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- Denivarius
- #0699
- boarddiscussion
- Welcome to the beginning of the #boarddiscussion channel.
- Vultraz - 10/03/2016
- ah, now we just need iceiceice
- Vultraz - 10/03/2016
- im gonna send another pm to iceiceice asking him to get in here
- since discord displays backlog, though, I'll ask a few things now
- First off, dave, have you heard from ElGalloGringo recently? I have not seen him on IRC in a while.
- I do hope he agrees to work on the port. He seemed invested in it when I spoke to him, but I don't know what last was heard from him after I pointed him to Dave
- Either way, I'd like to make a suggestion regarding payment of the new iOS porter, whoever that may become. The current payment swap system as Dave described in his PM last week seems rather unnecessary. I would propose wesnoth.inc is listed as the payee and our Treasurer be responsible for sending the new porter his cut monthly.
- Secondly, about the Treasurer position, I'd like to state for the record that I'll leave it up to Richard (jetrel) or Chris (iceiceice) to decide between them who gets to be Treasurer. While I appreciate the faith Dave has expressed in my abilities, I don't feel I'd be up to the job, so I'll leave it to be between the other two of you on the Board.
- Thirdly, as Dave mentioned, the Treasurer position will be a legal one within the company. Will the remaining two of us not have legal/official positions?
- If so, why is this?
- Denivarius - 10/03/2016
- @Vultraz so as far as I know ElGalloGringo is still interested however I asked him to wait. I think we need to discuss as a board whether we want to him to go ahead with the port and if we do if we agree with him getting 25%. I agree with our treasurer sending him his 25%. Also we need to decide if we do this and then remove dailin's port and if so is there anything we can do to not leave purchasers of dailin's port out in the cold?
- Vultraz - 10/03/2016
- 25/75 seems a reasonable split given the amount of work.
- better than 50/50.
- that will give us more funds too.
- but we'll need to discuss further once iceiceice arrives
- October 4, 2016
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- hi
- Jetrel - 10/04/2016
- hey there
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- so, green light means, currently has the app open?
- Jetrel - 10/04/2016
- I think so...
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- cool
- Jetrel - 10/04/2016
- @Vultraz btw, I tried typing some stuff yesterday evening, here, but 1] I'm not seeing it logged in from this location, and 2] the text showed up in red
- I'm wondering if that was a voice/permissions setting, or a failure to connect to the server?
- I've never seen red (or any custom color) text in discord before.
- https://twitter.com/discordapp/status/724355479976161280
- Discord@discordapp
- @cgpwhite ah, got it. Red text means a connection error and wasn't sending. Keep us updated if you run into it agian.
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- so, Dave wrote a pretty good message in his wesnoth forum pm, let me comment on some items from there
- so i guess the first one i want to ask is about the iphone port,
- is there a reason that we do it by contract and not just like, develop it ourselves and / or merge it into the wesnoth git repo?
- or, can we try to get ElGalloGringo to commit whatever extra code he writes / project files into the wesnoth repo?
- i have never actually made an iphone port, i don't have an iphone
- i made an android app once for a project some years ago, which while pretty small, wasn't that difficult
- what is the main challenge, is it that getting an acceptable UI takes a lot of practice?
- Jetrel - 10/04/2016
- I think this touches on multiple points:
- - 1] having the source code in our source tree - I think this is overwhelmingly desirable.
- - 2] having the mobile UI be an alternate display option for the core game, and not a weird, hacked-together alteration of the game's codebase with lots of stuff dummied/disabled out
- #2 is honestly the reason both the dailin port and the kyle poole port were not in our source tree - because those developers, in the interest of speed-to-market, both gave up on keeping their codebase running on regular computers - their changes quickly and totally broke the code for the regular display/ui of the game.
- kyle did post his publicly at one point, for us, but because by the time he was done, it was so different from our codebase, I think anyone who looked at it gave up. I'm unaware if dailin posted his.
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- i see
- Jetrel - 10/04/2016
- - 3] having someone on our team actually do the work of building the mobile version
- I think #3 is really quite hard, but it's really just down to the mobile UI stuff. At this point, iPhones are powerful enough that straight-porting the game is only going to be somewhat more difficult than doing a mac build (definitely some work on memory reclamation, which would not be trivial at all) .... but I guess my statement is that it'd be vastly easier than it was back in the dark days of the original iPhones with 128mb of ram (and only really 40-60mb left for your app after the OS)
- Like it's no longer mandatory to do an opengl port due to the hardware being so pathetic.
- The game could just blit in software; sure, we'd kill the battery, but hardware's pretty beefy these days.
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- i mean none of the other ports are opengl ports, right?
- Jetrel - 10/04/2016
- I think kyle's was... but I really have no idea.
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- i didn't know that, interesting
- Jetrel - 10/04/2016
- He made it fairly performant on the original iPhone, and I vaguely remember him having done a full-on openGL port.
- The nice thing of course is that #3's primary work - doing the UI stuff, would work on android in equal measure.
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- yeah
- Jetrel - 10/04/2016
- As indeed would any openGL rewriting, were that to ever happen.
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- i mean it seems that a lot of the work in the last year or so has been about fixing problems in wesnoth's gui
- so i tend to think that efforts to support mobile ui are not that orthogonal to what has been happening recently
- Jetrel - 10/04/2016
- Aye
- I've gotta apologize here - going afk for half an hour or so
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- ok
- Jetrel - 10/04/2016
- ttfn
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- how long does ElGalloGringo think a port would take?
- Denivarius - 10/04/2016
- Well we mentioned the figure of 3 months, but I think it's hard to say.
- It is a good point that if we could get someone to port it for the good of the project and not take a cut that would be awesome.
- I mean, it is true that lots of people (i.e. almost all developers and members of the community) contribute a lot to Wesnoth without expecting financial compensation.
- the big reason why I agreed to give Kyle Poole a cut was (1) at the time iPhone porting was a very specialized skill; (2) it was a long and risky endeavor that looked like it had pretty dismal chances of success.
- Vultraz - 10/04/2016
- The truth of the matter is we have less than half a dozen active devs doing active work on the wesnoth project.
- As far as I know, none of them have the hardware or skills for app development
- So I think the chance of one of them working on a port for the good of the project to be very small.
- Vultraz - 10/04/2016
- I think it's worth paying a cut of the profits to get the port made and out there.
- Instead of the usual wesnoth prerogative of "wait for someone to do it"
- Denivarius - 10/04/2016
- right, that's kind of the reason to pay for it.
- Vultraz - 10/04/2016
- as for ogl/hardware acceleration on the desktop version, we're getting there...very...slowly
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- Vultraz, i think they might agree to work on things like, helping to fix gui code that has to work on iphone and desktop
- Vultraz - 10/04/2016
- perhaps
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- i guess when you pay for it at least you get some guarantee that its going to happen in some fixed amount of time and work
- Vultraz - 10/04/2016
- as long as the work is necessary for the ios port and not just the desktop version
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- vultraz: i think the ogl on the desktop has gotten significantly easier in the last two years or so
- in that you can now actually get an opengles2 context on most devices
- including os x, and windows,
- Vultraz - 10/04/2016
- the problem is a lot of stuff needs to b e refactored in the desktop version
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- where previously you would hvae to have some complicated fallback or use directx or something
- Vultraz - 10/04/2016
- especially getting rid of the custom blitting function
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- i should mention that, i tinkered alot with ogl in the last two years or so,
- Vultraz - 10/04/2016
- which i have mostly, except for the gui2 canvas
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- when fabi and i were working on game stuff
- i was able to get OGL basically working on all platforms, including OS X, emscripten, windows
- it's still pretty difficult, i mean, the way i've done it, i just make calls to the opengl api directly
- i made a small series of wrappers but i'm not really doing anything advanced....
- getting the graphics basically working is a big job though
- idk, i think it would be interesting to try to make a port to iphone
- but i cant dedicate 3 months to it, thats for sure
- Vultraz - 10/04/2016
- that's why we're paying :stuck_out_tongue:
- I think we all generally agree that doing so is a good idea
- I think 25% is reasonable
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- yah
- Vultraz - 10/04/2016
- if, in the course of implementing things for the ios port, there are some improvements to the desktop version, all the better
- iceiceice - 10/04/2016
- yah ok, for the record i agree with that
- Vultraz - 10/04/2016
- related to this, we need to get the treasurer position finalized, because that person will presumably be dealing with paying the porter.
- I also see one other issue, and that is that dailin might not take too kindly to being essentially told 'shoo, we're gettting rid of your thing for a new thing that we're paying the guy less for'.
- Jetrel - 10/04/2016
- I think I'd probably lean towards iceiceice doing the treasury stuff - I'm a tad strapped for time, here.
- Vultraz - 10/04/2016
- Well, then, that would seem to settle it.
- I still would like clarification as to the comparitive "officialness" of your and my positions within the company, as I requested yesterday, since Dave only mentioned that the treasurer would have an official legal position.
- Denivarius - 10/04/2016
- @Vultraz : I think for now we can get by with only having the treasurer listed as an officer of the company.
- @Vultraz my biggest concern with having a new port is that existing customers who paid for it might not be able to get the new version for free? Which sounds like a massive dick move on our part.
- I'm not sure if there is a way we could transfer things over.
- Denivarius - 10/04/2016
- Also, I have the details from Dailin of the iTunes Connect account for his port
- does anybody know about transferring this to an account we control?
- because if one of you wants to work on doing that that would be great, if it's possible.
- account: 359340184@qq.com
- password: mmm probably shouldn't post it here. But I can PM it if someone wants to take that on?
- also just FYI our accountants are currently preparing taxes for this year.
- I don't think we will have to pay any taxes. But we will have to pay our accountants. A lot. :frowning:
- Vultraz - 10/04/2016
- alright. I do think it should at least be publically noted in a prominent location who the board comprises of at all times.
- as for this account thing, I'll leave it to (probably) jet, since he's the mac user.
- Jetrel - 10/04/2016
- @Denivarius @Vultraz I'm willing to do the legwork on the account transfer, although I'll most likely need to have Rotonen guide me through the process (since he's expressed willingness to do so before?)
- Vultraz - 10/04/2016
- I actually have no idea what iTunes Connect is, ftr
- Denivarius - 10/04/2016
- @Jetrel: okay will PM you the password.
- October 5, 2016
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- @Jetrel btw, now that lordbob has returned to the desert elf poritraits, wil you be getting back to the sprites?
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- Okay so question: Do we want to ask ElGalloGringo to proceed with his port of the game? Are there any additional requirements we want to put on? Do we want to give him a time frame we expect it to be complete in?
- I have been keeping him waiting for some time so we could form the board and such to make a decision. Is this what we want to go ahead with?
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- @Denivarius can we post a quick recap of the basic requirements we're stating to him? I mean, I'm pretty sure the answer is yes, but that's kind of a question without firm context.
- iceiceice - 10/05/2016
- re: treasurer stuff, i would be happy to do that. i also would like to look into doing the taxes ourselves as mentioned in forum pm, that sounds like a good thing.
- i will be back later
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- I don't think it's a good idea to dispense with the accountants.
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- Well it depends. If someone can volunteer to do it and understands it all we can.
- for this year we will still use accountants, those wheels are in motion.
- @Jetrel: so major terms are him getting 25% of revenue. He would complete the port within 3 months and if he doesn't he would give us a status report and we would have the rights to choose a new porter. Also the idea is that he hopefully continues working on, improving, and even promoting it -- worthwhile for him since he gets 25%. The more it makes the more he makes -- but if at any point we are unhappy/think someone else could do better, we can replace him with a new porter, or take the port in-house. However after that point we would continue to pay him 25% of sales for 12 months.
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- Okay - the only thing I think is unreasonable is maybe the 3 months thing - that seems awfully short.
- Even 9 months seems like a "short but reasonable" schedule.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- That seems rather long.
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- nine months? That's crazy short.
- We're asking someone to do something very difficult - ISTR kyle taking at least 6+ months to do his original port.
- I also believe kyle was extremely above-par, skillwise.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- then again, I've done 0 app development, so i cannot appropriately judge
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- Basically I think the 3 months thing is a gambler's fallacy of having someone ridiculously good sit down to do the job - it's a projection of an extreme "best case scenario" where someone with extremely above-average skills for their field comes in, and does something where everything goes as planned and there aren't any major technical surprises or setbacks
- If we get either or both of 1] a porter with much more average, normal skill levels 2] any sort of technical setback/difficulty, I expect the timeline to double or triple.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- How about 6 months, initially.
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- 6 months still seems dangerously short to me ... in part because I'd be very surprised if this person can justify full-time effort on this, rather than just "side gig" time.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- also true
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- we are talking about someone porting the game to the iPhone. Not writing a new game. There should be no memory management/optimization work to do since an iPhone is powerful enough to run the game straight these days. I think 3 months is a reasonable time frame to either (1) have a release; or (2) at least show strong enough progress that we have confidence.
- I don't want to get into the situation of asking someone to do it, agreeing on 6 months, then after 6 months "yeah I got nothing"
- All told if someone was really committed to doing this and was skilled (plenty of iPhone and C++ experience) and went on it hard and full time they could probably get it done in 3 weeks or less.
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- I'm sorry, I just don't believe that - I think your judgement of their prospective skills is colored by how insanely skilled you are, yourself.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- I wonder if perhaps dave is assuming everyone is as efficient and skilled as he is.
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- I'm very certain he is. I know he knows he's very good - I think he doesn't realize he's "burying the needle on the odometer" good.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- if 3 months is considered a checkpoint rather than a hard deadline, that does change things, however.
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- In dota terms, there's a heck of a difference between ~5k mmr and 8k mmr - and that's what we're looking at here.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- because he's right, we don't want to set a long deadline and then find nothing done (though optimally the porter would keep in contact with the project management ie myself).
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- @Vultraz yeah - I think it would be absolutely required that we'd be watching the porter and they'd be putting the code in a repo we can access - we're hiring someone to write code for us; we've got every right to look at it.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- so, if we say by 3 months at least something substantial has to be done, that's more reasonable
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- I.e, we don't need to look over their shoulder and ask for status updates on an irritatingly regular basis, but we can at least glance at the repo and notice if they're doing any work or not.(edited)
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- I would say this port should live in a seperate repo in our github org.
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- The other major thing is "There should be no memory management/optimization work to do since an iPhone is powerful enough to run the game straight these days" -- I'm rather concerned this won't be true
- If you run out of memory on an iOS app it just "crashes" (it force-quits, but that's indistinguishable to the user.)(edited)
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- ^ to that, dave also underestimates just how mediocre wesnoth's performance is.
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- It took Kyle 3 months to get Wesnoth working on the iPhone
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- we have 0 hw acceleration.
- implemented
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- by that I mean 3 months from time of agreement to him getting a beta out
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- and even on desktop the performance can be horrendous.
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- and most of that time was him optimizing it from taking 5 minutes-to-startup to getting it running at an acceptable speed
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- Keep in mind that we were unable to release frogatto 1.3 on the app store because we couldn't solve our memory management problems.
- I mean...
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- these days that shouldn't be an issue.
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- This was on a device with 1gb of ram!
- Seriously!
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- I say let's make 3 months a major checkpoint, and then see where we can go from there.
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- so I'm not saying it might not take longer. But Kyle could do it in 3 months. Kyle was a really good coder, to be fair.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- Arguing over the technical aspects are useless since only the person attempting to do it can evaluate those.(edited)
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- I'm not saying we should cut someone loose after 3 months. But I am saying they should show progress after 3 months. If they sit on it for 3 months and no progress that's a big red flag
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- I will also say for the record that ElGallo seemed quite competant to me and he said himself our move to SDL2 would simplify things greately.
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- right, between SDL2, additional speed of the iPhone, it's a TON easier these das.
- *days
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- Yes - Kyle certainly was. That's all I'm saying - that this smacks of a "gambler's fallacy" = where we're expecting to have someone with above average skills for a porter and for them to have favorable 'winds at their back'.
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- like if someone has it running after 3 months but wants to do some 'fix ups before release' that's fine.
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- Yeah - I think that's reasonable.
- I think we could expect someone to get it running within 3 months.
- I don't think anyone outside of someone extremely exceptional could get it running "okay" after 3 months - I think it's going to constantly have out-of-memory problems (if I'm placing bets, I think that'll be the biggest mess to clean up).
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- But if we can get someone who can get the game launching and able to play a ways into a level before it OOM-asserts in 3 months, I think I'd find that quite satisfactory.
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- The Lua stuff might add some memory problems, other than that I think it'll be fine.
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- Well, do we even have a way in wesnoth to recover memory?
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- There's a problem in desktop wesnoth right now where memory is never freed after ending a level or something(edited)
- it's not a leak, it just nevr gets freed
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- Like, doesn't it just keep guzzling more memory ad nauseum?
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- over long session, it starts to eat up more and more resources
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- @Vultraz: that's a leak.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- oh?
- well i've seen people say it's not a leak :neutral_face:
- so maybe I'm describing it wrong
- but either way, there are problems
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- okay.
- Is that in the stable release? Because possibly he should go off the stable release.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- I think it's in any release.
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- @Vultraz in any case that sounds bad. :frowning:
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- I also think he should work with 1.13, the dev release, since that's the one with sdl 2 :stuck_out_tongue:
- 1.12 is from 2014 and 1.13 has an exponentioal number of improvements, both in performance and the internal workings
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- @Jetrel and I'm not sure what you mean by your question. As in, the answer to whether something "gives back memory" is pretty technical and we can discuss it but probably not here.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- including but not limited to sdl2 support and the use of modern c++
- so working with 1.12 would be useless, especially with 1.14 on the horizon potentially as soon as early next year.
- (1.14 will be the next stable series and the one we ship on Steam)
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- So on another note, I must admit I found the Wesnoth forum response to the Wesnoth2 concept pretty demoralizing. However, maybe it would be better for us to consider focusing on just making a straight port of Wesnoth onto Anura? If we could fix a lot of problems Wesnoth has by doing that that would be really nice.
- the biggest barrier would be when WML+Lua gets into a war with FSON+FFL. But still.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- The notion has been met by significant resistance.
- Mostly because it means throwing out everyone's work from the past 13 years.
- And would instantly invalidate every single UMC work.
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- Well, ideally we'd provide a path to convert UMC's over.
- but yes I know there would be a lot of resistance.
- We would avoid throwing out work where possible.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- iceiceice has been working on such a potential conversion tool https://github.com/cbeck88/libwml
- GitHub
- cbeck88/libwml
- libwml - A C++ library which parses wml files
- I would be the first to admit that a jump to anura would advance wesnoth's tech a decade.
- Something that confuses me about this iOS port thing, btw, is the fact that since desktop wesnoth uses 0 hw acceleration, just software rendering, will hw support need to be added for the port?
- I know iOS has a game graphics API to work with (Metal), but I don't really understand how one is supposed to take the resource-hungry, non-optimized desktop wesnoth and make it a fast, quick, mobile app :/(edited)
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- Vultraz: mostly because all it does is pretty simple drawing so an iPhone can handle it easily in-software. Though it could also be converted to use ogl
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- yeah, see, in areas of 'simple drawing', even desktop performs fine
- but in cases like the new animated Water terrain in 1.13
- it performs abysmally
- ogl would be amazing to have
- if such a thing were implemented for the iOS port, could that work somehow be applied to desktop wesnoth too
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- yes, possibly
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- well, then the question becomes whether it would be less work for all parties to do a stright port to Anura.
- though, at least, i think that would not be worth it for 1.14. It'd likely take too long and push back our projected Steam release.
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- Yeah, I think the performance on the iPhone will be "okay" - in SW rendering, without much work - I think there will be some stuttering and some "advanced features" not working so well, but I think that that really won't be a pain point.
- It's the memory stuff that I think is going to is going to be a land mine - something people don't see coming which causes a huge amount of pain.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- yeah...
- and that needs to be fixed on desktop, too
- i remember playing Fallout Shelter on my old iPad mini gen 1 where it didn't have enough memory and it constantly crashed. It was extremely annoying. If that happens with our port people will be pissed :/
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- Yeah.
- I mean that was the problem with frogatto 1.3
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- did you fix it?
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- It ran just fine, but by crashing every 5 minutes or so it was just disgustingly unplayable - it was a huge embarrassment.(edited)
- No - I don't have the skills to do C++/OGL memory management.
- I'm the closest thing we've got to a "man for all occasions", but that's just .... that's just too much.
- Certainly so 3-ish years ago.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- I'm getting a feeling ElGallo will be doing at least as much backend work as actual porting :frowning:
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- Hence my pessimism about it taking a while!
- I think it's solvable - I just think it's a bit messy.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- You don't know how messy certain bits of the wesnoth source are :neutral_face:
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- Jetrel: the good news (for frogatto/anura) is I am planning on making a performance tool for anura memory analysis similar to the timing tool we have
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- @Denivarius that'll be water in the desert. :slight_smile: This particular bloom of introspection tools we're growing is something that's really going to give Anura an edge, long-term.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- :frowning:
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- I really think these are an asset that'll be unmatched in many other 'game-making-kits'.
- Also - for the record, I really support doing a port to Anura of the original wesnoth; I think UMC support is the sort of bridge that can be crossed after the core is ported.
- I think any mobile port should be completely agnostic to that and not pretend like it's a thing until well after it's done.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- true
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- something Kyle did for the original Wesnoth port was made the port with just basic content
- and then would port UMC and release it like a 'big update' with promotion around the theme of the new UMC
- and that was really really successful
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- Given the likelyhood that ElGallo might have to do a lot of complicated backend work, I think we might want to consider paying him an additional one-time bonus, dependant on a review of work done at time of the port's completion.
- as for the umc thing, that'a an idea.
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- @Vultraz I don't think we need a bonus - I just think we need to be reasonable and flexible about the timeline as long as he's putting in a good faith effort.
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- yes, I agree.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- It shouldn't be needed, no, but in my opinion the option should be kept in mind should the work prove to be a lot more complicated than we expected.
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- Also - I agree that kyle's trick with the UMC was a very clever idea and would be good to repeat.
- iceiceice - 10/05/2016
- vultraz: re taxes, yah it's not necessary to do your own taxes. i usually do my own taxes... in the last two years I didn't because I was busy. But in years prior to that I did. If it's $2000 / year it represents a pretty large expense.
- usually personal taxes only take a few hours of your time / someone elses time, for my personal taxes it was like $500 to do them. I wonder, if it takes the accountants a long time to do wesnoth inc. taxes, or they just charge a high hourly rate?
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- @iceiceice: the thing is that business taxes are not the same as personal taxes. I do my own personal taxes too. It's possible that we could do all of Wesnoth, Inc's taxes "in house" but I don't think it will be as simple as personal taxes.
- iceiceice - 10/05/2016
- yeah i don't know anything about doing taxes for a small business
- so also, i want to bring up an item from the forum pm:
- Dave writes: "Procedurally, I think we should decide how we as a board want to communicate, and what our expectations are regarding the distribution of our communications (i.e. if they are made public)."
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- what about it?
- iceiceice - 10/05/2016
- so i guess maybe you already discussed it and i didn't see it?
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- we haven't
- iceiceice - 10/05/2016
- the earliest log I have is Vultraz - Last Monday at 3:53 AM
- ah, now we just need iceiceice
- ok
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- yes we haven't discussed anything before you arrived.
- iceiceice - 10/05/2016
- so i think that we should try to make some page about the board, what it is we do etc.
- whether or not our logs are public
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- yes I agree, I think that is important.
- we could go the 'all transparent' model and make this chat room open for anyone to observe.
- but I don't know if we want to do that.
- iceiceice - 10/05/2016
- yeah
- i guess i dont see a particular reason to do that
- if anything it would be helpful because can tell people "if you want to understand in detail what we do, read our minutes"
- but it would likely be hard for anyone to make sense out of a giant log like this
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- we don't have minutes :stuck_out_tongue:
- iceiceice - 10/05/2016
- yah i mean
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- well the main reason would be to promote a feeling of transparency. The main downside would be if anyone watches and gets offended / upset / spreads rumors based on some minor thing that was said.
- iceiceice - 10/05/2016
- this log is the closest thing to minutes i guess
- yeah
- Jetrel - 10/05/2016
- Fairly cogent statement from Dave, there.(edited)
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- @iceiceice: alright did you want to create a page which contains an overview of decisions made etc?
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- making these logs public also means we can't put any sensitive material like passwords, etc, here
- iceiceice - 10/05/2016
- yeah i could take a stab at this
- yeah i guess like
- there were other quesitons, like, are there financial matters or other matters that we want not to be public
- if there are things like that that we want to be secret then i guess we can't discuss them here which might be inconvenient
- it might be workable though
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- we could make two channels(edited)
- and reserve one for non-public sensitive material
- and then publish logs for this one
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- @Vultraz: do you want to take care of reaching out to ElGalloGringo and asking for him to work on the iPhone port?
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- I could do that, yeah. Would like to be sure we've worked out all the details first, though.
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- Sure. The biggest things in my mind are :
- (1) is there a way not to screw over existing iPhone users?
- (2) can we get control of the existing port? I sent Jetrel the password. Then we can hopefully have power to take it down when the time is right.
- (3) I want to be clear that if we go ahead with this as a board we are agreeing/continuing the existing assertion that we feel all Wesnoth developers agree to shipping Wesnoth on the iPhone even though the Apple agreement (possibly|probably|definitely) is not GPL compatible.
- Vultraz - 10/05/2016
- 1. dunno. wouldn't we have to ask apple? 2. also dunno. 3. there've been no objections this far. Though this does touch on a broader issue we should discuss that you mentioned in your PM - that being, licensing and compatility with various app store distribitions
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- I am fairly sure that if there is no automated way to do it the answer is "no".
- iceiceice - 10/05/2016
- hi, i tried writing like a draft statement about the board, feedback would be most appreciated:
- Wesnoth is a large project with many different aspects which people work on.
- At any given time there may be people working on the pixel art, the portraits, the
- music, the code that supports the graphics, ui, sound, networking, game logic, WML api,
- and the WML that makes up the campaigns themselves, as well as the terrain graphics and unit animations.
- Not to mention maintaining the actual server infrastructure, including the campaign server, multiplayer server,
- web server, forums, and wiki...
- Besides all this, the Wesnoth project also has some costs associated to it
- - A web host for the various servers
- - Commissioned art (historically this has sometimes been pixel art, sometimes portraits)
- Wesnoth has been financially supported in a variety of ways over the years. Wesnoth was a Google Summer of Code project in
- several years, which means that students were paid to work on coding projects for wesnoth full-time for a summer.
- Wesnoth has solicited donations at various points in time.
- Since 2008, Wesnoth was, after much discussion among the developers, distributed for sale on iphone.
- This generated considerably more revenue than previously existed. Wesnoth Inc. is a non-profit corporation created
- to receive and handle this income, and decide how to spend it.
- In 2016 it was decided to reform the Board of Directors of Wesnoth Inc., by holding an election among the developers.
- The board is a four-person group which is essentially empowered by the developers to distribute the game on various
- distribution channels on their behalf, especially those that involve exchange of money or special (non-free) licensing.
- The board makes decisions about how to spend that money for the benefit of the project at large. It is hoped that
- the new board will have clear goals and will be transparent in its operation, will have good
- communications with the developers, and will be effective as a vehicle for promoting the project.
- It is important to emphasize that the board of directors are not the leaders'' of the developers, nor do they
- own the assets associated to wesnoth. Wesnoth Inc. does own several kinds of intellectual property associated
- to wesnoth, particularly, the domain name, the trademark. The most important component is that, on channels like the Apple store
- or Steam where only theoriginal developers'' are permitted to distribute a game, Wesnoth Inc. is the entity which
- properly distributes Wesnoth, as opposed to individual developers or other people.
- (got some markup snafu in there, oh well)
- be back later
- Denivarius - 10/05/2016
- I think it looks reasonable. We probably need to add some more details.
- October 10, 2016
- Denivarius - 10/10/2016
- So, we have to get stuff together to move forward with things -- vultraz have you contacted ElGalloGringo about the iPhone port?
- October 14, 2016
- Vultraz - 10/14/2016
- @Denivarius sorry, have not yet. been a little busy getting wesnoth ready for another dev release. I'll PM him tonight. Just to confirm the details, we've agreed to pay him 25% and expect some sort of meaningful progress by 3 months? Anything else I need to mention?
- Denivarius - 10/14/2016
- that sounds good!
- October 15, 2016
- Vultraz - 10/15/2016
- pmed him, sent you three a bcc of it.
- October 20, 2016
- iceiceice - 10/20/2016
- hi,
- i started trying to actually make a webpage as discussed earlier
- i put the stub of the project in a github repository, currently marked private on my account,
- i invited you all to collaborate on it, so only we will be able to see it for now
- the repo is here: https://github.com/cbeck88/wesnoth-board-page
- i didn't really do anything more in regards to actual content yet, but at least there are some stubs, and we can go from there
- Denivarius - 10/20/2016
- alright, cool. Yeah I got your invite
- October 22, 2016
- Vultraz - 10/22/2016
- I haven't heard back from ElGallo. Has anyone else?
- Denivarius - 10/22/2016
- Nope. Do you have any other channels to reach out to him on?
- Vultraz - 10/22/2016
- Nope
- October 23, 2016
- Vultraz - 10/23/2016
- pydsigner has been working on drafting a proposal for allowing CC licenses for mainline wesnoth art/music as well as allowing it on the addon server: https://gist.github.com/pydsigner/12dcea9426ba242f465881d9e9c2eb0c(edited)
- Gist
- Wesnoth Asset Licensing Proposal Draft
- Wesnoth Asset Licensing Proposal Draft
- as it stands I think the proposal is perfectly fine
- the general ideas were based off of previous dicussions such as this: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/647
- GitHub
- Allow explicit use of any CC license for UMC assets by pydsigner...
- The mandatory use of the GPL for all things Wesnoth has long been a sticky point for contributors, especially those not contributing to core (i.e. creating UMC add-ons). Here are a few examples of...
- I know we intended to look at this at some point, so I'm posting it here so we can approve it before it gets posted.
- Again, I think it's fine, but the rest of you might have some suggestions on what should change.
- I'll pass any on to pydsigner (or we could invite him to #general)
- October 24, 2016
- Denivarius - 10/24/2016
- @Vultraz FWIW I feel these are excellent proposals
- October 26, 2016
- Vultraz - 10/26/2016
- Another matter i'd like to resolve before 1.14 is migrating the bug tracker off GNA.
- I'd like to use github, but the main complaint is it doesn't have private bugs
- github recommends creating a private repo for managing private bugs in leiu of visibility settings
- However, AFAICT, private repos require a paid subscription.
- Any thoughts on whether this is worth it
- Other suggestions have been redmine or jira but i have neither the time nor the experience to thoroughly test any of those.
- and i think a unified project on GH would be best anyway
- thoughts?
- (especially from @iceiceice who's supposed to be the treasurer)
- On a totally unrelated note, I have not heard back from ElGallo still.
- Vultraz - 10/26/2016
- Also for the record, I have recieved PMs from a few other interested parties since ElGallo first wrote. I've not turned them away fully, so we might have to contact one of them if ElGallo doesn't come through.
- Denivarius - 10/26/2016
- @Vultraz do any of those solutions require money or special licensing? If not I don't think it's a board issue
- @Vultraz and okay we might have to consider whichever one of them we feel is best qualified.
- Vultraz - 10/26/2016
- I just said that keeping private bugs on a private github repo would require a paid subscription as far as i can tell
- feel free to correct that if it's incorrect
- Denivarius - 10/26/2016
- oh yeah sorry. Why do we want a private repo?
- I mean why do we want private bugs?
- Vultraz - 10/26/2016
- certain bugs such as security issues are not suitable for public view
- they are rather rare, which is why im not sure it's worth the money
- Denivarius - 10/26/2016
- I would think it's pretty uncommon to have a bug like that? And it should be fixed quickly ... it seems the value of a private bug tracker for such issues is pretty minimal?
- Vultraz - 10/26/2016
- true
- Vultraz - 10/26/2016
- if we didn't use gh then we might have to consider another tracker (which would not be the board's responsibility)
- Jetrel - 10/26/2016
- Honestly, I vote for a public tracker - I don't think we have any need for a private tracker, even for security issues (this would only differ if we were, say, the linux kernel, or some fortune-500 business). I suspect Dave would corroborate that.
- Denivarius - 10/27/2016
- @iceiceice: I think that's a good point about CC-BY-SA
- and allowing use of any art there
- Jetrel - 10/27/2016
- I agree - that's a good point.(edited)
- October 28, 2016
- Vultraz - 10/28/2016
- It is
- But there is somehing to be said for restricting use as well.
- say you commisssion some art for a project and don
- 't want it spread everywhere
- I will grant, however, that this is a corner case
- And in the vein of yesterday's discussion, perhaps not worth considering
- Just bringing it up, however.(edited)
- ShikadiLord - 10/28/2016
- The idea from the very beginning has been that non-free content should be clearly labeled as such so that people considering taking it from an add-on/post can clearly see that this is not a possibility or that there are caveats. Sure, it is a slight paradigm shift from the previous free-for-all anarchy we had, but I don't see why it has to be a negative thing. And re: policing, right now, I could publish an add-on full of Frogatto art or what have you and no-one would notice unless they were familiarized with the work in question; so in that regard, it seems to me like the content policying system will be only as broken as before.
- (Also, in case anyone is wondering how I got here, blame @Vultraz.)
- Vultraz - 10/28/2016
- I invited him here to offer insight on these issues we are discussing.
- iceiceice - 10/28/2016
- shadowm: hi
- so i guess i just posted briefly on forums,
- if the policy is "any CC license" does that actually allow you to impose the kinds of caveats you were talking about before?
- or is that not the goal anymore?
- i guess i could dig up the irclogs, its possible i dont recall correctly what was said
- ShikadiLord - 10/28/2016
- I didn't understand the question. Certain CC licenses (the NC and ND variants) have restrictions in what you can do with the licensed material.
- iceiceice - 10/28/2016
- so the example i remembered from before was, what if you want to commission an artist to make art specific to your add-on
- that will be like a memorable or unique part, and you don't want it to then appear in "Colloseum XXXL" and get overused or whatnot
- if you allowed "any license" then you could make a license like that I think
- if you only release it under "CC-BY-NC-ND" then i guess that wouldn't achieve the result?
- ShikadiLord - 10/28/2016
- There are three points to consider: 1) I'm not particularly interested in making add-ons for Wesnoth anymore (my participation in the authoring of pydsigner's proposal is limited to some quick proofreading and raising one or two concerns about ambiguous language). 2) Allowing literally any license would open up the possibility of people using nonsense homebrew licenses or licenses that are outright incompatible with the proper operation of the add-ons server ("this add-on can only be distributed through the add-ons server it may not be posted on any website", to give a very crude example). 3) Even allowing more than one CC license on the server is already proving somewhat difficult to get through some people's moral filters; I don't think it'd be productive to overcomplicate the first step.
- Maybe someone at a later time will want to extent the list of allowed licenses or something, but that's not going to come from me.
- iceiceice - 10/28/2016
- so wait, you are advocating CC-BY-SA on add-on server, or the "any CC license" version?
- (sorry if I misunderstood)
- ShikadiLord - 10/28/2016
- The latter.
- iceiceice - 10/28/2016
- I guess i think that you are right actually, the policing situation is not that different
- we already could be in a position where someone says "X is a derivative of Y so should not have been uploaded" or something
- and the uploader disagrees that it is derivative
- i mean i think that would be the most annoying kinds of policing issues?
- do you think the users will actually pay attention to the licenses if people post non-share-alike stuff?
- i think there's a decent chance they'll just assume that if it's in a wesnoth add-on then no one will really stop them
- ShikadiLord - 10/28/2016
- Hence the proposed license file(s) in the add-on detailing this stuff. It's really just a matter of educating existing users of the add-ons server. (Perhaps with an optional UI indication/category for add-ons with content that is considered to be non-free.)
- iceiceice - 10/28/2016
- yah that would be a pretty good solution
- ShikadiLord - 10/28/2016
- I'd doubt this would be a problem for new users anymore than the "no non-GPLable material" policy is.
- Vultraz - 10/28/2016
- @iceiceice did you even read the proposal :neutral_face:
- iceiceice - 10/28/2016
- i think so
- Vultraz: I think UI indicator in the add-on list would be quite helpful, above and beyond the text files
- i'm probably on board with the proposal in that case
- i mean i guess that's not really that different from how ubuntu works
- ShikadiLord - 10/28/2016
- For other people's reference, Debian and Ubuntu have different "sections" in each distribution's archive. For example, Debian has main (Debian Free Software Guidelines-compliant packages), contrib (DFSG-compliant packages that depend on non-free packages, for example, games with DFSG-compliant engines and non-free data such as Frogatto), and non-free (self-explanatory). I don't know the Ubuntu hierarchy but I believe it's similar with different names.
- iceiceice - 10/28/2016
- i actually didn't know debian did that also
- ShikadiLord - 10/28/2016
- System admins have the ability to exclude contrib and/or non-free from repository updates so that they will never accidentally install non-DFSG compliant software.
- iceiceice - 10/28/2016
- i have to go to catch a train, i can check back here in a few hours
- October 29, 2016
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- just leaving this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/wesnoth/comments/59xubk/battle_of_wesnoth_ripoff_came_across_this_in/
- reddit
- Battle of Wesnoth ripoff? Came across this in Steam's recent rel...
- 2 points and 9 comments so far on reddit
- nothing serious, and it's not direct
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- Vultraz: I'm not very happy about your most recent forum post about this licensing stuff
- I've heard from a few people that you've been taking an increasingly imperious stance on a few wesnoth-dev issues
- in this case, at least as i understand, making decisions about licensing issues, what we consider to be important to the project, etc. is one of the essential purposes of the board
- now you and I are really very close in position on this i think
- i think pydsigner is rather off-base on a few things
- but if you can't agree that my opinion matters as to whether or not this change will happen,
- then i'm going to resign from the board
- > West left because people kept demanding he release the "sources" of his works. When he took effort to release something along those lines, there was no response. To be fair, most of the people complaining had left by that point, but it still hit him the wrong way. The cases that led to the departure of other music contributors can still be linked to the GPL. The fact is that we're only switching away from it now, and whether CC SA or CC ND is what SACEM requires, neither is the GPL!
- This discussion is getting frankly ridiculous. This is objectively a good change, and saying it should be broken up or delayed because a million people haven't flocked demanding it is ridiculous! Again, I point to Skyrim modding. More modder resources are always welcome! There's no way allowing more resources be used in Wesnoth UMC will in any way not allow the creation or more unique content! The status quo is a restrictive environment where everyone draws from the same limited pool! I see it in no way a bad thing to increase that pool at the cost of the use of certain resources being slightly restricted!
- Continuing to argue semantics and specifics of every word everyone has every said regarding this issue is pointless and not advancing this discussion any further. Can we please stop arguing and instead focus on getting this change implemented in the most expedient and efficient manner?
- I think I've been extremely reasonable throughout this discussion.
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- Ok, here's the thing: As it has been pointed out before, the management of the project and the company are two different things. I simply have hands in both pies, so to speak. This is an issue the project deems necessary. Usually, the Board would not be involved, except, since it involves licensing and has implications regarding distribution, the Board is involved. The arguments you are making do not appear to be from the POV of a Board member. None of your complains have any bearing on our ability to continue distributing wesnoth on our current platforms, nor on that to enter new distribution channels. Those are the things in which the Board could take issue. So far, I see no problem on that front. @Denivarius and @Jetrel seem to agree with the proposal and I would hesitate a guess they they neither really care about SA-only vs otherwise. Your critiques of the proposal are (or at least, should be considered) from the POV of a project contributor, not a Board member, and I'm sorry, but in the matter of project management I outrank you. I will admit I was rather harsh in my last post; I apologize. However, I feel you're continuing to argue issues that have little if any import! For example, you keep saying you don't see much, if any, support from the community for this change. I will say that is irrelevant. As I pointed out, it's an objectively good change. It is not being done based on personal philisophies, and is being done for the good of the project. Also, arguing the semantics of the situations that led to the departure of our Lords of Music is also something I consider tangential. I happen to agree with the points pydsigner is making, and again, I apologize for my harshness, but I simply think your points have been addressed already, and I do not really appreciate (from the POV of project admin, not Board member) the way you keep brining them up in different form.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- Vultraz, it's not an "objectively good change" if the only people who think it is objectively good are you, shadowm, and pydsigner, and everyone else has pointed critiques
- the only thing that is ridiculous is for you to keep saying that
- and to comically exaggerate what my points were
- "a million people clamoring for it" or whatever
- what should be obvious is that the reason this was never posted on ML
- or on forums
- until now
- until you are "announcing that it is happening"
- is that there just isn't really any support for this, and you just want to force it through
- now look, i dont think its a terrible proposal
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- Yes, this is an announcement of intent, not a call for comments.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- and i'm not really going to oppose it
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- That was clear from the beginning.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- okay, i'm going to resign from the board then, effective immediately
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- Why?
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- i think this shows that the board is a farce
- and you are going to do whatever you want
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- The board does not manage the project!
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- there's no reason for me to be on it
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- It manages the company
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- it's supposed to, to some extent, reflect the will of the developers
- and the character of the project
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- As I just said, the only extend to which the company need get involved here is to determine whether the proposed change affects our ability to continue to distribute the game.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- i think you and i have very different ideas what the board is and what it is supposed to be
- i'm not sure how that happened
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- Well, partly because as shadowm pointed out, @Denivarius didn't really rather outline our full responsibilities until we were elected.(edited)
- Jetrel - 10/29/2016
- Guys, why don't we relax and figure this out.
- Denivarius - 10/29/2016
- Sorry what are the wesnoth forum posts we are discussing
- ?
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- i think it might be a good idea if we sit down, decide what the board is,
- then hold a new election
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- @Denivarius this whole thread, re licensing changes: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=44771
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- vultraz: i'm going to try to explain why i think this is relevant to the scope of the board, its going to take me a few minutes to find some links and quotes
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- Alright, please do.
- I will admit that some of my opinion has been influenced by the words of shadowm, who have pointed out that the board can (or perhaps, should not?) overrule the project. Perhaps this is so, but you are right that our scope of responsibilitys as this Board in regards to that of the project were never fully or clearly defined.
- We were given a bunch of things to work on, yes, and licensing was included in it.
- But now we're facing a situation whether we cannot decide how much the Board itseld gets to influence the details of that.
- itself*
- now that the project has drafted a proposal.
- (stemming, I may add, from discussions held long before the formation of the Board)(edited)
- Jetrel - 10/29/2016
- I think one key thing - both direct at Vultraz and iceiceice here, is that any management organization figuring out exactly how it's supposed to operate is a completely normal, and unavoidable step in creating one. No matter how careful you are to try to prep and write some excellent charter, going into one - even if you do it multiple times, the only way for any board of directors to figure out its operating parameters is for the people involved to work together for a while, and run into things where they disagree.
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- Certainly.
- Jetrel - 10/29/2016
- Notably - rebooting doesn't solve the problem; it just gives you a different form of the same problem with new people who will disagree in different ways.
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- I agree.
- Jetrel - 10/29/2016
- I would also point out that: Disagreement isn't a sign of dysfunction - it's actually a sign the group is doing what it's supposed to. We're supposed to uncover operational issues like this that key drivers of the community would get frustrated with different people having different goals on - get that disagreement in the open, and figure out a way to amicably resolve it.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- Vultraz: look, you aren't "the project"
- you basically have the support of shadowm, a quasi-retired developer
- and pydsigner, who isn't even a developer
- everyone else was critical of the proposal
- then it shows up 6 months later and you announce "it's been decided
- my job is in part to represent those developers who voted for me, in regards to these licensing issues
- you should make some effort to solicit broad support
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- shadowm basically (unofficially, I suppose) handed the reins of the project to me, and i have been referred to as project admin by a few people. officially I hold the positions of Community Manager, Release Manager, and Developer. So yes, I do consider myself project admin/leader.
- However, let's set that aside.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- if you aren't interested in doing that, this isn't really about "dysfunctional" organizations
- it's really just, i'd rather not spend my time doing this with you
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- You say I should solicit board support
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- i think you should lead the community
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- however I counter tht @Denivarius and @Jetrel are basically taking a 'whatever' stance.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- @Denivarius said he thought your proposal was great, then he also wrote
- > Denivarius - Yesterday at 12:29 AM
- @iceiceice: I think that's a good point about CC-BY-SA
- and allowing use of any art there
- vultraz: i don't consider you the "project leader"
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- ok, I'll grant you that.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- "lead developer"
- or anything else like that
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- what do you consider me?
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- you have some sort of leadership position
- but its fairly nebulous
- i dont think shadowm was the "lead developer" either
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- sure, I won't contest that
- dave was the last "lead developer"
- officially, I think
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- if you really think you are in a position to unilaterally start changing the licensing policies in the project, i think a lot of developers would be pretty surprised to hear that
- i think you have a lot of clout to push things through, but if you really think you can just unilaterally do something of this magnitude, i basically view that as a major power grab
- maybe the whole project has changed in the last few months or something
- idk
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- Here's the thing, though, and I was ranting about this the other day: I really honestly feel like I'm the only one who cares about getting the project to a sucessful steam 1.14 release. everyone else is rather meadering along, and I'm starting to feel overwhelmed. I had personally hoped that the formation of the Board would lead to some sort of unified leadership
- but that hasn't happened!
- first, dave took the lead on the ios proposal. great. but now, when another issue comes up, he and jet are essentially silent.
- except for what I personally feel amounts to waving it through
- You have been critical of it.
- And I'm sorry if perhaps I'm taking my frustrations of feeling that I'm really the only one who's trying to get stuff done on a large scal out on you.
- But I still maintain that some of your critiques are taken too far.
- either way, this is still just you and me arguing
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- there are a lot of things that you can change without people getting worked up
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- where are dave and jet, now
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- but like, licensing, and share-alike vs. not, that's someting that speaks to like, the character of the organization
- that's the kind of thing that supposedly we were supposed to deliberate in a charter
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- which we never made!
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- and ultimately say "we believe in people make free code and art under share-alike licenses"
- or, something elese
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- we couldn't evbn decide how or where or even if to make these logs public
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- like "we want to support people making games" etc.
- well, i had to defend my phd thesis on wednesday
- i was super busy
- sorry
- i tried to make some movement on website, and i was thinking about this a little bit
- but yah i was not too active
- in last month or so
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- this Board represents a company that constitues more than just wesnoth
- it also has ties to frogatto and aa and idk even what else
- dave and jet have some nebulous goals related to frogatto
- about supporting game development or what not
- and maybe there should be a discussion about how that affects the company and all the games under its purview
- but so far, we have yet to have such a discussion.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- yah i think you are sort of preempting this discussion
- with this add-on decision
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- and so, the licensing question falls firmly within the wesnoth project's borders
- Denivarius - 10/29/2016
- yeah let's not focus on that for now, let's focus on Wesnoth and how the board should work.
- so this is the way I envisaged it should work:
- the most clear cut thing the board does is decide how our money should be spent.
- so my intent with forming the board was that I outlined what expenditures we have right now
- it's my intent that we won't change our spending patterns unless the board votes on it and we have a majority decision
- I think that is the most important role, and I think that is a pretty clear-cut line.
- with regards to licensing, I think we on the board should have some input but it would really behoove us to try and get a consensus. I kind of think it's not really so much a board decision though us on the board having a consensus agreement as a starting point would probably be a good idea.
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- It would help if you and @Jetrel were to read the proposal fully, as well as @iceiceice's counter-arguments, and then we can have a discussion.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- Vultraz: I don't think it matters whether you think its a board issue or a project wesnoth issue,
- either way i don't see how you consider it "decided"
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- really, honestly, I don't know.
- the point of the post was certainly one of declaration of intent
- and i guess i kinda got swpt up in the we're-doing-it-this-way way of thinking
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- i'm going to take a shower, i will be back in a bit
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- and since I agree with the proposal, I suppose i just started pushing it as given.
- wesnoth has a long history of stuff being delayed because no one was able to put their foot down and say "we're doing this"
- @Jetrel has said this himself, it's not just me who thinks so
- Denivarius - 10/29/2016
- Yes I agree with that entirely. It has a long history of that and it's a big, big problem.
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- but i suppose we should at lease internally try to agree on a course of action
- least
- Denivarius - 10/29/2016
- So sorry I tried reading the thread on the forums but it's long and confusing. What is the disagreement? @Vultraz thinks that it should allow any CC license and @iceiceice thinks only one specific CC license?
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- ice advocates CC SA only
- I agree with the original proposal that SA should be for mainline content but the addons server could use any CC license
- (the original proposal, for the record, was drafted by pydsigner and not myself. I simply posted it to lend it gravity)
- Denivarius - 10/29/2016
- so firstly these proposals are very similar to be arguing over
- I kind of tend toward iceiceice's approach personally
- @Vultraz don't you think that allowing any license on the add-on server will lead to a lot of confusion and such? Make it difficult to take and use anything from the add-on server?
- I think that was @iceiceice's main concern and I tend to agree with it
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- the counter is I and pydsigner don't think the free-for-all attitude of content creators is worth maintaining. making people think a little more about what it is they're taking (like it is in other game's modding communities) is certainly a good thing, and allowing for ND works can allow for more unique content in UMC.
- Denivarius - 10/29/2016
- so to start with it puts on a burden of more technical work since you have to say what is what ... and clearly label it. Do you have a plan for that and developers willing to do it?
- Honestly I kind of think we should treat these as two separate things. Get to CC-SA only everywhere. Then we can talk about later allowing more different licenses on the add-on server if someone is willing to do the owrk on it
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- what do you mean? the responsibility will be up the UMC authors to specify and check the license of the assets they use.
- Denivarius - 10/29/2016
- yes but we need a format for specifying it -- like putting files with the licenses somewhere?
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- yes, all that is outlined in the original post
- Denivarius - 10/29/2016
- okay
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- certainly, we would also support an additional key in the server.pbl file (the file that authors use to specify the properties of their addon when uploading)
- Denivarius - 10/29/2016
- so it sounds like we agree on going ahead with CC-SA for mainline and moving UMC to that at least
- Vultraz - 10/29/2016
- yes
- well, not moving UMC to it - allowing its use
- it, we'renot gonna magically say eveything on the server is relicensed. we couldn't do that even if we wanted to
- relicensing would be for mainline assets and we'd have to contact each artist to ask if they'd relicense their work
- but that's something that can happen gradually
- but yes, i dont think anyone is against allowing at least SA on the addon server.
- Jetrel - 10/29/2016
- I'd like to tread lightly with this opinion, but I think it'd be nice to move to CC-SA everywhere.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- vultraz: I thoguht about it a bit, I think this is maybe a better explanation for my reaction,
- one of the things my Dad always told me is, you know, it's very important in life to pick your battles
- this CC-SA thing, I mean, if it were all up to me, that's what it would be, we wouldn't have ND or NC or whatever
- but I sort of decided to concede this one anyways
- I'm not sure exactly why people voted for me to be on this board, I wasn't really involved in the project for more than a year
- I think partly because they expect me to be an advocate for things like this
- but for a variety of reasons some of which i explained, I decided to basically give it up
- so i decided to just say, well if you make a UI indicator then I'm on board
- and i think you were already planning to do that anyways
- my impression is that, you basically decided you'd rather just pull rank
- from my perspective like,
- if you'd rather make a show of force than take yes for an answer,
- that augurs rather poorly for a little 4-person board like this,
- it's just hte kind of thing that's going to make someone like me instinctively want to GTFO
- ShikadiLord - 10/29/2016
- For the record, you were nominated for the board by people (and you accepted their nomination). These people were told that the members of the board would deal with finances and finances alone, not influencing or making decisions on the operation of the Battle for Wesnoth Project or the Wesnoth.org team.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- i don't know if its appropriate for me to quit over something like this
- but i just thought i would say that
- ShikadiLord - 10/29/2016
- The last part came off as quite a surprise to me when vultraz started to throw the board's weight around regarding the proposal.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- maybe in your mind this is more about setting a precedent
- idk
- shadowm: there was also this thread:
- https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=44553#p601601
- > I want to hold nominations and then elections for a board of three members who will be responsible for the following:
- - Collecting a revenue stream for Wesnoth, Inc.
- - Publishing reports on our finances in a transparent and open fashion
- - Assigning funds to spend on Wesnoth and other related game projects. Particularly to art commissions and server/infrastructure maintenance.
- These people should be well trusted in the community and ready to understand this is an important and difficult responsibility.
- One of the people on the board will be appointed treasurer. This person will have direct access to and responsibility for our financial accounts. This person must be a US citizen. The other board members need not be US citizens. You don't have to specify whether someone should be treasurer though, the board will decide it when elected.
- Once a board is established we can draft a charter to be adhered to going forward, including a statement on transparency, licensing policies, and so forth.
- ShikadiLord - 10/29/2016
- No.
- That is literally the thread I'm talking about.
- See the bullet list at the start.
- Nowhere it says "we get to boss the project and the site admins around".
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- it's mentioned "decide licensing policies and so forth"
- ShikadiLord - 10/29/2016
- The tone of the whole thing and the controversy surrounding it seemed to suggest it was going to be more or less the opposite, in fact. That the board would act on the project and the site admins' needs and wishes.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- draft a charter going forwards
- ShikadiLord - 10/29/2016
- Can't say that I can take that part very seriously since it again contradicts the previous statement.
- Much like the deal with whether non-devs could be nominated or not.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- i don't think it's a contradiction, i think your interpretation might just not make much sense
- no one seemed to say they thought it was a contradiction at the time
- ShikadiLord - 10/29/2016
- My interpretation is the most natural one. I'm given a list of things that people will be responsible for, it does not say "control the community leads".
- Then there's a list of things that the board may do once established, it says "licensing policies", which doesn't really say anything, and isn't a subset of what the board members were said would become responsible for.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- shadowm: I think maybe you should try reading the entire #boarddiscussion channel for today
- ShikadiLord - 10/29/2016
- But the point is you wanted to know why you were nominated, so there you have my answer. I'd have only nominated active project members if I had understood it would come to this.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- i dont think anyone else here shares your interpretation
- ShikadiLord - 10/29/2016
- Yes, I read the conversation in its entirety 30 minutes ago, thanks.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- i think we agreed that we are supposed to create a charter that outlines the goals of the organization
- ShikadiLord - 10/29/2016
- I know no-one here shares my interpretation or cares about interpretations in the first place.
- iceiceice - 10/29/2016
- look i dont really want to litigate this, that is sort of my point,
- i was trying to concede this rather than litigate this,
- i'm not sure what it means that we found ourselves here
- maybe i'm blowing this out of proportion, i'm going to think about it a bit, but still I think it was worth writing what I did.
- Jetrel - 10/29/2016
- @ShikadiLord my impression was that one of the points of electing a small group of representatives of the community to decide on key things like licensing and finances was to avoid the impossibility of concensus in a "true democracy" -- to try to fix the traditional wesnothian problem of 'lots of discussion and no action'.
- I.e. a republic rather than a democracy.
- ShikadiLord - 10/29/2016
- @Jetrel Sure, but now it feels more like "a bunch of people who haven't had active participation in the project in at least a year and an overeager project admin get to decide things alone" to me. That's the vibe I'm getting from this, anyway.
- Jetrel - 10/29/2016
- Yes, that's why we put it up to a community vote as to who was going to be on the board - to affirm that they would be okay with these people making those sorts of decisions. That was how they asked "hey, even if these people aren't actively doing heavy-lifting on the project, are you okay with them making decisions about how it's run?" And they said yes.
- Jetrel - 10/29/2016
- I mean - you're here, we want you to influence whatever decision we make. But we strictly do want to make some decision, and move forward. We're not going to be Hamlet, anymore.
- Denivarius - 10/29/2016
- so I don't think the licensing decision should be a board decision, but it is something vultraz and iceiceice (and anyone else here) certainly have rights to talk about. I think the main responsibilities of the board are (1) to decide how to spend money; (2) to decide when to put Wesnoth on 'proprietary' platforms such as Steam/app store/etc.
- October 30, 2016
- Vultraz - 10/30/2016
- @iceiceice dunno if you saw but i locked the thread for now. i figured we could take a step back and reevaluate the proposal later this week with a fresh perspective.
- October 31, 2016
- Vultraz - 10/31/2016
- Ok, I've been thinking more about the licensing issues
- I think we should divide up the discussion into three: mainline assets, forum posts, and the addons server
- let's start with mainline assets
- Regarding mainline assets: I think we all agree that mainline music and art should be relicensed under CC BY SA. Therefor, the proposal is essentially: after, say, December 1st, all new mainline music and art contributions will be licensed under CC BY SA, and any existing assets will remain under the GPL until we contact their authors to get permission for their relicensing.(edited)
- Regarding forum assets: I think it makes sense at the same date to also do as the original proposal suggests and make all new music and art posted to the forums on or after that date implicitly CC BY SA(edited)
- So that covers the first two points
- Let's put aside the addons server for now
- @here does anyone have an objection to the above?(edited)
- I want to get those points out of the way before we discuss the addons server.
- Denivarius - 10/31/2016
- @Vultraz I think that sounds good. I agree putting off the add-on server until after sounds best.
- sadly it might be difficult to contact every single author from the past.
- Vultraz - 10/31/2016
- This is true.
- Thankfully, a lot of stuff has been done by a few people. LordBob, kitty, jetrel, sleepwalker, west, etc.
- Denivarius - 10/31/2016
- yes
- November 1, 2016
- Vultraz - 11/01/2016
- @iceiceice @Jetrel do either of you have objections to the above?
- Jetrel - 11/01/2016
- Nope, I think I'm good with that.
- Vultraz - 11/01/2016
- @iceiceice ?
- iceiceice - 11/01/2016
- nope i think it's good
- Vultraz - 11/01/2016
- ok, so we all agree on that. good.
- iceiceice - 11/01/2016
- yeah, actually i can't remember anyone ever speaking against moving to CC-BY-SA
- not that that's important, but i would be really surprised if there's anyone
- Vultraz - 11/01/2016
- I know, I just wanted to ensure we got the simple stuff out of the way.
- before we discussed the addons server
- so they didn't overlap
- November 2, 2016
- Vultraz - 11/02/2016
- For the record, I still have not heard back from ElGallo, though the forums seem to indicate he did read the message at some point.
- November 4, 2016
- Vultraz - 11/04/2016
- alright, I think we might as well delve into the addons server stuff
- pydsigner pointed out 6 cc licenses:
- CC0
- CC BY
- CC BY-SA
- CC BY-ND
- CC BY-SA-NC
- CC BY-ND-NC
- CC0 assets appear in a few addons - no change.
- CC BY-SA: since this would be the mainline default, it would obviously be allowed.
- CC BY: im not really sure how this differs from BY SA, but it seem permissable enough to allow use, IMO
- CC BY-ND: this seems to be the major point of contention. I'll get into the arguments regarding it in a moment.
- And finally, SA and ND + NC: given that we don't think we'll be allowing people to seel their UMC (see also: the bethedsa paid mods fiasco), so perhaps NC isn't needed. However, it might prevent assets being taken and used in commercial products, so that could be useful.(edited)
- now, back to ND...
- the main objections I've seen are
- * many licenses is confusing
- * it would reduce the resource pool available for stuff like frakenspriting
- * it would be harder to police the addon server
- The first is somewhat valid. Even I have trouble telling them apart sometimes. However, I intended to add a nice popup explaining the licensing of specific UMC in the new addons manager. And an explanation can certainly be condensed simply. SA vs ND, and their NC derivitives.
- (again, I still have yet to figure out plain BY)
- Now, the second. I consider this a non-issue. The pool of art is large enough already, and it's certainly valid that people might not want their art in other UMC, for cerious reasons. Either way, we should not lend much weight to this point in the end.
- The third point is the most troubling.
- While @ShikadiLord has pointed out that we basically don't do any policing now, and while I do believe UMC authors can and will adjust to the change away from the FFA attitude towards content (which most modding communities do not share, for the record), there could be some potential hiccups.
- Obviously we would still rely on reports of misused assets.
- But it could be harder to, say, determine if a fraken posted on the forums is from a sprite licensed under ND.
- However, again, there are reasons people might not want their content reused, AND it's possible there's 3rd party content one might want to use that's only under ND
- Keep in mind, though, the latter point might more apply to music.
- The problems with ND mostly stem from art since that's more easy to modify
- people basically just pick up music, so ND is really inconsequential.
- @here anyway, thoughts?
- we need to resolve this soon.
- Denivarius - 11/04/2016
- @Vultraz sorry why is this an urgent issue?
- Vultraz - 11/04/2016
- @Denivarius it's not urgent per-se, I just would like to not let this sit for months on end. Plus, I would like it done before 1.14. So perhaps "soon" is a little too much; more like "in a reasonable time frame"
- Denivarius - 11/04/2016
- okay
- so I don't think this decision is something the board should be officially involved with, also I don't really have a strong opinion on it, personally.
- Vultraz - 11/04/2016
- I'd mostly just like us to discuss it, even if we (as the Board) aren't involved in an official capacity.
- Especially since the discussion on the forums went rather badly the first time.
- If, at least, there's a proposal that none of us strongly object to, that's good enough for me and i'll move ahead with the implementation.
- Denivarius - 11/04/2016
- sure.
- well I mean I'm fine with it. I think @iceiceice was the one who had the most objections so he's probably the one who'd have the most interesting/valuable feedback.
- Jetrel - 11/04/2016
- @Vultraz I think that ND and NC are pretty dangerous to support, and you've done a good job of outlining why - anything that requires manpower to police submissions and catch people using incompatible stuff is not something our community has the manpower to maintain.
- Vultraz - 11/04/2016
- @Jetrel what about NC and ND for music only, and SA (but not SA NC) for art? One does not really have to worry about people modifying music, and allowing NC and ND could widen the music pool for UMC considerably.(edited)
- Jetrel - 11/04/2016
- That's a ... fair argument. Part of me doesn't like it on principle, but it's definitely a fair argument.
- Vultraz - 11/04/2016
- let's see what @iceiceice thinks
- November 5, 2016
- ShikadiLord - 11/05/2016
- @Jetrel Remember those sprites from Francisco Muñoz that you (?) eventually discovered to have been borrowed from a non-GNU GPL game?
- Jetrel - 11/05/2016
- Yeah.
- ShikadiLord - 11/05/2016
- My point being that no matter what your license choices are, people can sneak copyright violations into the add-ons server regardless.
- Bifurcating the licensing for assets depending on whether they are music or visual art seems like a waste of time to me.
- Jetrel - 11/05/2016
- The main thrust in my prior point was policing intra-community content; being able to blanket declare "all UMC content is mutually compatible".
- We should avoid any situation where we've got multiple licenses inside our UMC server that are mutually incompatible, so folks can't use "sprite from mod A" in "mod B" because the license is incompatible.
- Policing that is the thing that's hopelessly beyond, really, any community.
- Vultraz - 11/05/2016
- I said I do not consider that a very important thing in an of itself.
- Policing is not impossible, however.
- I've watched the skyrim modding community (even contributed a small mod), but they take content usage rights very seriously
- As has been pointed out, we're one of the few modding communities that is a FFA with regards to assets(edited)
- Jetrel - 11/05/2016
- @Vultraz you can ask Phanterm about this - but basically there are a few other large communities that have mutually-incompatible rights, and it's a huge mess - Mugen, and the RPGMaker community are two he's got a lot of experience with.
- ShikadiLord - 11/05/2016
- Can we at least make an exception for portrait art?
- As well as story art.
- Jetrel - 11/05/2016
- IMO; I sympathize with that, but I feel like that ought to get done at a "community rules" level, and not at a "license level". I.e. you can get your mod taken down from wesnoth for re-using stuff in a way that's against the creator's wishes, but I don't want it to globally, "across all open source" stop something from being a useable asset.
- ShikadiLord - 11/05/2016
- I'm not sure what that last part means.
- Jetrel - 11/05/2016
- I mean, I sympathize towards us having standards where we can slap people on the wrist if they're doing something terrible, like photoshopping different character's heads on existing story art.
- But I don't feel like that kind of enforcement should go in the license.
- ShikadiLord - 11/05/2016
- That kind of enforcement seems plain unfeasible given its subjective nature.
- Jetrel - 11/05/2016
- That's why I don't think it should go in the license. That's why it should be fuzzy, arbitrary stuff dealt with at a community level, because it's just based on gut judgement.
- Mostly because if someone does something tasteful, I'm all in favor of it.
- ShikadiLord - 11/05/2016
- I've seen a lot of frankensteining of questionable quality, but I don't feel like that's something that should be banned or even frowned upon as long as it's not against the author's wishes.
- But right now we authors don't really have a way to make our wishes heard and enforced.
- I've told people when they ask whether they can use some of my sprites that legally speaking, I can't forbid them. I can only discourage them.
- I've also told them that I'd rather make them sprites than have them use those sprites.
- But the only venue for communicating this right now is in an optional conversation that takes place when people ask me whether they can use my stuff.
- Most people (including devs) just tell people to use whatever they want without worrying about asking the author for permission.
- Vultraz - 11/05/2016
- I just got a PM this moring from someon wanting to use the sprite in my forum avatar, which is the antagonist from the campaign
- I told him I'd prefer he not
- But if he does I cannot stop him :neutral_face:
- ShikadiLord - 11/05/2016
- So most of the time that conversation doesn't take place.
- Jetrel - 11/05/2016
- Yeah... like basically, that's the whole ethos of being open-source. That's the point - of moving it from a legal standpoint where they neither have to ask permission nor forgiveness. Personally I really don't care strongly about this - if we as a community want to abandon that major, cardinal pillar of being an open-content, open-source community - that's okay, though I'd push that vote out to our community as to whether they'd like to do that or not.
- So that's a really big deal... I don't care if we decide to make the big jump and abandon that particular "cornerstone" aspect of freedom - but that's a really big choice to make, and we shouldn't make it lightly.
- ShikadiLord - 11/05/2016
- Yeah, like it or not the "spirit of open source" conflicts with how the creative world really works.
- Jetrel - 11/05/2016
- Right - and mind you I'm being a bit of a lawyer here, but that's the point.
- ShikadiLord - 11/05/2016
- And even when it comes to software, it's not really great when you suddenly realize there are several independently and poorly-maintained forks of your software, and that none of them attempts to contribute back upstream.
- Jetrel - 11/05/2016
- It's a statement that the way the creative world works is wrong - that it's based on ultimately really myopic, possessive emotions that do more damage to the creators over the long term than they do benefit.
- That is the main thrust of that whole idea.
- ShikadiLord - 11/05/2016
- This tends to bite people in the ass in all kinds of ways, ranging from leaving your software open to security vulnerabilities, getting bad press, and making it a nightmare for users and distributions to use your software correctly.
- So excuse me if I've become greatly disillusioned with the "open source spirit".
- Jetrel - 11/05/2016
- :kissing:
- Come on in, the water's fine.
- That's particularly funny to me, because I've been in that boat for years - I think the thing we me is I've - despite it being tempting to just throw the whole works out the window - found that there is a fair amount of value in the whole open-source thing. Like many other major movements like that, they don't have to unanimously do good to still be a net win.
- The right position is a fair amount of nuance; sometimes having certain absolutist rules do cause a fair bit of friction (as you've seen), but that particular kind of friction is perhaps the far lesser of two evils compared to the alternative. The advantage of the absolutist rules is they may be the only way to cut certain gordian knots.
- So that's really just it - that's down to the people invested in and running UMC to make as a decision, not me. But be damned careful - you may find that the grass isn't greener at all on the other side of that fence.
- I'm going afk for a while, here...
- November 6, 2016
- Vultraz - 11/06/2016
- @Jetrel is there any chance of you getting more work done on the desert elves in time for 1.14 (current target is March)?
- Jetrel - 11/06/2016
- Very possible.
- Vultraz - 11/06/2016
- ok, good
- November 28, 2016
- Denivarius - Today at 11:44 AM
- Sorry I guess I don't understand. Is iceiceice's entire displeasure revolving around ... he didn't think vultraz should represent the board in a certain way on the forums regarding licensing content matters? Is that it? Or is there something more to it?
- Denivarius - Today at 3:37 PM
- @Vultraz / @Jetrel so I'm a bit concerned that iceiceice's decision to resign from the board continues some kind of long-running insinuation that Wesnoth, Inc's management is somehow corrupt. I think in response to his Wesnoth forum post we should ask for permission to publish the entire log from this channel so our community members can decide for themselves regarding the way we work. Any objections?
- Vultraz - Today at 3:37 PM
- no objections here
- Jetrel - Today at 3:41 PM
- likewise, no objections
- :rolling_eyes: now we get to find out how much of a PITA it is to extract discord logs(edited)
- Vultraz - Today at 3:43 PM
- https://www.reddit.com/r/discordapp/comments/4ocond/how_do_i_go_about_downloading_a_whole_chat_log/
- reddit
- How do I go about downloading a whole chat log? • /r/discordapp
- The channel in question has been up for quite a while and since I tried doing a simple continuous JS click on the .has-more button, my browser...
- Denivarius - Today at 3:44 PM
- ugh yeah
- Denivarius - Today at 4:20 PM
- alright iceiceice says he's good for us to post the log
- We might be able to use a tool to extract it though maybe just scrolling through and copy/paste is easiest for the volume we have?
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