Hypocrisy in the morning, Hypocrisy in the Evening, from ST's here at Trinity you can get Hypocrisy all the time! You can ban me but you cant shut me down, this is the game you are all supporting and playing. https://pastebin.com/H6Me5ELY This is how vile and toxic this place can be and the staff can be.  They knew M3 was Lilith.  Have a good day.. I'll be playing werewolf the Gestation.



[11:21:50] <Seth> Can I make a suggestion?
[11:21:56] <Seth> WIth jo
[11:22:12] <Khirsyth> Yeah?
[11:22:53] <Seth> Allow someone else to handle the head with jo give her a chance, and let her know that ooc drama needs to stop give her a warning and allow someone else to handle her.. I do know there are some issues on both sides however I do feel that she has been a key part of the game and of the setting so far..
[11:23:45] <Seth> The Kevin stuff, Kevin can sometimes be a pain.. his ooc issues sometimes bleed through and he has episodes of drama.. the Moira stuff I dont know her well enough and only going off things I seen on the backend and things I have heard she can also be a challenge with dealing with stuff
[11:24:32] <Seth> Jo can be ball of fire sometimes, and can be stressful but give her a warning that it stops or else and give her a chance but also take steps to ensure someone else tends to handle her.. never making calls without talking with the rest of the staff but give her a different face shes dealing with
[11:24:50] <Khirsyth> No.  She's burned her last bridge, man.  Like, she has made deeply personal attacks.  I'm not at liberty to describe the details, because it was something I swore to keep confidential.  But her words to someone else in his game, about a third person in this game, were unforgivable.

Jo's ban.. and last final straw with no evidence..

8/7/17
Kaarin lead Plot ST in ST Chambers talking about another player on the server...

[19:31:22] <@TabletKaarin> Everything I've ever heard about Punks, from multiple sources, has lead me to inescapable conclusions: M3 is a narcissit and sadist, and Punks, far from being a "horror game" is, in fact, simply an outlet for that sadism.  There's a reason virutally every from there, when talking about their experiences, sounds like the victims in so many domestic violence and sexual assault cases I handle.
[19:32:51] <@TabletKaarin> But the drama has really been people bringing shit that goes on there over here, which I think we've put a stop to.
[19:35:15] * Lost is now known as Katherine
[19:39:34] <Seth> I dont know what to say to that, besides get to know some of the people there, instead of listening to those who may no longer play there, Case in point would SarahH or anyone else who no longer plays here be a good representation of Trinity?
[19:40:19] <@TabletKaarin> A number of my stories came from people who were presently playing there at the time, and remain so.
[19:42:20] <@TabletKaarin> I'm just laying that out there for the sake of transparency.  I'm glad that you keep it seperate, I try my damndest to do so, but hat's where the bullshit with that came from: getting to hear about it from multiple sources.


Hypocrisy much?

Email Corrispondance between Tom and myself:

I cannot support a game that will ban a player for OOC drama that they are not going around causing.. Thats bullshit and childish.

Tom Brazier
Aug 2 (6 days ago)

to me, trinity-st
That's too bad, Tiny.  It's unfortunate that you're only willing to accept one side of the issue.  We didn't want to discuss it publicly, which is our right.  So... if you're only willing to accept one side of a story, there's nothing we can do about it.

Tom

OOC:
Tom Brazier
CA199908187

Anthony Samora <tinyneustra@gmail.com>
Aug 2 (6 days ago)

to Tom
I've seen multiple sides of the issue tom, hell there have been times when combat or other scenes were getting ran that I have had other ST's yelling at me because I was asking rules questions that were in line with the core material of w20.. I havent heard one side or another but what I do know is the issues between Moira and Jo have been blowing up icly, and there has probably been some ooc yelling and screaming between the parties.. but for a ban of a player.. who has spoken nothing but kind things about you and this game.. I cant wrap my mind around.

Tom Brazier
Aug 2 (6 days ago)

to me
Actually, it's FAR more than the Moira/Jo situation.  It has more to do with the fact that other than myself, an ST can't make a ruling in the game without Jo arguing.  The fact that she shares pm's that she gets upset about with multiple people, creating rumor-mongering and tons of OOC drama.  Like, on at LEAST a weekly basis.  And I'm stuck in the middle every time, trying to defuse the situations she's causing, unless it's me that she's yelling at.  So while she may say many nice things to others, there's FAR more behind the scenes than what is seen on the surface.

As for STs yelling at you in combats/scenes, it's because the middle of a scene isn't really the ideal time to discuss a rules call, as the STs are usually dealing with a dozen+ pms, and coordinating all sorts of things.  So if there's a ruling you disagree with, it's generally more polite to wait until after the scene is complete and talking with them then.  So long as the ruling doesn't completely fuck over your pc, it can usually wait.

Tom

OOC:
Tom Brazier
CA199908187

Anthony Samora <tinyneustra@gmail.com>
Aug 2 (6 days ago)

to Tom
To be perfectly honest and fair Tom those things I haven't seen.. Not once have I gotten a pm share from anyone.. So I cant attest to that.  As for some of the other stuff without seeing it it does look like Jo would be in the wrong there, however I will also say of the sts the only one that really ever made me feel welcome was you. I've been doing irc role-playing since 2005, been playing v20 and w20 in tt and irc since they came out.  There are many things that have popped up "oh this is just a house rule" and there is never any supporting documentation to the house rules, to be told one thing from one, and another thing from the other when asking questions, even outside of combat.  I understand your healing right now from your surgery and its unfair for this to have happened now with everything else going on. But the stance thats being taken right now looks as if the Trinity Staff are taking Moira over Jo in whos side to take with this spat that did start over at Punks.  It has continued here with OOC influencing ic on both parties ends.  And bans are getting thrown out during anger not a calm discussion. That to me is an abuse of power.. it sets a precedence that you gotta walk on eggshells around the staff or you might be next.


Tom Brazier
Aug 2 (6 days ago)

to me
I understand where you're coming from, Tiny.  And believe me.  I'm NOT taking Moira's side.  I have defended Jo time and time again to the other STs, and even to other players.

A little history on the game:  The game was founded by SarahH.  She brought me, Kev, Laska, and Sarah on.  I convinced her to bring Kaarin on.  SarahH was the source of a LOT of ooc drama in the group, to the point where we had players leave.  I was originally only here for rules and character creation.  And SarahH had a HUGE beef with Jo.  Huge.  Anyway, it got to the point where the game was going to die with SarahH in charge.  So we kicked her off staff.  A week later, she forced us, through more drama, to ban her from the game that she created.

We have spent the 2+ months since trying to get caught up.  SarahH left us with nothing.  Not a single note.  We have been playing catch-up since then, trying to resolve the plots that she started that people were actually interested in.  Between that and the loss of a lot of data with more than one Forum crash, we've been scrambling to keep our heads above water.  So a lot of the house rules, we're still working out.  When you've asked, a lot of the time we discussed it real quick in the ST room and came to a consensus.  Or it was something we THOUGHT was posted, but was among the lost information.

We try to ACT like we've got our shit together, but a lot of the time, we're not really sure.  I've been playing MET for the last 20 years, as have Sarah and Kaarin.  We're still getting our heads around TT.  And a lot of the shit we use is holdover from when we DID play TT, so long ago.  So... yeah.  We're doing the best we can with a shitty situation.

Tom


OOC:
Tom Brazier
CA199908187


Anthony Samora <tinyneustra@gmail.com>
Aug 2 (6 days ago)

to Tom
Look I feel you and understand fully man.  IRC is an environment that you cant look at from MET or even TT you gotta blend both, and also take into account the 24 / 7 aspect of the environment.   Look here this will be easier if I log on and we chat ..

Anthony Samora <tinyneustra@gmail.com>
Aug 3 (5 days ago)

to Tom
Another big thing for you to consider, out of character drama will always happen in games like this however as staff when you guys have to deal with it, there is a distraction from plot, a distraction from the game, and ultimately your playing ref more than St.  It's an easy soultion a group of non staff who serve as the first line of mediation between players and players and also between players and staff someone level headed who can sometimes have to be the go between the mediator and the person who handles the shit and hopefully serves as enough of a shit shield for staff that no bans like last night happened


Anthony Samora <tinyneustra@gmail.com>
3:15 PM (1 hour ago)

to Tom
What's funny is that in the past week we have come to this crossroads where I was not going to sit by and have a friend and a player of your game, have so much toxic things said about her from another member of your staff, I shared what was said about her because simply put the gross hypocrisy of what happened with Jo and then what was said last night about Michelle quite amazes me. To think that this opinion has been formed through third-party contact, and that members of your staff have formulated an opinion in a viewpoint without even getting to know Michelle or her game. But if taken off of fact the words of jaded former players who disagreed with their Viewpoint of the world of Darkness. To put it this way would Jo or even SarahH be a good representation of what Trinity stands for, I think you and I both know the answer to that one, however the words said by Kaarin is a representation of what Trinity stands for and that jealousy and toxicity will never breed a positive environment for gaming. I genuinely wished to help you I was sincere and honest from day one however I do not see myself as being banned from your server because I had left before the band had happened I hit made the decision that the toxicity was going to become an unhealthy environment, in an environment that breeds contempt and utter disdain for anything that is not your game.

Anthony Samora <tinyneustra@gmail.com>
4:11 PM (33 minutes ago)

to Tom
Also you should know that Michelle has given you an open invite to her game irc.werewolfpunks.com 6667

Tom Brazier
4:23 PM (21 minutes ago)

to me
Kaarin's statements about M3 were not representative of Trinity, or of me.  I don't agree with her assessment of Michelle at all, and i've told her as much.  As far as punks goes, I've been honest with Michelle about my concerns about her game, and admitted that it's solely based on what I've heard from her players, both current and former.

We -do- have a reason to be hesitant to trust Michelle, however, given that she lied to us for months about who she was.  We knew, or at least highly suspected, who she was, but we allowed her to play anyway, and encouraged her to get involved.  She only came forward about her real identity because we made a forum post about wanting to stop the drama between Trinity and Punks.

The issues that I have with Punks are based on stories I've heard from players both current and former.  And it's not just about the STs.  It's stories of actions by players and STs both.  But all that means to me is that it's not a game that I would join, and I don't want to hear about it.  That's it.  Everyone has a different interpretation of the World of Darkness, and all are valid.  I didn't -want- to run a standard WoD game.  I want to bring in more horror and shit than we've had thus far, but we still wanted a different tone to Trinity.  Something not explored.  And it's not for everyone, either.  Shrug.

I admit that the Jo situation was handled badly.  I fucked up there, with how it was done.  I'm not even sure that the reasons were completely justified.  But I'm not the only ST. I'm just the one that has to be the bad guy for shit like that.

The bottom line here is, I understand both sides of the situation.  And once again, I'm stuck in the middle.  Kaarin is entitled to her opinion, as are we all.  To think that she, speaking not in a public room but in the ST room where we are supposed to be able to talk about our views and concerns of things, is wholly representative of the game is a gross oversimplification, and simply inaccurate.  To believe that we have disdain and contempt for all games not ours is also a baseless accusation.  And to spread one side of a more complex story to others, as you have done, is to be guilty of the same sort of toxicity you accuse us of.

So... thank you for taking the time to email me personally about what happened last night.  I do appreciate it. And whether you view yourself as banned or having quit, the end result is the same.  You've showed yourself to be untrustworthy.  I bear you no ill will, truly, and wish things could have been different.  But they're not, and I can't afford the stress.

Tom



OOC:
Tom Brazier
CA199908187

Anthony Samora <tinyneustra@gmail.com>
4:38 PM (6 minutes ago)

to Tom
What is the difference between saying something in the ST room, about a player, to two other people, and saying something in a private message where you think it is going to be private about another player? Please tell me what the difference between the two situations are?

Tom Brazier
4:43 PM (8 minutes ago)

to me
I'm not talking about the M3 thing.  I'm talking about Kaarin's comments about Lucas.  I'm aware that you shared that, as well.  And if I hadn't been in the middle of having a major anxiety attack, I would have quelled her concerns, because I had talked about the stereotypical Fianna thing with the player when they were making the character.  But of course, you decided to share it with them, when it was an ST bringing up a potential concern.  Which is what we DO.  The STs use the ST room to talk about concerns so that we're all on the same page.

I -get- sharing the comment about Michelle with her.  But the small comment about Lucas was a different story altogether.

OOC:
Tom Brazier
CA199908187

Anthony Samora <tinyneustra@gmail.com>
4:47 PM (4 minutes ago)

to Tom
There was no comments shared with Jamie, I shared a conversation she was having with me, at the same time you were talking to her.  I was showing you what she was saying to me.

Anthony Samora <tinyneustra@gmail.com>
4:49 PM (2 minutes ago)

to Tom
As you can see here is my entire chat history with Jamie.  AKA Lucas..

https://pastebin.com/zVxT39wb

Please point out to me where I shared something with her?   Point out to me where I was untrustworthy..

Anthony Samora <tinyneustra@gmail.com>
4:51 PM (0 minutes ago)

to Tom
Because your saying " I'm talking about Kaarin's comments about Lucas.  I'm aware that you shared that, as well.  And if I hadn't been in the middle of having a major anxiety attack, I would have quelled her concerns, because I had talked about the stereotypical Fianna thing with the player when they were making the character.  But of course, you decided to share it with them, when it was an ST bringing up a potential concern."  And that never happened, Think what you will Tom.. I only shared with M3 what was said.. But lets accuse me of being the devil, the untrustworthy man, who came to your server with ill intent to destroy it for reasons unknown?

Tom Brazier
4:51 PM (0 minutes ago)

to me
Well, somehow she knew that Kaarin (specifically, mind you) had said that she thought Lucas may only be around for ERP,  The only people in the room for that were you, me, Kaarin, and Lost.  None of US shared that with her.

OOC:
Tom Brazier
CA199908187

Anthony Samora <tinyneustra@gmail.com>
4:55 PM (0 minutes ago)

to Tom
Thats extremely funny that I would share that with Jamie when the night before in Kaarins IM this is what I had said.

[22:22:03] Session Ident: Mihaela- (DarkMyst, Lucian[SF5]) (TabletKaar@lsdb-520-06-378-40.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
[22:22:03] <Mihaela-> Dunno how much more time you have.  Think i'm awake for like fourty minutes at the most left.
[22:22:10] <Lucian[SF5]> lol
[22:22:19] <Lucian[SF5]> I'm awake for at least a couple hours
[22:22:45] <Lucian[SF5]> See when I first came here from Jos invite
[22:24:18] <Lucian[SF5]> I came close to just leaving.. from some of the players I seen here, I have butted heads in the past with Kevin/Alaska on 2 different games.. Alaska and I have never gotten along
[22:24:57] <Lucian[SF5]> Clur, I cant proove it but in a game about two years ago I believe was invovled in a metagamed plot to have killed a past character of mine
[22:25:13] <Lucian[SF5]> Than Jamie and her husband showed, and again Jamie really i think just plays for ERP
[22:25:17] <Lucian[SF5]> and her husband is almost as bad
[22:26:44] <Mihaela-> Jamie being Lucas?
[22:26:48] <Lucian[SF5]> yes
[22:27:03] <Lucian[SF5]> See Jamie and her Husband used to be Kevin and Megans downstairs neighbors back in Cleveland
[22:27:08] <Lucian[SF5]> or Ohio
[22:27:30] <Lucian[SF5]> They never lived in cleveland but in some small community close to pitts I think
[22:27:46] <Mihaela-> Ah.  Well, glad you stayed.  Our general view is that most people get a chance.  There's one or two I'd kickban on sight, but those are rare, like the convicted raper I know.
[22:27:54] <Mihaela-> Oh thank god, not Canton.
[22:30:36] <Mihaela-> Anyway, you get her fun character development now.  Sorry, digression, I know.  I haven't seen Clur or Pocket around a while, thoug.
[22:59:14] <Mihaela-> I'm about to pass out.  Doctor in the moring.
[22:59:36] <Lucian[SF5]> be safe!
[23:00:25] <Mihaela-> Gonna try. She'll give him the quick tour, point out the fun things about the umbra like, "And this is where the SEPT Drake makes her lair."
[23:00:45] <Lucian[SF5]> In the umbra she sees The punisher more
Session Close: Sun Aug 06 23:00:55 2017

Funny how her views she expressed to you, were the views I expressed to her the night before based on a track record I have seen in the past.

Yep I sure would bait that into being said, only to share it with player..

Tom Brazier
4:59 PM (5 minutes ago)

to me
I have no idea, then.  Because Lucas specifically said it was Kaarin that said it.  And she did, in that conversation last night in the ST room.  I know Kaarin, Sarah and I did not share that.  So... if you didn't, then I apologize for the accusation.  Though it leaves the question of who did.

OOC:
Tom Brazier
CA199908187

Anthony Samora <tinyneustra@gmail.com>
5:03 PM (0 minutes ago)

to Tom
It is what it is.  I didnt share that with her, because again I have the same viewpoint of Jamie. I brought my concern up to Kaarin during a scene between Lucian/Mihaela/Lucas as Kaarin was talking to be about getting a player engaged because that scene Jamie was far from engaged in.


Anthony Samora <tinyneustra@gmail.com>
5:10 PM (3 minutes ago)

to Tom
I did break the trust of the ST room, I did so in one instance that I am not going to hide away from or shy away from, there were extremly toxic and hurtful things said from Kaarin towards another player of your game, in a Personal attack, as you put it tom, with the last straw from Jo..

[11:24:50] <Khirsyth> No.  She's burned her last bridge, man.  Like, she has made deeply personal attacks.  I'm not at liberty to describe the details, because it was something I swore to keep confidential.  But her words to someone else in his game, about a third person in this game, were unforgivable.

The comments she made directed about Michelle, was nothing less than that.. I am sorry I very much doubt what ever Jo said reached the vile level of what Kaarin said about M3..

And Michelle Deserved to know, I stand by that 100%.  Venting is one thing, bringing up concerns about a player is another, but to make a statement like she made last night was only to further drive a wedge between this game and hers, why I do not know, maybe she has believed everything that Moira and Other Tom have said about Punks, Maybe she beleived the things Jamie said about punks, (Jamie from what I have seen was always a cause of that drama she so wanted to get away from).

Here is what I know about punks, Its got a strong community of active players, its a dark and gritty game, and the combat and big things are spaced out, the grind is there to give you a sense of accomplishment instead of a quick growth.  Again two philosophy a difference in view from you and them.. It happens, breeding in there eyes is a key part of the Garou culture and nation because Garou are facing extinction however no one is forced to breed, no one is forced to do something they are uncomfortable with.  No one is forced in a scene.


I will say I shared the entire conversation with m3 and Jo /after/ I was already banned.. so either of them could have shared it with Jamie, it was sort of a wow look I got banned and this is the leadup to that ban.. but the moment I was "banned" all understandings of confidence were out the window.  Kaarin had my email, you had my email.. but no I was banned because I shared what Kaarin said to M3.. thats why I was banned from the server by Kaarin at least.

Tom Brazier
5:17 PM (9 minutes ago)

to me
You're right.  Kaarin definitely crossed the line, and I have told her as much.  I also do not blame you for sharing with Michelle.

As a note - a lot of our opinions on Punks are based not on what Moira and OtherTom have said about it, but rather what Jo has said, both about the game and about Michelle.