deep thoughts

[6:26 AM]
zagron:
	thats a side effect of humans wanting to think they are unique
	"im not like the other girls"
	you dont want to say youre normal
	but im sure plenty of people worldwide share many of your daily experiences
	what makes what normal?
	i mentioned earlier but picture a number line
	1-10
	what excatly on each end doesnt really matter

[6:27 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	law of large numbers states that those of us who have truly, singularly unique experiences is impossibly small

[6:28 AM]
zagron:
	but the closer to the middle you are, the more shared experiences and values you share wit hthe rest of people

[6:28 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	right
	so, for rhetoric's sake, there's some arbitrary number/range that you could call 'normal'

[6:28 AM]
zagron:
	there will be big groupings of humans at every number, but the middle will always be the greatest
	thats what "normal" is being defined as
	having the most overlap between other humans
	and you can say that those people are the most normie

[6:29 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	my internal logic dictates that's got a normal distribution
	so do you think there's value in drawing a line anywhere?
	'beyond this line is no longer normie'

[6:30 AM]
zagron:
	depends, what are you gonna do with that line

[6:30 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	categorize

[6:30 AM]
zagron:
	status quo exists for a reason, but that doesnt mean its the end all be all
	of the 7 billion people on that number line, all are living their "normal" life
	why do you need to categorize?

[6:32 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	compulsive need/easier to understand the world
	are there not people on that line who are both living an abnormal life and who are cognizant of that fact?

[6:33 AM]
zagron:
	and what if they do think it is abnormal? does their value as a person or how they're allowed to interact with others change solely off that?
	no one can ever truly understand the world
	no matter how much you study or how many people you meet
	we can give it our best shot and categorize things based on morals
	but even those are subjective
	culture proves that

[6:34 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	it's a personal belief that novelty inherently implies value
	whether or not that value is negligible is a different argument
	i didn't think i'd be quoting this of all things but
	do you remember that speech kaiki gave in nisemono
	if you even finished it

[6:36 AM]
zagron:
	i did but i dont remember shit from it

[6:36 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	his argument was that
	a fake that's otherwise indistinguishable from the real thing is actually more valuable than the real thing
	i'm at the phase of
	'hesitantly buying into that'

[6:37 AM]
zagron:
	i disagree that novelty implies value, being unique in a certain regard doesnt mean its good or deserves to be held higher
	it needs to bring something to the stage
	i can see where youre coming from
	somepeople pick up shiny rocks on the sidewalk
	but its still a rock that serves the same function, the difference is purely in ones mind
	some people pay tons of money for special edition collectibles when the normal one serves the same purpose

[6:40 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	are you speaking of objective value here
	or subjective

[6:40 AM]
zagron:
	but what will the special edition ever give you besides personal satiisfaction
	it does have resale value yes but then that means eventually you will value the money above the collectible
	if a person chooses to not value the special edition higher then its not worth more
	theyre never gonna pay extra for it
	instead that person will find someone who will
	same concept applies everywhere
	a unique opinion isnt worth anything unless someonme thinks it is

[6:43 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	but I do think it is
	so what happens then
	does my subjective valuation just become objective in my own subjective reality? since we're all living our own experiences?

[6:43 AM]
zagron:
	yes
	but that doesnt mean your valuation cant change

[6:44 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	right
	is there any method of going about changing subjective value into objective?

[6:44 AM]
zagron:
	show that the thing in question has value to the entire world
	which is near impossible
	climate change getting enough attention that both individuals and big corperations start going green
	for example
	youve heard of aethiests having a special experience then starting to believe in god
	if god himself came down f rom the heavens and spoke to everyone then god would be universally accepted
	granted theres still people who would deny it
	eg. flat earthers
	but when a vast majority believes it has value then thats as close as it can get to being objectively valuable

[6:47 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	"as close as it can get to being objectively valuable"
	that's a juicy phrase
	so do you think objective value even exists?
	or we can only approximate it

[6:48 AM]
zagron:
	nope
	this also loops back to the normie thing
	lets say lots of americans believe The Office has inherent value
	and u think thats fucking stupid
	theyre now normies in your eyes and your not normal in that regard

[6:49 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	but what's they're perspective
	do they think that they're special?
	or that i'm weird for not liking it

[6:49 AM]
zagron:
	small side tangent
	i believe humans are both unique and all the same

[6:49 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	small side tangent
	i'm very much enjoying this :)

[6:50 AM]
zagron:
	so the whole "weird" thing is also just your subjective opinion
	a good example in your life is seeing fan service in anime
	when i first wanted to show my parents anime
	i thought "which ones would be good"
	oh plastic memories sounds pretty good for my "normie" parents
	then a scene comes on where the mechanic girl gropes isla
	"oh shit howd i even forget that"
	its normal to me and you too
	weird is just another way of quanitfying how far away from the center of the number line a thing is on

[6:52 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	i'm a lot less concerned with subjective normals, i think

[6:52 AM]
zagron:
	to you who has his own point on the line, everything in your FOV is normal
	objective normals are the same thing as objective value
	the fact that different cultures exist is proof that it cant exist

[6:53 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	going back to something closer to the original subject
	just because we've been exposed to fanservice and it's "our normal" i don't think it has any bearing on it's overall "normalcy"
	i also don't think the lack of an objective shared across human experiences excludes the labelling of things as abnormal

[6:55 AM]
zagron:
	you can be aware that something normal to you is abnormal to the majority of people in the center of the number line

[6:55 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	lack of an objective normal shared*

[6:55 AM]
zagron:
	but that doesnt change how you yourself interract with iut

[6:55 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	i'm extremely aware of that, that's my partially my point

[6:55 AM]
zagron:
	because in your values its normal
	yes, some things will evenutally reach a point where they are close to having intrinsic value
	however, even while most cultures decided that cannibalism is intrisically bad, there are still some that practiced it, some peoiple still do today
	just under extreme secrecy because they are aware of its abnormality
	but that doesnt change their values on it
	they will still eat people

[6:57 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	it'd be my take, in that situation
	that wherever you want to draw the line
	cannibalism falls in as abnormal

[6:58 AM]
zagron:
	but to the people who practice it, its still their normal

[6:58 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	i don't think the subjective feelings of individuals has any bearing on the overall normalcy, or lack thereof

[6:58 AM]
zagron:
	in essense its no different then the way you percieve a much less polarizing topic
	what differentiates it is how far away from the center of the number line it falls

[6:59 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	right
	i think you've been double-dipping the word "normal" when something like "everyday" might be more appropriate
	to the whatever tribes that practice cannibalism, cannibalism is both normal and everyday
	but while getting off to hentai may be my everyday i don't think it's normal
	and just because it's my everyday I don't think it has any bearing on where it falls on the line

[7:00 AM]
zagron:
	but that doesnt change how you yourself perceive it
	yes you can recognize it as abnormal

[7:01 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	what exactly is my perception affecting here

[7:01 AM]
zagron:
	but if you truly think it goes against what you believe, you wouldnt do it

[7:02 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	i don't think beliefs have anything to do with the conversation, at least as far as i've been seeing it

[7:03 AM]
zagron:
	so this whole tangent started from how you describe a normie/npc and what that means to you

[7:03 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	normal and abnormal, at least in the objective senses i'm talking about, are concepts that inherently disregard the feelings of the individual

[7:03 AM]
zagron:
	yes, because everyone will have a different point that they stand on with any topic

[7:04 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	and in the same way that showing everyone god can get you as close as reasonably possible to an objective sense of value

[7:04 AM]
zagron:
	but you said you want to be able to categorize people based on how where they stand and if they stand outside of the "norm"

[7:04 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	my goal is that by getting differing opinions and data points i can get closer to the sense of an objective normal
	i think that what you said about cultural differences disproving an extant 'objective human normal' is interesting and probably true
	but on the other hand i don't think there's necessarily an issue with defining normal as 'not abnormal'
	and i do believe you can define an objective abnormal
	at least, at a moment in time
	which
	if i'm reading my own internal logic right would disprove the ability to conclusively, positively identify someone as a normie
	and instead could only be made in contrast to the abnormal

[7:07 AM]
zagron:
	so can you say that china/south east asia being the only places on earth who eats dogs makes them abnormal to the point of exclusion/hostility?
	because i dont think so

[7:07 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	hm

[7:08 AM]
zagron:
	i think that sunni saying anyone who eats pork is an infidel is braindead
	but its a no brainer to them

[7:08 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	ramifications of normalcy aren't exactly something i had a goal of exploring but i'm interested in nonetheless

[7:08 AM]
zagron:
	well whats the point of categorizing the norm then
	if you arent going to act on it

[7:09 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	knowledge for it's own sake

[7:09 AM]
zagron:
	all that would do is build human hositlity towards people who dont agree with you

[7:09 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	to which I attribute value

[7:09 AM]
zagron:
	which would result in rammifications

[7:09 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	i don't
	think that's necessarily true
	specifically that categorizing the norm would build hosility
	hostility
	it certainly /can/

[7:10 AM]
zagron:
	humans are (one of) the only creatures with ego
	it would
	you can think that youd be accepting or indifferent
	but there will be a point eventually that would hit you

[7:11 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	that strikes me as an extremely pessimistic outlook
	which isn't a problem

[7:11 AM]
zagron:
	didnt you mention how you liked ls's take that critisism is more honest

[7:12 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	that is correct
	but your use of the word 'eventually' has me thinking
	why would it eventually hit me
	not to be pedantic and overly focus on a single word but

[7:12 AM]
zagron:
	your age and experiences would change it

[7:12 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	if it would eventually hit me, that would mean that the action doesn't inherently cause hostility?

[7:13 AM]
zagron:
	action happens literally always
	you are never experiencing nothing
	until youre dead

[7:13 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	action meaning
	the action of categorizing normal
	which i don't think inherently causes hostility
	it has the ability to
	but i don't think there's an eventuality behind it like you do

[7:14 AM]
zagron:
	you can categorize your own ideas of norms, but if you adhere to them and believe in their validity, then when something falls outside of them you will think it wrong
	and thats because you have ego as a human

[7:15 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	...would i not just think of it as abnormal?

[7:15 AM]
zagron:
	the word doesnt matter
	just because you wont act on your intuition that its wrong doesnt mean you still dont think its wrong

[7:16 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	i think the word does matter
	wrong implies it should not be
	and acting on a feeling of wrongness implies correction, if i'm reading you right
	whereas abnormal implies a recognition of 'not normal'

[7:17 AM]
zagron:
	returning things to a normal state from being abnormal has the same context
	the difference is one is a crusade against an ideal and one is what the US government has done to black people behind the scenes
	the result is similar of your values or ideals being pushes by you an dothers who agree with you
	its why i say the word doesnt matter
	just by recognizing its not normal puts it in a category outside what you believe in
	again, acting on that recognition is a whole nother thing

[7:20 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	i don't follow
	re: the first ~3 lines

[7:21 AM]
zagron:
	the metaphor was rushed b/c i forgot teh exact phrase i wanted to use
	basically just recogizing something is outside of your norm makes you separate it into a different category

[7:22 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	and you contend that inherently generates hostility, be it passive or active?

[7:22 AM]
zagron:
	thinking its "harmlessly abmoral" or "harmfully wrong" is just a shifting slider
	every value deemed abnormal will not generate a response from every person
	i bet you think police violence is out of control and you want reform
	did you go burn a police station?
but you still want to force the ideal of needing to cut funding, etc onto those who don't

[7:24 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	is that not a loaded example, though

[7:25 AM]
zagron:
	ok, there some people who wont be friends with those who like pineapple on pizza
	to you thats probably stupid

[7:26 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	100% justified
	:^)

[7:26 AM]
zagron:
	do you see what im saying
	yeah someone probably wont go shoot up a pizza hut

[7:26 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	on a practical level, yes

[7:26 AM]
zagron:
	but the rift is there

[7:26 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	but on a conceptual, no
	the propensity for an event to happen has no bearing on it's eventuality
	the universe could have a 99% chance to spontaneously end every second
	just because it's likely doesn't lend any guarantees to the universe ending, ever

[7:27 AM]
zagron:
	when i said eventually, i mean less that a value will eventually change and more that you'll discover one that you disagree with from the start
	again, something is literally always happening

[7:28 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	so a single individual could theoretically categorize all he want and not generate any hosility
	it's just functionally impossible

[7:29 AM]
zagron:
	you didnt care about wearing masks in public half a year ago, but now you probably would be very against those who wont now
	thats basically what im saying
	the act of categorizing itself can be harmless, if a computer did it
	but youre not a computer, your a human with ego on thought

[7:30 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	you're saying everyone has a trigger?
	i'm not being facetious here

[7:30 AM]
zagron:
	i know
	you probably dont want any cannibals to exist

[7:31 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	can i categorize a single thing as "abnormal" without generating hostility, as one off event? y/n

[7:31 AM]
zagron:
	of course
	and the less things you try and categorize the easier that will be

[7:32 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	:lilimok:

[7:32 AM]
zagron:
	ignorance is bliss after all
	but when your goal is to have as big of an understanding of the world as possible
	you will never come close

[7:32 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	i see

[7:32 AM]
zagron:
	you know how josh talks about how

[7:32 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	my gut reading on that is that i disagree but I don't think i have anything i can really back that up with

[7:33 AM]
zagron:
	when his family talks about alternate medicine passively
	he gets very aggressively passionate

[7:33 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	mhm

[7:33 AM]
zagron:
	the more you try and understand and learn about something, the more you'll come across standpoints that can't coexist
	again because theres no such thing as a universal norm
	being spec deck is bliss

[7:35 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	a bit nihilistic, but sound

[7:35 AM]
zagron:
	oh i dont think this is a negative or anything
	the quest for knowledge is a noble thing
	it takes tons of investment, both physically and mentally
	yeah, i can think myself above those who dont try at all
	but thats my ego speaking
	theyre a human with their own values too
	how different are we really?
	both incredibly different and exactly the same

[7:37 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	speaking of mental investment
	i've slept for 2/38 hours
	and i've gotten much more than i could've hoped from this conversation and you wrapped it up well
	and as such the only thing i can think of are shitposts so i think it's time to sleep

[7:38 AM]
zagron:
	your favorite anime has no intrinsic value

[7:38 AM]
sicko mode oboe concerto 4th mov:
	:(