Hal Puthoff on Rogan - Full Transcript

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joe Rogan podcast Check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan
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podcast by night All day All right All right Now hey what's
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happening oh lots happening Really lot Thank you so much for being here I'm
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very excited to talk to you Um I've been thinking about nothing but that since that dinner that
we had a few months ago
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Oh yes Thinking about it a lot Yeah you told me a lot of crazy stuff So yeah
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Well it just seems like that that's been my my thing in life is get involved in
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the crazy stuff no matter where it comes from When did that start when did you start getting
involved in the crazy
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stuff well actually I began early on I was uh you know a ham radio operator as
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a teenager and I went to vocational school I didn't think I'd ever go to college or whatever but
I got all
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involved in uh learning about uh radio uh transmission and all that kind of
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stuff So I finally okay I'm going to go to college and and uh really concentrate
1:06on electrical engineering and physics and all that kind of stuff But the weird stuff actually
began
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uh kind of by absolute accident At the
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time I was uh involved at uh Stanford University getting my PhD Uh I was just
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doing cool things I had I'd invented a broadly tunable infrared laser uh one of
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the first of its kind Even got a patent as a graduate student Wow and uh
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co-authored with my thesis advisor uh uh
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textbook graduate level textbook fundamentals of quantum electronics published in English
French Russian and
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Chinese So I was I was on a cool role just doing the normal physics kinds of
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things But interestingly enough once I was there writing a graduate level
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textbook I realized you know there's something I don't know And that is what about
consciousness what about living
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things i mean is it still just atoms and molecules all the way down we just don't know about it
or are there some
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additional fields or whatever so it turned out I came across uh
2:21uh some publications by a polygraph expert who taught polygraph to the CIA
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and FBI and so on And one day on a lark he connected his polygraph up to his
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plants and he saw signals coming out that looked like what you see out of people and then
he decided to threaten
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the plant like he would a person and he got a big response Whoa And so he then
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went on to connect up a couple of plants to polygraphs and he would find that if he affected
one the other one would
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respond So I thought okay well maybe this is some new fields that we don't include in our
physics So I came up with
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what for me was just a pure physics experiment Uh I was going to grow some
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algae culture split it up put half of it at a laser link site far away and zap
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the local culture and see if it responded and I could measure velocity propagation so on So I
sent that off to
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this polygraph guy Cle Baxter is his name And so he said "Well that that'd be
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a cool experiment." Well here's one of these things where your life takes a lefthand turn
totally at random He goes to a
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cocktail party in New York City and there he runs into Ingo Swan who turned
3:34out to be so-called psychic famous artist but fellow that did remote
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viewing so-called and so he invited him over to his uh to his uh lab and said see if he
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could affect the plants and so on While he was there he saw my
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uh write up about the experiment I proposed which for me is just a pure physics experiment
And so he then wrote
4:01
me a letter and said "Well if you're interested in the borderline between animate and
inanimate physics why deal
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with algae culture they can't tell you anything You should be dealing with somebody like me."
Well I mean I
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couldn't care less about dealing with quote a psychic or whatever but attached
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to his letter he had a big uh report that had been generated at City College in New York
where he' done some
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experiments where he would raise and lower the temperatures of temperature
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sensitive temperature measuring devices across the lab And so I read that and I said "Well
that's that's pretty
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interesting." So Justin Alark by this time I I' I'd headed over to Stanford
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Research Institute to do my to do my laser work So anyway I invited him for
4:48you know a weekend just to see what else he could do And of course I talked to all my
physics colleagues and said "Oh
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my god these guys are all frauds and charlatans You better you better know what you're
doing." Well it turns out
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that I had a great experiment for him because we had an experiment set up at
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Stanford that was a very sensitive quantum chip inside of electrical
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shielding inside of magnetic shielding inside of superconducting shielding
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completely acoustically isolated from the environment No way anything on the
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outside could affect that little chip They were only looking for quarks and stuff like that So
anyway I brought him
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over to the lab I said ' Remember that thing you did with the with the uh thermisters there at
City College in New
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York well this is sort of that like that on steroids And so he said "Okay well
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I'll see what I can do." Well it turned out he generated all kinds of signals in
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in that little quantum chip And of course a graduate student whose life depended on this not
being you know
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affected by anything outside said well maybe there's some bubbles in the hydrogen line or
something something but5:58
no he was able to do it but what was most interesting was and I asked him
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well how'd you know what to do he said well I didn't know what to do so I just looked inside
looked inside through all
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this shielding and and he drew a diagram of what was inside there that never been published
and he said "Well this is when
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I put my attention on it." That just happened by accident So you drew an
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accurate diagram of all the shielding that you had around this equipment and
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the little quantum chip and its circuitry deep inside And when you say he was able to affect
something what in
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particular was he able to affect uh well in general there was a big oscillating
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signal coming out of the thing that ran about 30 seconds or so And then when he
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affected it it just stopped oscillating And then like and then he
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said "You want me to do something else?" And then he made it oscillate fast And that's when
the quant with when the
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graduate student sort of went berserko And uh so he said "Wait let let me see
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what's wrong here." And he couldn't find anything wrong So he said "Well I'm sure that was
just some kind of coincidental7:07
glitch." And he did it again And so he said "Okay." He's doing it exactly when
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he's saying he's going to do it Exactly when he say he's going to do it But anyway the reason
I'm trying to get get
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around to answering your question was that I then wrote this up and circulated around to
other physicists and pretty
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soon the CIA come landing on my doorstep and said "Oh have we been looking for
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you?" And I said "You know why?" Yeah Well they looked in my background and they saw
that I had uh between my uh
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master degree and PhD I'd been a naval intelligence officer at the National
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Security Agency I had lots of uh high level clearances And he said you know we have
7:51
a problem and they popped a big report down on the desk about like that and
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said "Look the Russians has been spending millions of dollars at their best institutes trying to
use ESP for
8:05
espionage purposes." And we don't know how to evaluate it I mean no scientist in
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America even believes there is such a thing And yet you did this experiment
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and it looked like this guy could actually get inside this device and describe it and affect it
and and here8:24
you're at SRRI We have lots of black black projects here anyway So we'd like we'd like to
check him out Uh can you
8:31
can you bring him back and let us come and do some experiments with them and by the way
we're hoping that we'll find
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this is just all BS and uh we don't have to think about it and that'll be the end of that So
anyway brought him back They
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spent a day hiding things in the boxes and envelopes and he would describe what was
inside and uh they were totally
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blown away So they said "Okay we want would like to give you a little project here I know 50
or 60K and see what else
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he can do." So anyway that's how I got started on doing quote weird stuff And
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so as that many would know that project ended up being very productive and it
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went over uh more than 20 years and so on highly classified level and well maybe we'll
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get to that separately because I think the UAP stuff is kind of more interesting to to start with
but anyway
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that's that's how I got started in in weird physics you might call it and then
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sort of like in Ghostbusters Well if you got some difficult problem who you going to call i'll put
off There I am9:41
So what other things did you do with Ingo so he was able to affect the oscillations So he able
to affect the
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oscillations So there's some he had some sort of an ability Did he describe first of all like
what this ability was how he
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perceived it he said that for some reason starting
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when he was a little kid um he would you know try to focus on
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some news item or whatever and he'd suddenly get some kind of picture in his mind about
what was going on and later
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he would check it out and it turned out to be correct So he just said you know I just he
stumbled upon remote viewing
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them right but remote viewing and then being able to interact with the equipment and change
the oscillation
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seems very different right it is very different And uh as we might discuss
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later I've got some ideas about you know what some of the quantum mechanisms might be
involved in that But anyway as
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far as the CIA was concerned they were most interested in this ability to see
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through shielding and they said "Does that mean if we have all kinds of
10:49classified documents and a superconducting safe the Russians might be able to you know
reach in and see
10:56
them?" And so that that that's what they were most worried about And so anyway
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did you find out to be true that started a whole program when we
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found out that uh it was true that uh we started out doing what you would think
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you know just hiding things in the next room and can you describe them and stuff like that
And uh but
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then he got bored He says "Well if you want to know what's in the next room go look You
want to know what's in the
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envelope or the box open it up." He said "So he said "Uh well you know what do you have in
mind?" He said "Well just
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send somebody out into the San Francisco Bay area and I'll describe where they are." And
so that's how what we call
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remote viewing program got started We started doing
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experiments which each I gota I got to say I I I I I resisted this stuff every
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inch along the way because as a physicist I had no idea how this could possibly be But
nonetheless we began
11:58
working with him uh our lab director who's always concerned about was this12:04
some kind of hoax between the subjects and the experimenters and he'd make up a long list
and store them in his safe and
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we'd go get an envelope out of the safe leave SRI drive to wherever the envelope
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said and he would give give a description That's how that whole program got started
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When you are experiencing this and you're initially very skeptical and you start seeing these
results what kind of
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a shift does that have in your world
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view it was very challenging I got to say because as a physicist and as a
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quantum physicist where I've you know written equations for all kinds of interactions I had no
clue how anything
12:48
like this could possibly be And I'll be be honest I still don't really have a
12:53
clue about exactly what's what's going on other than consciousness seems to be
13:00
expandable out into the environment in a way that we don't usually uh consider
13:06
could possibly be the case You know there there are people who get into meditation all that
kind of stuff but
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none of that was uh in in in my background And so I just found this a challenge and uh it was
only13:20
that CIA was paying us to look into this that I kept going the next step
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resisting every inch along the way To give you an example
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um along the way there was a little bit of uh PR in
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the newsprint newspapers about our exper experiment So we began getting people
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calling in and saying "Well I have some of that ability too." And and whatever And so uh one
of the people
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that came along uh that way was Pat Price He was uh ex police commissioner Burbank and
he
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said "You know when we were solving crimes I would get an image of where the culprit might
be hiding and it would
14:06
turn out to be correct So maybe I have some of this ability." Well I I had no reason to
necessarily believe that but
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it turned out that right at that moment we were being challenged by the CIA to prove this
wasn't just some kind
14:20
of a hoax between the experimenters and the subjects And so they came up with
14:25
coordinates because as it turns out when we sent people out to a site and Ingo or
14:31somebody else had to describe it they would describe not only the site as being observed by
the outbound
14:39
person but also what was inside the building and what was on top of the building So we
suddenly realized okay
14:44
that person is just a beacon It's not that he's sending something back telepathically So once
we realized that
14:50
Engle Swan in his neverending challenge uh said well just
14:57
give me coordinates you know latitude and longitude and degrees minutes and seconds and
I'll look wherever that is
15:04
and tell you what I find So in fact uh okay I found that hard to believe
15:10
also but we did a lot of experiments and started targeting on things Anyway Pat
15:16
Price shows up We do some local experiments and he's doing very well as
15:21
well And so again our CIA contract monitors are worried that there's some
15:27
kind of you know trickery trickery and and so that so they came up with coordinates of what
turns out to be
15:33
right next to Sugar Grove facility which is a highly classified NSA facility
15:39
picking up Soviet satellite transmissions So I just I I had no idea
15:46what it was I mean we always kept ourselves blind to what the target was so no one could
say We just gave him the
15:52
data So Pat Price uh decided to you know to follow our instructions and go to
15:59
those coordinates and say what he says And so he describes this place But as part of that
what he does
16:07
is he says that he merged his mind whatever you want to say into a safe and
16:16
a whole bunch of words popped up into his mind So he gave this whole list of words Okay
fine So he wrote them all
16:23
down sent them off Pretty soon the entire law enforcement apparatus of the country landed
on us
16:30
and said "How'd you get this information this is highly classified project titles
16:35
Do you have a source inside and no we were we're just doing this experiment and that's
what he got And so eventually
16:43
20 years later you can find the the paper that was published by the CIA about what a deal
this was And so anyway
16:52
at that time we were at a point we're about ready to get the next year's contract And we had
17:00
um a deputy director uh John McMahon said "Okay well let's not waste it on
17:06
our science for God's sakes Do a Soviet site." And so they17:11
gave us coordinates of a Soviet site Turned out to be an R&D facility at
17:18
Semipalatinsk in the Soviet Union And so we targeted Price on that He
17:25
turned out to be a really a good remote viewer along with Engine And uh he described this
giant crane that rolled
17:32
over the top of a building and uh I mean it was it sounded like science fiction I
17:39
I've got some examples here of the drawings of that And so uh it turned out that from
17:46
satellite imagery what he drew was correct And so that finally started Okay
17:55
this stuff is real It can be used Let's go to work with it So that's
18:02
what started the whole you might say espionage oriented uh SRRI program on
18:09
remote viewing It went for I don't know like 23 years or so What are the meetings like when
you're explaining
18:15
this to the CIA and you're showing them results and you've got these you know hard-nosed
individuals who are pretty
18:22
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There really basically two levels of response For example some of the early work when we
went to to to brief uh we
19:38
had 10 or 12 people and we're talking about the work Pretty soon a guy in the back of the
room jumps up and he says "I
19:44know what this is This is some kind of scop test of our gullibility and I want you to know
whoever's you know putting
19:52
this out I'm not buying it." And he stormed out of the room So that that was one response But
there's a second
19:57
response we got which uh turned out to be interesting At a certain point after we had done a
20:04
number of years of successful work in in doing the remote viewing we had to keep briefing
higher
20:11
and higher As you can imagine I hated briefing higher because if you brief a highle guy and
he says "Oh come on This
20:18
is nonsense This is BS." You know that's the end That's the end of your programs
20:23
So I got to the thought point where for example uh I briefed uh Bill Casey who
20:29
was director of CIA under Reagan and we had 45 minutes with
20:35
him and so went through stuff like I've been describing for 45 minutes he got so
20:42
entranced with it that he dismissed the rest of his afternoon calendar and we spent five
hours briefing him on that So
20:51
there was this funny thing where a certain level of people would just h this this can't be and
20:57
then really high level people seem to be more open to it So actually we came up
21:03with a hypothesis and that is okay people who make it to the top of the food chain might be
people who at some
21:10
level inside themselves are you know they're always making decisions based on insufficient
information and they end up
21:16
making the right decision That's how they got to where they are So maybe this is uh some
aspect that's at least at the
21:23
unconscious level happening all the time Well that finally got put to a test
21:29
because there were some parasychologists who did some experiments uh with a meeting of
uh CEOs of I think it was 67
21:38
CEOs of major corporations and had them try to guess the numbers that were going
21:43
to be generated on a computer the next day And so they did that and it turned out
21:49
that those who scored quite positively significantly so when we interviewed
21:55
them it turned out they were the people who had the businesses that were really doing well
and the people who scored
22:02
poorly had businesses that were kind of failing So these uh investigators would
22:08
ask them well you know what uh are you using do use ESP or something do you
22:14
have some glint of the future said "No no no no I don't believe any of that nonsense." But I
realize that when I22:21
trust my gut instinct I'm usually right So anyway that sort of leads to the eye
22:27
that this this is a a broadly uh available phenomenon that Yeah Do you
22:34
think that this is an emerging aspect of human consciousness or do you think that this is
something that maybe we
22:42
developed a long time ago but lost because of communication because of the written
22:49
word because of our ability to express ourselves that we stopped communicating
22:54
with the mind I think your second uh interpretation is
22:59
is is the correct one because probably you know when you're out in the jungle and there's a
tiger coming down the
23:04
trail that you don't know about quite you know it would be a thing that you would could really
help you exist and
23:12
survive But once we get into language and technology and so on you know that sort
23:17
of nonetheless we we found I'll I'll tell you what was the most mind-boggling
23:24
thing in the whole program was the following We had a few
23:30
people who did really well So of course CIA wanted to know well we we'd like to find people
in CIA23:37
who could do this So uh give us a full medical roundup of these people So we
23:45
got a full medical including seven layer brain scans Uh and they came back and
23:51
said well these are just normal people So oh well may maybe it's psychological
23:57
or neurological or whatever So they did all those experiments and they said these are just
24:03
normal people So we wondered well does that mean that normal people could could
24:10
do this even if they didn't know about it So about that time uh we said okay well let's let's just
24:16
bring in some people from SRRI uh labs uh who never thought about ESP who never
24:23
thought about any of this stuff So I remember we had a woman Hela Hammed and
24:29
we asked her to uh come uh volunteer for an experiment She said what kind of
24:34
experiment said "Well it's sort of like an ESP experiment." And she give me a break I don't I
don't believe in that
24:40
stuff And okay but but do it anyway And so uh one of the first experiments we
24:47
did with her and we have a wonderful diagram of of of what she did we sent
24:53
somebody out by our usual random protocol to a overpass over a24:58
freeway that's uh all fenced in with a very interesting
25:04
structure And she made a drawing of all of that and said uh you know this kind of trough up
in the air but it's got
25:11
holes in it so it couldn't carry water there's something going by really fast I mean she really
nailed the place And so
25:19
we got the idea and that was the biggest discovery in this whole thing was that apparently as
with
25:26
say athletic ability or uh musical
25:31
ability there's a bell curve and you got superstars at one end you got duds at
25:37
the other but to some degree anybody could do it So that had a lot of
25:43
uh outcome later on in the program when finally well to give an example of a
25:49
real world world result a Soviet plane went down
25:55
somewhere in Africa That's all we knew Somewhere in Africa plane went down So
26:00
Stansville Turner who was Carter's uh CIA director knew about our remote viewing program
And so he said "Uh well
26:09
you've got these quote remote viewers are supposed to be so good Why don't they find the
plane for you?" So in fact26:17
uh we had a remote viewer at our lab and at that time we were working with uh
26:23
Wright Patterson Air Force Base Foreign Technology Division They had a remote viewer So
we target these two remote
26:29
viewers All they knew is a plane went down somewhere in Africa hundreds of thousands of
square miles And uh make
26:37
long story short they describe how it looked and put an X on a map that was 3
26:42
miles from where the plane landed We were told that would never be revealed
26:47
to the public But it turned out that after Carter got out of office he was giving a speech in uh
Georgia someplace
26:54
and somebody said "Well anything happened while you're present?" That was really strange
He oh yeah we there
27:01
Soviet plane went down in uh Africa and was full of electronics and we wanted to
27:06
get it and nobody knew where it was and the satellites couldn't find it because of all the
vegetation and but we had
27:12
some remote viewers so-called and they pinpointed where it was and we went in
27:18
and got it before the Russians could find it So I mean the real world consequences came out
of this stuff So
27:25when Carter said that was that a breach of confidence that was a breach of
27:30
security But a president can they're allowed to do that They're allowed to do that Don't tell
Trump
27:38
Right So So you the the United States was able to go and get this jet and
27:44
Right So by then TU Tu22 bomber I think it was Yeah So this has realworld uses
27:53
So this this remote viewing so do they invest more time and more effort into
27:59
this now Are there still skeptics well we pretty much handle the skeptical
28:05
problem And let let me let me give you an example I mean as we're turning out these results
as you can imagine
28:13
anybody you know didn't have direct knowledge of this would would be skeptical And rightly
so by the way I
28:20
mean I was skeptical every inch along the way as we plowed our way into this stuff So one
day uh a guy shows up from
28:28
CIA and says "Okay uh I'm here to find out what the fraud
28:33
is I'm sure this is absolute nonsense." So I said "Okay fine So show me one of
28:40
your experiments." So you know we put him in the lab with an interviewer and another and a
remote viewer And uh in
28:48this case I'm sent out someplace and uh for 30 minutes and I come It turns
28:54
out that the remote viewer described it really well And he said "Well you
28:59
probably told him where you're going to go." Uh let's do another experiment and
29:05
I'm going to go and we'll go in my car because you might have had a you know transmitter in
your car transmitting
29:12
where you're where you're going So I'm going to pick the side So we do another experiment
get a great
29:18
result So finally he says "Well I got to figure out what's what's wrong with
29:23
this." So my colleague Russell Tar and I sat down to know this guy's a hard case
29:29
but we got the bell curve Who knows maybe somewhere in the middle of the bell curve So
he comes in the next day
29:35
and we say "Okay um today you're going to be the remote viewer." And he said "Give me a
break I
29:43
don't believe in this BS He said much more strongly than that actually And I said "No okay
Well just just try it
29:50
You'll see we're not stressing him out and whatever whatever whatever." And he says
"Okay." And
29:57
uh when you go to your place I want you to take pictures and do a recording and30:04
when you come back show me your stuff before I show you mine Okay fine Well it
30:10
turned out we went to a playground with a merrygoround Meanwhile back in the lab
30:15
he's drawing a picture of a playground with a merrygoround And he sees the results and
30:21
he says "Okay you've convinced me." So it was that kind of thing that would push him
30:29
over Yeah There there's an example Now he misinterpreted what it was He thought maybe it
was a cupula or
30:36
whatever But anyway that's his drawing on the right and that's where we were on the left
And so he said so so he went
30:42
back to CIA and said "Okay this stuff really works." And uh he became one of
30:48
their star remote viewers over the years Wow So a skeptic became one of their remote
viewers Yep Sure did What is the
30:54
process what is the process for a person to remote view like is there a state
31:00
that you have to go into is there a method to getting into that state there is a method and it's
different from what
31:06
you might think You might think uh you would say to somebody okay we've got somebody to
decide kind of imagine where
31:13they are and see what it looks like and tell us what you find and all that kind of kind of stuff
They're usually wrong
31:20
when they do that because their imagination comes into play and they make up something
or whatever But what
31:25
we found out in the research you it took years and a lot of trials was that you
31:31
get a visceral response to a site It's not that you get necessarily get an image So in fact we
we we told them you
31:39
know if if you get an image just put it down the right hand side of the paper because it's
probably wrong Instead just
31:45
kind of put down your feelings as you get into the site And so you know if it's like water they
might do waves Or
31:53
if it's a mountain peak they might uh as Jacques described in one of your previous
broadcasts uh a mountain peak
32:00
and they just feel like drawing something like that So bit by bit the process is very much a
visceral feeling
32:09
process And so the training procedure has them sitting with pads of paper and
32:14
just making sketches and drawings and not trying to interpret what it is And
32:20
also being very uh not in a rush about it It's sort of like you've got a door
32:26and you drill a hole through and then drill another hole through and another hole through and
then finally the door
32:32
crumbles and then you've got a pretty good feeling for what the side is So so
32:37
the process that we use to train people involves this multi-stage process where
32:44
they're to go by feelings colors flashes of things You see a flash of piece of
32:51
metal don't try to turn it into a car or a bicycle or whatever So anyway it was a whole training
procedure that we
32:57
developed and eventually when we uh briefed uh the assistant uh chief of
33:04
staff for intelligence assistant director of intelligence for the army they said "Okay well then
we need to
33:10
have our people get involved in learning how to do this." And so they sent army
33:16
intelligence officers They picked out a bunch of them and said "Hey you've just volunteered
to
33:23
become a psychic spy." and say "Oh okay." And they sent them out to SRRI
33:28
and we ran them through this step-by-step training procedure and they
33:33
learned to do really really well I mean u Joe McMonigle who anyone who follows
33:39the literature is is known to be really an excellent remote viewer And so
33:47
uh give you an example Uh one time he said I mean we trained them and and and
33:54
and so they learned to do really well We set up a whole program and uh he said
34:00
"Okay the there's this site in the Soviet Union and they're making this
34:05
unbelievably giant submarine and it's made out of titanium
34:12
or something I mean it's bigger than any submarine that anybody's ever heard of."
34:17
And it's strange because the missile silos are on the top rather than along the sides And so I
gave this whole
34:24
description Of course we had to at that time we were briefing all the way up the National
Security Council And so they
34:30
looked at this This is this is nonsense But about a month later out rolls this
34:35
unbelievably giant submarine the Typhoon class submarine the largest submarine ever
made Uh indeed uh there are his
34:44
sketches and a lot of description that went along with his sketches There's a submarine on
the right And so finally
34:51
the people of the National Security Council said "Okay we better start taking this seriously."
So make a long
34:57story short he eventually Joe McMongle got a uh National Merit Award uh for over
35:06
200 great viewings he did for CIA National Security Council uh FBI I
35:15
mean you name it So anyway that grew into a whole industry This episode is brought to you
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37:12
only So this is still kind of a mis mystery even to you Even someone who has
37:18
studied this for this long you know that it works but you're not exactly sure how it's working Is
that a fair assessment
37:25
that's a fair assessment I mean when we as physicists we hate to say "Oh don't have a
clue." So well we now know
37:33
there's so-called quantum entanglement which is that things are37:38
seem to be connected at a quantum level across great distances and so the easy
37:44
answers well it must be quantum entanglement but you know that doesn't just words it
doesn't really tell us how
37:51
it works but but to give you an example we wondered how far you could go so we
37:57
did an experiment again with Ingo Swan who was such a really top level remote
38:04
viewer to view Jupiter planet Jupiter before the
38:12
flyby before the NASA flyby And uh so he did and he described Jupiter the way
38:20
anybody might you know red spot and all that kind of stuff And but he said "But but there's a
thin ring around Jupiter I
38:26
wonder if I went to Saturn by mistake but I really see a ring around Jupiter
38:31
And nobody knew about any ring around Jupiter Carl Sean happened to come by in the lab
He said "Oh what do you think of
38:38
this we we got this result." He said "Ring around Jupiter that's nonsense There's no But
when the NASA flyby
38:45
finally got there it turned out there was a ring small ring around Jupiter."
38:50
And so we got that in publication in in a book we wrote about all this stuff38:56
before it was known in in the scientific community So that's what we find out that
39:03
apparently even distances is not a big deal The other thing the other thing we
39:08
wondered uh I can tell you what it isn't Okay We thought maybe it was brain waves The
Russians came up with an idea
39:15
Well brain waves are low frequency long wavelength
39:21
Um they can seemingly get through some some aspects
39:28
of the environment So we came up with a series of experiments and one of them was okay
39:33
let's let's put our remote viewers on submarines take them to the into the
39:39
depths of the ocean because it turns out seawater is highly
39:45
conductive and so at the even at low frequencies even at brain wave
39:50
frequencies uh it would be a complete shield for that So we we we piggybacked on
somebody
39:58
else's experiments Steven Schwarz's experiments using remote viewers to go find
archaeological wrecks and uh
40:06
shipwrecks and so on which turned out to eventually be a successful experiment But anyway
we got to do two experiments40:12
We got pristine results even with them under there under the ocean water So we
40:20
know it's not ordinary electromagnetic functioning So we can strike one thing off the list Not
that we know what to
40:28
put on the list in its place other than you know it's it's it's got to be some
40:33
new field some quantum aspect that we don't understand Jen we don't understand but yet
you could repeat it But we could
40:40
repeat it Wow Now I I'll give you I'll give you another example of of of the
40:46
skepticism that we got And and by the way I I can't blame them Uh we had some
40:51
psychologists at uh SRRI and they said uh you've got that
40:57
stupid ESP experiment stuff going on and you know this is going to ruin our reputation
People think that we're you
41:03
know we're a non we're a nonsense place and so it's hurting our reputation Of course they
didn't know it was a highly
41:09
classified CIA program So anyway uh so our director said well what do you
41:16
think i mean h how would you know if this is false or whatever and he said
41:22
"Look make a list of all experiments places that have been uh41:33
investigated for those viewings and don't tell us which ones go with
41:39
which ones and we'll try to rank rank them for each place." And so they did that much
41:47
to their chagrin Seven of the nine were first place matches in a nine experiment
41:54
series Give you another example of of and by the way I I I can't I can't
41:59
complain about uh the skepticism I mean even as we're doing all this uh we
42:05
haven't lost our skepticism about how how could this be
42:10
Um but we finally we got into a spot
42:16
where the only thing that was secret about this program was that it was secret People heard
that we had these
42:23
people coming in and doing experiments but we weren't publishing anything So I went to the
CIA contract minor and said
42:29
you know you you've got to let us publish something because the only secret about this
project is there's a secret project So if we publish
42:36
something that that that'll handle that Did you want to do that to get more scientists involved
yes that was our
42:42
personal uh right aspect so that if there was actual data more people who42:47
were on the outside skeptical would say "Well hold on Why am I skeptical maybe perhaps
there's something to this." And
42:54
then you start considering your own life These moments of intuition weird coincidences
You're thinking about
43:01
someone they call you Yeah we all have this idea that there's something there
43:07
but we don't know what it is And but we're very skeptical of someone who tells us that they
can do it And that's
43:13
that's reasonable to to think that way And so in this case where we got permission to publish
something since
43:20
we're engineers Russell Tar my colleague and I are you know engineers and physicists we
wrote it up for the uh
43:28
proceedings the le e institute of electrical and electronics engineers This is an engineering
journal where we
43:34
had published technical papers So I said well we have a better chance there Sent it off to
them the editor was head of
43:42
communications at Bell Labs and he comes back and says "Well I don't I don't know." And
we said
43:48
"Why are you getting bad reviews?" And he says "Well actually I'm getting good reviews but
one really heavy hitter just
43:55gave me a one-s sentence review saying "This is the kind of thing I wouldn't believe in even
if it were true." What
44:01
does that mean so anyway we said "Look look I I understand your problem
44:07
look let us come and present this stuff to your engineers If they throw tomatoes
44:13
okay don't publish our paper but if they like it then then publish it So we went to Bell Labs
presented our data The
44:20
engineers were all excited trying to figure out what the mechanism could be and so on So
we figured we were home
44:26
free He said 'N I I still So then we pull out our trump card as always which
44:33
is okay look do your own experiments at Bell Labs Pick people from your engineers
44:41
Pick people from your offices to be to make up lists of targets Pick people
44:47
here to be your blind match group to see if they can match them up And if you get
44:54
results like we got then publish it If you don't don't He said "Okay that's
45:00
that that's fair." So it turns out he did the whole thing got the same kind of results we got Our
paper got published
45:07
1976 proceedings of the Ile E And so that suddenly got other people saying
45:13"Okay well maybe there really is something to this." So it turns out that
45:19
for those who follow the field know that Robert John and Brenda Dunn Robert John
45:24
was uh head of engineering at Princeton He had a student who wanted to do these
45:30
kind of experiments and he thought it was nonsense but they came out and heard our
briefing and he went back Long story
45:36
short he set up a I don't know 20-year program uh completely replicating our
45:42
remote viewing work and also doing uh effects on random number generators that
45:49
were quantum driven And so so the so-called PAR lab Princeton Engineering
45:55
Anomalies Research Lab replicated all of our work And so pretty soon it it's all
46:01
over the place So by the way at the end of the uh sort of cold war there where
46:09
there was a day taunt some of our remote viewers went over to Russia to talk to their remote
46:15
viewers and they traded war stories They they uh lived through the same kind of
46:21
kind of thing So there it is It's so interesting that we almost didn't
46:26
consider that Just imagine you not running into Ingo Swan You not asking
46:33him to affect that quantum chip Imagine where Russia's doing all this
46:39
stuff and the United States never gets involved in it at all That that could have happened
That could have happened I
46:45
mean it was really you know the tiniest flip of a coin that that that happened
46:51
So so what that means is uh for me personally is that even though I had no
46:56
interest in in all that kind of stuff this totally random event happened and
47:02
then once I've built up a reputation for being willing to take on things that are impossible then
that's why uh when the
47:10
UAP the UFO issue uh kind of rose up again who you going to call though al
47:16
put up Al I I get my call So what was the initial introduction to the UAP
47:23
phenomenon and when was this well there was an early introduction in
47:29
uh 2004 Uh well may maybe a little earlier in in
47:37
the 90s I was doing work for Robert Bigalow at Bigalow
47:43
Aerospace and uh in addition to his you know aerospace stuff he put
47:50
two units uh circling the earth and he made the47:56
uh module that got attached to the space station all that kind of stuff but he was also very
much interested in UFOs
48:03
and that kind of thing And so I was I was uh you know involved with
48:09
him And around that time I had gotten a call from somebody I knew in Washington
48:15
DC head of a think tank Uh I can't name him but he said "Uh I need you to come
48:21
to Washington to be part of a little project a little briefing." And I said
48:29
"No I don't have the time right now I'm just I'm just too busy." He says 'Look
48:35
come and it'll be the most important meeting you've ever had in your life Well since I had him
calibrated
48:44
because I had done other work with him and for the Navy and so on I said "Okay
48:50
I I'll I'll come." So so I showed up there
48:55
and I saw people some of whom I knew including my ex-contract monitor from
49:01
CIA people from DIA uh a lot of military people and so on So
49:08
he sat us all down and he said "Okay here's the deal Here's why I've invited you all here
49:18Let's just say he says that the United States Russia and
49:27
China have
49:32
obtained ET craft that have crashed
49:38
and we have proof of that Bodies that aren't
49:44
human And so the question is can this be released to the public what effect would
49:51
it have so I and and the other people I found out by talking to him later we
49:57
thought "Oh this is cool I mean maybe we can get you know some kind of disclosure here."
And
50:03
uh so he said "Here's here's what we're going to do We're going to make up a list of what
50:10
would be affected in the culture with this kind of a
50:17
disclosure And by the way at this point we still didn't know is is he saying that that's true stuff
or is he this a
50:23
hypothetical or anyway so anyway make a list So we came up with a long list like
50:29
I don't know 60 items or something You say "Oh wow uh stock market might be affected
religious might be affected
50:37
uh you know whatever government government affected policies be50:44
affected you know politics would certainly be affected and then for each item we had to go
give it a score from
50:52
plus 9 to minus 9 as to how intense the effect would be and whether it's
50:57
positive or negative So anyway we broke up into groups and our group had our list of eight
or so And so we went down
51:06
our list and it turned out that we ended up saying
51:11
getting negative numbers And let let me let me tell you why you you can get negative
numbers One of the things down
51:19
toward the bottom of the list and we really got into the weeds was well suppose materials
from a crash
51:28
retrieval of a non human craft was given to corporation A but corporation B
51:37
didn't get any samples and then years later corporation A is making lots of
51:42
money based on what they got meanwhile corporation B has gone bankrupt and and Then
they find out they were excluded
51:50
Well they're going to end up suing the corporations suing the government I mean it really
gets gnarly when you get get
51:56
into the weeds and into the details And so as it turns out with our group of eight or so we
said you know this this52:04
we get a negative number Well it turned out that all the groups got negative numbers So the
outcome of that exercise
52:09
was if you're thinking about disclosure forget it That's Was this during George Herbert
Walker Bush's no
52:17
it was during Bush 2 Bush too George Bush rather George Bush Yeah W Um so
52:24
when this was all going on you still didn't know what they had
52:31
Didn't know what they had This was just they were saying this could be hypothetical or he
could be trying to
52:37
tell us something but he wouldn't say So interesting And how long how much time did they
give you to compile this list
52:43
and to generate these numbers of plus and minus it was two or three days I I don't uh recall
right now How did you
52:50
attribute numbers to things like the stock market how did you figure out how that would be
negatively or positively
52:56
you know it was just a gut response basically Uh you remote viewed it No no
53:03
didn't do that No but did you by the way in the remote viewing program one of the things they
told us look you guys that
53:09
are running this program don't you ever think about remote viewing yourself We learned in
the LSD days that if the53:17
experimenters get involved in the subject they're researching they lose their objectivity And
don't think you can
53:24
sneak away and get away with it because we'll get you on the polygraph And so so no never
never did Don't remote view
53:30
yourself What What a bizarre thing to tell someone That's what they that's what they said So
So anyway but anyway
53:36
back back to this uh we so we came up with our numbers and and said you know
53:41
this does not look like a good idea So at that time that that was the viewpoint
53:47
Now as we'll get into at this point I have a different viewpoint I think there should be more
53:54
disclosure than than uh is apparent in Well I think that's that's much more
54:00
common much more common thought is more more common with not just academics but
54:06
even government people even government people right I think more in fact I have I have a
great example of that and that
54:11
is uh Edward Teller father of the Hbomb
54:16
uh involved in the Manhattan project you'd think if anybody wanted to keep secrets about
national security it would
54:23
be him one of the strongest statements he made which actually was kind of a driver54:28
in my shifting my viewpoint about well should we come out with this or not he said you
54:35
know in exploring uh nuclear energy we had the Manhattan project highly
54:42
classified but nonetheless we and the Russians kind of marched along step by
54:48
step but in electronics we didn't classify
54:54
electronics you know circuit boards and all that kind of stuff and we took off like a rocket and
left Russ Russia in
55:00
the dust So his viewpoint was that having more openness even in national security areas
55:08
is a better bet And so that made me think even though I'd been part of as it
55:14
turns out decadesl long highly classified not for the street
55:22
UAP investigations uh that that sort of affected my
55:28
thinking about it and I became more uh open to the idea that uh you know we should do that
So but the way uh the way
55:35
I I got actually more officially involved was that as it turns out in
55:41
2008 I think it was Harry Reid who was at the time
55:47Senate Majority Leader uh Daniel Inui from Hawaii Ted Stevens from
55:55
Alaska Uh they're part of the gang of eight so-called so they get better
56:01
briefings than most people on what's going on behind the scenes So at that point you might
56:10
think well UFO stuff I mean that's all dead Let me give you a little background
56:15
first and that is you know back in the 50s and 60s we had project sign project
56:21
grudge project blue book and then they had the condant committee at University
56:26
of Colorado examine the area and say uh he came out with this thing saying oh
56:33
there's nothing here it's not not worth the air force spending any time on it actually the
Condan report if you read
56:40
it there's a deep report showing all kinds of reasons why this is real And
56:46
then there's the forward which most media read in which he said "Oh nothing
56:51
here Don't worry about it." So after 1969 which is when that report came out
56:57
if you called uh Air Force uh public affairs off and said "Well what's going
57:03
on with UFOs?" Oh no no we give up all that stuff uh back in 1969 The truth of
57:08the matter is that the very memo that cancelled Blue Book by General Bolander
57:15
uh had down the fine print but anything that might affect national security we
57:21
should keep track of So so now we come up to you know
57:27
2017 These senators who knew that there was still stuff going on decided there
57:33
should be a new program And so they asked uh the top physicists at DIA Jim
57:42
Latsky uh who is one of the top physicists on propulsion and rocketry and so on to put
57:49
out a request for proposal And so that went out and so actually Robert Bigalow
57:56
picked it up and he said "Okay we'll we'll do this." And so
58:02
uh he then got the program and since I'd been involved with Bigalow he asked me
58:08
to be part of the program So that's when I got you might say officially involved in and really
digging into the the issue
58:16
And what was your perspective at that point so you you had this thing during the George
Bush administration and what
58:24
was your perspective after that conversation did you think what maybe they do have
something
58:31the crash Roswell site maybe something else did you know more from other talking to other
people had you heard
58:38
whispers like what did you know what I knew was not much I mean yeah I heard
58:45
whispers Uh but I didn't get you know really involved in in thinking about it
58:51
I mean you know a good physicist realizes this is tinfoil hat conspiracy stuff you know But
you had already had
58:58
experience with remote viewing seem already got that problem
59:05
So uh but when they came up with the idea we should do another deeper dive into
59:11
this and by that time I was uh you know I mean as a physicist I mean through the
59:18
years I mean I was a Star Trek fan and you know Star Trek fan and all that kind of stuff and
uh as a physicist uh I
59:27
would hear about these UFO sightings and so on So I always wondered about you
59:32
know how how how can this uh you know could somebody really have
59:38
any kind of propulsion that that would look like that and so anyway uh so when this program
got set up it
59:47
turned out my particular assignment was
59:55okay let's look at all the physics and engineering that might be behind this
1:00:01
stuff And by the way we will arrange for you to get access to some
1:00:07
materials Uh okay fine So that that was my tasking and so I said "Okay." So I
1:00:14
can't get into a lot of detail but I did uh do a lot of
1:00:21
uh back and forth with some aerospace executives about getting access in case
1:00:26
they had any materials and that kind of stuff And it's very So they finally said "No it's uh if
1:00:35
that were the case it would be too compartmentalized We we we can't share this even
though you have an official
1:00:40
program I mean you got Top Secret SCI Gamma HCS it's got all these
1:00:48
clearances but if we had materials it'd be too highly classified We We couldn't share
1:00:55
them Geez So a lot of negotiation went on I'm a lot of time with the vice president unless
there's something to
1:01:02
negotiate about Exactly If there was nothing to negotiate about you'd say "How we don't
have materials." You
1:01:08
wouldn't say "You don't have enough clearance for us to even discuss this." Exactly And so
already they're tipping
1:01:14their hat They're already tipping their hat So anyway the second uh place to go
1:01:20
then was okay they're not going to share their
1:01:26
materials I'm almost assuredly have them Um suppose they had shared them What
1:01:33
would we have done well we would have gone to subject matter experts all around the world
We'd
1:01:41
give them some materials We'd say you know this came from a Russian sub or you
1:01:47
know whatever Give us your best output and so on So I said "Okay since we're not able to
1:01:55
get materials and share them um let me go to all of the subject
1:02:03
matter experts that we would have gone to and say we're doing a survey for Bigalow
1:02:11
Aerospace He wants to know where were your field be in the year 2050."
1:02:18
So we figured okay we'd get the best sort of assessment of possible futures
1:02:24
for their fields And and uh I realize you probably don't uh have
1:02:31
immediate access to this but just to give you an idea some of the papers that we got by
1:02:38
going out to these people I mean and you'll see how serious we were A neutronic fusion
1:02:44propulsion superconductors and gravity research posetron aerospace
1:02:50
propulsion warp drive dark energy extra dimensions advanced nuclear propulsion
1:02:56
Jamie's got it up here Yeah So so this is just the first few of
1:03:01
38 papers that I uh arranged for leaders to to come up with So this is based on
1:03:09
projections from where technology currently sits to if you extrapolate where it's going to be in
2050 based on
1:03:17
what they're working on right spacetime metric engineering traversible wormholes
1:03:23
stargates So you see we weren't uh kidding around Well when you started getting the warp
drive dark energy extra
1:03:30
dimensions brain machine interfaces Now did you ask
1:03:36
any of these so presumably this is just me from a civilian's perspective Presumably you have
some sort of a crash
1:03:43
thing you have to bring in people who make spaceships You have to bring in
1:03:49
people who make military jets advanced propulsion
1:03:55
systems Exactly That's those are the people that would be able to the people
1:04:00we had uh working on those papers were people from those communities How did they ch
this is the the conundrum that
1:04:08
if they did disclose and the companies that weren't given access to these materials did fall
apart and that the
1:04:13
companies that got access to these materials advanced and had spectacular
1:04:19
businesses How do they decide who it just assuming you would have something
1:04:25
how would you decide was it based on relationships like knowing that
1:04:30
someone could keep a secret like cuz you're dealing with outside the government now
Presumably if you if you
1:04:37
have a defense contractor they're that's an independent company It's not necessarily even
though they work
1:04:43
handinand glove with the the government they're not necessarily a part of the government
So So in fact if you put your
1:04:51
thinking cap on you would say okay this would be the way if you want
1:04:58
to keep it out of the public because you don't have to disclose it Yeah You don't have to give
it to a contractor Say
1:05:03
"Okay this is this is your stuff and uh from now on you own it." But how do you control that
though you you'd have to
1:05:10have government agents embedded deeply in that which I assume they do anyway
1:05:15
But you'd have to have intelligence agents deep I hope they do deeply
1:05:20
embedded in these defense contractors where they would make sure that they maintain
some sort of intense level of
1:05:28
secrecy That's exactly right And uh when you think about okay uh these days well
1:05:35
suppose we have some kind of disclosure
1:05:40
uh what are these companies going to do they've been hiding things or various parts of the
government been hiding
1:05:46
things um misappropriating funds lying to Congress lying to Congress So it's
1:05:52
you can see why it's such a big problem at this point Well that was that um
1:05:57
disclosure documentary that uh I saw you in as well that appeared at uh South by
1:06:02
Southwest which was excellent What is it called it's called uh The Age of Disclosure
Amazing documentary It's
1:06:08
amazing documentary Really hope that gets released somewhere big like Netflix or
something like that So people Well I
1:06:14
think uh I think Dan Farah who's the uh director and producer of that by the way
1:06:21a very well-known producer you know he he collaborated with Steven Spielberg on Ready
Player One which is the big hit
1:06:28
and so on And the approach he used which is really very clever uh he contacted
1:06:35
people like me people uh like Lou Alzando on and on and on and
1:06:43
uh said you know many of you don't want to come out really and reveal too
1:06:49
much podcast by podcast by podcast So tell you
1:06:54
what my goal he says I'm going to approach 38 of the maximum insiders and
1:07:03
by maximum insiders I mean it includes people like you know Senator Rubio of course
secretary
1:07:11
of state um Clapper who's you know
1:07:16
and I'm going to get all of you to collaborate on saying what your involvement was to agree
you can and you
1:07:23
know not say something and they ended up going to jail And uh and then we'll put
1:07:28
out maximum disclosure evidence all at one time in
1:07:35
this film and it'll include uh people coming forward like Jay Stratton who is head of
1:07:42
the UAP task force Uh he's been involved in this field for 16 years By the way he1:07:49
has a book about to come out also which will really be a disclosure So anyways
1:07:56
we'll put this together We won't talk about it along the way And so 38 of us ended up being
1:08:05
interviewed for the film Um telling whatever role we felt we could tell So
1:08:12
in fact when that film comes out that that's going to be disclosure on steroids I think that's
going to be the
1:08:17
maximum And well you saw the film so you know it's it's pretty pretty revealing It's very well
done Yeah very well done
1:08:24
So for your own personal journey into this stuff you're initially introduced
1:08:29
to it because they're talking about disclosure You rate the pros and cons and then when do
you get introduced to
1:08:36
it again well it was when basically when Robert Bigalow uh got the contract that uh
1:08:45
Harry Reid and the other senators uh asked And how many how much time has passed well
that was in 2008
1:08:55
So a couple and so that went up through
1:09:01
2012 and then ATIP which you may have heard of that Lisando ran sort of picked
1:09:07
up there to keep the ball rolling forward And now it's been revealed by the way uh only only
recently that when1:09:16
the funding dried up it dried up for the reasons you might think of and that
1:09:23
is it was so highly classified that when congressional
1:09:28
statements came down that okay we need so much money for this it didn't actually describe
it was
1:09:34
just advanced propulsion and all that kind of stuff So another group picked up the money
and said oh well that's what
1:09:40
we're working on propulsion things so you know but it wasn't the real deal and
1:09:46
so you know what do you do at that point do you go now wait a minute this was really for this
well no then you'd be re
1:09:52
revealing what this was really for so so anyway that sort of uh ended that way
1:09:57
but anyway so based on that we then as a group went to as a turns out the
1:10:05
department of homeland security to set up a whole new program and uh it was
1:10:11
going to be a special access program It was under a name which can
1:10:18
now be revealed because arrow the advanced aerospace or let's see advanced
1:10:26
anomalies aerospace resolution office has revealed it It was called Kona
1:10:31Blue And uh we built up a stack of documents that would go to the ceiling
1:10:36
here about what needed to be done what we were going to do how it should be done who
should be involved Uh so at
1:10:44
this point you're convinced that this is a real phenomenon At this point I'm convinced that
there's a real phenomena
1:10:50
I mean you know how far can I go i mean I can I I can
1:10:55
say I interacted with for example Dave Grush that you've had on your program
1:11:00
before who is really a highlevel intelligence officer People in the
1:11:05
public can hardly have any idea how high a level intelligence officer he was He
1:11:12
prepared briefings for the president He was uh top UAP investigator for NRO the
1:11:20
National Reconnaissance Office and then transferred over to NGA the National
1:11:26
Geospatial Intelligence Office and so on And so in that role he was asked he was an official
1:11:33
part of the UAP task force asked by Jay Stratton to find out what's going on behind the
scenes at these
1:11:40
superclassified levels And he did And uh so that's why you know he eventually
1:11:46
came out in that August 20231:11:51
congressional hearing under oath saying "Yep I've talked to more than 40 people
1:11:58
who are directly involved in the program." Well I know Dave I know many
1:12:04
of the people I know many of the programs that uh he's involved in And so there really is
something to it And uh
1:12:10
it's only a matter of time before it comes out I don't think I don't think you can put the
toothpaste back into the
1:12:16
tube frankly Well it seems like people don't want to Uh and I think there's so many more
people that are openly
1:12:23
discussing the possibility or what this is maybe not even the possibility of it but but
addressing that there's
1:12:30
something going on So what is it is it interdimensional is it intergalactic
1:12:36
like what is it that's that's just such an excellent question because the problem is there's
1:12:43
an embarrassment of riches these craft you know which in the old days you
1:12:51
know farmer in the fields that someone was streaking across the sky and you know I don't
know what to think you know
1:12:58
you could sort of blow it off but because our own detection equipment has really
1:13:05
marched up into unbelievable sophistication Uh and so now we have1:13:11
these really advanced sensor systems Fleer forward-looking infrared radar
1:13:16
high quality radars satellites Ratcliffe has ad
1:13:22
mention has has admitted that satellites have picked up uh evidence of these of
1:13:28
these craft and these craft have interfered with uh military
1:13:35
exercises as we all know from uh say the Nimtts and the gimbal and the go fast
1:13:42
videos that you know made it out into the public in in 2017
1:13:49
Um so it's it's really out there now at this point that there that there's that
1:13:55
there's a reality here And so uh that's where we are at this point One
1:14:01
of the more spectacular ones you um talked about the Nimtts the the Commander David
Fraver experience So
1:14:08
they're flying over the water out outside of San Diego outside San Diego
1:14:14
and they think they see something below the surface and which is large and then
1:14:20
this 20 foot tic tac looking thing that's hovering over the water that
1:14:26
seems to turn towards them and recognize that they're uh it jams their radar It1:14:33
does something to block their ability to detect it They have it on screen They
1:14:39
have video of this thing There's eyewitnesses of this thing They track it on radar going from
above 50,000 feet
1:14:45
down to sea level in a second They they don't know what it is It takes off at an
1:14:51
insane rate of speed It goes to the cat point where they were supposed to meet up So they
have all this data about this
1:14:59
thing that behaves in a way that's impossible with our current understanding of propulsion
systems
1:15:05
right and of course in the program we interviewed uh the pilots about their experiences and
so on and and so you
1:15:13
can't blame a pilot He says look this thing was at you know 80,000 ft or whatever when he
first detected it
1:15:18
Suddenly it's down there right above the water and then it takes off and does a right angle
turn at Mach 3 Uh you know
1:15:26
this stuff is just way beyond our physics Of course to a physics nerd like me So yeah now
wait a minute if it's
1:15:33
real it's physics right can't be beyond our beyond our understanding but it's beyond our
engineering So in fact in
1:15:42
that series of uh papers I showed you that the 30 38 papers by the way um1:15:49
there's a little side story there It's interesting And those 38 papers were then posted None
none of these people
1:15:55
who generated those papers had any idea it had to do with ETSs or UFOs or whatever
1:16:01
Uh they all went up on what's called the Jaywick server It's classified server
1:16:06
for the Pentagon and uh intelligence officers and aerospace contractors uh
1:16:12
you know could get access but nobody in the public could and usually those things go up
and they're up for you know
1:16:19
a little while and a month or so and they take them down This was such a popular set this 38
papers such popular
1:16:26
set that everybody screamed every time they tried to take it down And so it was posted there
you know like forever Uh
1:16:35
but eventually uh through Freedom of Information Act and so on most of those papers have
have have uh been released
1:16:43
And I I was concerned that oh my god these guys are all going to call me up and say "What
you didn't tell me this
1:16:48
had anything to do with ETSs or UFOs or but actually no Nobody seemed to uh yeah
1:16:54
not not complain about it So back to the question that you mentioned a little earlier though
about you know what's the1:17:01
source of this like I said it's an embarrassment of riches There's so much
1:17:06
observation uh you know the idea that it may be a
1:17:12
scout coming by from some other planet and checking us out and heading off uh or whatever
I mean there's much more
1:17:19
than that And of course as you know from interviewing Jacqu Valet he dug into the literature
and found out you know you
1:17:26
can go back millennia and see descriptions of exactly what we're
1:17:32
talking about today So as as far as where they come from
1:17:39
what they're doing here I myself have written a paper called
1:17:45
ultraterrestrials where I try to cover the gamut and I cover everything Yeah they
1:17:51
could be spacecraft from some other galaxy whipping through here Uh or maybe
1:17:59
there's some Atlanteans left over from eons ago and they're just kind of hiding
1:18:04
out in the seabed or on some mountain range someplace Or maybe some ET group
1:18:10
uh showed up here thousand 2,000 3,000 years ago and they're hiding out with
1:18:17some bases locally and so on Uh and of course we have a fellow by the name of a
1:18:22
professor by the name of Masters who who thinks that well maybe it's uh time travelers from
the future coming back
1:18:29
And then there's the whole idea since physicists like to talk about in additional dimensions
you know maybe
1:18:35
they come from another So anyway then in my ultraterrestrials paper I list every
1:18:40
one I can think of and say you know we should be exploring all of these So at
1:18:46
this point I would say we know it's NHI non-human
1:18:51
intelligence but it's not clear what the source is maybe at a higher level of uh
1:18:58
classification than I had access to Maybe it's it's known But right now I I'd say we we we
don't Do you have a
1:19:05
suspicion
1:19:11
i guess my suspicion that it's
1:19:18
likely non-human intelligence from some other galaxy or far out in our own
1:19:27
galaxy that have come here but some time back and that there are stations here Uh
1:19:36
you know I mean one of our remote viewers that was that was really good1:19:44
came up one day and said "I was looking around and and I think I found a UFO
1:19:50
base on Earth." This is during the remote viewing era And uh you know oh my god
1:19:57
I've I've got to report this to my CIA contract monitor Do I want to tell him
1:20:02
that and so I did And the play one of the places he came up with some but one
1:20:08
of the places he came up with was uh Mount Zeal in Australia And so my CIA contract
monitor
1:20:15
says well I know this station keeper CIA station keeper out in Australia I think
1:20:21
I'll call him and uh I won't tell him why I'm asking but I'll ask him about Mount Zeal area So
he gave him a call
1:20:28
and he said uh I'd like to ask you about that Mount Zeal area He said "Oh you mean where
the UFOs are always flying
1:20:34
around?" Whoa So I thought "Oh gee." You know so
1:20:40
I Anyway I This was from Pat Price I I take him seriously Let me give you an anecdote I
mean I know it's hard to
1:20:47
believe that this some of this stuff could possibly be real But here was a
1:20:52
real game changer for me One day Pat Price during the remote viewing program came in the
office and1:20:59
he said "Uh I got bored last night." So I started looking around and I decided
1:21:06
to look at the Oval Office And as I kind
1:21:11
of did my way around the Oval Office I realized there's something in the Oval
1:21:18
Office that will harm him and he will not get through his second term
1:21:24
And I'm thinking to myself "Oh my god you know I have to report that to a CI contract man
which which I did." And so
1:21:32
they sent a team over and looking for you know hidden microwaves hidden toxic
1:21:37
substances and they didn't come up with anything Of course as we now know from history it
was the tape recorder that
1:21:44
did him in And he couldn't make it through a second term because he So this is during
1:21:50
the Nixon administration Nixon administration Oh and so interesting enough when he
reported that to oh my
1:21:56
god that means um Spyro Agna will be president because he was the vice president and he
says no
1:22:03
he goes first Now it turned out he did go first because of some money laundering scheme
1:22:10
So when I sit down and try to say okay what are the statistics of having somebody see that a1:22:18
president is going to make it through his next term and his vice president is not going to take
over because he goes
1:22:24
first I mean the odds of that I mean there just no doubt that that that means
1:22:29
it's really something Well especially when you consider Nixon was one of the most popularly
elected presidents ever
1:22:37
right i mean he won by an enormous margin That was the whole where the vice
1:22:42
president's or the the other uh candidates vice president had electroshock therapy that
hadn't been
1:22:48
revealed Yeah Right Yeah And it turned out people were very concerned that he was
mentally ill but it was too late to
1:22:55
replace him They didn't know what to do They finally replaced him but it was too late That's
right I remember that Yeah
1:23:02
That was a big part of the whole thing So now one thing you may be surprised to
1:23:09
learn and you you you've asked me from time to time well you know what did I think as I'm
facing into all this
1:23:17
stuff we obviously as physicists think about time going forward reasonable way
1:23:24
and as I mentioned the Princeton lab got involved uh Robert John at
1:23:32Princeton was very good in quantum theory and so on And he knows that in quantum theory
time is kind of a
1:23:39
slippery slope Uh you know we have the space-time metric and the possibility of maybe
1:23:45
seeing something in the future or something in the past And so he did a series of remote
viewing
1:23:51
experiments very much like like what we were doing but sometimes he would have
somebody go
1:23:58
to a site and then wait a week and have somebody describe where the person went
1:24:03
or he might have somebody describe where a person went but the person didn't go
1:24:08
until a week later And so he did a lot of experiments which by the way were
1:24:14
good enough He also got it published in the proceedings of the ITLE E Institute of Electrical
Electronics Engineers a
1:24:20
couple years after our paper like 78 or so And so it it turned out that the
1:24:26
results either looking a bit into the future a bit into the past didn't uh the
1:24:32
results were just as good So that sort of helped solve another
1:24:37
problem for us because we were always uh I mean I can't blame the skeptics
1:24:44coming forward In fact our our favorite phrase is as far as remote viewing goes
1:24:50
there are two outcomes People investigate it know it works people who
1:24:55
don't and know it can't and that sort of so anyway you know a big thing that we
1:25:00
always got pushed on was well if these people are so psychic why aren't they rich why aren't
they at Las Vegas why
1:25:07
aren't they doing silver futures or whatever so well it turned out I had a chance to test that
because uh as it
1:25:15
turns out my wife uh Adrien Kennedy was uh on the board of uh a new uh grammar
1:25:23
school that was being set up in the Bay Area where we were at the time And
1:25:29
uh so I uh was trying to raise money because they were about $25,000 short
1:25:37
And so uh I uh went to a wealthy dentist I knew of and said uh you know would you
1:25:42
mind giving $25,000 for this school that's just being set up we're short And
1:25:48
he says "No wait a minute I know who you are You have that ESP program over at SRRI
don't you?" And I said "Yeah." He
1:25:54
said "Tell you what I do silver futures If you can get your ESP people to tell
1:26:00
me what's happening each day the next day in silver futures I will follow what1:26:07
you tell me." And uh and I'll bet on it and see if I make
1:26:15
money based on that And tell you what whatever money I get I'll give your school 10% of
what I make and don't
1:26:22
worry if I lose money I won't charge you something So anyway that that was interesting Well
by now in the program
1:26:29
we recognize that okay there's the bell curve sort of anybody can do it to some degree So I
simply went to the board of
1:26:35
directors of the school and uh said um we're going to go into silver futures
1:26:44
to make our missing $25,000 but I'm not going to ask you
1:26:50
what you think the market's going to do the next day because that'll depend on what you've
read or what you hope for or
1:26:55
whatever whatever whatever We're going to do something different I'm going to pick a
couple of
1:27:01
objects objects that are very different from each other I'm going to label one of them mark it
up I'm going to label
1:27:08
the other one mark it down And I want you to describe to me
1:27:14
today the object I'm going to show you tomorrow which would depend on what the market
1:27:20does And so uh okay And for a crash course I gave
1:27:26
him this uh shortened version of how you know don't don't try to image it just try to
1:27:32
get it's a visceral thing How do you feel about it what is the sort of texture of it and so on And
uh Jamie can
1:27:40
you can you pull up that uh first of the it shows the
1:27:49
uh the figure wooden figurine and the uh tape
1:27:54
measure if you could show that Yeah So on a given day I have two objects and of
1:28:00
course they're different as they can be in case you get a lousy description or whatever So on
a given day that's a
1:28:06
couple of objects I picked out And I labeled the one to myself I labeled the one on the left
mark it up the one on
1:28:15
the right mark it down But they have no idea what my
1:28:20
objects are right so the next day you get the following slide That's
1:28:26
the last slide Do you have the following slide um I
1:28:32
have I have a previous slide Yeah Is that it is that what you're looking for that's it Okay And
so uh I had seven
1:28:41viewers and on this particular day five of them didn't turn out much but one of
1:28:46
the viewers said "I've got something all squirreled up in a can all wound around
1:28:53
and I hear the words one two three," said rhythmically Tape Oh yeah The
1:28:58
second guy same thing and cans all something all around it So that's what I go with Anyway
make a long story short
1:29:05
30 days in the market we made $260,000 for the investor We got our 10% which is
1:29:11
$26,000 So you got a bit of a bonus there for the school Why didn't you guys keep going and
get rich
1:29:18
well that I know everybody asked me that The truth matter it was it was almost a
1:29:23
24-hour a day job to do this And meanwhile we're back over at the lab training army
intelligence remote
1:29:30
viewers how to how to remote view So uh clearly that wasn't your ambition Your
1:29:35
ambition wasn't to get rich but you proved your point I proved my point So so now
1:29:42
when going into the future you're you're reasonably certain that these things
1:29:48
this is a real phenomenon Do you ever get access to these materials that you were
discussing earlier did you have you
1:29:54ever seen anything uh yes I have
1:30:00
Um one example I can talk about one sample I can talk about is uh Are there
1:30:06
things you can't talk about there are things I can't talk about Right But there's there's one
sample I can talk
1:30:11
about which you could put up on the screen That would be that this right here It's right here
Yeah Right
1:30:17
Uh it turns out that uh an army uh person said that his
1:30:22
grandfather had been involved in picking up debris from the Roswell
1:30:28
crash and and so he sent it uh of all places
1:30:34
he sent it to Art Bell of the of the radio podcast the great
1:30:40
Art Bell So Artbell turned it over to Linda how Linda Linda so she's you know
1:30:48
got it and so she said she'd make it available and so on So about this time
1:30:58
uh I had already had my viewpoint shifted as I say by Ed
1:31:07
uh by Edward Teller about you know we should have more uh openness going on
1:31:13
And so in fact Tom Dong came along and uh you know the punk rock bleak 182 and1:31:19
said uh you know we we we should be by the way this is before even things came
1:31:24
out in the New York Times in December 2017 He says you know I've been talking to people
at some aerospace corporations
1:31:31
and they're saying how hard it is to get students to do their engineering and come to work for
us And so he said "Well
1:31:39
you know if there's anything to quote the UFO area you know maybe it could generate some
interest that way." And
1:31:47
so long story short he got Jim Simovan now retired high level person at
1:31:54
CIA got me Keep that up James And so
1:32:00
uh so anyway we started to the stars academy of arts and science And so we
1:32:06
were part of what was behind uh helping Leslie Keane get that story out in the
1:32:11
New York Times to to break out that something was really going on behind the scenes Back
to this material This anyway
1:32:18
on this material layered she had came up with this material How big is this what we're
looking at oh it's about it's
1:32:23
about this big So 4 in something like that Okay Pretty big And so it's got all
1:32:29these layers So on the one hand you can say well this is just a guy sending in some stuff uh
there's no chain of
1:32:35
custody right you don't know if he's a fraud making it up or whatever But anyway it turns out
those are layers of
1:32:42
titanium and bismouth So anyway we uh Tom Dong got got a hold of a copy and so we said
1:32:48
"Okay we're going to we're going to do everything we can to nail this down." So we actually
set up a contract with uh an
1:32:56
army office and then they uh arranged for Arrow
1:33:05
the all domain anomalies resolution office to consider taking this
1:33:11
seriously And uh so they arranged that this could be analyzed by Oakidge
1:33:18
National Laboratory And so we provided this uh to them to to analyze Okay And what were
1:33:25
the results well the results were that there's no obvious proof that it
1:33:31
comes from out of our solar system because there are various isotopes would be different if
it came from some other
1:33:38
solar system So that would be the first thing you'd look for to say "Oh this
1:33:43
really is ET." So that that didn't wash The second part though was a little more
1:33:49interesting and that is these layers of magnesium and bismouth I mean those are the size of
a human hair some of those
1:33:57
layers and they said uh well we can't find any evidence in the history of
1:34:03
development of materials of of materials like that and can't even imagine anybody want to
make
1:34:09
it Uh so it's just it's an anomaly So no
1:34:14
proof that it's ET but one of the things we did do he says "Okay well how hard is it to make
1:34:21
something like this?" And so we got an aerospace corporation to say "Can can
1:34:26
you bond Misizabeth and magnesium together you know sort of like what we see in this
sample?" Well they got two
1:34:35
layers bonded Cost them over a million dollars Broke down their instruments to
1:34:40
do it So it's still basically a mystery So we we got to read the report Uh it
1:34:46
was uh not totally provided to the public
1:34:54
but anyway was this about a quarter inch thick is that what we're looking at here yeah Yeah
it's about So how many layers
1:34:59
did they estimate i think we had in uh might have been 18 something like that
1:35:05We could probably count them So anyway so that that that's uh a possible
1:35:13
example but no no conclusion we come to So this is something that is of
1:35:18
terrestrial origin in terms of materials when you measure the isotopes but it's of a
construction method that's not
1:35:25
currently available That is a a perfect description of the situation And and by
1:35:32
the way certainly wasn't available back in the 40s and 50s when this supposedly was found
supposedly that's the problem
1:35:38
So when was this is analyzed in what year well analysis started taking place
1:35:45
um by Linda how at other laboratories I think in the years in the 2000s and we
1:35:52
got back yeah we we got it uh I don't know maybe 20
1:36:01
uh 2020 something like that So but whoever if if the chain of analy we got
1:36:07
it analyzed we got it analyzed only a couple years ago but if the chain of custody is accurate
it goes back far
1:36:14
enough where this is impossible right right and seemingly given the effort
1:36:20
that the aerospace corporation put in they can't even manufacture this today
1:36:26
right in that that level so this Roswell crash is the big one right that's the1:36:32
one that everybody knows out and it was in 1947 in Rosville New Mexico and the wreckage
was flown in two separate
1:36:38
planes to Wright Patterson Air Force Base which is unusual in and of itself and the idea was
that it's flown in two
1:36:45
planes just in case one goes down that this stuff is so important that we have to analyze it
That's correct What do you
1:36:53
think that was i think it was a
1:37:00
true non-human intelligence craft that um
1:37:06
crashed Uh we've talked to one of my colleagues
1:37:13
Eric Davis is one of my senior scientific adviserss He interviewed General Exxon
1:37:21
who had been head of Wright Patterson Air Force Base and so on and also uh
1:37:29
Deose So he's interviewed a couple of people that were involved back in in those days and
they they say it was the
1:37:36
real deal that this uh was a real unidentifiable crash and these materials
1:37:45
were really really from out someplace And
1:37:50
what did they say was done with the wreckage that had been taken to Wright Patterson1:37:56
Air Force Base for analysis and did anything come out of that analysis
1:38:01
not that the public would hear about Not that you can disclose Not not that I
1:38:07
could disclose That's where it gets frustrating So there was Well it gets it gets frustrating
even for I mean the
1:38:14
compartmentalization in this area is is really obscene So you can have people
1:38:20
sitting at this desk and someone else sitting in that chair and they don't
1:38:26
have access I can't tell him what I'm working on He can't tell me what he's working on And
so that's uh our going
1:38:32
forward with this is uh very very slow
1:38:38
and not opportune I would have to say And of course we have data can't go into
1:38:44
detail We have data about crashes in other countries So it's really clear that uh we're not the
only ones on the
1:38:51
planet So that's something to be concerned about because for example
1:38:56
here we have our capitalistic uh
1:39:01
competition aerospace corporations electronics corporations all being very
1:39:07hushed up and not sharing which stifles innovation stifles innovation Meanwhile
1:39:12
in China you got you put all the labs on something like this and say "And by the way don't
say anything outside that
1:39:19
you're not supposed to say or you know you're done." Uh and so the competition
1:39:25
that potentially could uninhindered Yeah Yeah So that's part of what's behind our
1:39:30
not revealing what we've learned because there might be some aspect that
1:39:36
we've learned which in principle you'd think well you could reveal but it might be the missing
piece that some potential
1:39:43
adversary said oh that's what we've been missing right so I'm so even though
1:39:49
generally speaking I'm of uh the feeling that there should be more disclosure I'm
1:39:56
also very tight on you know anything that could be potentially helpful to an adversary uh
1:40:04
in this area You know we're not going to reveal that would be a mistake So how do these
things keep crashing if they're so
1:40:11
good if they can get here from somewhere else why do they slam into the desert
1:40:18
some of them have just been left in the desert not crash
1:40:25Some of them some of them have just I talked to Diana Pasoko about this Oh okay And she
refers to them as donations
1:40:32
She said that's how they were described to her Yeah So in fact uh you know maybe maybe
1:40:39
some of them are donations uh to help us accelerate our forward motion or maybe
1:40:46
they donate something here something in China something in Russia and see
1:40:53
who is best at moving forward right just as part of their ISR evaluation of us I
1:41:01
mean let's let's let's face it We've had uh as as is known in the public we've
1:41:07
had UFOs come over our missile silos Uh one at Mount Air Force Base
1:41:14
that uh Salace has talked about Bob Salas they turned off all of our
1:41:20
missiles There's no way it could be launched In Russia there's even a worst
1:41:26
case They started the launch sequence in Russia at a missile silo nuclear missile silo
1:41:34
and the people at this at the location could not stop it could not turn it off
1:41:39
So they thought you know World War II is about to stop Fortunately it was turned
1:41:44
off So anyway you've got two things So they whoever was doing that whoever was
manipulating it turned it off That's1:41:51
right So there's a big question is there are two ways to look at that Yeah Right They're
friendly and benign and they
1:41:58
just want us to know that if we get too frisky down here and think about having a nuclear war
they can stop it
1:42:05
Or they might not be benign and the armada is on its way and they just want
1:42:10
to test that they can stop our use of nuclear weapons against them So it's from a security
standpoint and from
1:42:19
a DoD standpoint from intelligence community standpoint you always have to have the worst
scenario in your mind
1:42:25
right and see where you go Yeah Well I would imagine from a security standpoint
1:42:32
it's a nightmare because you're not secure at all If something can fly over your airspace and
you can't do anything
1:42:39
about it and it can shut down your missiles or turn them on you're in a very strange situation
1:42:46
That's true Where you're completely helpless dependent upon the whim of these beings
Exactly Or whatever their
1:42:54
mandate is whatever they're trying to do right what do you think they're trying to do here
1:43:02
i have thoughts going in many directions in answer to that question
1:43:09Um all the way from well they seated us here you know millennia ago and they're
1:43:15
just seeing how their pet petri dish is doing human beings the product of accelerated
evolution Yeah something
1:43:21
like that Uh but I mean it's it's really hard to know
1:43:27
I mean we it may be that we're a very special planet because we have all this water which
generally speaking is kind
1:43:34
of rare So you know maybe they'd like to slowly build up a connection with us so
1:43:42
that they could take advantage of direct access to some of our resources Don't know uh by
and large
1:43:51
interactions uh have not been what you might call negative I mean even when we shoot
1:44:00
missiles at them or whatever but there were a series of exper of events in
1:44:05
Calleris Island in Brazil back in the 80s I think it was
1:44:12
And as part of our program we investigated that in some detail where
1:44:19
over some long period like weeks and the Brazilian Air Force got
1:44:26
involved They got thousand hours of film and and
1:44:31
uh they put their a big air force group down there and the UFOs were coming over1:44:39
and sending out beams that were actually harming people That's our one example that that
stands
1:44:47
out of there being apparent experience uh episodes
1:44:53
where UFOs there's no way to interpret it but but as negative So that makes you
1:45:00
wonder well you know maybe they're just one particular group of right oh euphanauts that
are that are negatively
1:45:06
disposed but the rest of them are okay or so anyway that's well they're probably just like
humans in that regard
1:45:13
right there's humans that are involved in scientific research expeditions they go there not
looking to do any harm at
1:45:19
all and then there's humans that will go into an area where they're looking to extract
resources and all they want to
1:45:25
do is do that and anything that gets in their way you know is casualties Yeah
1:45:31
Exa Exactly So there's a lot I mean it's still a big area that needs a lot of
1:45:39
look see And uh interesting enough even though uh this has been a tinfoil hat
1:45:47
crowd kind of thing up until around 2017 when that New York Times story came out
1:45:54
Uh suddenly that really made a difference because the people that were1:46:00
coming on board that there's something real here were people like Senator Harry Reid and
other senators and so on And so
1:46:08
that sort of broken open that okay there there really is something here And so as
1:46:13
a result of that that's how some of these programs u have gotten you know pushed forward
and re reignited How many
1:46:20
of these crashed crafts do you estimate there are that human beings have
1:46:26
recovered more than 10 More than 10 More than 10
1:46:34
How many of them are in possession of people in the United States
1:46:39
i I meant more than 10 in possession of the United States What about worldwide
1:46:45
worldwide Uh do we have any data on that we have data but it's it's it's
1:46:50
classified There's no way to really talk about it But so there's more though You
1:46:56
could safely say it's not just the ones in the United States Not just the ones in the United
States And and these uh
1:47:02
are they equally distributed
1:47:07
my I I I actually I don't know for sure in terms of of data I mean we have our
1:47:14best data of course on our own retrievalss um but more than 10 retrieved in the
1:47:21
United States More than 10 ret What is your take on Bob Lazar
1:47:27
well we looked into the Bob Lazar story and uh but only you know from a certain
1:47:34
relatively superficial uh level Uh looked at uh well we found
1:47:41
out what his clearance levels supposedly were and so on which came back saying it
1:47:47
was not high enough to be doing what he says he was doing On the other hand it may just
simply be yeah it was better
1:47:55
than that but we didn't have the access to see that So when I when I hear his
1:48:00
physics descriptions uh it it's it's a puzzle It it seems not exactly as I would anticipate
1:48:09
u might be the technology behind the craft but I can't absolutely write them
1:48:15
off So it's just it's an enigma and I and I don't have any hard data to prove
1:48:21
one way or the other So it's uh I I I know you've you've talked to them and Yeah Um it's a
fascinating puzzle It is
1:48:29
a fascinating puzzle because that would be the place S4 would be the place where they
would do that kind of work
1:48:36I mean if you wanted to do something like that in complete privacy and secrecy you'd do it in
the middle of the Nevada desert Very protected That's true
1:48:43
Right outside of Area 51 So even when people that have high clearances go and say "Well
tell me
1:48:50
about this What what's what's behind this?" Who knows if it's a special access program an
SAP it might be say
1:48:58
"No we're going to tell you that." You know he he didn't do anything of significance here In
fact he might have
1:49:03
done something of significance There's just no way of telling from from the outside Yeah
Yeah So the the actual
1:49:13
generator the thing that powers the craft that Lazar talked about what was your take on that
this idea that it was
1:49:20
element 115 that when it encounters high radiation it has some sort of an
1:49:26
anti-gravitational effect some warp effect Well there are two two aspects
1:49:32
One is what is the material or mechanisms that generate the effects and
1:49:39
then the other is are the effects being described reasonable descriptions of the
1:49:46
kind of effects you think are associated with with such craft on the element 115
1:49:52As you know in the general scientific community we finally we've seen element 115 but you
know it's very short-lived
1:50:00
So it's hard to evaluate that And at this point there's no evidence that that that that's it So it
was we should
1:50:07
explain to people it was theoretical at one point until they detected it using was a large
collider or another particle
1:50:13
collider you know right now I think it was a particle collider in in Soviet Union or in Russia
and it's very
1:50:22
shortlasting but the idea is that what Lazar was in possession of or what the craft was
powered by was some sort of a
1:50:28
stable version of element 115 That's that that's what he says So in general
1:50:34
it was known that and predicted that there was an island of stability as we
1:50:39
call it on some of these higher uh elements in the periodic table that are
1:50:45
that are beyond uranium and so on Uh but really no data predicted as to
1:50:53
what their lifetimes would be And so element 115 is is is in that bunch And when he
1:51:01
first discussed it it hadn't been seen yet Or this is way back in 1989 Way back
1:51:06
That's right But eventually that element was detected Although the version of it
1:51:11that was detected had a very short lifetime but of course there may be some
1:51:16
other isotope of that element that could have have the long lifetime Who
1:51:23
knows so it's it's just hard to evaluate So it sits in my gray box as I say Uh
1:51:29
but his description of the anti-gravity effects and so on
1:51:36
that's an area that that that is well described as as what you might expect As
1:51:42
it turns out in that series of 38 papers one of my own papers uh that I provided
1:51:50
was one called space-time metric engineering And when the pilots came to me and said
1:51:56
uh you know drops down takes off right angle turn at Mach 10 uh you know this
1:52:03
is this is way beyond our physics and I said earlier you know I think it's not beyond our
physics beyond our
1:52:09
engineering but what I did on the physics level was all of our electronics that we have
1:52:15
here for example this microphone uh the recording uh that you're making and so
1:52:21
that's all based on electromagnetic kinds of technologies all of which come
1:52:26
out of Maxwell's equations Maxwell's equations clerk Maxwell way back in the
1:52:311800s developed the equations for electromagnetism and basically any kind of
electromagnetic device you name it uh
1:52:40
h Wi-Fi whatever can be traced back to
1:52:46
this equations So what I said to myself was okay we have these apparent craft
1:52:53
operating with this unbelievable kinds of activity Is there any way to account for
1:52:59
that in our physics well it turns out so what I did I took a sheet of paper and
1:53:05
the left hand side of the paper I wrote down all the weird effects that have been claimed You
know right angle turn
1:53:11
at Mach 10 Uh I got close to the craft and suddenly it wasn't the same size as
1:53:18
it seemed to be when I was further away Um it was a certain uh color but when I
1:53:27
got close to it it was it was a different color You know all these weird things To me to me the
weirder the
1:53:33
better because if somebody was just making up a BS story they wanted to sound rational So
you don't come up with
1:53:39
things like well I got in the craft five minutes went by I came out and two hours had gone by I
mean you know you're just
1:53:45
not going to make make that up Then on the right hand side of the piece of paper I said okay
we have Einstein's1:53:52
equations in general relativity and we use them to talk about black hole mergers or neutron
star mergers or
1:53:59
whatever Uh and all these things are massively energetic events
1:54:06
Suppose I could engineer Einstein's equations the way we engineer Maxwell's
1:54:13
equations for electromagnetic effects What would I expect to see and I find out I got a hand
and glove
1:54:21
match between what was claiming to be observed and you know what Einstein's
1:54:27
equation if you could engineer them Well why can't we engineer them well it what we at least
what we know today is the
1:54:35
energy density required to engineer those equations is just way beyond our
1:54:40
ability to do so So can you give me a comparison to what the energy requirements or
something like that
1:54:45
would be like yeah Uh people have have in fact uh Alcubier warp drive I don't
1:54:52
know if you've heard of that but a Miguel Alcubier um was a researcher in general
1:54:58
relativity and kind of a Star Trek fan and so on He said I wonder if we could really have warp
drive And so uh he used
1:55:06
Einstein's equations to say okay under what conditions could we do a warp drive1:55:12
and he actually came up with solutions from out of the equations Okay What
1:55:17
would it take to drive that oh it would be hundreds of times more than the
1:55:23
energy of the sun I mean wow Just out out of sight energy So uh you know until
1:55:32
we have a new energy source or until there's some backdoor that we haven't uh
1:55:38
you know sewered in on it's it's just really outside of our our expertise to
1:55:45
to think of There could be conceivably some breakthrough and an understanding of this
backdoor like whatever it could
1:55:53
be some new type of science some new kind of understanding And one of the
1:55:58
things that I've looked into myself is well what about vacuum energy so-called
1:56:05
uh as a quantum physicist we all know that uh you know
1:56:12
like you push a kid in a swing and it you know it it comes down and stops But at the quantum
level you get
1:56:19
something going it doesn't stop It always comes down to a certain level and it just it's still
there So it turns out
1:56:26
that what we call empty space is not really empty It's full of quantum
1:56:32fluctuations And in fact one of the difficulties of modern physics theory is
1:56:38
that when we go by using our standard quantum theory to calculate well what's
1:56:43
the energy density like right here or way out in empty space what's the energy
1:56:49
density of those quantum fluctuations it's 120 orders of magnitude
1:56:55
greater than could possibly be according to all of our other theories I mean it
1:57:00
would collapse gravity and everything else So so we have this conundrum that
1:57:06
that energy that is everywhere somehow all is random and
1:57:12
cancels out So you know it's just not having an effect So the idea is if you
1:57:18
could somehow access that energy um and cohhere it so to
1:57:24
speak maybe you could get to the energy I mean I What would that look like
1:57:34
well if I if I go off on a weird tangent I could tell you what it might
1:57:41
look like Uh along the way in the uh
1:57:47
remote viewing program where we're kind of looking at physical effects we decided to take a
look at
1:57:54uh so-called levitating saints Okay And so you know you'd think okay
1:58:01
well that's just that's a Catholic church trying to pretend it's got these magical people and
whatever whatever But
1:58:09
when you dig into the data you find it's that that isn't it It's that the church
1:58:15
hated the idea that some individuals were levitating because they might be in
1:58:21
the middle of giving mass and suddenly they you know float up or whatever So it turns out
that even looking in the uh
1:58:30
uh deep literature of the Inquisition and so on the evidence is really solid
1:58:37
that there have been levitating saints And uh what the Catholic Church usually did is they
squirreled them off
1:58:43
into some monastery where nobody see them because there When you say levitating like
what do you mean you mean like how far off the ground
1:58:50
sometimes Jaime's got something here Notable example happened during a visit to Italy
from the Spanish ambassador The
1:58:56
ambassador had visited Joseph in his monastic cell and was so impa impressed
1:59:02
that he wanted to return with his wife Joseph entered the church where the couple hoped to
meet him and upon seeing
1:59:08the statue of Mary elevated 10 ft into the air flew over the crowd to the statue prayed flew
back to
1:59:16
the door and returned home The church later took depositions from a number of people who
were there that day and their
1:59:21
stories were consistent And the year what year was this long time 1628 1628 So there are
enough
1:59:30
stories like that with lots of observers and the reporting under really excellent
1:59:37
conditions Okay Now that guy didn't have a nuclear power pack on his back So how
1:59:44
did that happen well the only uh thing I can think of in terms of the physics we
1:59:49
know today would be that somehow the vacuum energy which can be very high if
1:59:55
you cohered it and uh and if you made it non-random uh you know may maybe maybe
2:00:03
that could do it So perhaps he was able to access this with states of consciousness because
he was so devout
2:00:08
in his faith that upon seeing this the experience was so overwhelming that he
2:00:14
was somehow able to access this energy right and that ecstatic state is but it
2:00:19
would take this extreme belief this extreme commitment this state of mind
2:00:27that's very rare exactly that that's what it would take and you would follow
2:00:33
that when you did the experiments with the quantum chip you would say well if someone's
able to control oscillations
2:00:40
you're doing something with your mind that shouldn't be possible right and you're affecting a
physical thing that
2:00:46
shouldn't be possible And this is just someone who' never thought of doing
2:00:52
that before someone who didn't know that they were going This is so this is a physical
manifestation of the
2:00:57
manifestation the power of whatever unknown ability of the human
2:01:04
mind So since it's unknown uh you know there's no way we would know how to tap
2:01:10
it right and if these are very unique moments where this is a extremely devout
2:01:16
person who obviously was a monk was probably meditating and achieving this
2:01:22
insane state of consciousness that's almost impossible to get to unless you're committed as
long as he was
2:01:29
unless you're as dedicated as he was and then he has this overwhelming moment right and
I've no way to you know
2:01:36
connect the physics to it now The idea is that if there is energy that's allowing a person using
their mind to do2:01:43
this that somehow or another if this energy could be accessed through science through
physics through
2:01:50
engineering we tried to look into that uh for example uh Andre Sakarov a very
2:01:56
famous Soviet physicist said you know I don't think gravity is its own
2:02:03
thing I think really it's a manifestation of the underlying quantum fluctu
2:02:09
situations and so uh so I and some colleagues from Lockheed Martin and
2:02:16
elsewhere kind of looked into that uh option and u you know if we're just sitting here
2:02:26
uh talking and so on uh you know universe is full of quantum
2:02:34
fluctuations why don't I notice it on the other hand if you get into your uh
2:02:39
fastmoving car and you suddenly take off you're pressed back in your seat Well
2:02:46
what is it that's pressing you back i mean it isn't the wind You've got a windshield and a
cover Well there's
2:02:52
there's some modeling that says well maybe it's because if you try to accelerate through the
vacuum
2:02:58
fluctuations it will push back on you So that might be our first little touch
2:03:05that okay uh under conditions of acceleration we do notice the background
2:03:12
vacuum fluctuations Well since to a theorist uh inertia and gravity are you
2:03:18
know connected somehow then it makes you think okay well maybe there's some way of
accessing vacuum
2:03:25
fluctuations to control gravity That's what what we would like to think And so one of the
things we did in the program
2:03:31
was just collect every bit of data that we could So for
2:03:37
example when I went through my uh analysis of well if we could engineer
2:03:43
general relativity what we'd expect to see a number of things came out of it So for example
in this room most of the
2:03:52
electromagnetic energy we don't see It's in the form of heat and we don't see heat You know
you
2:03:59
get an infrared detector you can see it but we we don't see heat Well it turns
2:04:04
out that under the conditions in which you're controlling gravity the way these craft
2:04:12
appear to be doing one of the consequences and one of the attributes that goes along with it
is the
2:04:19
frequencies get raised And so the heat of a craft that
2:04:25you ordinarily wouldn't see can get raised up into the visible spectrum And so that's
2:04:32
why they might look so bright That also has certain other additional consequences That is if
it's powered up
2:04:40
and it's sitting there in the ground and you get too close
2:04:45
uh the ordinary heat spectrum which isn't harmful or the visible spectrum which isn't harmful
can be shifted up
2:04:52
frequency into the ultraviolet and soft X-ray So if you get too close to a landing craft that's
powered up you
2:04:58
might get a sunburn which is one of the things that has been reported or you might actually
in fact get uh radiation
2:05:06
poisoning from X-rays and and and so on So those kinds of things seem to go
2:05:13
hand inand give us some clues of where to look What is your take on the Travis Walton story
i think the Travis Walton
2:05:21
story is right on I I think that's a solid story It's a very I don't I I
2:05:27
don't have any as I have a bobblehead specific bobblehead Oh yes Okay That's
2:05:33
him He gave it to me I see Okay No I think I I all aspects that I've seen of
2:05:39
his story I I take that as for people that don't know the story I'll give you a brief synopsis or
brief uh breakdown2:05:46
of what it was They're loggers They're driving through Arizona They see this craft moving
through the sky and it goes
2:05:52
into the woods Um Travis gets out of the truck runs towards it gets too close to
2:05:58
it and is hit with some sort of a beam flies back falls down The other guys panic They take
off in the truck And as
2:06:05
they're taking off they're arguing that they need to go back and get him We need to go help
him We need to go back and
2:06:10
get him They're all freaked out They decide "Yeah we we got to go back." So they turn
around and he's gone They get
2:06:16
back to the spot The craft is gone and Travis is gone Um they reported everyone's freaking
out No one knows
2:06:22
They suspect they might have killed him or something 5 days later Travis appears wearing
the same clothes looking none
2:06:29
the worst for wear with this fantastic story that they took him aboard this craft And they
communicated with him and
2:06:35
fixed his body that something happened to him upon the impact of whatever that ray was
that hit him that he was going
2:06:42
to die They repaired him and they communicated with him and brought him back
2:06:48
Five days later he has this story And he's had the same story for decades And2:06:54
one of the reasons I accept that story is that for example the other people who left the site
and then went back they
2:07:01
eventually uh did polygraphs on them and they passed the polygraphs I mean they weren't
making up that story Polygraphs
2:07:08
are manipulatable You can manipulate Yeah you can But would I expect that some uh
unsophisticated loggers
2:07:15
sophisticated loggers would do it You know particularly one of the guys didn't even like
Travis One of the guys Travis
2:07:20
got into a fist fight with the actual day of the event Oh my Yeah And he also
2:07:26
told the exact same story right yeah So there was a lot going on with that one
2:07:31
Um and then there had been frequent sightings in that one particular area which is also
weird Like what is it
2:07:37
about certain areas i mean there's the area that you discussed in Australia
2:07:42
Well that would kind of make sense if There really is a base somewhere
2:07:48
you know and the the real thought that keeps getting brought about in the zeitgeist is the
ocean That's the that's
2:07:56
what people bring up all the time If you wanted to hide in plain sight where would you hide
well you hide in threequarters of the Earth's surface2:08:01
that we very rarely examine and the observation of UFOs coming up non-human
2:08:09
intell intelligence craft coming up out of the ocean are they're all over the place So uh Tim
God who's uh uh ex-Navy
2:08:19
admiral who had or he's he's a Navy admiral now retired who was in charge of Noah the
National Oceanographic whatever
2:08:28
it's called uh he's really big on the idea of collecting data about UFOs
2:08:35
emerging from the water and so it seems like uh the data on that is it's just
2:08:42
all over the place Also observing UFOs in the water zooming by submarines right
2:08:50
at uh 400 knots 500 knots or whatever without any cavitation I mean it's just
2:08:56
it's just really so the the the data we're buried in data Uh really uh we're
2:09:04
just not buried in in how to explain it Have any of these remote viewers tried
2:09:11
to look at the bottom of the ocean
2:09:19
um not that I'm aware of Why wouldn't Now remove viewers have have zeroed in
2:09:24
on on on UFOs although turns out not at the bottom of the ocean Let let me give you an
example
2:09:31Uh but we we should probably do that I mean since now these days I'm not
2:09:37
involved in the remote viewing uh programs So you maybe there are some but there are
remote viewing programs that
2:09:43
are still going on right now I would say that's likely I when you
2:09:48
have an asset that works to some degree even though it's dismissed publicly Even
2:09:55
though it's dismissed publicly So so even after the SRRI program got shut down
2:10:03
um and after I came out to Austin in what 85 to set up Earth International
2:10:11
and the Institute for Advanced Studies in Austin uh starting to pursue my physics stuff
2:10:16
because I really wanted to pursue my physics I didn't want to stay in looking at remote
viewing forever Uh but I got
2:10:23
calls from certain intelligence agency asking me if I'd be willing to set up
2:10:30
another program in remote viewing And so I figured okay I I turn I turned them
2:10:36
down because I liked the change I had made But so if they ask me that chances are they
asked somebody else that and
2:10:42
they probably got somebody to to agree to do it And from time to time many of
2:10:48
the remote viewers that we trained uh in army incom for example have have2:10:56
now you know retired from the army and they're teaching remote viewing
2:11:01
classes and they often get tasked by somebody back in the intelligence
2:11:07
community to check out something I mean they they've been very
2:11:14
uh prolific in for example uh detecting say cargo ships coming across
2:11:21
the ocean where certain containers full of dope really that's been
2:11:27
released on the CIA site about remote viewing results
2:11:33
and so you can find it Of course I I I tell any remote of viewers I know you know you don't
don't want to advertise
2:11:40
that because you don't want cartels nearby putting check on your back So yeah But
2:11:46
what what I'm interested in is that is the possibility of things under the ocean and and I would
imagine if I was
2:11:53
running a remote viewing program and I had suspicions that there's activity under the ocean
like that craft that was
2:11:59
seen that goes 500 knots under the water that I would start looking under there
2:12:04
I can well imagine that that somebody is you're just not aware of anything I'm just not not
aware of it But there was2:12:09
there's this structure that exists off the coast of California at the bottom of the ocean that
looks odd Very odd It
2:12:16
looks very um constructed It looks man-made or or intelligent in in its
2:12:23
construction And uh I was just looking at something on Google Earth the other day where
people are having a hard time finding it now And they're they're
2:12:29
thinking that it's perhaps obscured Obscured Yeah See if you can find that because I I know
what you're talking
2:12:36
about You saw it as well I saw as well and I It was certainly interesting It looked very weird
You know it looked
2:12:42
like it looked like some sort of a base It was flat on the top and it looked like it had openings
in it See I lost
2:12:50
your sound Is there Oh you did Jamie Um maybe it's your headphones
2:12:56
or did you step on something you hear me now
2:13:02
no I mean I just hear you through the air but not We got to take a break right now because I
got to use the restroom anyway Jamie will fix it and we'll be
2:13:07
right back Had a little tactical snafu Use the restroom and we're back Um so I
2:13:14
I forget exactly where we're at but I know where I wanted to go Where I wanted to go is
we're talking about potential sources2:13:21
of energy potential sources of propulsion systems
2:13:27
How much do you consider the possibility that the things that people are seeing
2:13:34
are ours they're they're made in some top secret program using some advanced
2:13:41
propulsion system some advanced energy system that is not publicly disclosed
2:13:49
I wouldn't rule out the fact that we may have some pretty fancy things uh running
2:13:55
from our own labs I I know that what gets developed in the dark labs uh some
2:14:02
of which I know about are really advanced but it just can't cover the
2:14:09
whole observation that we're seeing with what we call NHI craft non-human
2:14:15
intelligence craft Do you think that some of this stuff has been backgineered from these
non-human crafts uh some of
2:14:22
the materials I would say yes I think we've got some uh I mean there it's it's it's out on the
web uh these days that
2:14:30
uh for example Battel Institute um has
2:14:36
uh supposedly were given some materials from from
2:14:43um from the Roswell crash and uh we always hear the descriptions of this
2:14:49
foil that you could crumple up and then you let go and it just flattens out
2:14:54
again and so on So material of that type was uh provided to Battel and they
2:15:02
worked on it uh for some years to try to see if they could reproduce it and and
2:15:07
the claim is that and it it's it's in the public domain that night came out of
2:15:13
it which is that material that uh can be heated and then it'll reform
2:15:19
uh into its original sorts It doesn't exactly reproduce the effect you saw but
2:15:26
some of it uh is kind of in the direction of that And it turned out that the some of the main
material engineers
2:15:33
that worked on that at their deathbed they told their relatives that they were working on
2:15:40
pieces from the Roswell crash and and they made some progress but but not a
2:15:45
lot You you can look that up in on the internet and see that that's the case is part of the
limitation this thing that
2:15:51
we're discussing earlier about compartmentalization and the the the the lack of ability of
other scientists to
2:15:58get access to this material so they can collaborate Yes the compartmentalization I would say
is the biggest
2:16:06
impediment to making really good progress Uh for sure I I think that's
2:16:13
the case and this conundrum has sort of existed for quite a long time Quite a long time This
is something also in line
2:16:20
with what Bob Lazar said Bob Lazar said the big frustration when he was working he was
tasked with trying to figure out
2:16:27
the propulsion system but he had no access to the metallurgists He had no
2:16:32
access to anyone else that was also working on similar things And he's like "Science just
can't progress this way It
2:16:40
needs to be collaborative." Absolutely right That's 100% And it's even worse than you would
2:16:46
think I mean one of the stories that I ran into was
2:16:53
um a corporation had materials from crashes in their
2:17:00
basement They couldn't even bring them up to the top floor for their own scientists to look at
because it was so
2:17:07
compartmentalized And so that was part of the deal where we said "Okay well give them to
us and
2:17:14then we'll come in the front door and give them to your scientists and we won't say it came
from your basement and
2:17:20
we won't say what it had to do with and you know maybe that would work." But that that got
shut down So it was so
2:17:27
compartmentalized So compartmentalization is really a death now on on much of this stuff
As I say as
2:17:34
I go back to my uh teller story um more
2:17:40
collaboration even though there are faults that can happen and material can leak out and
information can leak out
2:17:48
and that might help an adversary still I think more openness would be would be a
2:17:53
better idea Oh for sure Well definitely for you and I who are fascinated by this thing right
what have you had a personal
2:18:01
experience with anything that you can't explain no actually haven't So for you it's I
2:18:08
mean I mean one time I saw what appeared to be a satellite make a right angle turn So that
like falls into that kind
2:18:14
of a category but who knows who knows what it was Right So no nothing profound
2:18:21
Nothing profound So you've never been hopped in a jet and flown to the
2:18:26
wreckage and had a chance to look at things no haven't Don't you want to well2:18:32
I sure would like to do that Uh but that's that that's still that's
2:18:38
still uh we had this discussion earlier about
2:18:44
uh you know well for example in the remote viewing or quantum entanglement
2:18:50
or you know what's going on that in our physics that we don't understand that that these
kinds of things can be
2:18:57
happening and uh you'll be interested to know that uh someone you know John Paul Deorio
2:19:06
uh uh and I are in partnership to explore a new means of communication
2:19:14
uh quantum communications And so I'm actually now at this point uh directly involved in a
2:19:20
program to examine quantum communications And so it
2:19:26
turns out that uh whereas ordinary electromagnetic communications you know can't get
through barriers metal door or
2:19:33
whatever Well why is that it's because the electromagnetic signal when it gets to the metal
door uh the electric and
2:19:41
magnetic field generate counteracting effects and so the signal can't get through
2:19:46
So it turned out that uh some years ago uh when I was digging around to try to
2:19:52find out how to explain unusual effects I dug deeper into electromagnetism down
2:19:59
into the quantum levels and recognized that there are some additional quantum
2:20:05
processes where you could end up suppressing the electric and magnetic fields but you
would still have a
2:20:12
quantum signal which in principle could get through barriers And so that would mean
2:20:19
okay uh if that's the case and you could communicate to submarines So whereas the
saltwater is
2:20:27
sufficiently conductive then electromagnetic signal can't get down there and communicate if
you are able to pull out
2:20:35
the electric and magnetic components but you still have an underlying quantum aspect to it
you could get through Or
2:20:42
same thing with uh you know spaceships you know when our spaceships came back from
when the Apollo spaceships came
2:20:48
back once they started in our atmosphere and are surrounded by plasma we have this
period where there's no
2:20:55
communication well for the very reason that electromagnetic signals can't get through to
charge plasmas but this
2:21:02
quantum communication aspect could What would you use to how would you encode
2:21:09the information quantumly and how would you project it what kind of machinery
2:21:14
would be involved in something like that well it turns out that the machinery to generate the
signals would be
2:21:23
very explicitly designed antenna structures that are put together in such
2:21:28
a way as to prevent electromagnetic components from being
2:21:33
transmitted It's the detection part where the secret to the technology is because it turns
2:21:40
out then okay if electromagnetic signals aren't
2:21:46
there how are you going to detect s such a signal because all of our detectors
2:21:52
are you know electromagnetic signal comes in and generates a current and
2:21:57
whatever Well it turns out that the special kinds of signaling at the
2:22:02
quantum level can only be detected by quantum devices Quantum devices can
2:22:10
detect these quantum communication signals uh even if there's no electric
2:22:15
and magnetic effects associated with them So that's what we're that's what we're looking at
And so when I think
2:22:22
about uh okay well you know what areas does this have application for well of2:22:28
course it's got a lot of application for things like communication and under conditions where
you'd like to overcome
2:22:34
shielding but it may have something to do even with some of the consciousness stuff
because ordinarily you know when
2:22:41
you hear about uh people trying to think well what
2:22:47
about consciousness is it still just all molecules and neurons whirling around or
2:22:53
are there some additional fields there are a couple of physicists well a physicist and an
anesthesiologist
2:23:01
uh the physicist Roger Penrose who got a Nobel Prize for general relativity stuff
2:23:07
and Stu Hammeroff who is an anesthesiologist
2:23:13
They coupled up and started saying okay is there a possibility that there are quantum
aspects in ordinary life in
2:23:21
ordinary consciousness because sounds kind of reasonable The anesthesiologist says
2:23:28
well when I give somebody a certain anesthetic they lose consciousness So there must be
something about the
2:23:34
anesthesiathesia that grabs onto whatever is responsible for consciousness So make long
story short
2:23:41they came up with a model where they felt that there are in fact quantum processes
occurring within the
2:23:48
brain that in addition to the stuff we all read about know about like neurons
2:23:54
and all that kind of stuff There's also a distribution throughout uh our brain
2:23:59
and nervous system of what's called microtubules And turns out microtubules uh have such
2:24:06
a structure you do experiments in lab to show this that they can detect quantum
2:24:15
signals So the idea that even in our consciousness there are mechanisms for
2:24:21
detecting quantum signals is like a whole new area to investigate And so
2:24:27
there are some uh you know biological and consciousness oriented uh
2:24:34
experimenters that are taking a look at this idea that okay instead of just saying quantum
2:24:40
entanglement that's how information get from here to there maybe we can actually
2:24:45
find out okay well what's the mechanism though and so this is a whole new area
2:24:52
it turns out that uh I developed proof of principle for
2:24:58
this subrosa quantum communication stuff uh on
2:25:03a classified contract back in the '9s actually So I got proof of principle in
2:25:11
that in that situation However you say okay well if you got proof of principle then why aren't
we using it why isn't it
2:25:17
all over the place it turned out that quantum detection quantum detectors were
2:25:22
very uh you know new kinds of uh circuitry and not nothing ready for
2:25:30
prime time So I put that whole thing on the shelf let it uh sit there for a
2:25:35
while And now because of quantum computing it turns out a lot of research effort is going to
develop
2:25:43
uh cryogenic circuitry near absolute zero to be used in quantum computing So
2:25:49
I said okay they got uh these Joseen junctions working which is exactly what
2:25:54
I want to use for my detection scheme And so I find time decide to take it off
2:26:00
the shelf So uh I approached uh JP and
2:26:06
uh showed him what the potential was not only in just communications but
2:26:12
maybe it has implications for you know biological things or medical things or
2:26:17
whatever because of this other work on microtubules So so he said okay well2:26:22
let's let's let's go for it So we we have another major lab that is actually putting together
circuitry for us uh
2:26:31
that obsolet operates about 3.7 degrees above absolute zero I mean this is this
2:26:38
is really quite a technical challenge but uh he and I are working in that
2:26:43
together He's my he's my uh collaborator Fascinating Um quantum entanglement is
2:26:49
is that what you think was going on with the algae so if you were able to do something to the
algae in one area this
2:26:56
this same colony of algae when you had separated by long distances they instantaneously
recognized that
2:27:03
something was happening That's the only thing I can imagine at this point based
2:27:08
on the physics we know How far were they separated in distance well I was going to
separate It was about five miles As
2:27:14
it turns out I never actually got to do that experiment because the CIA came and and
scooped me up and said "Well we got
2:27:21
to look at this remote viewing." And so even though I proposed doing the experiment the
polygraph said that guy
2:27:29
said this would be a great experiment never got around to doing the experiment because
along the way Ingo Swan you know2:27:37
visited his lab came out and perturbed the tiny quantum chip in the super
2:27:45
shielded environment that brought the CIA on my doorstep and so then we went
2:27:50
off in that direction So I never got to do the experiment So as you consider all these
technologies as these innovations
2:27:57
occur and technology becomes more and more powerful like quantum computing like many
of these things that we're
2:28:03
seeing now Do you think that these are all steps to further understand how these
2:28:11
crafts could possibly work and we're getting closer and closer to it
2:28:16
where disclosure would accelerate that
2:28:22
and we would have to get over this We'd have to get we'd have to have some sort of
amnesty Amnesty towards the people
2:28:29
that that misappropriated funds and lied to Congress Amnesty towards whatever
2:28:35
defense contractors were given access to this equipment or this these materials and other
ones There has to be some
2:28:42
executive decision that's made where like look for the greater good of the human race we
have to bypass all of
2:28:48these blockades that are involved in us being able to truly understand what's going on here
And one of them is we have
2:28:54
to have disclosure Yes exactly And in fact uh we're not alone in thinking that
2:29:00
way uh as you may as many in the field are aware of
2:29:06
uh in 2023 then majority leader Senate
2:29:12
majority leader Chuck Schu Chuck uh yeah Chuck Schumer and a Republican uh
2:29:19
Senator Rounds got together and they put together an
2:29:26
outline of an amendment to be attached to the National Defense Authorization
2:29:31
Act called UAP Disclosure Act
2:29:38
2023 and it's pages and pages long And it's hard to believe but within
2:29:46
this uh document they outline how you would go through
2:29:53
disclosure And uh it's it's it's very detailed I mean for example this is an
2:29:59
official government document You can go find it on the
2:30:04
internet Nonhuman intelligence phrase is mentioned more than 20 times Whoa And
2:30:12the document said look what we need is a presidential
2:30:18
panel president say officiated panel of people from several different uh areas
2:30:28
who and and all those people out there who have materials and so on We're going
2:30:33
to practice imminent domain which is turns out to be one of the things that turns people hair
on
2:30:40
fire when they think they've got something and don't want to share it But anyway that we
have to come up with a
2:30:46
process whereby corporations that have been involved in this can begin to share
2:30:54
their history and their data and their materials And the National Archives will
2:31:01
be set up to make this information available as is
2:31:08
safe to do considering security concerns And so this is a multi-page document
2:31:16
uh that you can find you can find it on the internet Okay it passed the Senate
2:31:23
but the House killed it So you might think okay well that's the end of
2:31:29
that Surprisingly so and it makes you realize the intensity of this After it
2:31:35
was killed both Schumer and Rounds got back up on in the Senate floor and said2:31:42
"Okay it got killed but we're not giving up We're going to get it in there next
2:31:48
year." And so the following year 2024 they included it
2:31:54
again And most of it got killed The only thing that got killed was okay the National
2:32:00
Archives will make available uh whatever information is provided them on on this
2:32:06
subject area and the National Archives has started to do that But as you can imagine
anybody who's got some really
2:32:12
juicy stuff isn't going to give it to the National Archives So that's it's still dead in the water So
anyway
2:32:18
recently uh I was asked to come in and brief Senator Rounds who was one of the
2:32:24
two people who pushed this and he said "We're not giving up on
2:32:30
this Give me what you found so far about the physics of
2:32:36
this because when we try to push it we always get the push back that well
2:32:44
you know we're not going to make any headway The pilots say this is way beyond our
physics but I understand that
2:32:49
you and your colleagues have worked on this and felt that you can provide some of the
physics We may not get the2:32:55
engineering yet but we have someplace to start Is that true because I need to push back on
the push back
2:33:02
So I gave him a long lecture on on the physics which I've also presented to the
2:33:09
Senate select committee on intelligence the Senate Armed Services Committee
2:33:15
Arrow the old domain anomalies resolution office So the information is coming out
2:33:23
into those places and um and so though there are those people
2:33:29
in high positions of power in our Congress who are really pushing
2:33:36
it So for example as it turns out tomorrow there's going to be a big
2:33:41
meeting Uh I think it was set up by Representative Luna or Yeah I think it's
2:33:48
Representative Luna you know when they put out that official document saying "Okay JFK
files are coming
2:33:55
out RFK files are coming out MLK files are coming out." In that
2:34:02
list UFO files are coming out Well they haven't gotten there The Epstein files are coming out
Okay so it's officially
2:34:10
on that list So in fact as it turns out tomorrow there's going to be a big thing in Congress
where they're going to have2:34:16
an open hearing uh with people coming forward uh to talk about uh that there
2:34:22
should be some release of some steps forward to release this kind of data So
2:34:27
it is not a dead issue I mean it is hot and there are a lot of really powerful
2:34:33
people behind it But you've got the resistance uh buried I mean there are people within
2:34:41
the uh intelligence community and uh the DoD who do think we need more openness
2:34:47
They see the same issues I see that we're not making much progress because everything is
so compartmentalized Right
2:34:55
So uh is there a concern it's an ongoing thing When when you talked about during the Bush
administration you were tasked
2:35:01
along with others to try to figure out what are the pros and what are the cons and what what
outweighs what and you
2:35:06
they your group decided that the cons outweighed the pros When it comes to disclosure
today with the risk of
2:35:14
espionage and with the risk of this information if it becomes disclosed and
2:35:20
everybody has access to it clearly if it's disclosed to the general public it's also going to be
disclosed to our
2:35:25our enemies right and so this becomes an issue of national security Yes So it's got to be
done correctly How would one
2:35:32
do that well this write up that Schumer and Rounds and and some other people
2:35:38
Gilibbran Gillibran and Rubio uh put together said "Okay we're going to have
2:35:44
to lay everything out in the table at a high classified area We're going to have
2:35:49
to sort our way through of what can be released that doesn't take the chance of
2:35:56
giving our ad potential adversaries data they need to to leap ahead of us
2:36:03
But nonetheless we've got to have more collaboration so that we can move ahead
2:36:09
faster So that's that's the job of uh at least in that document of a nine-person
2:36:14
panel to figure out okay what could be released without jeopardizing our
2:36:20
national security so much but nonetheless accelerating the kind of collaboration
2:36:26
we need to make headway faster And then there's the issue
2:36:32
of when it does get disclosed like what happens to the general public's
2:36:37
perception If this is like a national disclosure if the president if Trump gets on television and
discloses2:36:46
everything we know so far we are in possession of 10 vehicles however you want to call
2:36:53
them of non-human intelligence that are not ours We have been working on this for decades
in secret in secrecy But
2:37:02
because of the fact that everything has been so secret and everything's so
compartmentalized innovation has been
2:37:08
stagnant Our understanding of it has been stagnant The only way forward is to disclose But
this is going to come with
2:37:14
a radical reimagining of our place in the universe
2:37:19
What you've just described is what I think has to happen I mean because you
2:37:26
have whistleblowers like Dave Grush coming forward and he basically says "We've got craft
we've got bodies we've
2:37:33
got uh aerospace corporations working on this behind the
2:37:39
scenes." But in the end that doesn't go anywhere It doesn't really solve the problem
2:37:46
And you have people uh come forward and said "Look I can give you the address of
2:37:53
where the stuff is stored so we can take this out of the discussion area and really prove
2:37:59
something." But it would take it would take I think a presidential uh executive2:38:05
order or something to to to light a fire under that process to have it happen So
2:38:13
but that's all possible It's all possible And when I compare you know where are we today as
compared to where
2:38:20
we were in 2004 or whenever that
2:38:26
uh other disclosure discussion took place at that time there was a lot of
2:38:33
stigma There was no proof you could kind of put your hands on
2:38:39
Uh there was in fact purposely designed misinformation by the intelligence
2:38:46
community so-called Robertson panel went out of their way to you know say this is
2:38:52
all nonsense So that was something you're dealing with So there you realize well if I come
forward and say there's
2:38:58
really something to this I'm I'm really blasting through quite a brick wall here
2:39:03
But in the intervening in intervening uh decades I think we've gotten to a
2:39:10
point where the reasons we had to not do it then are no longer
2:39:17
applicable But some of the concerns we had discussed then are still applicable
2:39:23and have to be we have to pay attention to them So I think uh for example this
2:39:29
uh film that you saw that had its premiere at uh South by Southwest that
2:39:34
uh Dan Farah put out and a upcoming book coming out uh by Jay Stratton who was in
2:39:42
charge of the UAP task force These kind of things are going to
2:39:48
accelerate that option And so I think it's only a matter I mean
2:39:55
I would find it difficult to believe that within a decade we're not going to
2:40:00
figure out how to do this and that there will be what you and I would call
2:40:06
disclosure but in a responsible way where we're not uh providing the enemy
2:40:12
uh you know information they need I mean I recall when the when the when the DoD
program was set up out of DIA they said
2:40:20
"Well we need to investigate this to find out whose craft there are you know
2:40:27
what how do they run and whatever whatever." And then the second reason was what if our
potential
2:40:34
adversaries get access or figure this out from their data collection before we
2:40:40
do and they leap ahead of us So it turned out that whole program was not based on one
They couldn't care less2:40:48
where these things were coming from what their intentions were They're really worried about
the possibility of an adversary getting ahead of us So that
2:40:54
was the driving force behind the whole program Well now having all these intervening years
go by and uh you know
2:41:03
there hasn't been any obvious super breakthrough by adversaries I think now is the time we
2:41:10
could have a kind of a reconciliation process Uh make sure we don't put everybody in jail
and anything to do
2:41:16
with covering this up Provide uh proper lanes to bring various aspects of
2:41:24
information forward And so that's uh that's what I and colleagues that I
2:41:29
interact with uh are trying to do today I would also think that if I was looking
2:41:37
at civilization particularly United States civilization and thinking what
2:41:43
kind of an impact would things have in 2004 with with disclosure and what kind of an impact
2:41:50
would they have in 2025 I think that this gradual acceptance and this
2:41:56
understanding that this is probably a real phenomenon is much more widespread
2:42:01
today So the the concept of it it wouldn't be as shocking as it would have
2:42:06been two decades ago You know two decades ago by the way is when the the
2:42:12
tic tac vehicle was was observed which is 2004 which is really kind of crazy
2:42:18
when you think about the technology that was required to do something And then imagine
that that technology being ours
2:42:24
in 2004 It seems preposterous right it seems almost outside of the realm of even whatever
top secret programs could
2:42:33
have been running some black programs could have been running That seems too much It
is too much It seems too crazy
2:42:38
So as the I think a big breakthrough and I think you probably agree with the New York Times
that 2017 report in the New
2:42:47
York Times was huge because here it is in the most prestigious newspaper in the United
States in the world right and
2:42:53
it's saying look there's there's real things happening here and there's real people who are a
very high level who are
2:42:59
talking about these things whether it's Commander Fraver or Ryan Graves or all these
different fighter pilots that have
2:43:05
encountered these things that are just doing something that is beyond explanation This is
more in the zeicist
2:43:12
now Yes there's and the more you have people like James Fox and Jeremy Corbel
2:43:17and these documentaries that get out and more and more of an understanding and
appreciation of fact that these aren't
2:43:22
cooks The these are real people and we need to take into consideration the very
2:43:29
obvious possibility that we are not unique There's too many planets there's
2:43:35
too many solar systems there's too many galaxies there's too and then dimensions Yes And
then just the potential of like
2:43:43
what what do we look like in a million years what do we look like in a million years and if we
you know existed in this
2:43:52
form for hundreds of thousands of years it's not inconceivable that a species
2:43:57
like us could keep going with its innovative trajectory Yes And achieve
2:44:04
some state a million years from now that is just beyond our imagination currently
2:44:10
and that we might be experiencing that right but I I think you have laid out an
2:44:15
exact map of the real situation and what
2:44:20
the future probably holds for us and the fact
2:44:26
that now is the time sooner rather than later to begin to have this become part
2:44:32
of our total philosophical fabric to face into2:44:37
this and to accept the reality of you know nonhuman human intelligences for
2:44:44
example and recognize that uh our own technical development is moving so fast
2:44:52
that the kind of things that we find to be so mysterious are pretty much likely
2:44:57
in our not that far off future Well just what we see with the leaps that quantum computing
exactly is able to achieve
2:45:04
equations that would take standard computing billions of years It could do it in four minutes
Exactly Just just you
2:45:09
hear that and you go "What are you even saying?" That's right In fact my son this morning
uh brought up that article
2:45:16
uh and you know it's just it's it's un kind of unbelievable So uh it's
2:45:22
unbelievable and it's real It's unbelievable and it's real and it's happening right now And then
just imagine taking
2:45:27
that 50 years Yes 50 years ago that was science fiction Complete science fiction
2:45:34
That's right I mean I I love my example of uh in fact I got it into the New York
2:45:39
Times article Suppose you gave Leonardo da Vinci a garage door opener You what
2:45:45
could he do well right First of all plastic He doesn't know what plastic is2:45:50
Secondly when he opens it up and sees all these little tiny things he'd never heard of
2:45:57
electromagnetism Uh I mean there's no way that even okay or give Einstein an
2:46:03
iPhone back in 19 45 or something you know right what what could he do with it
2:46:09
so that's sort of the position that we kind of have been in to see these craft
2:46:15
that we get access to either through crashes or quote donations and uh you
2:46:21
know it's it's it's really mysterious but nonetheless uh we should do our best
2:46:27
and these days because of the development of quantum uh technologies
2:46:32
and so on we have better tools we have AI on our side to move fast through some
2:46:39
calculations and stuff So I so I think I think this is the time where uh
2:46:45
disclosure is going to happen and relatively soon Well it's if it does
2:46:50
happen it's thanks to people like you that stuck their neck out for many many years and I'm
sure you experienced a lot
2:46:55
of ridicule and side eyes Sure did Right In fact I remember uh when I was
2:47:01
involved in the remote viewing program uh one of my sons was attending a uh2:47:07
grammar school and uh one day uh another father's kid came over to play with him
2:47:14
and when the other uh professor actually at Stanford came over and said "Uh I
2:47:21
brought my kid over to play with you but his last name is put off are you associated with that
put off at SRRI and
2:47:28
that remote viewing i said "Yeah yeah yeah I am." And he said "Okay my son's not going to
come over and play with
2:47:34
you." Anyway so you run into that run into that But I don't know Some people
2:47:41
Why would he want to talk to you if that was my kid I'd be like "Let's hang out." Yeah Tell me
Al what the heck are you
2:47:48
doing yeah So anyway uh that's what we used to run into close-mindedness just but that
shows how things have changed
2:47:55
Right Uh uh in general when we talk about uh the remote viewing aspects
2:48:01
people just say okay uh I accept that now how can we apply it and we talk
2:48:06
about technologies associated with uh crash retrievals Okay fine but you know
2:48:12
what can we learn from that how can we apply it so I mean it's a different world we're in now
and I'm I'm really excited about it and uh you know I'm not
2:48:20going to stop Well I'm very happy you're out there I really really appreciate you and I really
appreciate your time So
2:48:25
thank you for coming in here and talking to us Certainly welcome And I appreciate the fact
that you're willing to be
2:48:30
pursuing these frontier areas and bringing them to a large audience That's that's a real gift I I
really appreciate
2:48:37
that Well it feels like a gift for me because it's so fascinating and I've been obsessed with it
my whole life as I
2:48:42
think a lot of people are who look into it at all and realize there's some there's something of
substance there Right Right Well thank you Hal Thank you
2:48:49
It was a real pleasure Pleasure for you too All right Bye everybody
2:48:56
[Music] [Applause] [Music]