Nixon Ehrlichman September 8 1971

The following transcripts for conversations between Richard Nixon and John Ehrlichman taken from the following audio files:

http://nixontapeaudio.org/chron2/rmn_e274b.mp3
http://nixontapeaudio.org/chron2/rmn_e274c.mp3

Segment one is taken from rmn_e274b.mp3, starting point 1:57:34, ending at 3:11 in rmn_e274c.mp3. Segment two begins at 35:56 on rmn_e274c.mp3 and ends at 41:20. The majority of transcript and introduction are taken from Stanley Kutler's Abuse of Power. Some supplements were added, and some edits were made to the transcript by the uploader.

Audio accompanied by transcript is on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSNCIPLkhqk

SEPTEMBER 8, 1971: THE PRESIDENT AND EHRLICHMAN, 3:36-5:10 P.M., OVAL OFFICE

On the night of September 3-4, the White House "Special Investigative Unit," led by E. Howard Hunt and G. Gordon Liddy, illegally entered the offices of Dr. Lewis Fielding, a Beverly Hills psychiatrist who numbered Daniel Ellsberg among his patients. Here, Ehrlichman tells Nixon about "one little operation," quickly adding that it "is better that you don't know about this." The two also discuss using the IRS to harass Senators Muskie and Humphrey, and Ehrlichman reports on his agents' and his own surveillance of Senator Edward Kennedy.

SEGMENT ONE

PRESIDENT NIXON: Where's [Egil] Krogh stand now? He's still in charge of the—

EHRLICHMAN: He's doing the-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Pentagon [Papers].

EHRLICHMAN: -the narcotics thing. But he's also spending most of his time on the Ellsberg, declassifications, and the dirty tricks business on getting stuff out.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Is something eventually going to come in?

EHRLICHMAN: Yes. I've got him in today. Krogh and [David] Young. And we went over a lot of things. Tomorrow, I have the General Counsel from Defense. Mardian. And the guy from State. Plus Krogh and Young, to talk about what we have to give a congressional committee. Marshall all their stuff. And bring it in, so we can review it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Is it now- Are we- Are we having any success getting Congress to agree (unintelligible)?

EHRLICHMAN: Well...now, I haven't tried to get them to agree, but I told them what we had to give them.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I suppose you're right.

EHRLICHMAN: And, it's taken this long to pull everything together. Because the Ellsberg case took this funny bounce, where it became pretty clear as you get farther and farther into it, that Ellsberg is guilty of what he's charged with, which is stealing documents and copies, but that he probably didn't give them to the New York Times.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well...who the hell did?

EHRLICHMAN: Well, we think Gelb [National Security Council member Leslie Gelb] did.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Gelb!

EHRLICHMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: The Brookings Institute?

EHRLICHMAN: Yeah. Now that's, that's speculation at this point. And this is something we'll know a lot more about tomorrow after-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Gelb had the (unintelligible) papers?

EHRLICHMAN: Gelb was on the same team, you see. He was in charge of this project. Of writing this.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Did he work for Kissinger?

EHRLICHMAN: No, that was Halperin. (unintelligible) He was a consultant. But...Ellsberg has this enormous ego. And he wants to be recognized as an expert on Vietnam. And he's traveling around the country saying he did this. And that's throwing people off. The FBI is very doubtful on this, but Defense Department investigators are totally convinced that Ellsberg did not feed this stuff to the Times. And so-

PRESIDENT NIXON: By noon time tomorrow, I suppose the Times is delighted at that, because they threw them off the track. They're trying to protect Gelb.

EHRLICHMAN: Sure. Yup.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Does Gelb know what they're doing?

EHRLICHMAN: I don't think so. Now, we have a break on Brookings.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Good.

EHRLICHMAN: Gordon Gray is a trustee of Brookings, and is going on the three man executive committee. And he is working with us.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Is he?

EHRLICHMAN: Yup.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, he would be a patriot for sure.

EHRLICHMAN: I've talked to him. Krogh and Young have spent a lot of time-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Does he know how desperate and political it is?

EHRLICHMAN: Yes.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I don't mean the Pentagon Papers, but the Brooking Institute-

EHRLICHMAN: -the whole thing.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah.

EHRLICHMAN: He didn't know, when he went in there, apparently, or he wasn't aware in the application thing, but we've made him aware of some of the things that have been going on there. And he's going to work with us. And he's feeding us information as it comes to him. So...we do have one inside man. I used your name in talking with him, and how you're intimately familiar with what he's doing for us and all this stuff, so he's...we'll track him. We'll give him some time, to (unintelligible). Next is the Foreign Affairs Policy Board, if you keep him afterwards, or I don't know (unintelligible)...So, tomorrow, we'll review all this stuff, we'll try to...We had one little operation. It's been aborted out in Los Angeles...which, I think, is better that you don't know about. But we've got some dirty tricks underway. It may pay off. We've planted a bunch of stuff with columnists some of which will be given to service shortly, I think, about some of this group, about Ellsberg's lawyer, about the Bay of Pigs. Some of this stuff is going to start—is going to start surfacing.

PRESIDENT NIXON: With columnists that are somewhat respectable?

EHRLICHMAN: Yes. [Jerald] TerHorst and people like that.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Good. Good.

EHRLICHMAN: We're running into a little problem. I've got to talk to Helms about getting some documents which the CIA have on the Bay of Pigs and things like that which they would rather not leak out. [Chuckles] Well, it's a challenge.

PRESIDENT NIXON: It's going to be hard. They are very sensitive about that. Helms is definitely the operator now for the CIA and the Bay of Pigs.

EHRLICHMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Helms...Allen Dulles was the head...but Helms was the operator. So Helms knows everything about it. And on this, too, you don't-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Henry [Kissinger] can sort it out because so many of the people involved are, frankly, closely associated with him.

EHRLICHMAN: Yup. Well, that's one of the things that we keep bumping into in this thing...Now, Ellsberg has been to his house and so on before...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Much closer group then we would like.

EHRLICHMAN: Yup. The assassination, Diem episode is on ice for the moment, until the Vietnam election-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. Let it go.

EHRLICHMAN: Then we'll let it go. Believe me...

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's a good one.

EHRLICHMAN: Yup.

SEGMENT TWO

PRESIDENT NIXON: But, as I say, The public figures must expect this...It's rather curious, though, John, that we have the power, but are we using it to investigate contributors to Hubert Humphrey, contributors to Muskie, the Jews, you know, that are stealing every—. You know, they have really tried to crucify Ho[bart] Lewis, Rob[ert] Abplanalp, I mean, while we've been in office even.

EHRLICHMAN: I know, I know.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Bob Abplanalp...and John Wayne, of course, and Paul Keyes. After 1964 he does one stinking commercial for Goldwater. They have made him a Goddamn martyr. What the hell are we doing?

EHRLICHMAN: I don't know.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You see, we have a new man over there. I know the other guy didn't do anything, but—

EHRLICHMAN: Oh, you mean at IRS?

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. Why are—are we going after their tax returns. Do you know what I mean?...Do you remember in 1962? Do you remember what they [IRS] did to me in California? After those sons of bitches came out...I find finally, now they owe me more money on my return...

EHRLICHMAN: I saw...I called Mitchell's guy...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah.

EHRLICHMAN: And uh...when I see Mitchell, tomorrow or the next day, I'll take up this.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I can only hope...that we are, frankly going to be persecuting. Right? We oughta persecute...whoever the hell we can. And on the IRS, you could—are we looking into Muskie's return?

EHRLICHMAN: No, we haven't.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Hubert? Hubert's been in a lot of funny deals.

EHRLICHMAN: Yes, he has.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Teddy [Kennedy]? Who knows about the Kennedys? Shouldn't they be investigated?

EHRLICHMAN: IRS-wise I don't know the answer. Teddy, we are covering—

PRESIDENT NIXON: Are you?

EHRLICHMAN: —personally, when he goes on holidays. When he stopped in Hawaii on his way back from Pakistan last Thanksgiving.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Do anything?

EHRLICHMAN: No. No. He's very clean. Very clean. Being careful now. He was in Hawaii on his own. He was staying at some guy's villa and we had a guy on him, and he was just as nice as he could be the whole time.

PRESIDENT NIXON: The thing to do is to just watch him because what happens to fellows like that who have that kind of problem is that they go for a while and then they open out.

EHRLICHMAN: That's what I'm hoping for.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I don’t think he would break really while he was, you know, trying for the big thing. Generally, they don’t. Although Jack [Kennedy] was damn careless.

EHRLICHMAN: This time between, now and the convention time may be the time (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT NIXON: You mean, that he will be under great pressure?

EHRLICHMAN: He will be under pressure, but he will also be out of the limelight somewhat. Now he was in Hawaii pretty much the entire time, with very little staff...And, liked the house, moved around. Socialized and stuff. So you would expect that at a time like that you might catch him. And then he went up to Hyannis and we got an arrangement—

PRESIDENT NIXON: What's Muskie doing? What kind of a life is he living?

EHRLICHMAN: Very close group, very monkish...

PRESIDENT NIXON: (unintelligible)

EHRLICHMAN: Yeah. Big family. He's got six kids. And very ordinary type of life. So, Teddy—we were over on Martha's Vineyard last week. I had never seen that set before, that Chappaquiddick, the Edgartown Ferry. That is a very short spot. Having seen it now, I would bet he stopped that night. I don't see why they—you know, they could build a bridge across there. It's a very short distance. And it's no farther than from here to the West Wing. And not a bad time, the time we were there. So it was quite interesting. I took some pictures of it. What amazed me is how short a distance it really was. But we do cover him when he goes to Hyannis.

PRESIDENT NIXON: He will never live that down.

EHRLICHMAN: No. I don't think he will, not that one. I think that will be around his neck forever.

PRESIDENT NIXON: He'll never--it isn't like [Nelson] Rockefeller's divorce. A divorce, you can get over.

EHRLICHMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: [Unclear] Rockefeller [unclear] most people will forget it. They say [unclear] maybe there's something wrong with his wife [unclear] and they've forgotten it.

EHRLICHMAN: Yeah. Yeah, nobody knew he had a first wife.

PRESIDENT NIXON: [Ronald] Reagan? [unclear] unhappy marriage.

EHRLICHMAN: But this thing has a geographic identity which is interesting and they tell me that the business side apparently has tripled since this accident, people going over to look at the bridge.

EHRLICHMAN: He's getting into the folklore. Yup. Nick Thimmesch shared that in a column the other day.