easter 2017 alttp rando rage, never forget

Yogi - Yesterday at 8:43 PM
Can we get an official announcement in the announcements channel regarding logic rules for the rest of the tournament?  I though it was pretty clear that there was a feature freeze on casual mode normal until the tourney is over as was stated in the above pinned message by Karkat but I have heard rumors of this not being the case.
SeanCass - Yesterday at 8:45 PM
im not an official on it or anything
but afaik opponents can agree to new logic
otherwise the same logic we started with is still in place
the match i just did very much seemed like the old logic
as like... all the usual places had good stuff
where new logic doesnt seem to have "usual places"
Yogi - Yesterday at 8:48 PM
Yeah I need it in the announcements channel if possible by a tourney admin.
Andy - Yesterday at 8:48 PM
i think i did this seed
oops
nice chat
fcoughlin - Yesterday at 8:59 PM
I concur with yogi
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 9:03 PM
ditto
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:01 PM
all of the seeds for the round robin matches were generated before the tournament began, they all use the "old" logic, and there are enough to cover any circumstances, be they 21 tiebreaker races, or if we encounter any more unbeatable seeds aka softlocks
seeds generated on the website will use the new logic, and for that reason, karkat/mmxbass has posted a list of practice seeds in the pinned message(edited)
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:07 PM
i think the confusion is in regards to the bracket rounds
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:08 PM
Are you saying that the bracket rounds will use new logic?  I find this unacceptable to change the rules mid-tourney.  Karkat:"  I'm putting a feature freeze on casual mode normal difficulty starting tomorrow evening and continuing until the tournament is over"  The tournament is not over after group stages.
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:12 PM
therefore it's reasonable to assume that the logic will not change for the bracket rounds
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:13 PM
The last time karkat mentioned the possibility of changing to the new logic in the next round, he said it would be after discussion with the remaining participants.
Also, are we no longer able to generate seeds with the old logic on the website for practice?
Zarby89 - Yesterday at 10:14 PM
unacceptable :open_mouth: , lol it depends what is changing if it just an update of the logic this is fine
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:14 PM
I'm AFK so not looking at the site.
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 10:14 PM
@jkoper you can no longer generate seeds.
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:14 PM
100% ridiculous
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:14 PM
How is an update of the logic a feature freeze though?
Veetorp - Yesterday at 10:15 PM
what does "new logic" mean to you Yogi?
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:15 PM
that is untrue, there have been 100+ seeds posted in that pastebin above that generate old logic
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:15 PM
It's completely changing the game.
Karkat - Yesterday at 10:15 PM
There's a shitload of seeds in the sticky and we've got a thousand more
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 10:15 PM
@darkmagician1184 you can no longer generate seeds and see the spoiler or study from the logic inherent in them, correct?
Veetorp - Yesterday at 10:16 PM
study the logic?
Karkat - Yesterday at 10:17 PM
The fact that the randomizer itself is progressing without the tournament is irrelevant, veetorp isn't a tournament organizer so why exactly are we dictating what his generator does?
Anyone can play those seeds in the sticky
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:17 PM
Side question: since at least one tournament seed so far has been unbeatable, is anyone going through them before distributing them to ensure that they actually beatable?
Karkat - Yesterday at 10:18 PM
Play them all and then complain
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:18 PM
New logic means the new version that includes progression swords and gloves.  This is clearly not a feature frezze but an entirely different thing, it's like playing Ducktales in group stages so you can advance to an FF4 any% bracket.
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 10:18 PM
Because the new ruleset fundamentally alters play.  It's a completely different game.
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:18 PM
no, jkoper, the logic was flawed and the softlock is the result.  it would be unreasonable to have someone precomb each seed as we still have over 100 races to do
that is why the logic was updated, to prevent future softlocks
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:19 PM
@Yogi if you create a custom rom you can turn those progressive items off entirely
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:19 PM
but the generated seeds will not be investigated
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:19 PM
can i do a timed ohko for my bracket matches?(edited)
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:19 PM
The progressive items do tilt the game even more in favor of those who are skilled at vanilla.
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 10:19 PM
@jkoper prize packs were altered, and so was how items are slotted into locations
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:21 PM
Is it unreasonable to have someone take five minutes to look at a spoiler before distributing a seed? Certainly it's more work than it is now, but I don't think it's necessarily unreasonable.
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:21 PM
the chances of having an unbeatable seed are still so low that yes i think it would be unreasonable. my .02(edited)
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:21 PM
it would require veetorp himself to verify each seed, nobody else has access to the spoiler log
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:22 PM
It's both an honest consideration of the racers' time investment and a better presentation of the tournament.
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:22 PM
and veetorp is not always available for every match, especially at the rate of which some of the matches take place
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:22 PM
jkoper can be honorary softlock checker, its settled
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:23 PM
Feature Freeze does not include entirely rewriting the logic, you need to roll over any massive changes or improvements to Tourney #2.  Fix the bombos softlock that was created by the randomizer?  Sure.
Newlife88 - Yesterday at 10:23 PM
thank you everyone for the opportunity to play in this tournament, it has been great fun, but I spent a whole month training for this, and just because there is no way to stick to the "old logic" at least until the end of the tournament, then I hereby forfeit
if there is no way to change this
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:23 PM
and even then, it's not as simple as veetorp clicking a button to learn everything
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:23 PM
Lol nice
Leodox - Yesterday at 10:25 PM
wait what
Newlife88 - Yesterday at 10:26 PM
im .done guys, i understand veetorp is doing everything he can and he's doing a mindblowind job, but changing things mid tourney after all the time i put into this version
feels like BS and unfair, and only gonna give an even bigger edge to the top players
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:26 PM
I've never seen an unbeatable seed, and I think it's very unwise to massively change the tourney rules at this time.
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:26 PM
now newlife can't win all that prize money
Veetorp - Yesterday at 10:26 PM
@Yogi 1 race certainly had an unbeatable seed
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:27 PM
k 1 out of 100's
fix it in tourney #2
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:27 PM
I'm definitely not sure why the organizers think it is a good idea to take back promises that were made at the start of the tournament. Changing the base logic that everyone has grown accustomed to and adding progressive items are definitely significant changes.
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 10:28 PM
@Newlife88  these are my feelings pretty much.  I do very much appreciate the development.  I do this for a living and it's a ton of work.   I very much like the old patch--it creates more interesting gameplay where routing must be created on the fly.  It's very fun to have a variety of routes, all of which are potentially good.
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:28 PM
can someone tell me WHERE it was ever mentioned officially that this "new" logic would be instated to the tournament?
because i must be missing something massive here
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:29 PM
it hasnt(edited)
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:29 PM
i thought not
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:29 PM
other than to fix softlocks
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:29 PM
which is fine
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:29 PM
There would be no argument if it wasn't
So it is
Veetorp - Yesterday at 10:29 PM
We can make the tournament seeds not be progressive if that's the main complaint here
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:29 PM
was that officially the plan though @Veetorp ?
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:30 PM
The main complaint is Karkat  "I'm putting a feature freeze on casual mode normal difficulty starting tomorrow evening and continuing until the tournament is over"
Veetorp - Yesterday at 10:30 PM
the logic needed to be updated to #1 fix the soft locks #2 fix the unintended bias towards certain locations that goes against what a randomizer aims to do
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 10:30 PM
It's more than progressive though, https://pastebin.com/YmzbfKZ5 this notes many of the new features.   It's an entirely different game that honestly should have a selection from a dropdown.
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:30 PM
OK, so do it for tourney #2
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:30 PM
like jkoper said earlier, IF anything changes, it will be discussed with anyone remaining in the tournament
as I stated earlier, round robin is pre-generated, non of that logic will change
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:31 PM
people jumping the gun
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:31 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:31 PM
Do you guys understand what freeze means?
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:31 PM
tho an official word would have been appreciated
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:31 PM
It means nothing changes until the tourney is over.
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:31 PM
so no more rumors get spread, and commentators during races arent mentioning it
Veetorp - Yesterday at 10:31 PM
BUG's get fixed
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:31 PM
Fix the problems for the next tournament/
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:31 PM
and confusing the 1000s of viewers too
Veetorp - Yesterday at 10:31 PM
the item fill "logic" was bugged
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:31 PM
i believe it was always stated that bugs would be fixed.
Newlife88 - Yesterday at 10:32 PM
if it's just to fix bugs, i have no issue
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 10:32 PM
nowhere in this conversation has anyone said "No, we aren't using v19 for the knockout round" @WillardJBradley .
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:32 PM
I think you might find that some bias actually makes the routing for seeds more interesting.  I think the optimal routes are more easily identifiable with zero bias.
Veetorp - Yesterday at 10:32 PM
we can freeze features like progressives
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:32 PM
i think that's a good idea veetorp
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:32 PM
Here we go with more rule changing.
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 10:32 PM
I've seen 2 of these new seeds played, they are absolutely terrible.  9 of 33 starting chests have items.  Ther's a reason the punt to distribute items deeper in the game exists.(edited)
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:33 PM
y'all acting like this is life or death
Veetorp - Yesterday at 10:33 PM
punting items to later in the game is not random
it's biasing a randomizer
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 10:33 PM
If you were in a baseball playoff and the first round was 9 inning games, and the 2nd round was 5 inning games, wouldn't that be unacceptable? @WillardJBradley
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:33 PM
also basing the entire new logic off of 2 seeds is silly
we esports now?
Exuno - Yesterday at 10:34 PM
tangentially, is there an actual randomizer discussion discord outside of the tournament itself?
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 10:34 PM
putting so many items in the start of the game which forces 100% clears from the beginning of the game is not a randomizer
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:34 PM
Irrelevant, you are changing the pre-agreed rules of the tourney.  Your feelings on new logic being better than old logic don't matter to me, feature freeze.
Veetorp - Yesterday at 10:34 PM
if you were playing and found out all the balls in the first round were weighted unevenly, you would want even balls
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:34 PM
@Exuno https://discord.gg/4qDN4
Veetorp - Yesterday at 10:35 PM
this isn't better or worse this is a bug in the way it places items
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:35 PM
how have the rules changed?
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:35 PM
.9 launchrate kappa
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 10:35 PM
The tournament was announced as a development freeze and that it would be played under these logic rules.  I expect the tournament to be played under the rules, I think that's exactly what I'm supposed to expect and practice for.
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:35 PM
there is fixed logic, but the rule has always been, first to .done wins without the use of glitches
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:35 PM
The game's logic is entirely different, how is this a feature freeze.
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:35 PM
thats not a rule
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:36 PM
You rewrote the entire randomizer.
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:36 PM
no
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:36 PM
no
Veetorp - Yesterday at 10:36 PM
did i?
show me where
explain how?
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:36 PM
It doesn't generate the items the same way so yes?
Veetorp - Yesterday at 10:36 PM
does it?
do you know?
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:36 PM
what is complexity?
Zarby89 - Yesterday at 10:36 PM
^
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:37 PM
I've had discussions on this with other people, and I think most observers will agree: you found issues with the old logic, and you will find issues with the new logic. It's just a matter of time until the logic changes again. Changing things like item randomization and game mechanics are not clear upgrades; only things like softlock and bug fixes would be universally welcomed.
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 10:37 PM
@jkoper +1
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:38 PM
can i do an open mode for my bracket matches?
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:38 PM
No
SakuraTsubasa - Yesterday at 10:39 PM
Hey guys. imo this discussion is a discussion the people who are moving past the group rounds should be having with the organizers and not everyone weighing in their personal feelings.  This discussion is getting way too emotional now. Can we just agree that once we figure out who is moving on, they can discuss it with the organizers to work something out?
™2
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:39 PM
:ok_hand:
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:40 PM
i still think that's a rough idea, although i understand the gist of your point. my reason is because you'll still never get 42 people to agree on the same things.
SakuraTsubasa - Yesterday at 10:40 PM
No you are right. 42 people will never agree. But it's better than trying to get 100 people to agree
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:41 PM
im not going to dip out of the tournament. i have my preferences, i'd prefer no prog items in the future rounds. but the tournament is for fun, it HAS BEEN A FREAKIN' BLAST to participate in, and im here til im knocked out.
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:41 PM
Of note, it's not like there has been any name calling here. People have a right to express opinions.
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:41 PM
^
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:41 PM
I don't really see how there is any dispute with   Karkat: "I'm putting a feature freeze on casual mode normal difficulty starting tomorrow evening and continuing until the tournament is over"
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:41 PM
the flags chosen for the elimination round will be discussed when that time comes, but the website logic will remain intact.  I suggest everyone to get used to them for elimination round of the tournament and the future
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:41 PM
Clealy there is no freeze and the brackets stage is completely different to groups.
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:41 PM
well, theres our answer
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:41 PM
veetorp updated his website, that he works on by himself, those are the new logic changes, period
Veetorp - Yesterday at 10:42 PM
there are 1k seeds generated for the tournament Yogi
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:42 PM
better go practice
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:42 PM
@darkmagician1184 one question i have though, if you're insisting we get used to the "new" logic, does that essentially render karkat's 100 "old" logic seeds useless for practice?
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 10:42 PM
I really cannot agree with that @darkmagician1184 , I think there needs to be an option to generate v18.
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:42 PM
Darkmagician definitely doing a little equivocating there
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:42 PM
there are 100+ seeds in the pastebin that use v18 logic
the v18 logic will be used for AT LEAST the next 2 weeks
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:43 PM
right, but are you suggesting we practice the v19 logic? asking for clarity, i honestly don't give a shit.
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:43 PM
1k seeds of what type
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:43 PM
v18
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:43 PM
as veetorp said, there are plenty of seeds waiting and ready for whatever we decide to do for the bracket stage
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:43 PM
Is that old or new logic
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:43 PM
not new
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:43 PM
2 weeks, sure. but supposing im done with my round robin, should i be practicing v19 seeds? that's something legit i'd like to know, just for my own regimen.
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:43 PM
which will be discussed with group winners
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:43 PM
fair enough
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:44 PM
my suggestion is that if you intend on playing randomizer post-tournament, start playing v19 logic
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:44 PM
of course i do, randomizer is amazing
my priority right now however is tournament based
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:45 PM
you should download the spoiler log and study the logic
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:45 PM
indeed
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:46 PM
Best idea is to start practicing Super Metroid in case they change it to a double game Randomizer for brackets. (Forgive me, I know this is a strawman joke.)
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 10:46 PM
Outside of this tournament I'd much rather play v18 @darkmagician1184 , I've seen the new version and it's just a whole different game.
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:46 PM
rip
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:46 PM
sorry to hear that, iggy, v18 no longer exists
it is veetorps website, we are at his will
he was kind enough to generate us 100+ practice seeds, and 1000 tournament seeds should we need them
when those are gone, through v18 will no longer have new seeds(edited)
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:48 PM
when v7 was released, i stopped playing v6. v8, i stopped playing v7.
there's a joke in there about 6 being afraid of 7
but uh
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:48 PM
when i turned 27 I stopped being 26
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:48 PM
dude
wtf
you rebel
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:48 PM
Potential suggestion: if you do plan or decide on using new logic in next round, give a significant buffer time before starting the next round so that people can play and get used to the new logic.
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:49 PM
still upset about that
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:49 PM
you'll get over it once you start being upset about not being 27
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:49 PM
yes jkoper, that will be something discussed IF we go to new logic
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:49 PM
wake me up, when september ends
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:49 PM
^ i like that. edit: willard that song sucks.(edited)
uh
Zarby89 - Yesterday at 10:49 PM
lol
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 10:49 PM
I don't see why you can't just pick the version you want, it's already built in such a manner that's rather trivial to do.
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:50 PM
Can you still select v7 on the website?
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:50 PM
i have the v7 executable still
and v6, 5, and 4.
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:51 PM
Did anyone clearly say whether brackets are going to be old or new logic?  I need to know pretty much today.
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:51 PM
Well, who doesn't? My question is about website.

inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:51 PM
so then... no?
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:51 PM
Can someone check? I'm on mobile.
SakuraTsubasa - Yesterday at 10:52 PM
yes Yogi they said clearly they would discuss it with the winners of the groups(edited)
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 10:52 PM
@jkoper there's a completely new set of choices, including timed and one hit KO
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:52 PM

inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:52 PM
ftw
/end thread
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:52 PM
on second thought, forget the hookers
wait...
it's too late and I screwed that up
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:53 PM
LOL
Veetorp - Yesterday at 10:53 PM
wait, yours has hookers?
sign me up
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:53 PM
uh duh veetorp
jkoper - Yesterday at 10:53 PM
You did it right imo
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:53 PM
uncle's going out to chase fly ladies
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:53 PM
put that in ^
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:53 PM
that's a thing actually
i've seen that text once or twice
Zarby89 - Yesterday at 10:54 PM
anyone wanna try the version 1.3 Kreygasm ?
i still have it
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:54 PM
@darkmagician1184 :eyes:
Newlife88 - Yesterday at 10:55 PM
if veetorp created 1000 seeds pre tournament, cant we use them for the bracket phase?
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:56 PM
potentially
Newlife88 - Yesterday at 10:56 PM
omg
why dont say that before
AaronDobbe - Yesterday at 10:56 PM
+1 to everything jkoper's said so far; to change the game in the middle of the tournament feels like pulling the rug out from the competitors who spent time practicing VT8v18 and (intentionally or unintentionally) internalized and built strategies around its biases. I do understand the circumstances and that there hasn't been an official decision yet, but it's concerning given that the v19 logic seems to contradict what we were told re: "feature freeze"
Newlife88 - Yesterday at 10:56 PM
and cause all this rucuss
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 10:56 PM
it has been stated, multiple times
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:57 PM
So you are discussing the tourney rules that have already been put in place with people that make it to brackets so everyone can pick the one they think they have the bigger advantage in?
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 10:57 PM
the rumor come out
Newlife88 - Yesterday at 10:57 PM
i've only known about that for the last 10 messages in here
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:57 PM
Can you like just be admins, and decide right now.
epicYoshi64 - Yesterday at 10:57 PM
does bracket is v19
👌1
Zarby89 - Yesterday at 10:57 PM
:thinking:
Newlife88 - Yesterday at 10:58 PM
1000 seeds is more than enough to finish this tournament
Zarby89 - Yesterday at 10:58 PM
read the 94394 messages before and you'll know
Newlife88 - Yesterday at 10:58 PM
and maybe one more after that Kappa
lol zarby
foosda - Yesterday at 10:58 PM
I don't really mind either way, but an announcement of what will happen would go a long way of solving confusion at least, dm
Yogi - Yesterday at 10:58 PM
People are not going to read 8 million messages, there needs to be an announcement.
foosda - Yesterday at 10:58 PM
gonna halfass my way to brackets, probably
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 10:58 PM
that's the spirit @foosda !
Newlife88 - Yesterday at 11:00 PM
so zarby ive checked all of today messages nothing says about that, until these last hour messages
Zarby89 - Yesterday at 11:00 PM
i don't care either way, because even if the new logic is used your oponent is probably gonna be like you with only few seeds played on that new logic
emma - Yesterday at 11:00 PM
I read the 8 million messages :frowning:
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 11:00 PM
an official announcement will be made when things are decided.  the only announcement that has been made, non-tournament related btw, is veetorp has updated his website to vt8 v19 logic, it also adds new customizable flags; because of this logic change on his website, 100+ practice seeds have been released to tournament participants
foosda - Yesterday at 11:00 PM
lmao, I've only played one v18 rando seed outside of this tournament
Newlife88 - Yesterday at 11:00 PM
just today's xD
foosda - Yesterday at 11:01 PM
just play game
Yogi - Yesterday at 11:01 PM
I don't really want to wait 2 weeks to learn the rules of the tourney I;m in
foosda - Yesterday at 11:01 PM
you'll probably lose to not checking that one item spot anyway
:smiley:
Zarby89 - Yesterday at 11:01 PM
^ i'll probably be elimated from the tourney because of that anyways(edited)
darkmagician1184 - Yesterday at 11:03 PM
it's been fun guys, but I'm going to bed.  I have a long day of easter with 3 families tomorrow, dragging around 4 rugrats.  keep it civil, pls
WillardJBradley - Yesterday at 11:03 PM
oh snap, im going to the beach tmr morning
night @darkmagician1184
anyone up for a race?
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 11:07 PM
@darkmagician1184 happy easter mate.
Newlife88 - Yesterday at 11:14 PM
v8? @WillardJBradley Kappa
😄3
jkoper - Yesterday at 11:25 PM
We can still race seeds from that practice list of course. I plan on it when I get home tomorrow night.
Kanzeon - Yesterday at 11:26 PM
As long as it's still possible to practice VT8 I'm cool with it
Progressive logic is really gonna be a kick in the balls though
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 11:26 PM
you mean vt8 18?
Kanzeon - Yesterday at 11:26 PM
Whatever the version was when we started lol
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 11:26 PM
vt8 18 has the 100 seeds karkat posted, and it seems that's it at this point
yeah that
the website now has vt8 19
Kanzeon - Yesterday at 11:27 PM
That's the progressive logic?
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 11:27 PM
but those 100 seeds will take some time to get through lol
i believe it's implemented into it as well
but
if you do a custom seed on the website, you can turn progressive items off
Kanzeon - Yesterday at 11:27 PM
Ahh, okay, that's kinda neat
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 11:27 PM
yup
AaronDobbe - Yesterday at 11:27 PM
you can switch off prog items but you can't go back to v18 logic, hence the practice seeds we've been provided
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 11:28 PM
^ also yup
Kanzeon - Yesterday at 11:28 PM
Was there really anything significant regarding the logic that makes practicing cumbersome?
It was really just "these item spots have items more often than not" from what I remember
AaronDobbe - Yesterday at 11:29 PM
well, that's enough to undermine any practice you've already done on v18
Kanzeon - Yesterday at 11:29 PM
It's still pretty easy to just keep in the back of your mind
hey I should probably turn this mushroom in
idk maybe I'm just thinking too simplistic regarding it lol
AaronDobbe - Yesterday at 11:30 PM
just by playing it a bunch you get that mental iceberg built up and get accustomed to the game's biases, whether you try to do so or not
Wulfy - Yesterday at 11:30 PM
basically places like pyramid, spectacle rock, old man on the mountain, zora, hobo aren't as important
Kanzeon - Yesterday at 11:30 PM
Right right
Wulfy - Yesterday at 11:30 PM
so just deprioritise those
and increase priority on early-available places like sahas hut, eastern palace
Kanzeon - Yesterday at 11:31 PM
Man going to Eastern early is such a drag
I hate having to do that place twice
Wulfy - Yesterday at 11:31 PM
also don't ignore desert cave / ice cave too long
Kanzeon - Yesterday at 11:33 PM
Damn ice cave
inthenameofDT - Yesterday at 11:36 PM
the best point that's been made in all of this is that we all have the same advantage/disadvantage to the new version. it just came out.
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 11:37 PM
I don't quite agree
But it is different, you absolutely may enjoy it more.
Kanzeon - Yesterday at 11:41 PM
I definitely don't think the advantages are the same under progressive logic
it only favors NMG runners even more heavily
Not comfortable with Master Sword Ganon? Better find another sword upgrade
Not comfortable with blue mail?  Better find both
Exuno - Yesterday at 11:43 PM
kind of agree that the progressive upgrades, especially progressive gloves are a huge change and I don't know I'd like seeing them in the bracket stage
Kanzeon - Yesterday at 11:43 PM
the fact that you -always- find the worst level still in play just amplifies the skill discrepancy
Exuno - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
that seems to be a common opinion though, so i'm not worried about that. the item placement biases are something i'll need to see a bunch of new seeds for to tell if it really makes a difference
Kanzeon - Yesterday at 11:45 PM
also kinda takes away the excitement of finding end-game equipment early on
but that's less of a concern imo
like it's nice how we have dynamic seeds where you can get garbage early game and have a seed favoring combat
or endgame stuff early and have a seed favoring movement
Progressive logic seems to remove that and sort of streamlines everything
Seeds kinda lose their identity, in a way
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 11:50 PM
My experience so far is there's absolutely no reward for risk taking, skipping anything tactically has such a large punishment that it will become a 100% race.  Will you get every last chest? no, but the winning search agent is just not interesting--it's the same one every time.
Exuno - Yesterday at 11:53 PM
the winning search agent will always be the same if the seeds are using the same logic, that's just how search agents and randomization work
it just means that risks are exactly as much of risks as they should be, instead of secretly being less than they first appeared
MotherTruckinIggy - Yesterday at 11:53 PM
it depends on what the AI Agent is doing
because there's no heuristic function, the best chest is 'always' the one that costs the least to acquire.
April 16, 2017
Mysticum [UTC/GMT +2, Sweden] - Today at 1:12 AM
That was quite a discussion...not sure if another person diving into it will help, but I do agree with Yogi that if a ruleset was defined, that has to be followed through the tournament, at least as long as one concerning part is not agreeing to changed terms (like the bracket could be played with old logic for those matches where both participants doesn't agree to play the new seed).
With that said, was it actually said that old or current logic would be set fixed for the entire tournament? Karkat's message about a freeze for casual mode is not necessarily the same...seeds generated for the tournament has been in a tournament mode, and the official rules on Challonge just specify VT8, which the new logic still is (VT8 V18 -> VT8 V19).
Yogi - Today at 1:28 AM
Which version/logic is better or more fun or whatnot is largely unimportant at the moment.  The problem here is some incredibly rare bug happened that made a seed unwinnable(probably won't see another one), and because of it we can't get a straight answer from tourney organizers on which type of version/logic will happen in brackets even though a feature freeze on the tourney was already put into place.  Typically feature freeze means nothing changes until tourney is over, but new and old logic are clearly not the same regardless of what number you tack onto the end of the version.
MotherTruckinIggy - Today at 1:29 AM
Seconded.
ChristosOwen - Today at 1:39 AM
Hi
Mysticum [UTC/GMT +2, Sweden] - Today at 1:40 AM
I agree with you Yogi, if it can be determined that a tournament freeze was set in motion. For me, Karkat's statement doesn't really mean the tournament is set to play a certain version
It does, most likely, mean that "regular" group stage seeds should be available, however, which they still are...
ChristosOwen - Today at 1:41 AM
Everyone in group stages will play the same v18 seeds, and there are plenty to practice. The plan is (was) for everyone who makes it to single elims to then move on to the updated v19. Everyone would be on a level and fair playing field. If the people going into single elims have significant problems with that we can discuss it. If you're not making it through then it's pretty irrelevant as nothing is changing for group stage
The item fill logic that has been overhauled was unintentionally biasing locations previously, we didn't know that before the tournament began, so we have fixed it
It was not a feature, it was a bug that needed fixing
We have fixed keylocks, bugs and some item requirement bugs
The progressive items is a planned change we wanted to include for the single elims to give things a nice flavour change, we (I) thought it would be a fun change for the racers and commentators
It's not going anywhere, it has been planned to go into the randomizer for a long time
If the people in the single elims are mainly against it, we can remove that portion of the update, but the rest will remain since it is fixing things wrong with the randomizer. Post-tournament progressive equipment will be a feature regardless though
It's the same game. It just randomizes the items fairly now. The item fill logic does not mean there are new things to learn or suddenly everything you've practicted is invalid
If you're concerned about having a worse sword because of progressive items, there are a wealth of people and resources here who are willing to help you improve or answer questions(edited)
MotherTruckinIggy - Today at 1:47 AM
Sorry that makes no sense to claim that as a bug.  The code was presented at the start of this tournament and it was explicitly told there would be a freeze on development.  It was said that the branch being developed wasn't even part of what would be involved in the tournament.  There should be absolutely no question but to use only v18 seeds, period.   The game is completely different.
ChristosOwen - Today at 1:48 AM
It most certainly was a fault with the randomizer
MotherTruckinIggy - Today at 1:48 AM
Why?  It generates playable seeds based on an AI searching agent
ChristosOwen - Today at 1:48 AM
In a biased and unfair way
MotherTruckinIggy - Today at 1:48 AM
Define biased?  The seeds made by v19 are also biased
It really doesn't matter.  The rules were stated clearly at the start of the tournament, they should not change now.
ChristosOwen - Today at 1:49 AM
Certain locations were far more probable to have progressive items based on how the algorithm worked. That bias has been removed
It's much better now than it used to be. I don't know why you're so upset
MotherTruckinIggy - Today at 1:51 AM
So now it's more probable that other locations have items.  Also altered how drop tables work, how chest game works, how item progression works (upgraded items).  It's a completely different game, it's unfair to the players who have practiced the version they were told would be used for the tournament.
I think v19 is terrible, it generates boring play.  But that's really not what I'm focusing on here.  The tournament was stated as v18, it needs to stay v18.
ChristosOwen - Today at 1:52 AM
The chest game had a bug removed (100 rupees was guaranteed, it shouldn't have been). I already mentioned about progressive equipment just above. All item locations now have an equal chance for having a progression item (as was initially intended)
It's a for fun video game tournament, and I'm sorry you think the new version is so bad with such a limited sample and playtime
MotherTruckinIggy - Today at 1:53 AM
You don't seem to get it.  It was stated at the start of this tournament that this is what we were playing with for the tournament...no development.
You are forcibly making changes that are arbitrarily counted as bugs.  A bug is it generating an unplayable game.  The game as it was is how needs to be played for the tournament.(edited)
ChristosOwen - Today at 1:54 AM
Which group are you in?
Oh you're Iggy
MotherTruckinIggy - Today at 1:54 AM
Greetings
Kanzeon - Today at 2:39 AM
I don't mind the new distribution logic but the more I hear about progressive the less I like about it imo
WillardJBradley - Today at 2:46 AM
:eyes:
Yogi - Today at 2:52 AM
Where is this so called "plan" that stated brackets are v19?  It literally says VT8 on Challonge and if you call new logic VT8-XXX then I call nonsense.  The only info available to me is Karkat saying "I'm putting a feature freeze on casual mode normal difficulty starting tomorrow evening and continuing until the tournament is over"  Old logic works completely fine asides from Bombos jumping softlocks(actually a bug).  The way you code item generation is perhaps not intended but certainly not a bug.  To say old logic is unfair is false, you can say it's less random than new logic but in terms of a 1v1 race I don't see the problem.  Waiting 5 weeks for brackets to learn the rules of the tourney I'm in is unacceptable.  Can you just make an announcement now with the rules so people can decide if they want to continue or not, this really isn't that difficult.
adirondackrick - Today at 2:52 AM
Wow. I missed a lot.
And, uh, Happy Easter.
Kanzeon - Today at 2:56 AM
I'll race whatever but I feel like progressive makes races -less- interesting overall
WillardJBradley - Today at 2:57 AM
yo Rick o/
Kanzeon - Today at 2:57 AM
There's no excitement of finding a late game item early, there's not nearly as much variance
WillardJBradley - Today at 2:58 AM
you could find all 3 sword upgrades in kakariko village
you never know
Kanzeon - Today at 2:58 AM
Yeah but that's obviously an extreme outlier
Exuno - Today at 2:58 AM
progressive gloves really makes the way the game opens up change a lot from what most of the races have been using, I think that would be a poor change to make
WillardJBradley - Today at 2:59 AM
id say do about 10 play throughs of the new logic before jumping to conclusions
ive only done 2
so i cant say much
Kanzeon - Today at 2:59 AM
I feel progressive gloves makes the game far more "linear"
and progressive swords does nothing but swing the game even more in favor of NMG runners
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:00 AM
i mean, even with early titans mitts theres not much to do without pearl too
aside from some super bunnies
Exuno - Today at 3:00 AM
there's always checker cave :D
Kanzeon - Today at 3:00 AM
Another issue with progressive that I think is overlooked is the confusion it would create among new viewers/players
Exuno - Today at 3:01 AM
i'm pretty sure it wouldn't be confusing
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:01 AM
shoutout to checkboard cave
Kanzeon - Today at 3:01 AM
We saw it the other day when Master Sword was at Lumberjacks and then was later found in Kakariko
"Why are there two master swords?"
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:01 AM
right, new viewers are always gonna be asking questions
thats why we have commentators
Kanzeon - Today at 3:02 AM
Yeah but at that point you're making the game -more- complicated, not less
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:02 AM
keep randomizer random
Kanzeon - Today at 3:02 AM
and for pretty much no payoff
adirondackrick - Today at 3:02 AM
Personally, if the brains said a developmental freeze until the tournament is done, then it should of stayed that way, with any updates being those to fix fatal bugs that would of been disastrous when shown in a race. Now I know there were a lot pushing for a prog item update, especially when butter/Mail were easily found more often than not.

I think it would of been a better idea to push that as post-tourney release. It is a big change from what everyone had trained for. And the viewers will have to get used to these the same. And thus my feeling is that the tournament should remain based on the non-prog logic like it has for 150+ matches now.

To me, it doesn't matter. I'm here to have fun. I'm still planning on going out Wednesday with a blast.
foosda - Today at 3:02 AM
maybe it swings in favor of actual runners, but its boring af to see and play golden sword + silvers in like 80% of seeds
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:02 AM
agreed
Kanzeon - Today at 3:02 AM
Progressive is one of those things I'd rather see as a side option, like open mode, which I understand is what it is
Exuno - Today at 3:02 AM
it doesn't change silvers at all
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:03 AM
From a gameplay perspective I like the idea of progressives and such
But from a tournament perspective, changing the rules mid-event is pretty bad
Yogi - Today at 3:03 AM
It doesn't matter what's boring or not, fix things for tourney#2
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:03 AM
It was very clear at the start of the tournament that all updates were being deferred until after the event
And we've been operating under that assumption
If it were stated at the start new logic was coming in-between rounds, it would be different
adirondackrick - Today at 3:03 AM
And with that said, I'm going back to bed.
Kanzeon - Today at 3:03 AM
If you wanted to make the playoffs "more interesting", then making them Open Mode would've been a better move than this imo
foosda - Today at 3:03 AM
honestly, they should just randomize the rules every match
Kanzeon - Today at 3:03 AM
but I can see why it should remain as is
LOL rule randomizer
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:04 AM
Like I deliberately avoided playing new logic seeds to avoid interfering with my analysis  of tournament matches
foosda - Today at 3:04 AM
"ok for this match you're not allowed to use your left hand, gl nerd"
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:04 AM
But now I've disadvantaged myself
Yogi - Today at 3:04 AM
There is no move, there is just no confirmation of the actual rules for brackets
for some reason
foosda - Today at 3:04 AM
probably because people are super butthurt
just chill, yo
its a game
play game
Kanzeon - Today at 3:05 AM
Yeah some people are getting legit heated over this
Yogi - Today at 3:05 AM
so the plan is practice whatever and figure it out later? seems good
foosda - Today at 3:05 AM
pretty much
Yogi - Today at 3:05 AM
good tourney
foosda - Today at 3:05 AM
if you wanted to actually practice things
there's a practice rom
for alttp
load that up and do yourself a favor
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:05 AM
I think it's very important to clearly announce rules before an event and then stick to them strictly
Exuno - Today at 3:05 AM
practicing your movement is going to help way more than figuring out the exact biases of item placement, guaranteed
foosda - Today at 3:05 AM
way better than "practicing" randomizer lmao
Yogi - Today at 3:05 AM
and 2 sets of logic with 2 completely different games
foosda - Today at 3:05 AM
surprise, some of the best randomizer runners are great nmg runners
Exuno - Today at 3:06 AM
dude the logic isn't that different
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:06 AM
It honestly doesn't matter if it's only trivially different
Yogi - Today at 3:06 AM
that statement isn't very logical but ok
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:06 AM
You gotta stick to the rules announced before the event started
foosda - Today at 3:06 AM
literally crying over this man
"muh rules"
idk
I should just go to bed
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:06 AM
nothing is set in stone yet
foosda - Today at 3:06 AM
just funny tbh
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:06 AM
first y'all gotta make it to the brackets
Yogi - Today at 3:07 AM
wow never muted someone on discord before
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:07 AM
then you can complain
Yogi - Today at 3:07 AM
gg
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:07 AM
Just because some people don't care doesn't mean that it's unreasonable for others to care
foosda - Today at 3:07 AM
no ofc not
but other people can have opinions that yours are overblown
Kanzeon - Today at 3:07 AM
I have my opinions but at the end of the day if it is decided otherwise I'm not gonna be bothered by it
it's a tournament for fun so
adirondackrick - Today at 3:08 AM
Yeah but right now an announcement needs to be loudly stated because of how people are reacting. And it needs to be official and held to.
Kanzeon - Today at 3:08 AM
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:08 AM
it'd be different if there was money on the line
this is supposed to be FUN
foosda - Today at 3:08 AM
I'd just like to let the organizers know that they have a friend to let them know I trust them to do whatever is fun and interesting
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:08 AM
I've been very calm here, but I think it's pretty clear there's an objectively right and objectively wrong decision from a tournament administration perspective
foosda - Today at 3:08 AM
thanks guys :smiley:
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:08 AM
but once again, nothing is decided yet
foosda - Today at 3:09 AM
gotta be rough to hear nothing but whining when you even mention changing things
Yogi - Today at 3:09 AM
The thing is it's not fun when I spend 5 weeks playing 1 game and then get to brackets maybe, and quit because I don't like the new rules
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:09 AM
just focus on your group matches
we'll worry about this later
Yogi - Today at 3:09 AM
rules that were created mid-tourney
adirondackrick - Today at 3:09 AM
What's this fun you speak of Willard?
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:09 AM
Why wouldn't you expect whining if you announce rule changes mid-event?
That would happen in any tournament for any rule change
The solution is to never do that
Exuno - Today at 3:09 AM
kind of agreed, a statement of "Unless everyone who advances into brackets agrees to a different ruleset at that point, we're using the already generated .18 seeds" would be great
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:09 AM
right
Yogi - Today at 3:09 AM
You say focus on group matches, but thats a possible 2 weeks wasted
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:10 AM
yogi.. you still have to win your matches
Yogi - Today at 3:10 AM
And?
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:10 AM
so worry about this stuff afterwards
Yogi - Today at 3:10 AM
what's the point if I hate the brackets round, why should I even try
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:10 AM
then forfeit and move on
write a letter
Kanzeon - Today at 3:10 AM
The main thing is there hasn't been a concrete decision one way or the other yet
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:10 AM
It's also reasonable from a competitor's perspective to prepare for later rounds before earlier rounds are finished
Kanzeon - Today at 3:11 AM
they said they would gather input from those who qualify
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:11 AM
So if the logic is going to be different, every competitor would probably want to be preparing now
Yogi - Today at 3:11 AM
^
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:11 AM
sounds like theres gonna be a break between the start of the next round
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:11 AM
At least those who at this stage feel they have a strong chance to advance
Kanzeon - Today at 3:11 AM
I can see your point there
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:12 AM
just in case we gotta learn this new update
but
nothing is set in stone
adirondackrick - Today at 3:12 AM
I get where Yogi's going with this. You say focus on your group but if you move on, you possibly have to face opponents in new logic who have a leg up on you because they have a 2 week head start figuring out the new logic.
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:12 AM
hopefully all this talk has sparked our lovely tourney organizers to come to a conclusive decision
Kanzeon - Today at 3:12 AM
I can't imagine new logic is that big a change, it's progressive that's the major thing imo
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:12 AM
until then, i think we've all voiced our opinions enough
foosda - Today at 3:12 AM
wait no
I need to input my opinion again
for an umpteenth time
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:12 AM
foosda PLEASE
Kanzeon - Today at 3:12 AM
lol
foosda - Today at 3:12 AM
guys
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:12 AM
lol
foosda - Today at 3:13 AM
if I don't say what I think
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:13 AM
Here's the funny thing; if it were announced this way from the start, I actually would have been 100% for it
foosda - Today at 3:13 AM
every half hour
people will forget
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:13 AM
I like the idea of the new logic and the progressives
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:13 AM
i like it too
tho i def need to practice
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:13 AM
My concern is 100% tournament procedure
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:13 AM
and i understand where yogi is coming from too
Exuno - Today at 3:13 AM
i mean, new logic couldn't have been announced because they didn't realize that it wasn't already like that
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:13 AM
I'd rather the event be as fair as possible than play with more interesting logic
Kanzeon - Today at 3:13 AM
I don't think I've been paying very close attention to what was said but yeah, if it was stated updates would be on hold until after the tournament
then it should remain that way
Yogi - Today at 3:14 AM
It's pinned by Karkat
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:14 AM
new logic was also going towards fixing an unplanned bug
but eh
Yogi - Today at 3:14 AM
But they twist words and call old logic a bug which is nonsense.
adirondackrick - Today at 3:14 AM
BUT -- Tourney Admin needs to read all of this and come to the conclusion that changing any rules mid-tourney is bad for business and thus to keep tourney the same old logic/set until the end.
foosda - Today at 3:14 AM
bad for business?
hahahah
alright
really, I gotta go to bed
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:14 AM
I think all of us who play a lot of randos know that impossible seeds are a risk we run
foosda - Today at 3:14 AM
good material though, ty
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:14 AM
i want my money back
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:15 AM
If it happens in tournament, the race is obviously a wash and would just have to have a do-over
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:15 AM
take my money outta the prize pool
adirondackrick - Today at 3:15 AM
You know what I meant. :P
Kanzeon - Today at 3:15 AM
This line from Chris: "The progressive items is a planned change we wanted to include for the single elims to give things a nice flavour change, we (I) thought it would be a fun change for the racers and commentators"
is probably the thing I have the biggest issue with
😃1
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:15 AM
i think theres only been 1 impossible seed so far
Kanzeon - Today at 3:15 AM
like have the races so far -not- been fun?
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:15 AM
once again, nothing is decided
but now we know what the organizers/devs have been planning
theyve seen the outcry
ive already seen veetorp reconsidering progressive
Kanzeon - Today at 3:16 AM
Yeah imma just wait and see what comes from this topic later today
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:16 AM
in the next round
so lets just hold on, put away our pitchforks
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:16 AM
I think being very clear about opinions does not hurt
I didn't read back a lot
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:17 AM
nope
people going to far tho
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:17 AM
I dunno if people were actually being aggressive
So far I have only seen strong opinions
Yogi - Today at 3:17 AM
I just want the rules today of the tourney I am in, not waiting 2 weeks.
aka 5 weeks
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:18 AM
well hopefully we'll get em sooner than that
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:18 AM
I do have some degree of sympathy; there's no way they expected this tournament to be anywhere near this big
Kanzeon - Today at 3:18 AM
Yeah I don't think it's going to take 2 weeks to decide
Exuno - Today at 3:18 AM
yeah, it's literally six in the morning for most of the organizers and the topic only came up last night
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:19 AM
This sort of thing would be a lot easier to sort out just kinda casually if it were like a 40 person tournament with stream viewership sub-100 people
But that's not how it turned out
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:19 AM
its been a hot topic all week, or at least since the practice seeds started rolling out
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:19 AM
At this point I think people are feeling really invested
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:19 AM
a lot of confusion on and off stream too
full transparency would be much appreciated
Mysticum [UTC/GMT +2, Sweden] - Today at 3:19 AM
I'm still curious Where it has been stated that VT8 V18 is The version for the whole tournament, cause I haven't seen anything about that
Exuno - Today at 3:19 AM
well, the new logic has been around, i think last night was the first mention it might be used for brackets
Yogi - Today at 3:20 AM
I mean it literally says VT8 on Challonge, if you call new logic VT8-XXX or whatever and say its the same thing I call nonsense.
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:20 AM
i know progressives have been in talk for a few weeks
adirondackrick - Today at 3:20 AM
And that's when it went down.
And my sleep cycle was ruined
Exuno - Today at 3:20 AM
progressives have been in talk in a 'that would be a neat randomizer feature'
Mysticum [UTC/GMT +2, Sweden] - Today at 3:21 AM
I don't fully agree with that, but I do agree that transparency and keeping your word is extremely important in the matter
Kanzeon - Today at 3:21 AM
@Mysticum [UTC/GMT +2, Sweden] I think the line in question was this from Karkat: "I'm putting a feature freeze on casual mode normal difficulty starting tomorrow evening and continuing until the tournament is over"
Exuno - Today at 3:21 AM
but as stated, there's a pinned messge that says any features wouldn't be made standard until after the tournament
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:21 AM
well, i think the viewers are enjoying the show regardless
its the runners that are hurting
well, some of us
adirondackrick - Today at 3:21 AM
They are. And they will regardless of what happens.
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:21 AM
I mean, it's kinda intertwined
Mysticum [UTC/GMT +2, Sweden] - Today at 3:21 AM
@Kanzeon Yeah, but I don't think that statement means VT8 V18 explicitly...putting a freeze on future features for the web client doesn't mean anything for what version is played in the tournament
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:22 AM
Like when I think that any given tournament race I might be in front of 2000 people
Kanzeon - Today at 3:22 AM
Progressive logic is -certainly- a feature
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:22 AM
I suddenly take it a whole lot more seriously that I'm putting on a show at the highest level of my ability
Kanzeon - Today at 3:22 AM
it's even a togglable option on the VT page
Exuno - Today at 3:22 AM
yeah, as a viewer who's not entered or organizing the tournament at all, i can say the races will be great and we won't care whatever you do
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:22 AM
Like when I derped hard in dark Turtle Rock, it bothered me a lot more than it would normally bother me
Yogi - Today at 3:22 AM
Completely changing the logic is certainly not a freeze of any sort
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:22 AM
i only wish i didnt schedule mine so early, when the tourney was often around 600-900
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:22 AM
Because I was showing bad play to a big crowd
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:22 AM
then 2 people from my group forfeit
still bummed
Mysticum [UTC/GMT +2, Sweden] - Today at 3:23 AM
They claimed freeze was for the web client, not a freeze on what seeds are played in the tournament...huge difference imo
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:23 AM
I'm pretty sure it was stated in different ways various times
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:23 AM
lol, i mirrored outta Mire in the middle of doing the dark rooms lampless
still haunts me
Exuno - Today at 3:23 AM
@Mysticum [UTC/GMT +2, Sweden] technically the webclient is already updated and that's a lie now, so
adirondackrick - Today at 3:23 AM
Given that I had two races where I was confused and lost I felt that same embarrassment AA
Mysticum [UTC/GMT +2, Sweden] - Today at 3:23 AM
Well, if it was stated, then it's crystal clear
Kanzeon - Today at 3:23 AM
Why freeze updates at all if it wasn't for tournament consistency?
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:24 AM
also they supposedly have upwards of 1000 seeds saved to use for the tourney
of the old logic
Mysticum [UTC/GMT +2, Sweden] - Today at 3:24 AM
I love this tournament, and the organizers for it, but no doubt, communication and explicit details/information could have been much better
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:24 AM
so if people dont agree to new logic.. we've got em
Yogi - Today at 3:24 AM
@Mysticum [UTC/GMT +2, Sweden]  You are basically saying casual mode normal difficulty old logic is the same as casual mode normal difficulty new logic which simply isn't true.
Mysticum [UTC/GMT +2, Sweden] - Today at 3:24 AM
No, I am not saying that at all Yogi
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:25 AM
I remember how close to the event happening a few of us had to get loud over the rules for emulator users; I really think a lot of this is just that they weren't prepared for the scope of what the event became and thus how inevitably super seriously all rules issues must be taken
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:25 AM
i still leave my input display on
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:25 AM
When you're dealing with 108 competitors being watched by thousands, anything that is not like 100% unarguably clear and narrow is going to cause huge concerns
adirondackrick - Today at 3:25 AM
also bear in mind it's 6 in the morning (East Coast) on a holiday. So it's not likely we're going to see an answer while we go back and forth here.
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:25 AM
we've already got an answer from some of em
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 3:25 AM
And yeah, every time something sketchy has happened in any tournament race I've seen, chat has gone absolutely crazy over it
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:26 AM
nothing definitive
kinda a wait and see situation
Kanzeon - Today at 3:26 AM
I think we've only heard a bit from Chris but it's certainly not fair to throw it all on him
Yogi - Today at 3:26 AM
People don't want to wait though
Mysticum [UTC/GMT +2, Sweden] - Today at 3:26 AM
Well, this is why it's always good to clear up as many things as possible forehand...but it is the first tournament in its kind so can't expect everything to be perfect...
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:26 AM
well, looks like we gonna wait
adirondackrick - Today at 3:27 AM
But it's 6am. They're gonna have to.
Mysticum [UTC/GMT +2, Sweden] - Today at 3:27 AM
I understand that people don't want to wait around, especially with games to come, but at least give the organizers a chance to collaberate and discuss the matter at hand...
adirondackrick - Today at 3:27 AM
Yup
Kanzeon - Today at 3:27 AM
I don't think all of us are going to be grinding and studying tournament logic all Easter
Maybe Acmlm but not everyone :wink:
adirondackrick - Today at 3:28 AM
And read the 400 messages over the past 6 hours.
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:28 AM
i will now post the entire script to the Bee Movie
and bury this thread
Kanzeon - Today at 3:28 AM
Oh god
anything but that
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:28 AM
According to all known laws
of aviation,
Kanzeon - Today at 3:28 AM
stop
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:28 AM
there is no way a bee
should be able to fly.
adirondackrick - Today at 3:32 AM
We can't stop now.
Willards on go mode.
😄1
WillardJBradley - Today at 3:32 AM
got my mastersword, blue mail... no silvers
welp
tzoonami - Today at 4:01 AM
i for one support new logic that forces every bottle to have a bee
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:02 AM
@Veetorp ^^^^^^^
ChristosOwen - Today at 4:09 AM
I have other things on today, I can't read everything in here. I will speak to the other admins and we'll discuss what to do. If you've already voiced your opinion, it has been noted, so please don't keep stirring things up
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:10 AM
I don't mind a logic change, but I do prefer a message in #announcements somewhere after Easter or so, so that invested people can actually figure out whether they need to adapt to it.
That's my 2 cents on it ^^
sportsjefe - Today at 4:10 AM
boy, looks like i picked a big night to finally find the discord.
ChristosOwen - Today at 4:11 AM
We're going to obviously keep the softlock and bug fixes. The item fill logic I will argue is a fault with the randomizer that needed to be addressed, so I am reluctant to remove that update either. We worked really hard on improving it, in our own free time, so the product would be better and fairer for everyone. If people don't want the "new features" like progressive items, that's okay, we can make that decision with the people who make it through group stage when it comes to it. If even one person is against it, we won't do it
👍3
There really isn't anything to relearn because of the item fill logic, your time so far practicing isn't wasted. Each item location is now more fairly balanced, that's literally it.
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:13 AM
I'd argue it's actually the hardest thing to relearn
Quickly making correct route decisions in the heat of a game is really based on typical patterns
The new logic is likely better pattern wise
But it's certainly different
ChristosOwen - Today at 4:13 AM
There isn't meant to be any patterns, it's meant to be purely random... randomizer no?
That's what we're trying to nullify
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:14 AM
I mean, patterns to some extent are inevitable
And it's definitely a real strat to try to find and use them
ChristosOwen - Today at 4:14 AM
as for V8 vs V9 developments: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rcIpr-1chTGtgmaYY6wyV1DeOoWqBcYF8kXWcpQwFRU/
for visibility, you can see what is included in V8 vs V9
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:14 AM
so now pyramid is potentially as  valuable as ice rod cave?
ChristosOwen - Today at 4:15 AM
yes, all item locations are simply as equal as they can be
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:15 AM
despite the requirements for pyramid item
ChristosOwen - Today at 4:15 AM
there has to be progression items to open up locations, so obviously locations which are hard to reach are less likely, but that's the way it is. the algorithm distributes everything without bias now
take everything from V9 onwards with a pinch of salt, nothing is set in stone yet
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:16 AM
keep randomizer random
sounds good
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:17 AM
Purely as a player who knows any wins I get have to come from routing, I know I've deliberately avoided all v9 so my intuition of v8 locations would be unaltered, and once I start playing v9, I'd want to play many dozens of seeds with the new fill logic before I'd be even a little comfortable doing a tournament race in it
And once I start playing v9 I'd want to never play a single v8 again of course
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:17 AM
you still have one match left in your group, right?
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:18 AM
I do
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:18 AM
gl mate
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:18 AM
Which means that if v9 logic might be used I'd need to try to have it ASAP so I would have max prep time for v9 logic
Since I really can't practice it until I've done every group match
ChristosOwen - Today at 4:18 AM
ultimately all the other admins are asleep and it's easter sunday and easter monday tomorrow. we'll discuss with each other as soon as we can
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:19 AM
Yeah I do feel that my routing is quite different during newer logic seeds
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:19 AM
thanks Christos
have a splendid holiday
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:19 AM
but yeah, I'll await the announcement after the holidays ^^
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:19 AM
If I had to guess, less aggressive Agahnim killing?
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:19 AM
I'll probably play a healthy mix of logic during the monday
less ignoring aginah and ice rod cave for starters
Eastern is a good gamble too
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:20 AM
Less hardcore rush up Death Mountain and into spectacle rock?
Less early money farming because you know how often seeds funnel to King Zora?
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:20 AM
moon pearl was still on pyramid in the weekly today
which was the last thing i did
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:21 AM
I'll probably get to them at some point but not that much rushing. It's not all too different though
Yeah I did agah last in that weekly
around 34 minutes in(edited)
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:21 AM
Yeah, in v8 I consider Eastern without the Bow almost literally the last thing I want to do
Maybe I want to do it before pendant Turtle Rock
That's about how lowly I value that as a move
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:22 AM
that said, the odds of the moon pearl being there is just generally lower than in the old logic
I've played a few other new logic seeds
I generally still end up sub 2 with most seeds
you just get many items at first
with a bit lower HP
Mikan - Today at 4:22 AM
the weekly was super fun btw. was my first actual race
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:22 AM
eastern had firerod, bow was deep in darkworld
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:22 AM
I find myself having most of the medallions, and a lot of other menu items
before actually getting progression items
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:23 AM
I do wonder what the ratios are going to work out to on likely final swords with progressives
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:23 AM
but it saves looking for items late game
Basically early game is more important in logic 19 from what I played
I think I've done 5 new logic seeds so far, to put that in perspective
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:23 AM
Were you hitting go mode earlier on average then?
gamercal - Today at 4:24 AM
man, rerading through all that bs I wanted to come in here with Guzma's classic "Y'all are stupid!" line... but tbh I can't even bring myself to do that unironically >_<
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:24 AM
Overall I feel the average is still roughly the same, but more odds on shorter/longer seeds than usual
ChristosOwen - Today at 4:24 AM
the v18 logic strongly biased against early game having more than 1 progressive item. the v19 logic will have more of a bell curve, some seeds will have a moderate amount of items early game, some seeds will be completely dispersed with things ending up in multiple dungeons
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:25 AM
So averages about the same go mode time with more variance?
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:25 AM
Yeah that's how I feel about it
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:25 AM
Maybe some seeds where you really do have go mode as soon as you see the map in DW
Whereas others you have multiple required items in TRock
And even enter GTower unprepared
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:26 AM
the 2 seeds ive run were both sub 2. so im happy
tho i found it strange that i had all 3 medallions within the first 15-20
minutes
in both
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:26 AM
I do end up with barely MS/tempered in the seeds
and lower HP
so more relying on safeties
gamercal - Today at 4:27 AM
yeah, I'm in no position whatsoever to "judge" the new logic (who even is other than Chris and VT?), but I kinda crushed the weekly yesterday despite Mirror being TR Big Chest (Mirrorless seed!) so eh?
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:27 AM
It does require more gambling
instead of predicting the logic
imo
gamercal - Today at 4:28 AM
and I did literally nothing different
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:28 AM
How do you define gambling?
gamercal - Today at 4:28 AM
hadn't even played since I was eliminated from the tourney either so I definitely wasn't practised
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:28 AM
To me gambling is "going to an area you cannot complete hoping the tools you need are there"
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:28 AM
going to dungeons that you can't finish, not checking aginah/ice cave early
those are what I consider gambles
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:28 AM
Doing Turtle Rock early is not necessarily a gamble if you can finish Turtle Rock; it's just a choice of where to look
Going into Turtle Rock without Ice Rod is a gamble
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:29 AM
yeah and both you and I had to go straight from commentating to running the weekly
gamercal - Today at 4:29 AM
yeah!
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:29 AM
i shoulda checked hookshot cave
gamercal - Today at 4:29 AM
I wasn't even gonna play until you were like "So hey about that Weekly"
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:29 AM
There are probably several ways to define gamble
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:29 AM
generally, high chest locations are now much more worth it to check
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:29 AM
It could be argued that making any play that isn't the play with the highest expected value is a gamble
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:30 AM
i didnt check any dark world death mountain
i blame that sub 1 hour Go Mode
Mikan - Today at 4:30 AM
hookshot cave was amazing
emma - Today at 4:30 AM
If the new logic was going to be used for the next round, wouldn't it have made sense to hold off on the release so everyone is at the same advantage? Because right now, the ones who have an advantage are the ones who have time to practice. Like sorry if you have a job or kids and don't have the time but you're SOL ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:30 AM
I've long been of the view that if you're sure you're in go mode and trust in your skills just go
gamercal - Today at 4:30 AM
see, I don't have any sympathy for those who neglected DW DM
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:30 AM
Checking extra chests for helpful but not required items?
Just as like you're finding the seed's arrow capacity
gamercal - Today at 4:31 AM
cause that was a location you should be holding fairly high in v18 too
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:31 AM
I mean, there's still progression logic
ChristosOwen - Today at 4:31 AM
I do get that emma, and that's fair about progressive items. But for the item fill logic, literally there is nothing to practice or learn. The only thing now is the previously biased locations (zora, pyramid etc) are no longer biased
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:31 AM
i gambled in finding a sword in gtower
didnt pay off
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:31 AM
so of course there will be progression barred behind stuff, but it's just less likely so
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:31 AM
and went mastersword silverless
gamercal - Today at 4:31 AM
I have specifically practiced that like, once
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:32 AM
didnt die to any bosses too, not even vitty
gamercal - Today at 4:32 AM
cause I had many seeds (as in more than 5) where I had MS only going to GT
emma - Today at 4:32 AM
Also I'm well aware that my opinion means literally nothing here since I'm not part of this. But yeah, I was just mentioning that about the new logic, not bug fixes or biases
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:32 AM
You have less odds of finding better weapon/armor, but that's about it that would really make it "different" in that sense
gamercal - Today at 4:33 AM
so kinda like how Pedestal Lamp forced me to learn Dark Rooms I took that as a sign that I should attempt MS Ganon
ChristosOwen - Today at 4:33 AM
All opinions are welcome. I agree things could have been more smooth, but we are where we are, so just trying to deal with this as best as we can
emma - Today at 4:33 AM
Yeah you guys are doing fine :thumbup::skin-tone-1:
ChristosOwen - Today at 4:34 AM
I really thought this would be a positive change, I didn't realize strict tournament rules meant so much to people. I can understand if some people have ~7 days extra to practice because there's still 1 week left of group stage then that can be seen as unfair. So we can do something about that
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:34 AM
Yeah it's just tough to change stuff in the midst of a tourney in general, there's gonna be opinions
ChristosOwen - Today at 4:34 AM
Bottom line, I thought this would be more fun for the players getting through to single elims, and for the commentators to have new things to talk about, and for the viewers to enjoy
gamercal - Today at 4:34 AM
I mean I'm eliminated at this point so I have no sway at all, but for me the only thing I'm immediately concerned with is gloves as a progressive thing. But that will likely fade with more seeds played, as it's probably not nearly as bad as I think it will be (I was also this way with Silvers in the item pool and not Fat Fairy so yeah)
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:34 AM
im just surprised how serious people are taking what essentially is, as you put it yourself christos, a for fun video game tournemant(edited)
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:35 AM
This got big is all
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:35 AM
SOme people are invested, it's a big tourney
I also started off LTTP by entering this tourney
gamercal - Today at 4:35 AM
I'm just sad that I won't be able to play in the elimination rounds now, cause I'd honestly be excited for this xD
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:35 AM
true, my onyl goal was to get outta pools. everything else is just icing on the cake
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:35 AM
Also you gotta know Willard
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:36 AM
So yeah, I do care about the progression of the tourney (since I still have odds of going through to the brackets)
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:36 AM
Playing for cash in tournaments is kinda motivating
Playing for pride?
That truly drives people
ChristosOwen - Today at 4:36 AM
Play for fun. There's no other reason to play in this video game tournament!
💯1
👌1
❤1
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:36 AM
I'm a very competition based player, so I get motivated ;p
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:36 AM
i mean, if you really think you can beat the top tiers in a bo3/bo5
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:36 AM
You don't have to always win to take pride in trying to play well
You can actually mostly lose and still have that mindset
ChristosOwen - Today at 4:37 AM
Nice mindset
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:37 AM
Not everyone has that mindset ;p
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:37 AM
And they don't have to
But certainly some people do
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:37 AM
if im gonna lose, imma do it in style
gamercal - Today at 4:37 AM
I feel like other than one race with Wild I didn't get to really show my ability in this thing. And even in that match it basically came down to one item being in the worst possible spot for good routing vs speedrun strats, so eh. But you can't have everything~
Amazing Ampharos - Today at 4:37 AM
There are probably many different motivations
WillardJBradley - Today at 4:37 AM
when I lose*
Chrouya [GMT+2] - Today at 4:38 AM
But yeah, it's pretty much the big thing on SpeedGaming right now