 40 and 80
PvtCb: Need to test that out
LeafeonZ: and it runs at basically 60 fps?
PvtCb: Yeah
PvtCb: I haven't seen any lag frams anywhere
1:33 AM
LeafeonZ: wait, bizhawk can't do gba?
PvtCb: There's a custom Visualboy emulator
LeafeonZ: huh
PvtCb: I use it for the lua scripting
LeafeonZ: can you view the ram with it?
PvtCb: You can count individual lag frames
LeafeonZ: I was more going for testing how many base layouts there are
PvtCb: Oh. I am not sure
LeafeonZ: I think I can do it with MHS, but it wasn't working correctly for alttp, so I'm not sure
PvtCb: http:/​/​code.google.com/​p/​vba-rerecording/
PvtCb: Yeah there's a built in script function to get the ram
1:39 AM
LeafeonZ: nice, this is pretty much what bizhawk has
PvtCb: I used bizhawk once for a bhero trick
PvtCb: Not that familiar with it
LeafeonZ: I started looking into the Oracle games with it, just seeing what values it had for speeds and stuff like that
LeafeonZ: it's pretty interesting to look into the values the games work with
PvtCb: IIRC kirkq said bhero changes enemy layiur every couple thousand clock cycles
1:44 AM
PvtCb: *layouts

WTF do I do for 100% in btourney? (all bombs, all karabons, all upgrades (shoes/armor/fire/bomb/hearts)
WHAT KARABONS for any% (all but Th. Liger, Pteradon, Elekong (99% sure he's faster to get), MariGon, FireKong)

Ceedrun 2x, switch (EZPZ)
Bombdrop Arrow Lane? (Re-check, but doubtful)
Barrels and bombs, random??? (Bases random, but should even out)
Warp back to base start (Golem)
Bomb primer (kicks, throws, early places, RC)
Magnet FireUp
SILVER SHOES
Landmine on Dragon? (100% only, almost certainly slower to get camera, photograph Louie, hand over photograph, get sensor, exchange Sensor for Landmine, and equip Landmine for Magnet)
Corner Max
Re-use spinners
Landmines are now mandatory
Explosion re-use



#Global
=16 pixel blocks
=2 pixel slide after released input
=3 frame input delay
=80% Karabons for clear
~Check Pommy warp times
~Check equip speeds
?Tank rooms


>Elekong?
+safe
+really fast
-slightly out of way
~worth it for Golem base alone

>MariGon?
+safe primes
+early game
?faster primes
-fairly out of way
~check how long it takes to pickup

>FireKong?
+safety
+fast primes
?needs RC Bombs to be really useful
-late game
-really out of way
~check combo with RC bomb, check pattern speed up
~check the base pickup time

>Fire Ups?
+faster bosses and rooms
+
-dangerous
-slightly out of way
~check the base pickup time

>Bomb Ups?
/So many tricks involve bomb throws it's stupid to skip the first upgrade. The debate is over 3 bomb or 4 bomb
~check the base pickup time

>Armor?
/You're always a few hits away from death. Outside of the boss hearts and maybe the teriyaki heart, you have no extra health
+global safety net
~check the base pickup time

>Karabon Master Battle?
/KameKing is lvl 57 Fi/Wa/El
/Best 2 out of 3
?Wa 2x, Ea 1x, El 1x, Fi 0x
?SeaWing, Unagi, Sibloon, anyone high level

#ROUTE
Skip Girl
Enter Forest
Skip Louie
Get Ring
Exit Forest
Give ring to girl
Get Pommy
Beat Karabon trainer
Exit Alpha
Travel to Beta
Clear barrels
Get Radar
Exit Beta
Enter Magnet
Get Elifan
Get Silver Shoes
Fuse P. Fangs
Defeat Magnet
Get Sharkun
Enter Gamma
?Get Transistor
Enter Delta
Get RainDrop
Enter Delta
Create AquaBomb
Get Medicine
Get Kai-Man
Enter Sea