The Stupidity of Trump; g model of intelligence

+NotoriousThrong
"When I was running for president--remember, we got 306, 307, they said that we wouldn't do better than 122--they said, 'Oh, this is just Trump, this guy, he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's just a builder, just a businessman, what does he know?' The failing New York Times spread their fake, their fake news--I invented that word, 'fake,' I think it's pretty good--they spread this fake news and said 'Oh, you know, Trump says he is smarter than the generals but he's not.' But the generals, so many generals came up to me and they were saying, 'You know, Trump, you are saying things that we never even thought of before.' So many of them were saying it. Really, everybody was saying it. And then we won the election and we proved the haters wrong. They said we wouldn't win, but I proved them wrong. My uncle worked at MIT, my uncle John. He worked in nuclear. He was a smart, very smart man. Maybe one of the smartest. Anyway, we've got good genes, the best genes. We've got really, really good genes. Better than the rest, really. Believe me. I'm president! Can you believe it? I'm so dumb that I'm president? What are the haters even talking about?"
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@goomba
trump does share 1/4 of the genes of his uncle that worked in the nuclear
to a first approximation
+NaughtyCanid
Trump isn't stupid.  Or at least, wasn't.  He was very good at playing the system.
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+NaughtyCanid
How on earth do you get declared bankrupt something like 5 times and still be able to be a CEO
+KandC
Don't sell him short, NaughtyCanid.   He's stupid.  And a racist.  And a moron.
+NaughtyCanid
And the President of the United States.
+NotoriousThrong
Trump is incredibly stupid.
If you can't tell he is incredibly stupid, then you're probably pretty stupid.
Sorry.
He has never had a single deep thought on any topic since he's announced his candidacy in 2015 July.
+NaughtyCanid
Like I said, he is very good at playing the system.
Ignoring NaughtyCanid!*@*
+NotoriousThrong
NaughtyCanid: I put you on ignore.
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+NotoriousThrong
Reason: Your notion that you don't think he's stupid convinces me that you've got to be enormously stupid.
@goomba
intellectual depth is probably only moderately related to your ability to do the mental manipulations that allow ppl to score high on IQ tests
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@goomba
using intellectual depth as a predictor for IQ seems stupid in that case
+NotoriousThrong
goomba: He can't speak in coherent sentences.
What are we debating.
His IQ is probably 80-95, currently.
He's clearly in mid-stage dementia.
He is literally sunsetting, according to multiple reports.
@goomba
you dont have to speak sentences good to have a decently high performance iq at least
+Noodling
I'd genuinely love to see him sit a controlled IQ test.  I suspect people saying he'd be below 100 are right
+NotoriousThrong
goomba: They're very strongly connected, as you know.
@goomba
nah i would disagree with that
it doesnt agree with what ive seen
+NotoriousThrong
You'd disagree that verbal fluency is strongly correlated with IQ.
The tides come in, the tides go out.
What are you doing
@goomba
i said performance IQ though
not overall IQ
maybe verbal iq has something to do with intellectual depth more than performance IQ does
+KandC
IQ tests are also very racist
+NotoriousThrong
I'm researching 'performance IQ'
goomba: The current leading model of intelligence in humans is the single-factor g model
@goomba
no it isnt
+NotoriousThrong
In this model, verbal ability is the single greatest predictor of g
What is the current leading model of intelligence, then
@goomba
strongest doesnt mean 'strong' though
its still only a pretty moderate predictor
+NotoriousThrong
Wow.
@ strongest doesn't mean strong
What are you doing
@goomba
strength is measured on an absolute and not relative scale
for predictors i would think
+NotoriousThrong
You're really taking time out to distinguish between the superlative and positive forms of an adjective
Strength is measure in terms of correlation coefficients, naturally
goomba: Let's make a pact
Let's assume each of us has basically comprehension of English
basic
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+NotoriousThrong
On the model of hierarchical complexity, correct usage of logical qualifiers is stage 9
* Hedrin is verbose intolerant
+NotoriousThrong
Multivariable, multiperspective systems is stage 12
For example, biopsychosocial model in nursing
+Hedrin
Nursing?
+NotoriousThrong
Let's assume we can both reason at stage 12 of MHC, at least
Hedrin: Nursing is a profession within the health care sector focused on the care of individuals, families, and communities so they may attain, maintain, or recover optimal health and quality of life. Nurses may be differentiated from other health care providers by their approach to patient care, training, and scope of practice.
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+Hedrin
There is an old saying about nurses - if you handed a nurse 3  10-pound solid stainless steel balls, and came back 15 min later, 1 would be broken, 1 would be missing, and 1 would have adhesive tape all over it.
+NotoriousThrong
The existence of the g factor was originally proposed by the English psychologist Charles Spearman in the early years of the 20th century. He observed that children's performance ratings, across seemingly unrelated school subjects, were positively correlated, and reasoned that these correlations reflected the influence of an underlying general mental ability that entered into performance on all kinds of mental tests. Spearman suggested that all mental performance could be conceptualized in terms of a single general ability factor, which he labeled g, and a large number of narrow task-specific ability factors. Today's factor models of intelligence typically represent cognitive abilities as a three-level hierarchy, where there are a large number of narrow factors at the bottom of the hierarchy, a handful of broad, more general factors at the intermediate level, and at the apex a single factor, referred to as the g factor, which represents the variance common to all cognitive tasks.
Hedrin: That is a non sequitur
Debate isn't time for your to aimlessly relive memories that are tangentially related to the topic(s)
+Hedrin
it's indeed a sequitur!
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+NotoriousThrong
The last sentence is support of my claim, goomba
@goomba
so the three level hierarchy is the best model
you could have a single 'g' level and it would be worse than the three level one
+NotoriousThrong
Agreed. My claim was wrong.
The three-level hierarchy model subsumes my presentation of the model
Language abilities most strongly correlate with g
The correlations are very strong
+Hedrin
god actually answered a prayer for m.
+NotoriousThrong
Classics French English Math Pitch Music
+Hedrin
me
@goomba
a lot of people saying incredibly stupid barely coherent sentences but still somehow managing to tie their shoes and become president is hard to fathom without the three level model
+NotoriousThrong
.958 .882 .803 .750 .673 .646
goomba: No, it isn't.
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+NotoriousThrong
American culture is garbage. The average American is very stupid. Humans are easily manipulated by mass media. Russia collude and hacked our election.
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+NotoriousThrong
37% of Americans can't name a single branch of the federal government.
+Hedrin
I was supposed to go on a tour of the Vatican, I really didn't want to but I didn't want to disappoint my wife - so - lo and behold - the guy who was supposed to take us to the vatican never showed up!  My prayers were answered!
+NotoriousThrong
60% of Americans can name at most one branch of the federal government.
You are seriously underestimating how stupid we are as a people.
+SquareCircle
america f yeah
+NotoriousThrong
55% of GOP voters think college is a grave threat to the nation.
@goomba
well americans are just really ignorant
+NotoriousThrong
45% of Americans are young Earth Creationists who think the world is less than 10000 years old
@goomba
but the iq scores are like what about 98ish
+NotoriousThrong
The two strong predictors for voting for Trump were racial and sexist attitudes
(Not economic anxiety -- check the research)
And, as always, citations available
+Hedrin
The problem with Americans isn't so much stupidity as it is the lethal combination of stupidity and capital.
+KandC
Hedrin: and religious fundamentalism
never forget
+NotoriousThrong
Hedrin: The top levels of Americans are some of the most capable, powerful, intelligent people on Earth
The average American is trash
+Hedrin
If you're poor and stupid - you're harmless. If you're intelligent and wealthy, you're harmless. Wealthy and stupid? Well - that's a problem.
@goomba
i think even a person with an iq of 85 could name one branch of the federal government if they applied themselves to the problem
+NotoriousThrong
goomba: Let us not lose track of the primary topic
The primary topic is that Donald Trump is immensely stupid
+Hedrin
TonySnark - LTNS
+NotoriousThrong
We know that he is immensely stupid because of his horrific language ability
We know that language ability correlates extremely strongly with g
We know that him getting elected is well-explained through other factors and is not a bearing on his IQ
@goomba
he does lack intellectual depth, i dont think i would argue against that
+NotoriousThrong
He. Cannot. Speak. In. Complete. Sentences.
+Hedrin
I want to invent a Trump Stock for guns - every time you pull the trigger instead of bullets you hear Trump quotes.
+NotoriousThrong
He overuses generic adjectives and nouns as fillers because he has moderate dementia
He contradicts himself from one sentence to the next
He cannot listen to the answers people give and them integrate those answers into his thoughts
I can provide multiple examples of every point
Do you recall his interview in which he claimed he invented the phrase 'priming the pump'?
He literally goes like this
@goomba
does having an average verbal IQ approximate moderate dementia but no one ever noticed before
+NotoriousThrong
goomba: Have you ever heard of 'priming the pump'?
@goomba
i think thats possible
+NotoriousThrong
<goomba> Yep.
goomba: Interesting. I invented that phrase last week.
<goomba> Really? I've heard of it before. Years ago.
goomba: Really? Interesting. I invented it last week.
This goes on four FOUR ROUNDS
+Hedrin
Trump claimed he invented "fake news"
+NotoriousThrong
The guy's brain is in a terrible, terrible shape
He is literally sunsetting in the Oval Office
He can't control any of his impulses
He has perhaps the single most famous case of NPD of all time
(Citations available)
@goomba
lets elect younger people next time please
+KandC
just like Reagan
+NotoriousThrong
Yes, he is shocking, offensively, historically stupid
And the reason many voters thinks he "tells it like it is" is because they, too, are shockingly, offensively, historically stupid
+Hedrin
One of the funniest bits of last weekend's Trump fallout was Linsey Graham complementing Trump's golf game.
+NotoriousThrong
goomba: If a 6-year old behaved the way he did, it'd cause you to raise an eyebrow
<Dad> I invented ice cream. Just an hour ago.
<You> But I have some right here. I bought it yesterday.
<Dad> I invented ice cream.
FOUR FUCKING ROUNDS OF THIS
Do you want the transcript
+Hedrin
He claims Trump shot a 73 - which is like - impossible.
+NotoriousThrong
Trump is very useful.
It lets you learn about the minds of others very rapidly
For example, every human who thinks Donald Trump isn't stupid is announcing they're very, very stupid
And that's useful
Trump talks like AllahuAardvark
+Hedrin
Apparently Trump just constantly cheats at golf while is lickspittles praise his game.
+NotoriousThrong
He would easily be one of the dumbest people in this room
He would be much, much, much dumber than brad70, famous draft dodger
If you can believe that
:D
Look up Streisand Effect, brad70
This is why you should ignore people, and not ban them
The average chatter in this room is, on a daily basis, shitting in their own mouth and then grinning as they exclaim, 'Checkmate, librul!'
And Trump is dumber than that
Based off WAIS-R, vocabulary has the highest correlation with g
At 0.83
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+NotoriousThrong
Similarities, 0.80
Information, 0.80
Comprehension, 0.75
Yes, Trump's IQ is probably 80-95
Vocabulary, Similarities, Information, Comprehension, Picture arrangement, Block design, Arithmetic, Picture completion, Digit span, Object assembly, and Digit symbol.
That is the ordering by correlation
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+NotoriousThrong
It looks like the 'performance IQ' subtests are the least predictive
The general cognitive task, from machine learning, is putting a hypersurface through high dimensional space
I believe every learning task is equivalent to that formation
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+NotoriousThrong
Language appears to be cognitively related to rapidly putting a hypersurface through human social experiences, history, relationships, internal perceptions
That's my understanding of why language correlates so strongly to g
+Hedrin
Language is a virus.
+NotoriousThrong
Also, according to Chomksy, language didn't evolve to facilitate relationships, but to organize internal thoughts, with the social benefits coming later
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+NotoriousThrong
Hedrin: That is probably not that meaningful
People overuse the word virus to the point of it losing much descriptive power
A classic example is when Agent Smith says humans are a virus
I think every organism on Earth wants to cover the surface with its replicas
They just don't have the power to do so in the way humans have shown
+CharmlessMan
yeh but they don't fuck it up like we do
+NotoriousThrong
Because we're powerful
+Hedrin
http://www.languageisavirus.com/index.php#.Wd0t2ltSzIU
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+NotoriousThrong
All agents that have evolved in evolutionary history are seeking to maximize their own gain
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+NotoriousThrong
Though, that does include cooperation, of course
Also, humans are the first species to be aware of the game theoric consequences of the evolution that built them
And we have created worldviews to conquer game theory
+CharmlessMan
well making the planet uninhabitable is hardly going to help anyone
+NotoriousThrong
Theism is a subconsious attempt at that
+CharmlessMan
nobody cares about theism
+NotoriousThrong
Deontology is an explicit, non-mathematical attempt
+CharmlessMan
except theists
+NotoriousThrong
Acausal trade theory is a mathematical formulation
+CharmlessMan
and they are idiots cos everyone knows there's more than one god
+NotoriousThrong
CharmlessMan: I am an atheist. I care about theism.
+CharmlessMan
i mean how many did the romans have?
+NotoriousThrong
CharmlessMan: You're analyzing theism from the classic frame of theism
I recommend you analyze it from the frame of a cognitive-centric worldview
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+CharmlessMan
or even better, perhaps i shouldn't waste my time
+NotoriousThrong
That is, theism is a property of the human mind, not a legitimate description of the non-mind universe
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+CharmlessMan
a property of the brainwashed human mind?
+NotoriousThrong
You don't need to refute theism -- it's bene known to be false since ~1850.
CharmlessMan: You seem stuck.
+CharmlessMan
what happened in 1850 to sway the consensus
+NotoriousThrong
You seem like you need emotional resistance.
And I'm not giving you any.
CharmlessMan: General development of science, with theory of evolution in 1859
+CharmlessMan
that's awfully restrained of you :)
+NotoriousThrong
Also, theism hasn't been used as a legitimate explanatory framework in science since at least that time
CharmlessMan: I have nothing to restrain
+CharmlessMan
legitimate in what way?
you're very serious aren't you
+NotoriousThrong
CharmlessMan: Believed by the researching scientist to be a competitive hypothesis for observed phenomena
+CharmlessMan
it's okay i know who you're talking to
you don't need to keep saying my name :)
+NotoriousThrong
I see.
+CharmlessMan
anyway that's not my name
but what if the researching scientist is a loony
is it still legit then?
+NotoriousThrong
Hmm.
Your question is a signal to me that further conversation with yo might not be productive for me.
+CharmlessMan
i mean all sorts of wackos call themselves scientists don't 'they
Ignoring CharmlessMan!*@*
+NotoriousThrong
I ended my conversation with you at this time, CharmlessMan.
Reason: Among other signals, "loony" and "wacko"
These are words of ignorance about the motivations and goals of other people, i.e. underdeveloped theory of mind
It correlates with a lack of introspection and observational powers
And I generally don't feel intellectually sated when engaging people with such orientations
Sharing that may have violated Buddhist ethics
It's true, but I didn't think about the timing of it