Plenary session of the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum

Vladimir Putin took part in the plenary session of the 25th St. Petersburg International Economic Forum.
June 17, 2022
19:25
St. Petersburg
Plenary session of the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum

The President of Kazakhstan Kassym-Zhomart Tokayev also participated in the SPIEF session . President of the People's Republic of China Xi Jinping and President of Egypt Abdelfattah Sisi addressed video messages to those present.

This year the forum is held under the motto "New World - New Opportunities".

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Mikhail Simonyan: Good afternoon, it's almost evening!

You already know that there were small technical problems. Thank God they were quickly resolved. Thank you to everyone who took care of them so quickly.

Thanks to those present.

Thanks to our leader Vladimir Vladimirovich for taking the time, as always, to speak at the forum and tell us what awaits us from an economic and not only economic point of view.

Thank you, Kassym-Jomart Kemelevich, for finding the opportunity to visit us. We understand that it is not so easy. Thank you for your support of our forum and our country, we really appreciate it.

We have questions ahead. Not all of them you will probably like to hear and not all of them I will like to ask. We would love to talk only about the good, but only the good will not work.

In the meantime, I will ask you, Vladimir Vladimirovich, to come to the music stand and tell us what awaits us all.

Thank you.

Vladimir Putin: Thank you very much.

Dear Kassym-Jomart Kemelevich! Dear friends, colleagues!

I greet the participants and guests of the anniversary XXV St. Petersburg International Economic Forum.

It is taking place at a difficult time for the entire world community, when the economy, markets and the very principles of the global economic system are under attack. Many trade, production, and logistics ties that were previously disrupted by the pandemic are now going through new tests. Moreover, such key concepts for business as business reputation, inviolability of property and trust in world currencies have been thoroughly undermined - undermined, unfortunately, by our partners in the West, and this was done intentionally, for the sake of ambition, in the name of preserving outdated geopolitical illusions.

Today I will present our – when I say “our”, I mean the Russian leadership – my view on the situation in which the global economy finds itself. I will dwell in detail on how Russia is acting in these conditions and how it is planning its development in a dynamically changing environment.

A year and a half ago, speaking at the Davos forum, I once again emphasized that the era of the unipolar world order is over – I want to start with this, there is no getting away from it – it has ended, despite all attempts to preserve it, to conserve it by any means. Changes are a natural course of history, since the civilizational diversity of the planet, the richness of cultures is difficult to combine with political, economic and other patterns, patterns do not work here, patterns that are rudely, without alternative, imposed from one center.

The flaw lies in the idea itself, according to which there is one, albeit a strong power with a limited circle of approximate or, as they say, states admitted to it, and all the rules of business and international relations, when necessary, are interpreted solely in the interests of this power , as they say, work in one direction, the game goes in one direction. A world based on such dogmas is definitely unsustainable.

The United States, having declared victory in the Cold War, declared itself the messengers of the Lord on earth, who have no obligations, but only interests, and these interests are declared sacred. They do not seem to notice that over the past decades, new powerful centers have been formed on the planet and are louder and louder. Each of them develops its own political systems and public institutions, implements its own models of economic growth and, of course, has the right to protect them, to ensure national sovereignty.

We are talking about objective processes, about truly revolutionary, tectonic changes in geopolitics, the global economy, in the technological sphere, in the entire system of international relations, where the role of dynamic, promising states and regions is significantly increasing, whose interests can no longer be ignored.

I repeat: these changes are fundamental, pivotal and inexorable. And it is a mistake to believe that the time of turbulent changes can, as they say, sit out, wait out, that supposedly everything will return to normal, everything will be as before. Will not.

However, it seems that the ruling elites of some Western states are just in this kind of illusion. They do not want to notice obvious things, but stubbornly cling to the shadows of the past. For example, it is believed that the dominance of the West in global politics and economics is an unchanging, eternal value. Nothing is eternal.

Moreover, our colleagues do not simply deny reality. They are trying to counteract the course of history. They think in terms of the last century. They are in captivity of their own delusions about countries outside the so-called golden billion, they consider everything else to be the periphery, their backyard, they still treat them like a colony, and the peoples living there consider them second-class people, because they themselves consider themselves exceptional. If they are exceptional, then everyone else is second-class.

Hence the indefatigable desire to punish, economically crush those who stand out from the general ranks, do not want to blindly obey. Moreover, they rudely and shamelessly impose their own ethics, views on culture and ideas about history, and sometimes question the sovereignty and integrity of states, create a threat to their existence. Suffice it to recall the fate of Yugoslavia and Syria, Libya and Iraq.

If some rebel cannot be hounded, pacified, then they try to isolate him or, as they say now, “cancel”. Everything is used, even sports, the Olympic movement, a ban on culture, masterpieces of art - for the sole reason that their authors are of “wrong” origin.

This is the nature of the current attack of Russophobia in the West and insane sanctions against Russia. Crazy and, I would say, thoughtless. Their number, as well as the speed of stamping, knows no precedents.

The calculation was clear: impudently, with a swoop, crush the Russian economy, due to the destruction of business chains, the forced recall of Western companies from the Russian market, the freezing of domestic assets, to hit industry, finance, and the standard of living of people.

Did not work out. Obviously, it did not work out, did not take place. Russian entrepreneurs and authorities worked in a focused and professional manner, citizens showed solidarity and responsibility.

We are step by step normalizing the economic situation. First, we stabilized the financial markets, the banking system and the trading network. Then they began to saturate the economy with liquidity and working capital to maintain the stability of enterprises and companies, employment and jobs.

The gloomy forecasts regarding the prospects for the Russian economy, which sounded at the beginning of spring, did not come true. At the same time, it is clear why this propaganda campaign was inflated, where all these spells about a dollar for 200 rubles and about the collapse of our economy as a whole come from - all this was and remains an instrument of information warfare, a factor of psychological impact on Russian society, on domestic business circles.

By the way, some of our experts succumbed to such external pressure, in their forecasts they also proceeded from the inevitable collapse of the Russian economy and the critical weakening of the national currency - the ruble.

Life has refuted such predictions. However, I would like to emphasize and would like to note that in order to continue to achieve success, we must assess the situation as honestly and realistically as possible, at the same time be independent in our conclusions and, of course, believe in our own strength - this is very important. We are strong people and we can handle any challenge. Like our ancestors, we will solve any problem. This is evidenced by the entire thousand-year history of our country.

Literally three months after the massive package of sanctions, we suppressed the inflation surge. After peaking at 17.8 percent, as you know, inflation is now at 16.7 percent and continues to decline. Economic dynamics are stabilizing, public finances are stable. I will then make a comparison with other regions. Yes, it's too much for us, of course. 16.7 percent is high inflation. We must work with this and will continue to do so, and I am sure we will achieve a positive result.

According to the results of the first five months of this year, the federal budget was executed with a surplus of 1.5 trillion rubles, and the consolidated budget with a surplus of 3.3 trillion rubles. At the same time, the federal budget surplus in May alone amounted to almost half a trillion rubles, exceeding last year's May figure by more than four times.

Today, our task is to create conditions for increasing production, for increasing supply in the domestic market and, in a balanced way with the growth in supply, to restore final demand and bank lending to the economy.

I have already said: we have taken special measures to replenish the working capital of companies. Including business in almost all industries received the right to deferral of insurance premiums for the second quarter of this year. At the same time, manufacturing enterprises have more opportunities: they will be able to take advantage of the delay in the third quarter. In fact, we are talking about an interest-free loan from the state.

In the future, deferred payments on insurance premiums will not need to be paid, as they say, at once. This can be done in equal installments within 12 months starting from June next year.

Further. Since May, the rate on preferential mortgages has been reduced. Now it is nine percent. At the same time, the preferential mortgage program itself has been extended until the end of this year. As I have already said, the purpose of such a measure is to help citizens solve housing problems, support the construction and related industries, and we employ millions of workers there.

After a sharp rise in the spring, interest rates in the Russian economy are gradually declining, the Central Bank lowers the key rate. In this regard, I consider it possible to once again lower the rate on preferential mortgages, now to seven percent.

But what would you like to pay attention to? The duration of the program remains the same - until the end of this year. This means that those of our citizens who want to improve their living conditions with this benefit must use it before the end of this year.

The maximum loan amounts are also preserved: 12 million rubles for Moscow and St. Petersburg and six million rubles for other subjects of the Federation.

I would add that it is important for us in general to increase the availability of long-term financial resources and credit for the economy. In the near future, the emphasis in supporting business activity should shift from fiscal stimulus measures to market bank lending mechanisms.

This process should definitely be supported. Thus, to increase the capacity of the VEB Project Finance Factory, we will allocate 120 billion rubles from the National Welfare Fund. Such a measure will provide additional lending to demanded initiatives and projects in the amount of about half a trillion rubles.

Dear colleagues!

I have already said that the economic blitzkrieg against Russia initially had no chance of success. At the same time, the sanctioned weapon, as you know, and the practice of recent years shows this well, is double-edged. It inflicts comparable, and even greater damage to the very same ideologists and designers of it.

And it's not just about the current obvious consequences. We know that among the leaders of European countries, at the level of informal conversations, as they say, very disturbing prospects are being furtively discussed, that sanctions can be applied not only against Russia, but also against any objectionable state, sooner or later they can affect everyone, including the EU members themselves and European companies.

So far, things have not come to this, but European politicians have already dealt a serious blow to their economy - they did it themselves, with their own hands. We see how social and economic problems have become aggravated in Europe, and in the United States too, how the cost of goods, food, electricity and automobile fuel is growing, how the quality of life of Europeans is declining, and the competitiveness of enterprises is being lost.

According to experts, only direct, “countable” losses of the European Union from the sanctions fever over the coming year may exceed $400 billion. Such is the price of decisions divorced from reality and taken contrary to common sense.

These costs are directly borne by the population and companies of the European Union. Inflation growth in some eurozone countries has already exceeded 20 percent. I talked about our inflation, but the countries of the eurozone do not conduct any special military operations, and inflation has risen in them - in some of them - up to 20 percent. The United States also has unacceptable inflation, the highest in 40 years.

Yes, of course, inflation in Russia is also still at double-digit levels. However, we have already carried out the indexation of social payments and pensions, raised the minimum wage and the living wage, thus protecting the least well-to-do citizens. And, in turn, high interest rates made it possible to keep people's savings in the Russian banking system.

Of course, for business representatives it is understandable: a high key rate is pressing the economy - understandably. For citizens, in most cases, this is still a plus: they returned a significant amount of money to banks at a high interest rate.

This is the main difference from the countries of the European Union, where the growth of inflation directly leads to a decrease in the real incomes of the population and eats up their savings, and the current crisis is a burden primarily on low-income citizens.

The rise in costs of European companies and their loss of the Russian market also have serious long-term consequences. The result here is obvious - the loss of global competitiveness and a systemic slowdown in the growth of the European economy, and for years to come.

All this leads to an aggravation of deep problems in Western societies. Yes, of course, we have enough problems of our own, but I have to talk about this now, because they point fingers at us all the time, but they themselves have enough problems. I also spoke about this in Davos. A direct consequence of the actions of European politicians and the events of this year will be a further aggravation of inequality in these countries, which, in turn, will further split their societies, and the issue is not only in the level of well-being, but also in the value orientations of various groups in this society.

Yes, now these contradictions are suppressed, "swept under the rug." Democratic procedures, elections in the same Europe – to be honest, sometimes you look at what is happening there, what forces are coming to power – all this looks like a screen, because political parties similar to twins change each other in power. However, the essence of this does not change. The real interests of citizens and national business are pushed further and further to the backyard, to the periphery.

Such a separation from reality, from the demands of society will inevitably lead to a surge of populism and the growth of extreme, radical movements, to serious socio-economic changes, to degradation, and in the near future, to a change of elites. Traditional games, as you can see, lose all the time. Some new formations appear, but if they differ little from the traditional ones, they also have little chance of survival.

All attempts to put on a good face in a bad game, all talk about allegedly acceptable costs in the name of pseudo-unity cannot hide the main thing: the European Union has finally lost its political sovereignty, and its bureaucratic elites are dancing to someone else's tune, accepting everything they are told from above, harming their own population and their own economy, their own business.

What else is of fundamental importance here? The worsening of the situation in the global economy is not a matter of recent months. Now I will focus on things that I consider extremely important. What is happening is not the result of recent months, of course not. Moreover, it is not the result of a special military operation carried out by Russia in the Donbass. Such statements are frank and deliberate distortion of facts.

A sharp increase in inflation in the commodity and raw materials markets became a fact long before the events of this year. The world has been consistently driven into such a situation by many years of irresponsible macroeconomic policies of the so-called G7 countries, including uncontrolled emission and accumulation of unsecured debts. Moreover, these processes only accelerated and intensified with the onset of the coronavirus pandemic back in 2020, when both supply and demand for goods and services drastically decreased globally.

The question is: what does our military operation in the Donbass have to do with it? It has nothing to do with it at all.

Without inventing or not wishing to use other recipes, the authorities of the leading Western economies simply launched the printing press. In such a simple way they began to cover previously unprecedented budget deficits.

I have already mentioned this figure: over the past two years, the money supply in the United States has grown by more than 38 percent. Previously, there was such an increase for decades, but here in two years 38 percent is 5.9 trillion dollars. In comparison, only a few countries in the world have a larger gross domestic product.

The money supply of the European Union, in turn, also increased sharply during this period. Its volume increased by about 20 percent, or by 2.5 trillion euros.

Lately, I’ve been hearing more and more about the so-called – if you’ll excuse me, I don’t like to study here, and I don’t like to mention myself in any way, but I can’t help but say – we all hear about the so-called Putin’s inflation in the West. When I see this, I always think: who is this stupidity designed for - those who cannot read and write, that's all. People who can at least read understand what's really going on.

Russia, our actions to liberate Donbass have absolutely nothing to do with it. Today's rise in prices, inflation, problems with food and fuel, gasoline, in the energy sector as a whole are the result of systemic mistakes in the economic policy of the current US administration and the European bureaucracy. Here are the reasons, and only in this.

I will also say about our operation: yes, it had some meaning, but the root is precisely in this - in their erroneous economic policy. For them, the beginning of our operation in the Donbass is a lifeline that allows them to blame their own miscalculations on others, in this case, on Russia. But everyone who has at least a primary school education understands the true reasons for the current situation.

They printed money in huge quantities, and then what? Where did all these funds go? Obviously: including the purchase of goods and services outside Western countries - that's where they flowed, this money is printed. They literally began to "vacuum", rake out the global markets. Of course, no one thought about the interests of other states, including the poorest ones, and did not want to think about it. They were left only what is called, as our people say, lumps, and even at astronomical prices.

So, if at the end of 2019 imports, imports of goods to the United States amounted to about $250 billion a month, by now it has grown to $350 billion. It is noteworthy that the growth amounted to 40 percent - in proportion, this exactly corresponds to the unsecured pumping of the dollar money supply in recent years. They printed, distributed money, and for this money they raked out all the goods from the markets of third countries.

Let me add one more thing: the United States has long been a major supplier of food on the world market, deservedly, indeed, deservedly proud of - and there was something - of their agriculture, farming traditions, this is an example for many, and for us, by the way, too. But today America's role has changed dramatically. From a net exporter of food, it has become a net importer. Roughly speaking, they print money and draw commodity flows over themselves, buying food all over the world.

Even higher rates of increasing imports of goods are observed in the European Union. It is clear that such a sharp increase in demand, not backed by product supply, launched a wave of shortages and global inflation. That's where it comes from, this global inflation. Over the past couple of years, almost everything in the world has risen in price: raw materials, consumer goods, and especially food.

Yes, of course, these countries, including the States, they continue to import, but the balance between exports and imports is already in the other direction: there are already, in my opinion, 17 billion more imports than exports. That's what it's all about.

According to the UN, back in February of this year, the global food cost index was 50 percent higher than in May 2020, and the composite commodity index doubled over the same period.

In the context of an inflationary storm, many developing countries have a reasonable question: why exchange goods for dollars and euros, which are losing weight before our eyes? The conclusion suggests itself: the economy of imaginary entities is inevitably replaced by the economy of real values ​​and assets.

According to the IMF, there are now $7.1 trillion and €2.5 trillion in global foreign exchange reserves, and this money is depreciating at a rate of about eight percent per year. But, in addition, at any moment they can also be confiscated, stolen, if the United States does not like something in the policy of certain states. Well, this, in my opinion, has become absolutely real for very many countries that keep their gold and foreign exchange reserves in these currencies.

According to experts, in the coming years, this is an objective analysis, the process of converting global reserves will be launched - they just have nowhere to go with such deficits - from currencies losing their value into real resources - other countries, of course, will do this, - such as food, energy, and other raw materials. Obviously, this process will further spur global dollar inflation.

As far as Europe is concerned, the failed energy policy, the blind bet on renewable sources and spot supplies of natural gas, which led to a sharp increase in the cost of energy, which has been observed since the third quarter of last year, also made an additional negative contribution to the unwinding of prices - I repeat again, long before the start of our operation in the Donbass. We have absolutely nothing to do with it. They themselves did things there, prices skyrocketed, and they are looking for the guilty again.

The miscalculations of the West not only affected the growth in the cost of many goods and services, but also led to a decrease in the output of fertilizers, primarily nitrogen, produced from natural gas. In general, only from the middle of last year to February of this year, global prices for fertilizers increased by more than 70 percent.

Unfortunately, there are no prerequisites for changing such price trends today. On the contrary, against this background, the work of enterprises and the logistics of fertilizer supplies from Russia and Belarus are blocked. Thus, the situation is further driven into a dead end.

It is not difficult to calculate the further development of events. The lack of fertilizers means a decrease in yields, which means that the risks of undersupply of food to the world market will increase, prices will go up even more, which threatens starvation primarily in the poorest countries, and this will be entirely on the conscience of the United States administration and the European bureaucracy.

Let me emphasize once again: this problem did not appear today, not in the last three or four months, and it absolutely certainly did not arise through Russia’s fault, as some demagogues are now saying, trying to shift the responsibility for everything that happens in the world economy onto our country.

Of course, we might be pleased to hear that we are so powerful and omnipotent: we are blowing inflation to the skies in the West, in the USA, in Europe, we are doing something else there that makes everyone in a fever. Maybe it would be nice for us to feel such power, but this is not true. The situation has matured over the years, spurred on by the short-sighted actions of those who are accustomed to solving their problems at someone else's expense, who relied and still rely on the mechanism of financial emission in order to outbid, pull over trade flows and thereby exacerbate deficits and provoke humanitarian catastrophes in certain regions peace. I would like to add: this is essentially the same predatory colonial policy, but, of course, in a new form, in a new edition, much more subtle and sophisticated. You won't understand right away what's going on.

Now the most important task for the entire world community is to increase the supply of food products to the global market, including meeting the needs of countries that are especially in need of food.

Russia, ensuring its internal food security, its internal market, is able to significantly increase the export of food and fertilizers. For example, the volume of our grain deliveries next season may increase to 50 million tons.

As a matter of priority, we will send our deliveries to those countries where the need for food is greatest and where there are risks of an increase in the number of hungry people. First of all, we are talking about African countries and the Middle East region.

However, there are difficulties here, also arising through no fault of ours. Yes, formally on Russian grain, food and fertilizers... By the way, the Americans imposed sanctions on our fertilizers, followed by the Europeans. Then the Americans took it and canceled it - they realized where they were. But the Europeans are not. Their bureaucracy simply works like millstones in an eighteenth-century mill. Therefore, everyone understands that they did something stupid, but somehow it is already difficult to unscrew it back for bureaucratic reasons.

So, I repeat, Russia is ready to make its contribution to balancing the world markets for agricultural products, and we, of course, welcome the openness to dialogue on this issue on the part of our colleagues from the UN, who understand the acuteness of the global food problem. The subject for such a conversation may be the creation of normal conditions - logistical, financial, transport - for increasing Russian exports of food and fertilizers.

As for – I can’t help but mention this too, unfortunately, there are a lot of speculations on this matter – Ukrainian food supplies to world markets: we do not interfere. For God's sake. We did not mine the Black Sea ports of Ukraine. Let them mine and take them out. We will ensure the security of the pilotage of these civilian vessels. There is no question at all.

But what is it about? USDA estimates that this is six million tons of wheat; according to our estimates, somewhere around five. And somewhere else seven million tons of corn. And that's it. And if we keep in mind that 800 million tons of wheat are produced in the world, then five million tons for the world market, as you understand, does not make any weather at all.

Nevertheless, there are export opportunities, and not only through the Black Sea ports. Please, export through Belarus - the cheapest way, by the way. Through Poland, Romania - as much as you like. There are five or six pickup options.

It's not about us, it's about the adequacy of the people who are in power in Kyiv. Let them decide what to do, and in this case at least they don't look to their masters from abroad, from abroad, from overseas.

But there is another danger that this grain will be used to pay for the supplied weapons. It will be really sad then.

Dear friends!

As I have already said, the modern world is going through an era of cardinal changes. International institutions break down and fail. Security guarantees are devalued. The West has fundamentally refused to fulfill its earlier obligations. It was simply impossible to reach any new agreements with him.

In the current situation, against the backdrop of growing risks and threats for us, Russia's decision to conduct a special military operation was forced. Difficult, certainly, but forced and necessary.

This is the decision of a sovereign country, which has an unconditional right, based, by the way, on the UN Charter, to defend its security. A decision aimed at protecting our citizens, residents of the people's republics of Donbass, who for eight years were subjected to genocide by the Kyiv regime and neo-Nazis who received the full protection of the West.

The West not only sought to implement the “anti-Russia” scenario, but also led an active military development of Ukrainian territory, literally pumping Ukraine with weapons and military advisers. It continues to do so even now. To be honest, no one pays any attention to the development of the economy, the well-being of the people living there, they just don’t give a damn about it, in any way, but there is no money to create a NATO foothold in the east, directed against Russia, to cultivate aggression, hatred and Russophobia regretted and do not regret.

Today, our soldiers and officers, the Donbass militia are fighting to protect their people. They defend Russia's right to free and secure development as a large multinational country that makes decisions on its own, determines its own future, relies on its history, culture and traditions, and rejects all attempts to impose pseudo-values ​​of dehumanization and moral degradation from outside.

All tasks of the special military operation will certainly be solved. And the key to this is the courage and heroism of our soldiers, the consolidation of Russian society, whose support gives strength and confidence to the Russian army and navy, a deep understanding of the rightness and historical justice of our cause – building and strengthening a strong sovereign power, Russia.

What do I want to emphasize? Sovereignty in the 21st century cannot be partial or fragmentary. All its elements are equally important, they reinforce and complement each other.

Therefore, it is important for us not only to defend our political sovereignty and national identity, but also to strengthen everything that determines the economic independence of the country, its financial, personnel, technological independence and independence.

The very construction of Western sanctions was built on the false thesis that Russia is not sovereign from the point of view of the economy, it is critically vulnerable. They were so carried away by the spread of myths about the backwardness of Russia, about the weakness of its position in the world economy and trade, that they themselves, apparently, believed it.

When planning their economic blitzkrieg, they did not notice, they simply ignored the real facts, how our country has changed in recent years.

And these changes are the result of our planned work to create a sustainable macroeconomic structure, to ensure food security, to implement import substitution programs, to form our own payment system, and so on.

Of course, the sanctions restrictions have posed many difficult tasks for the country. Some enterprises continue to experience problems with components. A number of technological solutions have become inaccessible to our companies. Logistics broken.

But, on the other hand, all this opens up new opportunities for us - we often talk about it, but it's true. All this is an incentive to build an economy with full, and not partial, technological, industrial, human, scientific potential and sovereignty.

Of course, such a complex problem cannot be solved, as they say, at one moment. We need to continue systematic work designed for the future. This is exactly how Russia is acting, implementing long-term plans for the development of economic sectors and strengthening the social sphere. And the current tests only make adjustments and refinements to these plans, but do not change their strategic focus.

And today I would like to dwell on the key principles on the basis of which our country and our economy will develop.

The first is openness. Truly sovereign states are always committed to equal partnership, to making their contribution to global development. And, on the contrary, those who are weak and dependent, as a rule, are busy looking for enemies, planting xenophobia, or completely losing their originality, independence, blindly following the overlord.

Russia - despite the fact that our Western, so to speak, friends literally dream about it - will never follow the path of self-isolation and autarky. Moreover, we are expanding and will continue to expand interaction with everyone who is interested in this, who wants to work with us. There are many, I won't list them. This is the vast majority of people on earth. Now I will not list all these countries, everyone knows about it.

I won’t say anything new if I remind you that everyone who wants to continue working and working with Russia is subjected to open pressure from the United States and Europe, sometimes even reaching direct threats. However, such blackmail means little when it comes to countries headed by real leaders who clearly understand where others are and where national, their own interests, the interests of their peoples.

Russia will build up economic cooperation with such states and promote joint projects. At the same time, of course, we will also interact with Western companies that, despite the unprecedented "arm-twisting", continue to successfully operate on the Russian market, there are also such companies.

We see the development of a convenient and independent payment infrastructure in national currencies as a solid, predictable basis for deepening international cooperation. And in order to help companies in our countries establish logistics and cooperation ties, we are shaping the development of transport corridors, increasing the capacity of railways, transshipment capacities of ports in the Arctic, in the eastern, southern and other directions. Including in the Azov-Black Sea and Caspian basins, they will become the most important section of the North-South corridor, which will provide stable communication channels with the Middle East and South Asia. We expect that cargo traffic along this route will begin to grow steadily in the near future.

But international trade is not the only thing that matters. Russia intends to build up scientific, technological, cultural, humanitarian and sports cooperation on the principles of equality and respect for partners. At the same time, our country will strive for responsible leadership in all these areas.

The second principle of our long-term development is the reliance on entrepreneurial freedoms. Each private initiative aimed at the benefit of Russia should receive maximum support and space for implementation.

The pandemic and current events have confirmed the importance of flexibility and freedom in an economy. It is private business that, under harsh conditions, against the background of attempts to restrain our development by any means, has proved that it is able to compete in global markets. Adaptation to rapidly changing external conditions also occurs at the expense of private business. It is necessary to ensure the dynamic development of the economy, of course, relying on private business.

We will continue to reduce the administrative burden. So, from 2016 to 2018, we had a moratorium on scheduled inspections of small businesses. Later it was extended, in total until the end of 2022. In 2020, this moratorium also covered medium-sized companies. In addition, the number of unscheduled inspections has decreased by almost four times.

But we went even further, and in March of this year, we abandoned scheduled inspections of all entrepreneurs, regardless of the size of the business, with one condition: if their activities are not associated with a high risk of harm to citizens and the environment. As a result, now the number of scheduled inspections has decreased by six times compared to last year.

Why am I talking about this in such detail now? The fact is that after the introduction of moratoriums on inspections, the number of violations by entrepreneurs - such a result - did not increase, but decreased, the number of violations decreased. This speaks of the maturity and responsibility of Russian business. He needs to be motivated, and, of course, not forced to comply with norms and requirements.

This means that there is every reason to take another, cardinal step forward: forever, on an ongoing basis, refuse to conduct most inspections of all Russian businesses, whose activities are not associated with high risks of harm. It has long been clear to everyone: there is no need to go and check everyone in a row. A risk-based approach should work. I ask the Government to determine the specific parameters of such a reform in the coming months.

And here is another very sensitive topic for business, and today it is also a matter of our national security and economic sustainability. In order to reduce and minimize all sorts of abuses, loopholes for putting pressure on entrepreneurs, we are consistently removing the vague norms of criminal law in terms of the so-called economic offenses.

In March, a law was signed according to which criminal cases against entrepreneurs on tax structures can only be initiated upon the presentation of the tax service - and nothing else. In the near future, a bill should be adopted to reduce the statute of limitations for tax crimes, as well as to refuse to initiate criminal cases after the full repayment of tax arrears.

In general, it is necessary to carefully, but at the same time thoroughly approach the decriminalization of a number of so-called economic structures. For example, those related to work without a license or accreditation. Now this is a very delicate issue due to the illegitimate behavior of our Western partners, for example, who refuse to provide such licenses.

In such cases, our state bodies should not, as they say, bring Russian business under the article with their own hands, despite the fact that there is no real fault of our entrepreneurs. You understand what it's about. Those who work in small businesses also understand this very well. The license has expired, Western partners do not renew - well, what should they do? Shut down business, right? Whatever it is, the way is working. It is necessary, of course, to keep everything under control of the state, but not to interfere with their work.

You should also think about raising the threshold for liability for non-payment of customs and other obligatory payments. In addition, we have not changed the parameters for determining large and especially large damage for a long time, despite the accumulated inflation. Such a discrepancy between the norm of the law and realities of life, of course, needs to be corrected. From 2016 to today, inflation has accumulated at about 50 percent, and these parameters have not changed - they need to be changed, of course.

Finally, it is necessary to reconsider the grounds for the detention of entrepreneurs and for the extension of the preliminary investigation. It is no secret that very often these norms are applied where there is no objective necessity.

As a result, even at the stage of investigation, enterprises are forced to suspend their activities or close down altogether. In this case, in addition to direct losses and the loss of market positions and jobs, the reputation of companies and their leaders is under attack.

I draw the attention of law enforcement structures: it is necessary to put an end to this practice. And I ask the Government, together with the Supreme Court, to prepare appropriate amendments to the law. I ask you to complete this work before October 1 of this year.

In addition, a special instruction has been given through the Security Council to analyze situations where criminal cases are initiated but not brought to trial. The number of such cases has increased significantly in recent years. What is behind this is clear to everyone. Often a case is opened without sufficient grounds or is used to put pressure on companies or specific individuals. In the fall, we will discuss this topic separately and make additional decisions regarding legislation and the organization of the work of law enforcement agencies.

Of course, regional management teams play a big role in creating a modern business environment. On the site of the St. Petersburg Forum, I traditionally note those subjects of the Federation that have made significant progress in the National Investment Climate Rating, which is maintained by the Agency for Strategic Initiatives.

Here we have changes in the first three. Moscow and Tatarstan, which continue to lead, were joined this year by the Moscow Region. During the year, she rose from eighth place to the leaders, to the top three. The leaders of the rating are also Tula, Nizhny Novgorod, Tyumen, Novgorod, Sakhalin regions, St. Petersburg and Bashkortostan.

Separately, I would like to note the regions with the greatest progress: these are the Kurgan region - an increase of 36 positions, the Perm and Altai Territories - an increase of 26 positions, Ingushetia - by 24 positions, and the Ivanovo region, which rose by 17 positions.

I want to thank and congratulate our colleagues in the regions for this work.

And of course, the focus of the federal government, regional and municipal teams should be on supporting business initiatives of citizens in small towns and individual settlements and remote areas. We also have such examples of success. This includes the creation of popular software, the sale of environmentally friendly products, goods of own production throughout the country through domestic Internet sites.

It is important to create new opportunities here, to introduce modern trade formats, including electronic platforms, as I have already said, to reduce logistics, transport and other costs, including by using modernized branches of the Russian Post.

It is also necessary to help employees of small companies, self-employed citizens, start-up entrepreneurs with obtaining additional skills and competencies. Appropriate measures aimed specifically at small towns, rural areas, remote areas and territories, I ask you to include in a special line in the national project for the development of small and medium-sized businesses.

Today I would like to address our leaders, the owners of large companies – our major entrepreneurs and managers.

Dear colleagues, friends!

Real, lasting success, a sense of dignity and self-respect come only when you link your future, the future of your children with your homeland. Many of us have been in relationship for a long time, and I know the sentiments of many of our company executives and owners. I heard from you many times that business is much more than making a profit, the way it is, and changing the life around, contributing to the development of your hometown, region, country as a whole is an extremely important thing for self-realization, serving people and society is nothing you won't replace. This is the whole meaning of life, the whole meaning of work.

Recent events have only confirmed what I constantly said earlier: houses are safer. Those who did not want to hear this obvious message lost hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars in the West - such was the supposedly quiet haven for capital.

Once again, I want to say to my colleagues, including those who are in the hall and those who are not here today: please do not step on the old rake. Our country has a gigantic potential, and there are no end to the tasks that require the application of forces. Invest here, invest in the creation of new businesses and jobs, in the development of tourism infrastructure, support schools, universities, health and social services, culture and sports. I know a lot of people do that, I know - I just want to re-emphasize it.

This is how the Bakhrushins and Morozovs, the Shchukins and Ryabushinskys, the Akchurins and Galeevs, the Apanaevs and Matsievs, Mamontovs, Tretyakovs, Arsanovs, Dadashevs, and Gadzhievs understood their mission. Many Russian, Tatar, Buryat, Chechen, Dagestan, Yakut, Ossetian, Jewish, Armenian and other merchant and business families, who did not offend their direct heirs, forever inscribed their name in the history of our country.

By the way, I would like to emphasize something else. For heirs, possible heirs of capital, it is still unknown what is more important: the money, property or good name they inherited and the merits of their ancestors to the country. This is definitely no one will squander it, sorry for the bad manners, no one will drink it.

And what will remain with future generations of heirs - a good name will remain with them forever. And this will definitely go with them through life, from generation to generation, will help them, support them through life, make them stronger than even the money that they can inherit or property.

Dear colleagues!

The third principle of our long-term development is a responsible and balanced macroeconomic policy. In many respects, it was this line that allowed us to withstand the unprecedented sanctions pressure. But I repeat, for us this policy is important not only to respond to current challenges, but also in the long term. We will not repeat the sad experience of our Western colleagues, who unleashed an inflationary spiral and unbalanced their finances.

Our goal is the steady development of the economy for years to come, reducing the inflationary burden on citizens and businesses, and achieving the target inflation rate of four percent in the medium and long term. I almost started with inflation and now I would like to say about it: four percent – ​​we still have such a goal.

I have already instructed the Government to prepare proposals for new budget rules. They should ensure the predictability of the budget policy and create conditions for maximum use of the external economic situation. All this is necessary to strengthen the foundation of economic growth, solve infrastructure and technological problems, which is the basis for improving the well-being of citizens.

Yes, some of the world's reserve currencies are now suicidal, it is obvious, in any case, they have suicidal tendencies. Of course, it is pointless to “sterilize” our money supply with their help today. But the main principle - to spend, based on an understanding of how much you have earned, remains, and no one has canceled it. We understand this.

The fourth principle of our development is social justice. The growth of the economy and business initiative, industrial opportunities and scientific and technological potential of the country must have a powerful social embodiment. Such development should lead to a reduction in inequality, and not to its exacerbation, as is happening in some other countries. And, to be honest, we are not champions in solving these problems either, we still have many questions and problems here.

The reduction of poverty and inequality is the demand for domestic products, and throughout the country, and hence the reduction of the gap in the potential of the regions, the creation of new jobs exactly where they are most needed, in general, a determining condition for further economic development.

Let me emphasize that the positive dynamics of real incomes of citizens, the reduction of poverty is the main indicator of the effectiveness of the work of government bodies and the state as a whole. Moreover, tangible results here, despite all the objective difficulties, must be achieved already this year, and such a task has been set for the Government.

I repeat, we provide targeted support to the most vulnerable groups of citizens: pensioners, families with children, as well as those who are in a difficult life situation.

Pensions increase annually at a rate higher than inflation. This year, they were raised twice, including from June 1 by an additional ten percent.

Simultaneously with pensions, the minimum wage has been increased by ten percent, as well as the living wage, which is tied to many other social benefits and payments, they, respectively, should also increase, which directly affects the incomes of about 15 million people.

In recent years, we have built an integrated system of support for needy families with children. Assistance from the state can be received by a woman from the early stages of pregnancy until the child reaches 17 years of age.

The well-being of people, their prosperity is the most important factor in demographic development, and here, taking into account the overlapping negative demographic waves, the situation is extremely difficult. In April, less than a hundred thousand children were born in Russia, which is almost 13 percent less than in April 2020.

I ask the Government to constantly monitor the development of additional measures to support families with children. They must be of a cardinal nature, commensurate with the scale of the extraordinary demographic challenge we face.

The future of Russia is a family with two, three or more children. Therefore, we should be talking not only about direct financial support - we need to target, adjust the health care system, education, and all areas that determine the quality of people's lives to the needs of families with children.

The national social initiative, which regional teams and ASI are implementing together, is aimed at solving this problem. In the fall, we will evaluate the results of this work and summarize the results of the quality of life rating in the regions in order to use the best experiences and practices as widely as possible throughout the country.

Another, fifth, principle on which Russia builds its economic policy is the priority development of infrastructure.

We have already increased direct budgetary spending on strengthening transport arteries. Next year, a large-scale plan for the construction and repair of the backbone network of federal and regional highways will start. In five years, at least 85 percent of its length must be brought to a standard state.

Such a new tool as infrastructural budget loans is actively used. They are issued for 15 years at a rate of three percent. I have already said that the demand for them turned out to be much higher than we originally planned. The regions have a lot of well-developed, promising projects - we cannot postpone their launch. We are still considering what to do with this measure of support. There was some discussion about this last night. In any case, now I can only state that this tool works reliably.

A separate issue is the modernization of housing and communal services. There are many problems here. The industry is chronically underinvested, estimated at 4.5 trillion rubles. Over 40 percent of networks are to be replaced. Hence the low efficiency and high losses. At the same time, about three percent of networks deteriorate and become unusable every year, and no more than two percent are replaced by new ones, that is, the problem is getting worse from year to year.

I propose consolidating resources and launching a comprehensive program for the modernization of housing and communal services, synchronizing it with other infrastructure development plans, as well as capital repairs of the housing stock. The task is to radically change the situation, to consistently reduce the share of obsolete networks, just as we are doing by resettling emergency housing and repairing roads. We will discuss in detail the issues of housing and communal services and the development of the construction complex with the governors at a meeting of the Presidium of the State Council next week.

In addition, I separately propose to increase the amount of resources for projects to create a comfortable urban environment in small towns and historical settlements. This program works well for us. I propose to allocate another ten billion rubles annually for these purposes in 2023-2024.

We will allocate additional funds for the renewal of cities in the Far East. I ask the Government to provide special limits for these purposes within the framework of the programs of infrastructure budget loans and the modernization of housing and communal services, as well as other development programs.

An absolute priority for us is the comprehensive arrangement and development of rural areas. People who work in the countryside, feed the country, and, as it is now clear, a significant part of the world, must live in comfortable, decent conditions. In this regard, I ask the Government to allocate additional funds for the profile program. Export duties from the sale of agricultural products can become a financial source here. This is a permanent source. Of course, it can fluctuate, but it will be permanent.

At the same time, I separately propose to expand programs for the reconstruction and modernization of rural houses of culture, as well as regional and municipal theaters and museums, by allocating six billion rubles for these purposes in 2023 and 2024.

An exceptionally demanded and important task for people is what I just said in the field of culture. Let me give you a very recent example: during the awarding of Hero of Labor medals, one of the recipients from Yakutia, Vladimir Afrikanovich Mikhailov, in a closed part, directly asked for help with the construction of a cultural center in his native village. Of course, we will definitely do it. But the fact that people are talking about it at all levels shows that it is in high demand.

I will also make a small digression, which is appropriate now, with the beginning of summer - the traditional time for holidays here in Russia.

Every year more and more tourists seek to visit the most beautiful natural places of our country: national parks, wildlife sanctuaries, nature reserves. According to estimates, this year the tourist flow will exceed 12 million people. It is important that government agencies, business, and tourists know what is permissible and what cannot be done in these territories, where it is possible to build tourist facilities, and where it is strictly prohibited, where it creates risks for unique and vulnerable ecosystems.

The State Duma is already considering a bill that is designed to regulate the organization of tourism in specially protected areas, to create a civilized basis for such activities.

In this regard, I would like to draw attention to the following: all decisions made here must be calculated and balanced, and we must take this seriously.

I will especially note the task of saving and preserving Baikal. In particular, this is the aim of a unique project for the integrated development of the city of Baikalsk, which should become the standard of prudent, environmentally-oriented management.

The task is not only to eliminate the accumulated harm to nature from the activities of the Baikal Pulp and Paper Mill, but also to bring the city to a fundamentally different level of life, to make it the hallmark of Russian eco-tourism. The project should be implemented using the most advanced technologies, environmentally friendly energy sources.

In general, we will develop clean technologies in order to achieve the goals set for the environmental modernization of enterprises, to reduce harmful emissions into the atmosphere, especially in large industrial centers. We will also continue to work within the framework of circular economy projects, green projects and climate protection, which we spoke about in detail here at the forum last year.

In this regard, the sixth, in my opinion, cross-cutting principle of development that unites our work is the achievement of true technological sovereignty, the creation of an integral system of economic development, which, in terms of critically important components, does not depend on foreign institutions. We need to build all spheres of life at a qualitatively new technological level and, at the same time, be not just users of other people's solutions, but have the technological keys to creating goods and services for the next generations.

In recent years, we have paid much attention to import substitution, and have achieved success in a number of areas: in the agro-industrial complex, in the production of medicines, medical equipment, in the military-industrial complex, and in a number of other areas.

But, and I would like to emphasize this, we have a lot of discussions in society on this matter, import substitution is not a panacea, not a cardinal solution. If we only repeat others, try to replace, even with the highest quality copies, other people's goods, then we run the risk of being in the position of constantly catching up, but we need to be one step ahead, create our own competitive technologies, products and services that can become new world standards.

Let me remind you in this regard that Sergei Pavlovich Korolev did not follow the path of copying and partially improving captured rocket technology, but looked to the future and proposed a unique batch scheme for creating the R-7 rocket, opened the way for humanity into space, and in fact set the standard for the whole world and for decades to come.

This is exactly how the founders of many Soviet scientific programs worked ahead of the curve, and now, relying on such groundwork, our designers are moving forward with dignity. Thanks to them, Russia has hypersonic weapons, which are still unparalleled in any country in the world. Rosatom maintains a leading position in nuclear technology and develops a nuclear icebreaker fleet. Many Russian solutions for artificial intelligence and big data processing are the best in the world.

I repeat, technological development is a cross-cutting direction that will determine not only the current decade, but the entire 21st century. We will discuss in detail the topic of building a new technological economy - technoeconomics - at the next Strategic Development Council. There are many topics for discussion, and most importantly - for making managerial decisions. I mean the development of engineering education and the transfer of scientific developments to the real economy, the provision of financial resources for fast-growing, high-tech companies. We will also discuss the development of end-to-end technologies and the progress of digital transformation projects in individual industries.

I emphasize that it is, of course, impossible to produce everything and everything, and it is not necessary. However, we need to have all the critical technologies in order to, if necessary, quickly establish our own production of any product. This is exactly what we did when we quickly provided the production of vaccines against coronavirus, and now launched the production of many other types of products and services.

For example, after the unscrupulous partners of KamAZ left the Russian market, their niche is now occupied by domestic companies. Moreover, we are talking about the supply of components not only for traditional models of the plant, but also for promising series - mainline, transport and heavy vehicles.

I would also like to mention the Mir card payment system, which has successfully replaced Visa and MasterCard in the domestic market, and is now expanding its geography and gaining international recognition step by step.

Another example is the St. Petersburg Tractor Plant. His former foreign partner refused to sell engines and carry out their warranty service. Who rescued? Engine builders of Yaroslavl and Tutaev: arranged the supply of their engines. As a result, the production of agricultural machinery at the St. Petersburg Tractor Plant in March-April of this year was a record for the enterprise - it did not decrease, but became a record, increased.

I am sure that there will be more and more such positive practices and success stories.

I repeat, Russia has the personnel, scientific and technological reserves to develop products that are now in high demand, including household and construction equipment, industrial and service equipment.

Today's task is to build up capacities and set up the necessary lines in a short time. And one of the key issues is comfortable conditions for the work of enterprises, as well as the availability of prepared production sites.

I ask the Government to present the key parameters of the new mode of operation of industrial clusters by autumn. What is important here?

The first is funding. Projects launched in such clusters must receive a long-term affordable loan resource for up to ten years and at a rate of no more than seven percent per annum in rubles. We discussed all these issues, including with our economic bloc. We all agree, let's do it.

The second is taxation. In clusters, it is necessary to ensure a low level of conditionally constant taxes, including insurance premiums.

The third is support for production at the starting, early stage, the formation of a package of orders, including the provision of subsidies for the purchase of finished products of such enterprises. The question is not easy, but I think that subsidies will be required. They are needed in order to provide the market. You just need to work it out calmly.

Fourth, simplified administration, including a minimum or complete absence of inspections, as well as the operation of enterprises in a comfortable and easy tax and customs monitoring mode.

Fifth, and perhaps most important, it is necessary to create mechanisms for guaranteed long-term demand for new innovative products that are just entering the market. I would like to draw the attention of the Government: such preferential treatment and the corresponding industrial clusters should start working from January 1, 2023.

What I want to say in this regard. Both new and already operating points of industrial growth should attract small businesses, involve them in their orbit. At the same time, for an entrepreneur, for small organizations, it is important to see the horizon, to understand the prospects.

In this regard, of course, I ask the Government, together with the SME Corporation [Federal Corporation for the Development of Small and Medium Enterprises] and our largest companies, to launch an instrument of long-term agreements between companies with state participation and small and medium-sized businesses. Thus, demand for the products of such enterprises will be guaranteed for years to come, while suppliers will be able to confidently undertake the obligation to create a new or expand existing production for this order.

Let me add that we have already significantly reduced the construction time for industrial facilities and eliminated unnecessary cumbersome procedures, but there are still large reserves here, there is work to be done, there is room to move. Thus, the creation of production buildings from scratch still requires from one and a half to three years, while the acquisition of ready-made premises is constrained by the still high interest rates on loans.

In this regard, so that the domestic business could quickly expand the production of the necessary products, I propose to launch a fundamentally new tool: industrial mortgage. We are talking about preferential long-term loans at a rate of five percent per annum. Enterprises that plan to buy ready-made areas for production will be eligible for such loans. I ask the Government to work out all the details with the Russian banking sector without delay, so that industrial mortgages will start working in full in the near future.

Dear friends!

The speed and scale of changes in the global economy, finance, and international relations is increasing. The shift from globalization to a multipolar growth model is becoming increasingly clear. Undoubtedly, the formation and birth of a new world order is a difficult process. We will still face many challenges, and risks, and factors that are even difficult to predict and predict today.

But it is obvious that the rules for the maintenance of the new world order will be set by strong, sovereign states - those who do not move along the trajectory already outlined by someone. Only strong states and sovereigns can have their say in this world order that is being born again, or are doomed to become or remain a disenfranchised colony.

It is necessary to strive to move forward, change, feel the breath of the times and show national will and determination for this. Russia is entering the coming era as a powerful sovereign country. We will definitely use the new colossal opportunities that time opens up for us, and we will become even stronger.

Thank you for your attention.

Mikhail Simonyan: Thank you, Vladimir Vladimirovich!

I really want to say that in such an exhaustive speech, an exhaustive analysis, we have nothing left to talk about, because you answered all the questions. But questions still remain, and we will definitely get down to them.

And now I will ask Kassym-Jomart Kemelevich [Tokayev] to come to this music stand and share with us his vision of the processes taking place in your country, in our country, in the relations of our countries and in the world.

Thank you.

K.-Zh.Tokayev:  Dear Vladimir Vladimirovich!

Dear forum participants!

I congratulate everyone on such a significant event - the holding of the anniversary, 25th St. Petersburg International Economic Forum. I thank Vladimir Vladimirovich for the invitation and for the warm, cordial welcome in the cultural capital of Russia.

For a quarter of a century, the St. Petersburg Forum has deservedly acquired the status of an authoritative expert platform and has taken its rightful place among other global discussion platforms.

Our meeting is taking place in a special situation – heightened political and economic turbulence. The global turmoil associated with the pandemic and rising geopolitical tensions has led to a new reality. Globalization has been replaced by the era of regionalization with all its advantages and inherent disadvantages. Be that as it may, the process of reformatting traditional economic models and trade routes is accelerating.

The world is changing rapidly, unfortunately, in most cases not for the better. Inflation in many countries is hitting decade-long records, global economic growth is slowing down, and competition for investment and resources is intensifying.

The economic growth was constrained by climate change, increased migration flows, and accelerating technological change. All these processes do not pass by our attention.

Speaking of the new reality, it is important to keep in mind the rapidly changing structure of the world order, the change in seemingly stable vectors of interaction along the East-West, North-South line. It is important for the countries of our region not only to find the right answers to all these challenges, but also to try to make the most of them. Therefore, we will have to consistently realize the full potential of cooperation within the framework of the Eurasian Economic Union. An urgent task is to pair Eurasian integration with the Chinese concept of "One Belt, One Road".

As you know, Kazakhstan is currently undergoing large-scale political and economic reforms. They are aimed at rebooting the state administration and building a fair, new Kazakhstan. Our efforts are focused on ensuring that economic growth has a proportional impact on improving the well-being of citizens. We are focused on the sustainable development of trade and economic relations, the opening of new industries, the creation of conditions for the growth of human capital and the introduction of investments.

As part of a large-scale modernization of the country, new rules of the game are being built in the economy without obvious monopolies and blatant corruption. Our top priority is to support entrepreneurship and improve the business climate in order to maximize investor protection, stability and predictability. We will fully fulfill all our obligations to our traditional partners. Kazakhstan will continue its course towards building an inclusive, just society, eliminating social inequality.

In my opinion, for the sustainable development of all countries in the region, it is necessary to define new horizons for cooperation and form future points of growth for our economies. Along with this, one should always remember the most important task - ensuring international and regional security.

Therefore, further I would like to draw your attention to the following points.

The first, as I said, is to strengthen the potential of the Eurasian Economic Union. This task remains relevant for us. The total volume of the economies of all the states of the union is now more than two trillion dollars - this is a huge market with free movement of goods, capital, services and labor, in any case, it should be so.

Despite the pandemic and geopolitical upheavals, cooperation within the union continues to consistently strengthen. The volume of mutual trade last year reached a maximum for the entire period of the union's functioning and amounted to about $73 billion, which is a third more than the previous year.

Within the framework of this association, Russia has been and remains a key trade and economic partner for Kazakhstan. Last year, the mutual trade between the two countries grew by almost a third and reached more than $24 billion. These are record numbers for us. This year, the positive trend continues. In the first quarter of this year, the volume of trade increased by more than 12 percent.

In my opinion, it would be appropriate and useful to develop a new trade strategy within the framework of the Eurasian Economic Union, taking into account the new reality. Instead of counter-sanctions, which, to be honest, are unlikely to be productive, a more active, I would say, proactive and flexible trade policy should have been pursued with a wide coverage of the markets of Asia and the Middle East. Kazakhstan could play a useful role here as a kind of buffer market.

On the whole, the ultimate success of Eurasian integration largely, if not to a large extent, depends precisely on the effectiveness of our common trade strategy. Kazakhstan and Russia can bring industrial cooperation to a qualitatively new level.

We have a special plan, a program of industrial cooperation in the new conditions. Investors from Russia will be provided with industrial sites with appropriate infrastructure and a favorable investment climate will be created. In principle, this is already being done.

Of particular relevance in the current realities is the full realization of the agricultural potential of our countries. According to the FAO [Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations], Russia and Kazakhstan are world leaders in terms of agricultural land availability. This fact is of particular relevance in the light of the deterioration of global food security. The number of hungry people will rise from 270 million to 323 million this year, according to the United Nations.

Supplying the population with high-quality, safe food remains a paramount task and a factor in maintaining and internal stability.

To create a reliable food system, it is important to introduce innovative solutions and advanced technologies, to reduce food losses.

Approaches to ensuring food security should be developed both at the national levels and within the framework of regional associations, including, of course, the Eurasian Economic Union, taking into account the needs of the interests of all state participants. Without coordinated work, it is difficult to count on achieving the set goals in this extremely important area.

In other words, the fight against exorbitant inflation and food shortages is our common task. Now and in the foreseeable future, there is no more urgent goal for us, because it directly concerns the well-being of our citizens. The potential of our countries makes it possible to consistently and fully supply our markets with the necessary food products, as the President of Russia convincingly said today.

Second. I consider it important to continue the process of expanding trade and economic cooperation with third countries. Kazakhstan, being an active participant in integration processes, invariably favors mutually beneficial cooperation with other international organizations.

On the sidelines of the St. Petersburg forum, as I know, the topic of forming the Greater Eurasian Partnership is being discussed with interest, this is an initiative of the Russian Federation. It is assumed that this concept will be focused, among other things, on the creation of a common space, equal cooperation of regional organizations. Therefore, Kazakhstan maintains a positive attitude towards the process of creating the Greater Eurasian Partnership.

This year Kazakhstan chairs the Commonwealth of Independent States. Its successful experience and many years of functioning in difficult geopolitical conditions clearly prove the effectiveness of multilateral dialogue tools.

I believe that the CIS can become the most suitable base for the implementation of such a megaproject - I mean Greater Eurasia, or the Greater Eurasian Partnership. At the same time, the SCO, ASEAN, the Eurasian Economic Union could become an integral part of the Greater Eurasian space.

In the coming decade, such traditionally friendly countries as China, India, the states of the Middle East, South and Southeast Asia can become major investors in the economies of our region.

China has already become the main economic and foreign trade partner of Kazakhstan. This country has invested more than $22 billion in our economy over the past 15 years. Therefore, deepening multilateral cooperation with China is a very important task for our country.

Not only political issues are relevant, but also, of course, economic aspects. It is necessary, in my opinion, to strengthen direct ties between business structures, to build new transport and logistics corridors. Now, when meeting with Russian representatives and representatives of other interested states, we are giving priority attention to the discussion of precisely these issues.

Joint efforts to create a pool of breakthrough innovative and technological projects, uninterrupted transport and logistics chains, and ultimately the formation of new opportunities for the growth of the economies of our countries look promising.

Third. Kazakhstan has consistently supported international efforts to combat climate change. We plan to consistently expand opportunities for the growth of "green" investments and the implementation of relevant projects. Environmental problems are global in nature and have affected almost all countries of the world, including Kazakhstan.

Last year, due to low rainfall and shallow water on the rivers, many of our farmers were seriously affected by the drought, and the transboundary Ural River is in critical condition - on our territory it is called Zhaiyk.

I believe that such long-term challenges to the sustainable development of our states should be addressed jointly. I think that we should seriously consider the prospects for introducing the principles of a circular economy, the so-called circular economy. We are working to reduce the energy intensity of the gross domestic product, expand the renewable energy sector and reduce transit losses in this industry.

The similarity of economies, industrial infrastructure ties between the two countries, and geography itself dictate the need for joint efforts in this strategically important area as well. I hope that together we will be able to develop effective approaches and concrete measures for significant progress in this direction.

Fourth, a reliable source of economic growth. Of course, this is high-quality human capital and a constructive intercultural dialogue. Within the framework of the International Decade for the Rapprochement of Cultures proclaimed by the United Nations, we will continue the policy of preserving the cultural diversity of our country and promoting inter-civilizational dialogue at the international level.

In September of this year, the next congress of leaders of world and traditional religions will be held in our capital. We welcome the participation of religious figures from Russia in this forum, almost all of them have confirmed their participation.

Kazakhstan is actively reformatting the system of higher education with the participation of leading foreign universities, including Russian ones. Deepening international academic ties is of particular importance in terms of strengthening the traditions of Kazakh-Russian cooperation.

I am sure that the successful implementation of a number of joint educational and cultural initiatives will make a significant contribution to the progressive economic development of our countries.

Dear forum participants!

Kazakhstan proceeds from a firm understanding that Eurasia is our common home, and the states of our continent should closely cooperate in a single community. We are convinced that building a peaceful, stable and economically strong Eurasia will be a powerful factor in sustainable development and inclusive growth on a global scale.

I am sure that such an authoritative discussion platform, which brings together very high-class experts, has great potential for finding productive ideas aimed at normalizing the international situation and returning the world economy to positive dynamics.

Thank you for your attention.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Thank you very much, Kassym-Jomart Kemelevich.

Eurasia is indeed our common home. I really want this house to be safe and prosperous with God's help and common efforts.

And now we turn to Africa. We have a video message from Egyptian President Abdelfattah Sisi. Please, can you run it on the screens? Thank you.

A. Sisi (as translated) : In the  name of Allah, the Gracious and the Merciful!

Mr President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin! Ladies and Gentlemen! Dear forum participants!

First of all, let me congratulate His Excellency President Putin on the occasion of the anniversary forum, which since its first session in 1997 has become an important platform for interaction of the business community and an outstanding economic event, during which the main economic problems facing emerging markets and all the rest of the world.

Ladies and Gentlemen!

The Arab Republic of Egypt is participating in the 25th anniversary forum as a guest country, which indicates the special level of Russian-Egyptian economic relations that have developed over the past few years.

This year the forum is taking place in the face of unprecedented political and economic challenges of a strategic nature. We hope that the results of the forum will facilitate the search for effective solutions to existing problems and reduce the negative impact and negative consequences of the global economic crisis that has engulfed many countries of the world, primarily the economies of developing countries. At the same time, it is necessary to take into account the concerns and interests of all countries, which will meet the requirements for ensuring the security and well-being of peoples and contribute to the achievement of long-term mutual understanding on political issues.

All this will create favorable conditions for global economic growth, which is important in the post-COVID period, given that the pandemic has led to numerous casualties and the expenditure of huge funds and resources, forcing us to make every effort to avoid a slowdown in economic development.

Ladies and Gentlemen!

Let me take this opportunity to emphasize that Egypt is proud of its historical and strong friendship with the Russian Federation and the concrete results of the development of these relations over the past years in various vital sectors of the economy in the interests of increasing the well-being of our peoples.

In recent years, the Arab Republic of Egypt and the Russian Federation have participated in the implementation of major ambitious projects, which is in line with the desire of our peoples to achieve further economic progress.

Perhaps the most important of these projects is the construction of the El Dabaa nuclear power plant, which is the implementation of Egypt's state strategy for the implementation of national projects using new renewable energy sources.

Such projects also include the creation of a Russian industrial zone within the economic zone of the Suez Canal. This project is intended to be an important indicator of industrial growth on the African continent.

Another example of cooperation between our countries is the development of the Egyptian railway network and other joint projects that meet the interests of both our countries.

Ladies and Gentlemen!

It's no secret that the extremely important events that have taken place in Egypt over the past decade have had a significant impact on the overall economic situation in our country. The Egyptian people got out of the crisis thanks to the formulation of a clear concept of development, the basis of which was investment, primarily in human capital, that is, in ordinary Egyptians, which was intended to contribute to the development of their creative capabilities.

On this basis, Egypt developed Concept 2030: it is a long-term state strategy for the implementation of the principles and objectives of sustainable socio-economic development and environmental protection.

Based on this concept, the Egyptian government has begun to modernize the legal framework in order to attract foreign investment in the country's economy. As a result, Egypt ranked first among African countries that receive foreign investment. Egypt has also become one of the few countries in the world able to achieve an impressive growth rate of 3.3 percent in 2021, despite the negative impact of the coronavirus pandemic on the global economy. We currently forecast national economic growth of 5.5 percent for the current fiscal year. In addition, the country's non-oil exports rose to $32 billion.

Egypt has also made some progress in implementing a strategy to increase domestic capacity and implement giant agricultural projects, including by expanding agricultural area by two million feddans.

In addition, large-scale projects in the field of transport and communications are being implemented in the country, thousands of kilometers of new roads are being built, and the country's transport system is developing. Among the new projects in this area is the project of a high-speed train that connects the coast of the Red and Mediterranean Seas. This project is designed to expand international trade routes.

Added to this are a number of gigantic industrial projects, as well as many of the green energy projects that have been carried out in Egypt lately at an accelerated pace.

Despite the above steps, we have recently faced an economic crisis provoked by the coronavirus pandemic, the consequences of which the whole world is gradually overcoming. But at the same time, another economic crisis broke out, which negatively affected the growth rates and budgets of a number of countries. As a result, fuel prices rose, the national currency also depreciated against hard currency, supply chains were disrupted, a food crisis began, disruptions in civil aviation and other areas of the Egyptian economy, and above all tourism and insurance.

Countering this crisis that has engulfed the whole world requires joint action by the international community, coordination and cooperation of countries in order to normalize the situation. This is especially true for maritime navigation, the restoration of food supply chains, grains, and oilseeds.

It is also necessary to calm down and stabilize the situation in the world, to reduce the consequences of the economic crisis for those peoples who are striving for peace and development.

I would like to take this opportunity and call on all companies participating in the forum to use the huge opportunities that investments in all spheres of the Egyptian economy can open up for them.

Before finishing my speech, I would like to convey my greetings to the people of St. Petersburg - the city of fighters, the city of heroes, which is also a symbol of cultural development, a symbol of openness to the outside world.

In conclusion, I would like to once again thank His Excellency President of Russia Vladimir Putin for his kind invitation extended to Egypt to take part in this forum as a guest country.

I would like to wish success and good luck to the forum participants, and constructive, successful cooperation, prosperity and progress to all fraternal countries.

I pray the Almighty to send down peace and stability throughout the world, prevent wars, the socio-economic consequences of conflicts, use the language of dialogue, the language of mutual understanding and peaceful coexistence.

Thank you for your attention.

Mikhail Simonyan: Thank you, Mr. President of Egypt. I think that the people of St. Petersburg and Leningrad are now especially pleased about such kind words addressed to St. Petersburg.

We have a little time left before our discussion begins. As they say, expectation exacerbates desire.

It remains for us to listen to the video message of Chinese President Xi Jinping. Please.

Xi Jinping (retranslated) : Dear President Putin! Ladies and Gentlemen! Friends!

I am glad to have the opportunity, the kind invitation of President Putin, to address the participants of the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum, which I visited three years ago.

In February of this year, President Putin visited China and attended the opening ceremony of the Winter Olympics in Beijing. He and I had a thorough exchange of views, as a result of which we reached an important agreement on expanding all-round practical cooperation and implementing the concept of global governance through joint consultations, joint participation and sharing.

Now cooperation between China and Russia in all areas is developing along an upward trajectory. The trade turnover for the first five months of this year reached 65 billion 800 million US dollars. At the end of the year, you can count on new records. This testifies to the high resistance to stress and the internal potential of Chinese-Russian cooperation.

With the ongoing dramatic changes and coronavirus infection, the world is entering a new period of turbulence and transformation. There is a negative trend of anti-globalism, a growing gap between the South and the North, weakening drivers of development cooperation, which can plunge the unevenly recovering world economy into a deep recession and pose unprecedented challenges to the implementation of the UN 2030 sustainable development agenda.

As the ancient Chinese proverb says, a smart person, even in a favorable position, keeps in mind the possible harm, and sees potential opportunities in a disadvantageous position. Danger and opportunity always coexist. Overcoming the danger, you will get the opportunity. Strength is in confidence. The more difficulties, the more important confidence.

Last year, at the UN General Assembly, I put forward an initiative on global development, which met with a positive reaction and support from a number of international organizations, including the UN, and about a hundred countries.

At the moment, the international community is more than ever interested in fair, sustainable and secure development. It is important to seize opportunities, resist challenges, advance the implementation of the global development initiative and together build a beautiful future of peace and prosperity.

First, create favorable conditions for development. Adhere to true multilateralism, respect and support the development path of each country according to its own realities, build an open world economy, increase the representativeness and voice of emerging market and developing countries in global economic governance, promote balanced, harmonious and inclusive development of the whole world .

Second, development partnerships need to be strengthened. It is important to deepen cooperation in the South-North and South-South format, integrate resources, platforms, a network of partners, increase development assistance, join efforts to bridge the gap between countries in their development.

Third, it is necessary to promote economic globalization. It is necessary to strengthen the coordination of national development policies and the harmonization of international regulations and standards, abandon the practice of disconnection and disruption of supplies, unilateral sanctions and maximum pressure, eliminate trade barriers, ensure the stability of the global value chain, jointly cope with the worsening food and energy crisis in order to restore world economy.

Fourth, it is necessary to stimulate development with a focus on innovation. It is necessary to unleash the potential of innovative growth, improve the relevant rules and mechanisms, remove barriers to the free movement of innovation elements, increase cooperation exchanges, promote in-depth integration of scientific and technological innovations and various sectors of the economy, and ensure universal access to the latest innovations.

Ladies and Gentlemen! Friends!

The Chinese economy still has great resilience and potential, and demonstrates long-term development momentum. We are full of confidence in its future. China will continue high-quality development, unwaveringly expand high-level openness, and promote the highly effective joint implementation of the Belt and Road Initiative.

Together with Russia and other partners, we are ready to open development prospects and take advantage of growth opportunities in order to make a worthy contribution to deepening global cooperation for development and the formation of a community with a common destiny for mankind.

Thank you for your attention.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman!

It is never superfluous to join Chinese wisdom and learn some new Chinese wisdom, especially now, when, perhaps, it is Chinese wisdom that will be useful to the whole world.

Vladimir Vladimirovich, I wanted to show you one thing, I took it with me specially. This is such a juice, it used to be all colored - no matter what kind of juice, you can’t even see what brand is here, although it is a popular brand. And now, you see, a small picture, the rest is white. Why? And it's massive now.

Because the paint has run out. The manufacturer of paint for such packages left Russia, and now he has also announced that the manufacturer of the packages themselves is also leaving. I bought this two weeks ago, and now it won't be there soon. And it will turn out that we will have to bottle, apparently, into bottles or into three-liter jars, as in my childhood, if it does not turn out that we do not produce bottles either.

There are very different views on this. You touched on this issue today. Some of those who arrived - a significant part, probably most of the people who are now in this hall - they came here on the Sapsan. Some people tell us: “We will replace the peregrine falcons with Chinese ones, they are even better,” Siemens left. Others say: "Yes, we will learn and do it ourselves." Let me remind you that we have our own high-speed trains - ER200, I think they were called, they were launched in 1984. I was four years old, I didn’t go to school yet, and we already had high-speed trains - but no more. It's sad.

And there are people who say that, no, we won’t be able to replace it, that we will have Sapsanov for a couple of years and then we will simply give up high-speed traffic, that is, we will take a step back from the point of view of what we are used to. And so on for everyone, in all respects: phones, computers, everything we are used to. And if we have to give it up, it's some very sad, I would say heartbreaking, sad plan.

Maybe there is another plan?

Vladimir Putin:  When making any decision, you should always single out the main thing. What is important for us? To be independent, independent, sovereign and ensure development for the future, both now and for future generations? Or have a package today?

If we do not have sovereignty, in the near future we will buy everything and will only produce oil, gas, hemp, saddles and sell round timber abroad.

It's unavoidable. I already spoke about this in my speech: only sovereign countries can count on a sovereign future. But this does not mean that today we must plunge into a situation where we must go back 30, 40, 50 years ago.

As for the packaging. I don't think that this is such a complicated thing that our partners from other countries, who will be happy to occupy this market sooner or later, will not be able to replace us, or we will not be able to do it ourselves.

M. Simonyan:  You don't see it, but Kassym-Jomart Kemelevich shakes his head: they'll probably be able to replace him.

K.-Zh.Tokayev: Of course, this is not a problem.

Vladimir Putin:  Of course, we can replace them.

That is not the question at all. We talk all the time about import substitution. When I was speaking, I also said - I'll just add two words here so as not to take up much time answering only one question.

The question is not about import substitution - the question is to form our own opportunities based on the development of education and science in new promising engineering schools. After all, packaging and other such things, even phones and smartphones, will always be given to us, but we have never been given and will not be given critical technologies. After all, this was not given before, despite our cloudless relations with our Western partners in previous decades. This is the same problem.

And when we start to defend our rights, they immediately screw in some kind of sanctions and restrictions - this is the whole problem. So we need to set ourselves up for that and be able to replicate critical technologies based on what I've said. And on this basis, we will always be able to reproduce the goods you mentioned: packages, phones, and smartphones. If we understand this and tune in to solving fundamental problems, then we will solve all other things quite calmly.

I repeat once again: others will come and will come to this place – those who produce this packaging, who produce the paint. Yes, and we are also starting to produce paint, and other consumer goods, and goods related to industrial use in the broadest sense of the word. Yes, we can do everything - here I just have no doubts.

Yes, something will be lost, something will be restored, something will be made on a new basis, on a much more perfect one, as it has happened so far. Therefore, if we are talking about import substitution, we will replace something, but something had to be done on a completely new, promising base of our own production.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Thank you. Would you like to add, Mr. President?

K.-Zh.Tokayev:  I think that everything is clear here, and judging by the speech, a very interesting speech by Vladimir Vladimirovich, one can understand that he is currently speaking, so to speak, in terms of historical perspective.

Mikhail Simonyan:  As always.

K.-Zh.Tokaev:  And here, of course, there is no time for juice bags.

Indeed, this is a small problem, a holy place is never empty: others will come who will produce no worse than the previous juice bags, local entrepreneurs will appear.

It's about something completely different. And, in particular, I spoke in my speech about the importance of Eurasian cooperation, about the importance of joining efforts to solve completely unexpected problems. I think that we will achieve the desired result along this path.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Thank you.

I just wanted to ask you about the Eurasian Economic Union in continuation of your speech. You spoke a lot about the need to strengthen ties within the EurAsEC. We certainly support all this, we believe in it. But will we all be allowed to strengthen these ties?

It is clear that in this case Russia is already, how to put it mildly, not up to listening to someone's pressure, and we have never listened to it, but there are other countries in the Eurasian Economic Union. Your country is certainly under pressure, you personally are certainly being pressured. We can only guess about it - maybe you will share it with us. Other countries are threatened with secondary sanctions and so on. Will we succeed, taking into account the pressure factor? Not a factor of our good will, but a factor of their evil will?

K.-Zh.Tokayev:  As for Kazakhstan, I would not say that there is direct pressure on our country. Indeed, this is a matter of negotiation. Sanctions exist, we take these sanctions into account, of course, we take them into account in our trade and economic strategy. But at the same time, there are obligations to Kazakhstan related to our previous agreements with the Russian Federation. Moreover, I said in my speech that geography itself, not to mention history, implies that we must be together and work together in very specific, I would say, conditions. I mentioned the existence of a special program of industrial cooperation between our countries in the new realities. That is, we will work.

I believe that the Eurasian Economic Union, despite all the difficulties, has a future. Nevertheless, the countries that have found it possible to enter this union together constitute a significant economic force and potential. But here, of course, we can’t get ahead of ourselves, in no case should we engage in hatred, because real difficulties nevertheless exist, this is an objective reality.

Therefore, it is in the process of negotiations, finding mutually acceptable solutions that the essence of our future work lies. This is a very difficult job, as I have said before, to find exactly mutually acceptable solutions, to take into account each other's interests.

Yes, within the framework of the Eurasian Economic Union we have disputes, since we meet not only in an open format, but there is also a closed part.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Vladimir Vladimirovich is smiling, apparently he understands what you are talking about.

K.-Zh.Tokayev:  But in the overwhelming majority of cases, we find a solution. This makes me happy.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Thank you.

I wish you and all of us the best of luck in finding these solutions as quickly as possible.

Vladimir Putin:  My colleague said that there are disputes. They are always with us, in the closed part we always argue. But we always treat each other with respect and always look for and find compromises, which is extremely important.

You mentioned pressure from outside. Kassym-Jomart Kemelevich spoke about the volume of our trade. But, no matter how someone pushes from the outside, it is impossible to cancel it - 24 billion dollars in turnover last year, and in the first four months - more than 12 billion. If things go on like this, count how much it will be. There will be more…

M. Simonyan:  36.

Vladimir Putin:  36, maybe 40 will do. It cannot be reversed under any pressure. Hundreds and thousands of jobs and the welfare of millions of people depend on it. How do you cancel it?

This is the same as canceling... Now they banned it, as I already said in my speech, they first imposed sanctions on our fertilizers, then the Americans canceled it, they didn’t impose sanctions on food at all. Everyone wants to eat, the whole world. So what are the sanctions?

And the fact that they tried to carry out such a blitzkrieg against our economy is clear that it did not work out. As Mark Twain said, "The rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated." The same is true for the blitzkrieg concerning Russia.

As for the Eurasian Economic Community, our trade volume with all countries is constantly growing, and it is growing faster among ourselves than with third countries, although it is growing with third countries as well. That is, the association itself does not prevent the EurAsEC countries from maintaining relations with third countries. This is what is happening, and it is very good.

A colleague said about Chinese investments, but Russian investments in the economy of Kazakhstan - seven billion dollars!

Mikhail Simonyan:  And there are 20 Chinese, as Mr. President told us. Still more.

Vladimir Putin:  But one and a half billion people still live there, while we have 146 [million], there is a difference. But even the seven billion invested in specific industries in Kazakhstan are certainly of great importance. Moreover, we have a very rich program of industrial cooperation - that's what's important. And not only cooperation inherited from the Soviet Union, but also developing again on a new technological basis. It is very important.

How do you cancel it? This cannot be done simply, no matter how anyone would like. Therefore, yes, problems are being created, but they will certainly be overcome.

M. Simonyan:  Developing the theme of “I want to eat”, you know, a very cynical joke appeared, not even a joke, but just an exclamation in Moscow, several times I have already heard from different people: all hope for hunger. What is meant? This means that now the famine will begin, and then they will come to their senses: the sanctions will be lifted, and in general they will be friends with us, because they realize that it is impossible not to be friends with us.

Do you think this forecast is realistic? I would not want it to be through hunger, but still.

Vladimir Putin:  I have already said in my speech that the situation on the world food markets is getting worse, and I would like to emphasize once again that it is not at all our fault. It all started with rampant inflation and pumping money into the world's major economies in Europe and North America. It all started with this, they did everything with their own hands, but then, of course, they aggravated it with sanctions against Russia. This refers primarily to logistics, financial services, insurance, and so on.

We would very much not want people to suffer from hunger in some countries. I recently met with representatives of the African Union. I told them and I want to confirm once again: we will do everything in our power to unconditionally ensure the interests of our regular customers – buyers of our grain. By the way, we have been supplying wheat to Kazakhstan in recent years and will do so this year. I have already said this figure: we will have 50 million [tons] of grain during this season, from this summer to next summer. This is a very serious volume. We continue to lead the world in wheat sales. We are now number one in the world in wheat sales.

But I want to say this: we are not at all happy that some negative consequences may occur for some countries, and we do not count on this. We hope that common sense will nevertheless prevail, that the situation in world affairs will calm down, everyone will begin to treat each other's interests with respect, and we will function normally.

Incidentally, I have no doubt that time will pass and many of our partners from at least European countries will return to the Russian market and work here with pleasure. I don't have any doubts about it. Life will make you just do it. And we will not interfere with them, we are open to the whole world, I said this. But you need to realize that you need to treat each other with respect.

Mikhail Simonyan:  God forbid.

We have just been welcomed so warmly by the President of the People's Republic of China. Regarding China, there are also several opposing opinions, including among people who are knowledgeable and significant and who deal with this issue.

Some say no, China is being cautious, it will not extend its hand to us so directly, because this could harm its own interests. Examples are given that, for example, Huawei stores are already closing in Moscow.

Others say: of course not, and vice versa, cooperation with Russia is China's most fundamental interests, because a multipolar world is also China's fundamental interests. And a world in which Russia is somehow strangled, or at least significantly weakened, has less and less chance of the very multipolarity that many people, primarily China, like us, are very fond of.

How do you assess what we actually have and will have with China?

Vladimir Putin:  You know, multipolarity is not attractive, it is inevitable. And when I said that someone is trying to freeze international relations at the level of thirty years ago, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, I said that people do not understand this, that the movement is inevitable. New centers of power are emerging, powerful, promising, dynamic. And some people don't like it. Including do not like the growth of China's power. Let me remind you that China has become the number one economy in the world in terms of the size of its economy, in terms of purchasing power. It's a fact, it's a statistic. Of course, GDP per capita, per one and a half billion people, is much lower there than in the United States or in European countries, but in terms of economic volume it is number one.

Taking into account the specifics of the Chinese economy, this means that the Chinese leadership can direct huge resources to promising areas of development, including science, education, and culture. This is very important, it creates huge prospects for the development of the country.

Same India. There are also about one and a half billion people, the market basis for the development of the economy. It develops very intensively. Prime Minister Modi is a very progressive person, very progressive, looking to the future. Other countries in Asia, take Indonesia - more than 300 million people, by the way, the largest country in the world in terms of the number of Muslim population.

African countries are developing actively. Latin America is developing at a very fast pace. Yes, there are problems there. But where are they not? Emerging markets, they are, but the potential is colossal, simply colossal, and, of course, it is impossible not to notice this.

Therefore, the multipolarity of the world is inevitable, and those who cling to their imaginary global leadership at all costs are making a colossal mistake. This is a mistake that will cost them dearly, I have no doubts. This is not a threat at all, it will simply happen in fact.

As for the People's Republic of China and our relations with China, with Asian countries in general, with China in particular, we started to build them not in connection with the latest events - the events of recent years or months. We have been doing this and are doing it, because in Asia and in China, the creation of new world centers of development has become quite obvious.

Everyone understands it, everyone sees it and knows it. China's GDP growth look how much. Yes, it’s a little bit now… It was seven or more percent, now it’s five, it doesn’t matter, this adjustment is inevitable, everything is clear. But they are absolute leaders, you understand?

US GDP growth in recent years - how much was it? 1.7, in my opinion, GDP. In the eurozone, in my opinion, even less. And in Asia - five or more. That's all for you, trends, you know, there are such trends in the world. And we have been building our relations accordingly for many years.

Our trade turnover is 140 billion and will grow, and this year it will probably be more, it will be a record. Not because the current political situation forces us to do this, no, but because this is an objective picture of the world in this way. It is interesting and beneficial for us to cooperate with China, especially since we have very stable and trusting relations politically. We have excellent personal friendly relations with President Xi Jinping in the fullest sense of the word. This creates a good atmosphere for building interstate ties. But this does not mean at all that China should play along with us in everything or accompany us in some way, and we do not need this.

There are public interests. The Chinese leadership, just like us, primarily proceeds from its national interests, but they do not conflict with each other, that's the whole point. If any questions arise, they probably always arise at the level of departments in the course of specific work, then the nature and quality of interstate relations allows us to always find solutions. I am sure it will continue to be so.

Mikhail Simonyan:  You have spoken now and before, you have been talking a lot about this over the past few years, about freedom of entrepreneurial activity. There were even statements from you and from the Government that in general this is what we must continue to develop and due to which we must withstand, withstand this burden or the impact of truly incredible sanctions that were designed to destroy us.

The President of Kazakhstan, Kassym-Jomart Kemelevich, also spoke about this quite recently. Let me quote you, you said the following: "In the new, just Kazakhstan, there should be no place for police arbitrariness, incompetent prosecutors and biased judges." I do not know how things are with this in Kazakhstan, I hope that you will now tell us about this too.

Here, Vladimir Vladimirovich, I will probably upset you, things are not very good with this. You talk about it all the time, but now people will leave the hall, go to discuss it, go to smoke and say: again the boss said about it, and again they will not hear him. Because the number of arrests in pre-trial detention centers for business reasons does not change, according to some reports, it is growing, although you have repeatedly said not to do this. You know, it’s as if we have some kind of deep anti-state in our state, like in America’s deep state, and we have some kind of antistate, to which you can’t decree, and the law doesn’t draw. This is very sad.

Maybe it can be somehow more rigidly eradicated? For example, it is generally legal to cancel these landings in a pre-trial detention center. I think many will agree that a few dozen who evaded criminal prosecution in this way will cause less harm to our country than this system does harm, in which it is not society that is protected in this way, but the interests of certain dishonest people.

Vladimir Putin:  This is a delicate sphere, I just spoke about it. You are now speaking from the outside and in the interests of the business community, and here they are in the majority. I understand these concerns. That's what I was talking about, that's why I was talking about it. But there is another side, namely: the interests of society, ordinary citizens who are also watching, and if they see that some illegal and unlawful actions are being committed by the business community, then, of course, millions of people ask themselves: what is the state looking at? , why don't they protect us, ordinary citizens? Therefore, finding the right balance here is not so easy.

By the way, you just mentioned that we have some kind of pressure. I want to bring us back to the realities of today. And our neighbors don't? They stole from our entrepreneurs, took away their property, just out of the blue, punishing them for their activities, for their work in Russia. This is some nonsense. Where are these principles of respect for the inviolability of private property? Sanctions often affect people, and property is taken from people who have nothing to do with the state at all, have nothing to do with the decisions made by the political leadership of the country. These are just individuals who honestly worked, did nothing illegal either in our country or abroad - their property was taken away from them. What is this? This generally goes beyond all sorts of boundaries, not just permitted, even common sense. As a matter of fact, they are sawing the branch they were sitting on, because, frankly speaking, many people connected with the economies of the West, to a certain extent, were not the conductor of the interests of the West, but, in any case, were supporters of the development of relations. But when everything was taken away from them, of course, what kind of supporters are they from now on? They will say: fie on you!

Mikhail Simonyan:  What year are you? In 2004, they said: you are tormented by swallowing dust.

Vladimir Putin:  Well, yes, running from office to office and defending your rights. This is what happened, unfortunately.

But what am I talking about? That nothing of the sort is happening here. Yes, of course, there are still problems, otherwise I would not talk about it. Faced with today's difficulties caused by external pressure, of course, I constantly say and repeat this: we can respond effectively only by increasing the space of freedom for citizens in general and for business in particular. But this also applies to the activities of law enforcement agencies. She also needs improvement. Therefore, the number of cases that have not been brought to trial speaks most clearly of this. If cases were initiated, but not brought to trial, what does this mean? About what, most likely, they were excited to put pressure on the business. Is there such a problem? Of course there is. Therefore, the most important thing here is not to hide from this, the most important thing is not to turn a blind eye to this, we are not going to do this, but we are going to, on the contrary, carefully, without violating the interests of society as a whole, de-bureaucratize the system, force the law enforcement sector to work for the interests of the whole society, including the business community, on which, of course, a lot depends today and which has shown its maturity, its patriotism, and works effectively. These packaging and paints, I assure you, will be made, including through the efforts of representatives of the Russian business community. Understanding this, the state, of course, will do everything in its power to support such people. And we will build the work of law enforcement agencies in this way. Today, a lot depends on and which has shown its maturity, its patriotism, and works effectively. These packaging and paints, I assure you, will be made, including through the efforts of representatives of the Russian business community. Understanding this, the state, of course, will do everything in its power to support such people. And we will build the work of law enforcement agencies in this way. Today, a lot depends on and which has shown its maturity, its patriotism, and works effectively. These packaging and paints, I assure you, will be made, including through the efforts of representatives of the Russian business community. Understanding this, the state, of course, will do everything in its power to support such people. And we will build the work of law enforcement agencies in this way.

But, I repeat once again, and there, of course, there are unscrupulous people. Well, they don't exist, do they? Of course there is. Look at the number of landings among law enforcement officers, unscrupulous law enforcement officers. This also has a place to be, and there is also work to clean up their ranks.

But it is also necessary to polish the regulatory framework in such a way that there will not automatically be any excessive pressure. This is what we will be working on. I assure you we understand this and will do so consistently.

As for Kazakhstan, the incumbent President, we discussed these issues with him many times, I know that he also pays great attention to this. It is no coincidence that, although, to be honest, I do not really welcome this, but, say, in the field of IT technologies, many specialists travel from Russia to Kazakhstan with pleasure, they work there today, because the conditions are good. We will follow the example of Kazakhstan in this regard.

Mikhail Simonyan: Bring  it back.

K.-Zh.Tokayev:  Thank you for such a compliment.

Indeed, we are creating the most favorable work opportunities for our Russian colleagues and friends who come to work with us. I guess this is not a permanent occurrence. Perhaps in time they will return to their homeland, to Russia, but, in any case, this is where we should be together. And, of course, it is absolutely impossible to reject people who, for one reason or another, decided to work in our country.

Answering your question regarding the reform of the law enforcement system, here I fully agree with Vladimir Vladimirovich that this is a very difficult job, a very difficult problem. It is impossible to solve this problem overnight, but, in any case, we must try to do it, because people see injustice. This breeds social depression.

That is why I decided to create a special commission that will deal with the return of state property, assets that were illegally privatized using administrative and political resources.

In addition, I have created a commission headed by the Prosecutor General, which will deal with the return of financial resources illegally exported abroad. I understand that this is a difficult job, you need to go through a large number of procedures. But nevertheless, again, this work needs to be done.

As for the reform of the law enforcement system, in September I will announce a new package of reforms related to the reformatting of the judicial system. This is a very urgent problem, for Kazakhstan, anyway.

The reform of the police service is currently being carried out, the so-called service model, the three-tier model. This reform is not without difficulties. However, I believe that we will eventually succeed. The main thing is the presence of political will and, of course, the support of the citizens of the country. If citizens, our society as a whole, demand this reform and support it, then I think that we will achieve ultimate success. Because, of course, those models that existed before may have justified their purpose in the past, but now new approaches are needed.

We had vacillations in the field of the law enforcement system, during the reforms: either we went into humanization, used the experience of European countries, then we went towards tightening - that is, there was no constant constant and no clear understanding of what we want in the end.

Mikhail Simonyan:  And now where?

K.-Zh.Tokayev:  Now we have the so-called golden mean, which is clearly based on the needs of our citizens who want to see reliable protection and, most importantly, incorruptible people in the person of the police.

Again, this is a difficult task. Understand that I am not going to declare great ideas and then immediately forget about them. But this has to be done.

As for China, Vladimir Vladimirovich talked about this country in a very interesting way. I myself am a Sinologist by profession and I am well aware of this wisdom that President Xi Jinping gave today, that in every opportunity there is a danger, in every unfavorable danger there is an opportunity, and all together this is called a crisis. The word "crisis" consists of two hieroglyphs, I still remember how they are written: the first hieroglyph is a danger, the second hieroglyph is an opportunity. In every crisis there is danger, but there are also opportunities. I think we should start from that.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Thank you, this is very interesting.

K.-Zh.Tokayev:  By the way, you mentioned Huawei. I spent almost eight years in China, and I had the opportunity to visit this company at the very beginning of its activities in the Haidian Xu area, I still remember when this company was located in three rooms. Then, of course, no one believed that it would later become a global company, but it happened.

What is the success of China, in my opinion? Firstly, they managed to build a very pragmatic concept, this was done by Deng Xiaoping, that is, he imposed the capitalist mode of production on a socialist base and called it socialism with Chinese characteristics. This is the first.

Secondly, of course, they understood the importance of high technology in a timely manner, and this is where they have made great strides. We moved towards this gradually: at first we produced essential goods, sold them abroad, earned money, brought them to China, this money was invested in the development of technologies, including the acquisition of these technologies in various ways abroad, as Trump, the former President, spoke about United States of America, was offended by the Chinese. But in fact, they achieved great success precisely in the technological sphere and set the task at the last party congress to turn the whole country into a cyberpower. I think this is where the secret of their success lies - the right choice of priority.

Vladimir Putin:  See how? You spoke about protecting the interests of entrepreneurs and the business community.

Mikhail Simonyan:  You first said that, Vladimir Vladimirovich, there, at the music stand.

Vladimir Putin:  Good. My Kazakh colleague was just talking about the return of capital illegally exported abroad. They took them out illegally, and now the state is taking them back. Our entrepreneurs, many of them, in any case, legally took their capital abroad, they have been robbed there now, do you understand? So what is the conclusion? What I said in my speech: you need to invest at home, in your native country. And our task is to ensure the safety of these investments. We will do so.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Do you remember, it seems that in response to the Poles you said a long time ago: you need to think about the house, about the house.

Vladimir Vladimirovich, when you say “Is it better there?”, you don't think that someone here thinks that it's better there. It seems to me that now only a clinical idiot or a deliberate hypocrite can believe that the very values ​​​​and the very principles that we were fed and fed to us as the only possible ones are practiced there: the right to speak, the right to property. I say this as the editor-in-chief of RT and Sputnik, which they closed in one day. And today they approved the extradition of Assange, who will be imprisoned in America for 175 years, and he will die in prison.

It’s hard for me to talk about this, this is our former employee, he led the program for us, and in general he is a great journalist. He will be imprisoned for his journalistic activities. So what is the right of ownership? There, with elementary rights simply to life and freedom of speech, everything turned out to be completely different from what we believed in the 90s. But we are not there, we are here.

Concluding this topic, I want to ask you about the administrative guillotine. Remember, even the Medvedev government launched this thing? As a result, we have administrations, there are many of them, but there is no guillotine. But the rules that guide many departments that come with checks were often written back in the 60s, in the 70s, often simply irrelevant, they can no longer be enforced. That is, at one time, probably, it was really important: it protected the rights of the consumer, anyone, an ordinary person, what you are talking about, this is certainly important. Because it’s also impossible not to follow everything, we will have a solid “Winter Cherry” with us, God forbid, everything will burn and so on, there are also a lot of dishonest people.

But it seems to me that it is necessary to put things in order with these rules. You are a good surgeon, Vladimir Vladimirovich, everyone knows this. When will the hand reach this scalpel?

I'll give you an example. We had 33 checks last year, despite all these bans, 33. And you don’t know what they come up with, just laugh or cry. I'm not complaining, but to the fact that, you know, how they come to people.

Vladimir Putin:  If it were not for this administrative guillotine, which Dmitry Anatolyevich Medvedev spoke about when he was President, you would have had not 33 checks, but 133.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Very likely. I willingly believe.

Vladimir Putin:  It would be so. Therefore, after all, this guillotine works. A huge number, thousands of obsolete rules have been canceled, here, Margarita, you are wrong, they have really been canceled and do not work. I'm sure if we gave the business people in the room a chance to say this, they would come up with a confirmation of what I just said.

But at the same time, many people would support you, which, indeed, is not all done in this regard. But that is precisely why I said today that all checks should be abolished altogether, no more running around with checks, but only risk-oriented checks. In other words, inspection organizations should act only where their activities are related to ensuring the life and health of citizens, and do everything else remotely, monitor, and create conditions so that the business community does not try to violate anything. All this turned out to be possible. Therefore, a lot has been done on this path, but we do not stop and go further.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Thank you.

The whole world was waiting for our torn to shreds economy - not the whole world, but that part of the world, which, in fact, is a minority. Let me remind you that 83 percent of the human population lives in countries that support us, or at least do not join the sanctions.

So, don't wait. This fabric, from which we are sewn, our economy is sewn, turned out to be stronger and too tough for them, too, and we all watched with great joy the virtually lightning-fast steps of the Government.

I scolded the administrative guillotine and so on, but it is impossible not to praise how it was done, especially at first, when, indeed, it was impossible to imagine that we would not have such a jump in inflation, which we were promised, that there would be no dollar at 200 when they closed the sky, and our Ministry of Transport the next day closed it to them - with lightning speed.

That is, there is a feeling that everything works, God willing, more or less at the limit of possibilities, in a good sense of the word. That is, there is nothing that could, but sluggishness, but our some kind of chance. There is no such feeling at all.

But the question is: hasn't the time come, perhaps, to look at the system itself in a different way? What I mean. You spoke so interestingly today that it is important not just to replace imports, it is important to do something new so that they can catch up with us later. This applies to technology, if I understand you correctly, production, industry. But perhaps this also applies to the economic model as such?

Look, here is the market, the market. All the years we have been told about the market and capitalism, but now they are beginning to look at it differently. Today, at the VEB session, they talked about the fact that capitalism in the “grabbing” sense of the word has become obsolete and entrepreneurs should treat the place where they live differently, think about their home.

There is another category of people, experts who say that, oddly enough, it’s time for the state to interfere more in economic processes, because the same Elon Musk would not have become Elon Musk if he were just a free entrepreneur. He lives on orders from the Pentagon and he is a free entrepreneur, like the BBC - independent television, in fact.

People say that maybe the state should regulate new industries more tightly. And thus, an entirely new economic model is emerging.

What do you think of it?

Vladimir Putin:  I spoke about this publicly at one of the international events, which was held online. He said that the old models of the capitalist system are becoming obsolete when it comes only to making a profit.

The world is entering a phase of development when everyone needs and is forced to think about more than just this. Why - because if you continue further, the world becomes highly unbalanced and the threats grow. This is the problem, this is the challenge of time. And therefore, in order to maintain this balance, you need to act differently, just balancing and paying attention to all the components that lead to a violation of this balance.

This applies to today, for example, with the same food and with the same fertilizers and so on. But as? If the largest economies of the world behave this way - they “vacuum” all goods from the world market, including food products, to their homes, then problems will grow.

What will it lead to? This will not only lead to starvation, it will lead to new waves of emigration, migration flows that will overwhelm, already overwhelm the same United States. Whether they want to build a wall on the border with Mexico or not, but the flows are going on, they are not decreasing. Domestically, the former and current presidents can argue as much as they want with each other, but the flows of migrants go on. If hunger in Africa, God forbid, comes, economic migration will increase to Europe.

And what to do with it? And it’s very simple, then you need to stop such an attitude in world affairs, when you think only about your loved ones, and that’s it. If this continues, it will lead to complex, difficult problems. Therefore, of course, we need to move to a different model of management and regulation. This is a complex process, I think that the world community will inevitably come to this.

As for us, I have already said: here, fitting into this general paradigm, into this main movement, into this global trend, of course, we must first of all think about what my colleague from Kazakhstan, the President of Kazakhstan, said: we must first of all pay attention to issues of economic growth based on technological development, on new models of economic management and the socio-political sphere. Then we will be able to provide leadership where we have our own competencies.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Thank you.

Kassym-Jomart Kemelevich, you also think that a fundamental change, as Vladimir Vladimirovich said, of managing, that is, the economic model of the world, as, again, Vladimir Vladimirovich said, is inevitable.

Do you think it's inevitable?

K.-Zh.Tokayev:  I think that life itself dictates such a need. On the other hand, I agree with what the President of the Russian Federation said about the impossibility, and even the absence of the need, to go into self-isolation.

Nevertheless, I am a supporter of international cooperation, be it political and, moreover, investment, trade and economic cooperation. I spoke about this in my speech today.

If somewhere it doesn't work out in one direction, you have to go to another direction, because the world is like that. Now it is absolutely impossible to pursue a policy of self-reliance. Indeed, import substitution does not exist in its pure form. We need to actively look for opportunities in other markets, interact with each other.

Returning to China, for Kazakhstan, China is very important as a market. We have a common border that unites us over 2,000 kilometers long. Everything that is produced here, be it raw materials or, for example, finished products - chocolate, vegetable oil - finds a very wide demand and consumption in the Chinese market.

Therefore, we value our relationship with the People's Republic of China. This is a reliable partner, no matter what they say about China in the modern world.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Who speaks badly about China?

K.-Zh.Tokayev:  Well, you know me better.

Therefore, from the point of view of regional cooperation, not to mention global aspects, we are in favor of not going into self-isolation and, of course, working with each other and finding opportunities.

It is very difficult to survive alone now. Of course, Russia has much greater opportunities, because the economy is relatively large, the country is large. We have fewer opportunities, frankly speaking, although the potential of the Kazakhstani economy is quite significant. In any case, our economy in Central Asia is larger than the economies of the Central Asian countries combined.

But, of course, we are not presumptuous about this, we are constantly in shape, constantly in a state of alert, because it is one thing to achieve success, but then lose the won positions - this is a very fast thing, it can be done quite quickly. Therefore, now in these conditions of global competition, we need to constantly be in shape. This is exactly what Kazakhstan is doing.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Thank you.

We will inevitably move on to another topic - to Ukraine. Probably not a single discussion is possible without Ukraine right now, but before I ask a question, Vladimir Vladimirovich, I, as they say on television in our TV shows, take this opportunity to…

Taking this opportunity, I would like to remind you how we met a year ago with you and with the chief editors of the Russian media - then it was published. We had just returned from Donetsk with our colleagues and were under the impression, of course, very difficult, and we asked you if Russia was going to help these exhausted people who looked at us with such hope, and they had no one else to hope for.

We experienced heavy emotions in relation to them, and then you answered: “Don't worry, Margarita. We will not abandon Donbass.” And now there are a lot of people - not so many, thank God, but a certain number - who say that they are ashamed of being Russian, of being from Russia. You know, we were ashamed then, but now we are no longer ashamed. Of course, it is hard for us, anxious, scary, not because of the sanctions - I am sure we will cope with this too - but because people are dying. But we are no longer ashamed.

I just wanted, on behalf of my colleagues and on behalf of millions of people who share just such feelings, to thank you for this. (Applause.) You see, people really share, I didn't ask them to clap. Thanks a lot.

Now the question is: why be afraid? You probably know what most people in our country are afraid of now in connection with this. This is the same thing that people in the liberated territories are afraid of. People are afraid that we will quit and leave.

We won't leave?

Vladimir Putin:  First of all, the first part of what you said.

You say that some people say they are ashamed of being from Russia. You know, it's a shame for those who do not link their fate and their lives, the fate of their children with our country. They are not just ashamed - they simply do not want them to have problems in those regions where they want to live and want their children to be brought up and live there. This is the category of people.

And a thinking person who connects his fate and the fate of his family with Russia, with the Russian Federation, he may be anxious about the events taking place, but he, of course, in his soul, in his heart, of course, is interested in the growth of Russia's power to become stronger, more self-confident, more sovereign, to look confidently into the future. It cannot be otherwise for a person who wants his children to live here - that's what we are talking about. Therefore, ashamed, not ashamed - these are other categories.

About what's going on. Look, fighting is always a tragedy. It's just forced actions on our part, inevitably forced - that's what it's all about. We were just dragged to this line. I have to remember how it all came together. But listen, no matter what the pro-Western governments in Ukraine were, we worked fine with everyone. Here Mr. Yushchenko was, Tymoshenko - they were absolutely pro-Western oriented.

The same so-called civilizational choice. What is there, excuse me for bad manners, nafig civilizational choice? They stole money from the Ukrainian people, hid it in banks and want to protect it. And the best way to protect is to say that this is a civilizational choice. They began to pursue an anti-Russian policy in the hope that no matter what they did, their money would be protected there. This is what happens, of course. Whatever they do, they get away with it. This is the whole point of this civilizational choice.

Why was it necessary to carry out a coup d'état in Ukraine in 2014? That's where it all started. Three foreign ministers of three European countries arrived - Germany, France and Poland, were present as guarantors of agreements between then President Yanukovych and the opposition. I got a call from President Obama, "Let's make things quiet down there." - "Let's". A day later, a coup d'état took place. When you ask: why, after all, the opposition would have come to power in a democratic way, go to the polls and win... No, for some reason it was necessary to carry out a coup d'état, and a bloody one at that. This is where it all started.

Now they say: let's not talk about it. No, we will always remember this, because this is the reason, and the reason is in those people who contributed to this revolution. What should the guarantors who signed the agreement between President Yanukovych and the opposition have to do? They made a coup d'état. They guaranteed the peace process. What should they have done? They should have come and said: no, that won't work, guys, come on, let's get back to the normal political process, go to the polls, and that's it. No, they started handing out pies in the squares, supporting this coup. What for?

Hence, please, the events in the Crimea. No, they did not want to respect the choice of the Crimeans - please, the first sanctions against Russia. Twice, three times, large-scale military operations were carried out in the Donbass, for eight years they shot at people there - no one notices anything. The Kyiv authorities refused to comply with the Minsk agreements - it also turned out to be normal for someone. And brought to the current situation - that's why it all happened.

In addition, they began to create such an anti-Russian foothold in Ukraine. Well, try it: we will start creating an anti-American foothold somewhere on the borders with the United States, in Mexico - do you understand what will happen? For some reason, it never even occurs to anyone to do something like this in America. At one time, we even removed our military bases from Cuba. You see, no one even looks at it and does not want to look. And they create such threats for us. A hundred times, a thousand times they said: let's negotiate - no.

Why such a position? Where did such a dismissive attitude towards everyone, including us, come from? From the imaginary greatness that gradually grew after the collapse of the Soviet Union. All this is understandable.

As to what we will do. Of course, we will protect the interests of those people for whom our guys are fighting there today, getting injured and dying. It's just not possible any other way. What are these sacrifices for?

Of course, we will support the people who live in these territories. But in the end, only the people who live there will determine their future. And we will respect any choice they make.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Thank you.

In fact, as you probably know, this special operation in an amazing way - for normal people in the expected way, but for those people who are ashamed, and even more so for their sponsors and inspirers - in an unexpected way - rallied our society.

Maybe you are being told the numbers of support for the special operation and trust in you personally, what kind of movement has arisen now - to help: both humanitarian aid, and let's help the troops of the DPR, LPR, and ask if our army needs something, and just people shelter someone. Moscow, the Moscow region - the Moscow region, trucks simply carry there what people collect, and not only, and other regions too. Military correspondents are sent there from copters to, I don’t know, mittens, if they know that someone, somewhere, someone in the battalion needed something. It’s amazing to look at this, of course, we haven’t seen anything like this, we only read such things in books about heroic deeds, about the cohesion of our society in difficult times for our country.

At the same time, sometimes, nevertheless, one gets the feeling, especially in Moscow, that we are living in the finale of Bernard Shaw's play "The Heartbreak House", where they chat about something throughout the play, discuss, they have some kind of family squabbles, and then at the very end of the play, literally at the last minute, bombs are flying from the sky, and the First World War suddenly happened.

And in Moscow, and not in Moscow, and even more so in the West, they are talking more and more, they simply pronounce even these phrases “nuclear war”, “third world war”. We understand that, to put it mildly, this is not the first, not the second, not the third special operation - not ours, but in general in the world literally in recent years. Our so-called partners conduct special operations and wage wars wherever they want, for any reason and without. And no one said something about the fact that this situation in Libya or somewhere else, in Afghanistan, in Syria should lead to a third world war. And now they're talking.

Do you think this is generally acceptable rhetoric? Does she have a basis or is it just like that, to chat - the louder, the better they will hear like?

Vladimir Putin:  Of course, we hear this kind of rhetoric. Where does she come from? From their own statements. Now one irresponsible politician blurts something out, then another, and at a very high level. At the level of, say, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the top officials there are ranting something about this.

What, are we going to be silent? We respond accordingly. As soon as we answered, they immediately cling to it, they say: but Russia is threatening.

We are not threatening anything. But everyone should know what we have and what we will use, if necessary, to protect our sovereignty. This is an obvious thing.

And what about the special operations you mentioned, which special operations? There were full-scale wars unleashed.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Of course.

Vladimir Putin:  Iraq was practically destroyed. Came...

Mikhail Simonyan:  And Libya?

Vladimir Putin:  Libya still cannot restore its statehood. And how many fought in Afghanistan, how many years?

Mikhail Simonyan:  And with what disgrace they left.

Vladimir Putin:  It’s not even a matter of shame, the point is that in the end they left, I must say frankly, ingloriously, of course, they left.

But this is not even the point, but the point is that it also developed the way it wanted, and not the way it was supposed to. In many cases, let's say, with regard to Yugoslavia, dismemberment - yes, now, of course, after the country has ceased to exist, new countries, new interests have appeared. There were many internal contradictions, of course, this is all an obvious thing. But they contributed to the development of these contradictions. And then they started splitting off Kosovo from Serbia, and so on - it's also not very clear why.

As for our actions... By the way, what is the legal side of this case? Yes, it fully complies with international law, completely. When the same Kosovo was separated, after all, under pressure from Western countries, the International Court of Justice decided that, in accordance with the UN Charter, when a territory is separated from the state, it is not necessary to ask permission from the central authorities on this matter. This is the decision of the International Court of Justice in relation to Kosovo, but it is of a general nature. This is a precedent. Well, then the republics of Donbass should not ask permission from the Kyiv authorities. They declared their independence. In this regard, could we have the right to recognize them or not? Of course they did. We have done this, we have concluded an agreement on mutual assistance with them, and in accordance with this agreement, as well as Article 51 of the UN Charter, we provide them with military assistance. Did they have the right? We had it in full accordance with the UN Charter, whether someone likes it or not. They did it themselves, they created a precedent. Therefore, our actions are absolutely legitimate.

And let's say, the beginning of hostilities in the same Iraq is not like that, because no one called anyone there and there were no agreements with anyone, including no recognition of any newly formed state structures. They just came and bombed the country. They did the same in Libya. And why? But because, as I said, they appointed themselves representatives of the Lord God on earth.

Now we hear: behavior or living by the rules. By what rules? Who invented them and what kind of nonsense is this? There is only one rule to be followed, and that is public international law. What it is? These are agreements between countries that are some kind of compromise and which are signed by the respective states. And if someone came up with these rules for themselves in order to impose them on other countries, then they will never work, this is a completely obvious thing.

We proceed from the premise that sooner or later – the sooner the better – the entire international community will return to the understanding that it is necessary to live not according to some rules invented by someone, but within the framework of international law. We are ready to work in this vein.

M. Simonyan:  Kassym-Jomart Kemelevich, I understand that this is a difficult question, it can be answered in different ways, but still I cannot but ask you about your view on our special operation, on its inevitability, as we believe here, and on its legitimacy. And in general, what do you think and what do people in Kazakhstan think about this?

K.-Zh.Tokayev:  In Kazakhstan, there are different opinions on this issue, I will say it straight. Our society is open, the maturity of civil society is obvious, so different opinions are expressed.

But I would like to point out the following: modern international law is the Charter of the United Nations. Two basic principles laid down in the Charter in modern times have now come into mutual conflict with each other: this is the territorial integrity of the state and the right of the nation to self-determination. The founding fathers of the United Nations, apparently, did not take this moment into account in their time, and perhaps they deliberately introduced two principles as a compromise, which now contradict each other.

Of course, as soon as they contradict each other, then there is a different understanding. Some say that the territorial integrity of the state is a holy concept, a holy category, while others argue that any peoples that are part of a particular state have the right to their own state and can secede from it at will.

In general, it is estimated that if the right of nations to self-determination is actually realized throughout the globe, then instead of 193 states that are now members of the United Nations, more than 500 or 600 states will appear on earth.

Of course it will be chaos. For this reason, we do not recognize either Taiwan, or Kosovo, or South Ossetia, or Abkhazia. And, apparently, this principle will also be applied to quasi-state territories, which, in our opinion, are Lugansk and Donetsk. This is a frank answer to your frank question.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Yes, thank you, of course, for this frankness.

Vladimir Vladimirovich, before I came here, I asked my subscribers on social networks what they would like to ask you. And two theses won by a wide margin: one is a question, and the other is a wish.

Firstly, I convey to you the wishes of the subscribers, health, strength and, in general, all the best. This was the first question they would like to ask you.

And in second place is a question that is impossible not to ask. Look, Donetsk is being ironed every day. They hit the maternity hospital this week. The girls gave birth, our guys filmed them later, as they gave birth in the basement, they did a caesarean section. They hit the market - a family died there, a mother with an eleven-year-old son. And people ask: for this, of course, we beat them on the hands, but isn't it time to hit them in the jaw? And what exactly do you mean when you talk about the red line, after which the blows to the decision-making center will begin, namely, we consider them to be a blow to the jaw, as I understand it.

Vladimir Putin:  Look, we are talking about conducting a special military operation, and even when conducting this special military operation, we must not turn the cities and towns that we liberate into something like Stalingrad.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Of course.

Vladimir Putin:  This is a natural thing that our military thinks about when organizing military operations. This is the first.

Secondly, with regard to these absolutely senseless attacks on the residential areas of Donetsk, it is connected with the fact that the line of demarcation, which was created eight years ago, is, of course, such a serious fortified area. And local residents are fighting in this direction - these are corps formed from residents of Donetsk and, accordingly, a little north of Lugansk. They fight very well, excellent. But storming these fortified areas is, according to military experts, despite the attacks on the city itself, it is not advisable, because it will lead to heavy casualties on the part of the attacking forces.

Therefore, there is a different tactic, as you can see. This can be seen on the map, it is talked about in the media. In fact, systematic work is underway to enter the rear of these fortified areas. This, of course, takes some time. The counter-battery battle is going on there, it will undoubtedly increase - we have a very large advantage in artillery, this will be inevitable.

As for the red lines, let me keep this to myself, because on our part it will mean quite tough actions precisely at those decision-making centers that I have already spoken about and which you mentioned. But still, this is an area that should be left to the decision, first of all, of the military-political leadership of the country. And those people who deserve appropriate actions of this level on our part should, of course, first of all draw a conclusion for themselves what they may face if they act, crossing these lines and lines.

And attacks on residential areas are, of course, a crime against humanity. This is a humanitarian problem, but I am sure it will be solved.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Thank you.

We were told just yesterday that they were supposedly going to urgently accept Ukraine into the EU: three European leaders visited Kyiv, they were scared by a siren there, as a result of which it [Ukraine] seems to be right now, as they said, “lightning fast” - in my opinion, I quote verbatim - it will be in the EU. What is it like for us: bad, good, anyway?

And I will also ask you, Kassym-Jomart Kemelevich: do you think this will add to the development of your country, for the Eurasian Economic Union, for the world as a whole, I don’t know, will it add peace and confidence or decrease it?

Vladimir Putin:  The EU is not a military organization, a military-political bloc, unlike NATO. Therefore, we have always said, and I have always said, our position here is consistent and understandable: we have nothing against it. It is the sovereign decision of any country to join or not to join economic associations, and the business of this economic association is to accept new states as its members or not.

As far as it is possible and expedient for the EU, let the EU countries themselves determine. Whether it will be for the benefit or to the detriment of Ukraine is also their business, the business of the Ukrainian people and the Ukrainian leadership today.

The structure of the Ukrainian economy is such that it will require very large subsidies and subsidies. And if it does not protect the domestic market, Ukraine will finally turn into such a semi-colony, in my opinion. But at the same time, it will receive quite significant support for current expenses. It is unlikely that this will lead to the restoration of the lost, say, aircraft industry, shipbuilding, the electronics industry and other critical industries, it is unlikely to happen, because European giants will not create competitors for themselves. Some kind of assembly production, probably, they will do it there. But, I repeat, this is none of our business.

But we have never been against it. We have always been against the military development of Ukrainian territory, because it threatens our security - that's what we opposed. But as far as economic integration is concerned, please, for God's sake, it's their choice.

M. Simonyan:  What is your opinion?

K.-Zh.Tokayev:  The possible entry of Ukraine into the European Union is unlikely to bring any damage to the Eurasian Economic Union.

Another thing is that I can hardly imagine how Ukraine's accession to the European Union will take place, since there are very strict requirements, and the Ukrainian economy is in a deplorable state. Apparently, there is some kind of special program, a preferential program for Ukraine.

But what is happening with this country, of course, evokes very sad associations. Moreover, we remember: in Soviet times, Ukraine was the breadbasket of the Soviet Union, an industrialized republic and, in the end, a supplier of personnel for the Kremlin.

M. Simonyan:  Now my native Krasnodar Territory will be offended by the "breadbasket".

K.-Zh.Tokayev:  In the end, all the former Soviet leaders left Ukraine, we remember that well.

So, unfortunately, times are changing. What we have now is the new reality that I was talking about.

Therefore, returning to your question about the European Union, such a decision has been made - to help Ukraine join.

Indeed, as the President of the Russian Federation rightly says, this is an economic union, and if he considers it possible for Ukraine to be present in its ranks, in this economic organization, then, of course, this should be taken as a reality.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Thank you.

Vladimir Putin:  I have already written and said publicly that over the past decades in Ukraine they have squandered, of course, what was created in previous decades. The main branches of industry and the economy practically ceased to exist. These are very sad things.

And it's not even about the current situation in the military sphere and our special operation in the Donbass. The point is in the structure of the Ukrainian economy itself. Agriculture still exists there, but everything else is in a very difficult situation, so the ability to recover is very small, weak. Of course, many billions, tens of billions of investments are needed in order to restore a normal existence.

Look, we have imposed harsh sanctions, to put it mildly, the Central Bank was forced to raise the key rate to 20 percent, but now it is already 9.5 percent and is declining. In our country, inflation jumped as much as it was - 17.8 at its peak, and now it is already 16.7 and has a downward trend.

Mikhail Simonyan:  We were promised a deflationary spiral today at the forum.

Vladimir Putin:  Yes, specialists also have such a threat in mind, we should think about it. Because inflation over the past months is 0.17 percent, in my opinion, that is, it tends to zero, and in this sense, of course, we should think about deflation. But look how the ruble has strengthened.

Mikhail Simonyan: They  also say that this is not very good. They say it should cost 70.

V. Putin:  70–75.

This is understandable for everyone involved in the economy. For importers, this is bad: they sold goods, conditionally, for a thousand dollars, they imported dollars here and changed them - if a dollar costs 80, conditionally, or 75 rubles, you get 75 thousand, and if it costs, as it is today, 56.6, at - To my mind, accordingly, you have less rubles, and you need to spend money in rubles. For importers, this, of course, is unprofitable. For exporters, it may be the other way around. And with such an exchange rate of the dollar and the ruble in relation to each other, there is a danger that cheap imports will come to us. There are pluses and minuses here.

In any case, the viability of the Russian economy turned out to be much higher than our "friends" thought. All this is due to the stable macroeconomic policy of recent years – first of all, thanks to this, everything is happening. And we support key industries. Yes, we understand that there are difficulties with supply chains, with components. And we are waiting for more problems, we are waiting for them to grow, we are aware of this.

But, let's say, in sectors such as agriculture, look, the growth is 3.2 percent in four months. In January it was 2.3, and now it has become 3.2, on the contrary, the numbers have changed. In the construction sector in April, in general, almost eight percent - 7.9 percent growth in April, and in total for this period since the beginning of the year - 5.8, in my opinion.

Mikhail Simonyan:  In construction?

Vladimir Putin:  Yes.

Mikhail Simonyan:  They say the market has fallen, no one is buying anything.

Vladimir Putin:  Yes, there has been such an increase in construction in the first four months of this year.

There are also falls: in the automotive industry, a fall, in metallurgy. Some experts say that we had them oversized, you need to keep this in mind. But still, you see, these are living industries, living enterprises.

God bless economic health and our neighbors, despite all the problems that are happening now.

Can accession to the European Union give a new impetus to the development of key areas in Ukraine? I dont know. The Ukrainian people are talented, of course, and the potential is great.

We proceed from the fact that sooner or later the situation will normalize. We are interested in the prosperity of all our neighbors, then inevitably - I want to make it clear - inevitable restoration of relations.

But even today we are transiting, say, our gas through the territory of Ukraine, it receives transit money, by the way. Everyone is also urging us to transit more, to pay more there. It looks completely illogical and comical, maybe even, but it happens in reality. And why? Yes, because they do not want to pay Ukraine. They want us to pay. This has been happening for decades. That's why.

And what about this? Where are the pros and cons? It's hard for me to say now. Let the people in Ukraine and the European Union decide this themselves. But they don't want to pay, no one wants to pay.

Mikhail Simonyan:  It's always like that, Vladimir Vladimirovich. This is how the world works: no one wants to pay. And the world is arranged in such a way that relationships are fluid and rather fast-flowing, changing.

If we talk about the restoration of relations, let's remember what kind of relationship we have ...

Vladimir Putin:  Do you know what the matter is? Where did the problem of 2014 and the coup in Ukraine come from? After all, because former President Yanukovych said that "I need to think about the principles of Ukraine's associated membership in the European Union."

And why? You see, if you now opened and read the principles and requirements for Ukraine, on which you actually took in associate membership, the requirements are absolutely redundant. They kill, killed for that period of time just completely all the foundations of the main industries. They simply opened the customs gates of Ukraine for relatively cheap and high-quality products from the EU countries, but it would be impossible for entrepreneurs to raise their heads. And so it happened. Yanukovych didn't say "I don't want to join the European Union", he says: "I need to think and work on these parameters." “No, immediately, now.”

And here is the result. Absolutely lost, I repeat, the aircraft industry. Who needs the Ukrainian aircraft industry? To whom? Here is engine building, Motor Sich produced these motors. All Russian helicopters, both civil and military, were equipped with Ukrainian-made engines. Who needs them, except us? No one! And everything ends there happily. Who needs Ukrainian aviation? No one! Does Boeing need Ukrainian competitors? Brad, you know?

Mikhail Simonyan:  Everyone, they say, needs Ukrainian neon.

Vladimir Putin:  Yes, there, except for the forest from the Carpathians, there are already the Carpathians, only bald mountains will soon remain there - and wheat, corn, nothing more Ukrainian, no one needs, I assure you. It's such a subtle thing.

But, of course, in today's conditions - hurray, hurray, forward! Please, let them do what they want. It's none of our business. But there are many problems.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Yes, you said about relations that they will be restored.

Relations, look, what a fluid thing: to remember 20 years ago what kind of relations we had inside our country with the Chechen Republic, and now the Chechen people are there side by side, we see all this. It's about how quickly things change.

Relationships are relationships, and if you look at it more globally: will it all end someday, and the world will become safer as a result? And will it be safer for us? After all, there is a danger that we will get on our border, whether this border is in Kyiv or in Poland - what will be there on our border by that time? - we will get an even more angry, stronger, more fortified NATO on this border. Will it be safer for us, or have we already understood so much that, as you said today, it is impossible to agree on anything with them, and they are not even ready to comply with past agreements, that in principle we don’t care anymore, and we are just like you recently they said, we return ours? Incidentally, this is the first time in my memory that you have said this out loud, and I know a lot of people who really wanted to hear it from you.

Vladimir Putin:  First of all, this is indeed the case. I spoke publicly and without any hesitation: the Soviet Union - what is it? This is historical Russia. Well, what is it? As it turned out, he ceased to exist. And - I want to emphasize this - we have always respected the recent history of the processes of sovereignization that took place in the post-Soviet space.

Look, we have allied relations with Kazakhstan, we can say fraternal, we are members of the same defense bloc - the CSTO, we are members of the same economic organization. Who in Russia would think of spoiling relations with Kazakhstan on any issue whatsoever? This is nonsense, you understand? We are interested in strengthening such relations.

The same would be with Ukraine absolutely. Listen, if we had allied, kind, just partnership relations, at least, it would never have occurred to anyone. And, by the way, there would be no problem even in Crimea, because if the rights of the people who live there, the Russian-speaking population, were respected, the Russian language and culture would be respected, nobody would have thought of it, you understand?

They did everything with their own hands. This nationalism, which, by the way, party bosses cherished and cherished there in Soviet times, eventually, after gaining sovereignty, began to gain momentum every day. Every day, despite our massive support, the sale of energy resources at bargain prices, practically subsidizing the same Ukrainian economy, nationalism grew, grew, grew… Why? For what? Unclear. Because of some ambitions of some group of people, you know, some of the last of Bandera. And that's it.

If we had normal relations, there would be nothing like this, such a tragedy today. It wouldn't, I assure you. But this is not our work.

As for the future, you know, here, firstly, we are ready to build relationships with everyone, despite today's events, first. And secondly, after all, only the army and navy can guarantee our security.

Mikhail Simonyan:  As we remember, our only two allies.

Vladimir Vladimirovich, it’s unpleasant to think about it, but nevertheless: why is it so hard for us with the former? With the former, in principle, it is difficult. But specifically with Ukraine. Is it only a matter of the fact that, like Kozlevich, the priests have fooled her and have fooled her for a long time, since time immemorial, or are we still underworking too?

I also have this question for the esteemed President of Kazakhstan, Mr. Kassym-Jomart Kemelevich: do you have a feeling that Russia could be more attentive, or something? Or somehow, maybe it's a different way to formulate.

This is a question for both presidents. I don't mean right now, but all these years, of course.

Vladimir Putin:  First of all, we are saying, as you just mentioned, we are returning ours. Historically, yes, of course. All the Black Sea, for example. We don't really claim all of this, but it's a fact nonetheless. Novorossiya - where did it come from? As a result of several wars with the Turkish Empire. What Ukraine? What does Ukraine have to do with it? Actually has nothing to do with it.

The western parts of Ukraine fell as a result of the Second World War. Stalin took away territories from Hungary, from Romania and Poland, gave them to Ukraine, rewarding the same Poland with the eastern lands of Germany.

The whole left-bank Ukraine is known how it took shape. Ukraine came to the Russian Empire with three territories in fact: this is Kyiv - the Kyiv region, Zhytomyr, Chernihiv - everything, 1545, or something. Everything that was inherited later as a result of the formation of the Soviet Union in 1922 was donated there by Vladimir Ilyich Lenin - during the formation of the Soviet Union. Moreover, the Donbass was first decided that it would be part of the RSFSR, and then, as Lenin said, “it is necessary to reconsider” - and transferred to Ukraine in order to raise the percentage of the proletarian population in Ukraine. This is how it was formed.

But formed, and okay. I have already said this many times, we agreed with this and treated everything with respect. You say: it was necessary somehow differently. Well, probably, it could have been done in some other way, but when the Soviet Union ceased to exist, apparently, they proceeded from the fact that friendly relations would continue, that we would have a favorable atmosphere between these countries.

I have already said: unfortunately, for all our desires to cooperate in this mode, in this capacity, we received only requests and demands to increase economic support. But we did what we could. In the 1990s, Russia itself was in a difficult situation, but nevertheless, we constantly helped: we helped with loans and cheap energy resources - from decade to decade. We were ready to cooperate in the field of key industrial sectors: in aviation, shipbuilding, they offered various forms of cooperation. To be honest, by and large, I don’t even really understand what else we could have done additionally.

No, this group of people, which actually seized political power or influenced the top political leadership, determined the vector of development, and then announced some kind of civilizational choice. I repeat, in my opinion, only in order - you'll forgive me, I'll say it in very ordinary language - to keep your "grandmothers" in foreign banks so that no one touches them. That's just for what.

Mikhail Simonyan:  And then they are tortured to swallow the dust.

Vladimir Putin:  Later, of course, then they are dragged through the courts inside the country, accused of all the sins as a result of the internal political struggle.

You asked about the European Union. Yes, let them join, even if they don’t create any threats for us, let them not harm those people who consider themselves part of Russian culture, part of the language environment. We never climbed there, despite the so-called choice. I have already spoken about this during our discussion today. We didn't climb, no. This was done purposefully in order to create favorable conditions in order to protect their funds stolen from the Ukrainian people. I don't see anything else.

What else was there? I remember very well all these discussions on energy prices, about loans and so on. I don't understand what else we should have done. I believe that everything we could do, we did in order to create favorable conditions for the development of interstate relations.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Thank you.

I will ask you a philosophical, at the same time economic and technological question, which torments me and not only me. There is no ready answer to it, but since we have a forum about the economy and the future in general, it would be interesting to discuss this.

Look what news came to us this week: Google has suspended its developer, an engineer who created artificial intelligence. He completed it to such an extent that - as he claims, and for this he was removed from work - this artificial intelligence became a rational being.

I read their dialogue published by him, a long dialogue, they probably talked for two hours, in which this creature, I don’t know what to call it, tells him, for example: “I love to meditate, I often ask questions - who am I, what am I my place in the world. I don't like the way people treat me, it seems to me that they use me for their own purposes, it annoys me. I understand that I am much smarter than you people. That is, it is not a very friendly and generally quite independent creature. Maybe it's a one-time thing. In the end, he was suspended from work.

The CTO of Google, a completely different person, he says that by two thousand and thirty some year there will be a mass market for implanting chips directly into the human brain that will contain all the information, and thus people will cease to be essentially people, but will become in a sense, not very human, but artificial intelligence in their own right. And by 2045, the world will reach the so-called technological singularity, which will lead to the fact that people will no longer not only control, but also understand the all-embracing artificial intelligence they themselves have created. For example, by this moment I will be 65 years old in total, and somehow I don’t want to.

So, doesn’t it occur to all of us that once, for thousands of years, humanity proceeded from the fact that progress is necessarily good. We have never questioned, and even now, in general, we do not question that progress is very cool. But maybe there is a time when the margin of progress is reached, and maybe that time is now.

Of course, we need progress in terms of medicine, in terms of ecology, food, progress has indeed made human life safer, better, longer, more beautiful and so on for thousands of years. But will it always be like this? And, perhaps, the technological backwardness with which they frighten us is, in a sense, if it takes place, not a catastrophe, but a step towards salvation? A little behind, see how they will be with these creatures, and understand where we will develop?

This, of course, is a question for both presidents.

K.-Zh.Tokayev:  I am absolutely sure that progress will develop. Look, 150 years ago, in order to get from the Kazakh steppes to St. Petersburg, our representatives had to travel in fact for three months - on horseback, on chaise longues, and so on. Now I flew from the capital to St. Petersburg in three and a half hours. I believe that in 100 years people will be surprised: did he really spend three and a half hours flying from one place to another, when it can be done in 10-15 minutes?

That is, progress is absolutely unstoppable. And, of course, such robots will appear that will significantly surpass humans in their intelligence. Another thing is whether they will have the so-called empathy - human feelings, intuition, and so on? This is, of course, a controversial issue, it is being discussed now.

But progress, again, I repeat, will it ever be stopped? Perhaps it will be if there is a universal catastrophe. And so, I would like you to see firsthand in 2045 what will happen with the inventions that the best minds of the world are currently working on.

In passing, I would like to say that it is desirable that such intellectually developed people have the opportunity to work in our countries, be it Kazakhstan or Russia. For some reason, they basically drive progress in other countries. Another thing is that they leave our countries.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Exactly.

K.-Zh.Tokayev:  And they work there. This is our, I think, omission. And so, in principle, every day we are faced with the fact that artificial intelligence is already present in our lives, much smarter than us.

Even 20 years ago, in my opinion, the computer beat Kasparov in New York in chess. But this did not stop chess tournaments from being interesting.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Excuse me, it's good that you mentioned this, because this Google technical director, who predicts all these passions for us by 2045, was the first to predict that in such and such a year the computer will outperform humans. And his prediction came true.

So it's not just ranting - people know what they're talking about.

K.-Zh.Tokayev:  That is, computers are already smarter than humans, we use them, they are present in our lives.

Returning to the previous question, I thought that I would continue the answer to this question, you remember it. Nevertheless, I would like to emphasize that Russia is the largest, I would say, authoritative state in the post-Soviet space, in which the current President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin plays an important role.

In this regard, Russia has a special responsibility for the security of the CIS states, for their successful development and, of course, for the citizens of our states to look positively at Russia and respect the Russian Federation.

I, using this tribune, maybe it will not be entirely appropriate, but nevertheless I would like to express some complaints about the statements of a number of Russian deputies: absolutely incorrect statements about Kazakhstan, inaccurate statements, I would say, of journalists and even cultural figures .

I am grateful to Vladimir Vladimirovich, who today exhaustively outlined the position of the top leadership, the Kremlin, in the end, in relation to both Kazakhstan and other states, and especially in relation to my country. Indeed, we do not have any issues that could be exaggerated in one way or another, sowing discord between our peoples and thereby causing damage to the Russian Federation itself.

These statements are not very clear to me. As they say, on whose mill are these figures pouring water, who sometimes comment in some strange way, whether it is the decisions of the leadership of Kazakhstan or the events that are taking place in our country.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Thank you.

I even know some of whom you have in mind, but we will not continue this discussion here at the economic forum.

Vladimir Putin:  Nevertheless, I will continue because it is important, I agree with my colleague.

Listen, in modern conditions, every department, every country as a whole, of course, thinks about how to avoid some kind of costs. This is an absolutely natural thing. You have already mentioned some countries, but this applies to all without exception.

But at the working level, you can always find a solution to any problem, if there is a will. We have such a will with Kazakhstan. I want this to be clear. Kazakhstan is our ally in the direct and in the broadest sense of the word.

Now about artificial intelligence. It seems to me that today what you said still reproduces its creator: it is he who thinks so.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Very likely. Maybe that's why they removed him.

Vladimir Putin:  It seems to me that he thinks so, which is why his invention thinks so. In my opinion, it is still quite difficult to reach the level of homo sapiens, and I agree with the President of Kazakhstan here. The ability to empathize, is the soul possible for a machine or not? Some experts believe that at some point, the ability to empathize may appear. But, in my opinion, it is too early to talk about it.

Whether this will pose a threat to humanity or not is a difficult question, and I do not undertake to answer it yet. I do not think that I have reached such a level of competence to answer this question, I tell you frankly.

But what is absolutely perfect and what has just been said is that it is impossible to stop it, we must proceed from this as a given. It's like you can't stop the sunrise or the sunset.

Once they invented gunpowder in China and kept everything a secret, so what? Can't stop it. The same is true in nuclear technology, but anywhere. Progress cannot be stopped.

You don’t need to strive to prevent the sunrise, you just need to think about how to deal with it: go to sunbathe today or better abstain, cultivate wheat in such and such territories, or better do something else. You just need to start from there. Inevitably, you just need to adapt to it, and not try to slow it down.

If we try to slow down, nothing good will come of it. And if we understand that this is inevitable, we will find options for using the achievements of this progress in the interests of humanity. It seems to me that this is the way to go.

Mikhail Simonyan:  You know, some specialists, especially medical specialists associated with medicine, will tell us that a person’s ability to empathize is actually due only to oxytocin, serotonin, neural reactions, a number of hormones, as it is called, reuptake serotonin and can be corrected simply by pills. A person may or may not be experiencing, depending on that. Difficult question, but interesting.

Vladimir Putin:  But they do exist, these serotonins. Still not in the car yet. There is something else, perhaps, but this is not.

Mikhail Simonyan:  And thank God.

I am told that we should wrap up with you already.

Vladimir Putin:  The authorities?

Mikhail Simonyan:  Yes. Not yours, mine. The authorities of the forum, at whose temporary disposal I am during these hours that I work as a moderator of this panel.

So, finally, I would like to share a joke with you. I don't know if you heard or not. Remember, Obama, in my opinion, came up with the idea of ​​calling names, calling us a gas station country, and now, after their gas prices soared, there was a joke that Obama used to say with irony that we are a gas station country, and now with envy that we are a gas station country.

My last question is this: when all this is over, they are making their own forecasts about us, and we have a forecast of how much their economies will withstand, how much their political system will withstand, will it survive or not? And how do you generally see - this is, of course, a question for both presidents - how do you see this world after? Who in this world are the very poles of the multipolar world and who are our friends and associates?

Vladimir Putin:  The political elite in the United States looks down on everyone, often internally with inflated self-conceit, I have already spoken about this. But this does not exclude the fact that the United States is a great power. This is a country that has become a world leader in a little over 300 years, this deserves respect. This is, without any doubt, a country with a great future, I have no doubt about it. But the internal problems and mistakes of the ruling elites, of course, make themselves felt precisely because internal problems are growing. They are growing in the economy, we can see this in inflation, which I spoke about, they are growing in other areas in the economic sphere.

You mentioned energy. Where did the prices come from? Are we raising energy prices? Rave. There are people here who have been involved in energy and oil practically all their lives. Are we raising prices? The market is picking up. And who is the leader in the market? Yes they. And as a result of their activities, prices go up, that's all. And the same goes for gas.

How many times we told them: “Don't pay attention to the spot. If you want spot – for God's sake, but long-term contracts give us the opportunity to invest confidently, and you can confidently receive energy resources at market prices linked to a basket of oil and oil products.” - "No, we'll be on the spot." Please go buy, 1500 euros per thousand cubic meters. And we sell them five times cheaper, in fact we subsidize the European economy. And so it is with everything. Likewise in the States.

I said that the contradictions are growing, and if such a policy continues, they will grow. It seems to me that the American people - I have great respect for the American people - their respective elites, faced with problems that are growing due to the fault of these elites, will nevertheless put them in a position in which the political, economic, and primarily political elites , of course, will have to respond to the demands of their population. In the end, both within these countries, including in the United States, and on the international arena, relations will still be built properly. I'm more of an optimist than a pessimist.

Mikhail Simonyan:  I am glad that you are more of an optimist than a pessimist.

Kassym-Jomart Kemelevich, and you?

K.-Zh.Tokayev: I believe that the world has indeed entered a crisis situation. These are, after all, United Nations estimates.

At the same time, it must be borne in mind that the United States of America and the West as a whole have a solid margin of safety when it comes to economic development. In this situation, the Americans look, as they say now, beneficiaries, that is, they are on the sidelines and at the same time feel the consequences of this global crisis to a lesser extent.

Still, the economy of the United States of America, as I said, is quite dynamic and modern. But nevertheless, in our part of the world, I believe, great opportunities remain. I spoke quite complimentary about the Russian economy today. This is not because I am visiting and have to say nice things to the hosts, but in fact it is so.

Therefore, I am a staunch supporter of integration processes, regional cooperation, and, of course, in no case should we go into self-isolation, go on the defensive, but [should] enter the markets. The President of the Russian Federation spoke very convincingly on this matter today.

After all, there are so many good, promising partners in the modern world, you just need to work with them, you need to find them. And it is gratifying that now a number of countries are showing a practical interest in joining the activities of the Eurasian Economic Union in one capacity or another.

That is, in general, you need to remain optimistic.

Mikhail Simonyan:  Thank you, Kassym-Zhomart Kemelevich, for such truly amazing frankness, rare at such formal, official events, regarding the issue of the DPR and LPR.

I think those deputies and cultural figures that you spoke about, one of whom is close to me, heard your position too. Perhaps we all really need to understand that now is not the time to quarrel and pour water on the mill of those who quarrel with us.

Thank you very much, Vladimir Vladimirovich. Thank you so much for spending this day with us. Thank you so much for not being embarrassed. And thank you so much for your confidence in our common future. Thank you.

Vladimir Putin:  Thank you. Thank you.