Fascism, Proud Boys, SA, SS

acquafred
triangulating, dwanye
20:47 Monfd
dwanye practices whataboutism to defend the whataboutism of Gavin McInnes.
Monfd
Gavin McInnes is the guy who founded and then abandoned the Proud Boys.
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acquafred
sometimes i feel as if english itself is passing me by
acquafred
kids nowadays, etc
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acquafred
ja, Ana_Ng, i'm just a pawn
Qlyde
Maybe we can put a mono rail on top of the wall...
Monfd
The Proud Boys is that one group that dwanye finds attractive, while nothing it's qualitatively different than the Schutzstaffel.
Monfd
https://pastebin.com/PDapv3HA
Monfd
There's a copy of dwanye being profoundly dishonest.
Monfd
dwanye also thinks the Mayan Jaguar God is quite possibly real.
Monfd
He also thinks there is a cabal of scientists in Australia that are manipulating thermometers across the Australian landscape as part of a larger global conspiracy to manufacture climate change.
acquafred
if you think you have it all figured out, you're wrong
Monfd
The Schutzstaffel (SS; also stylized as Sig runes thin.png with Armanen runes; German pronunciation: [ˈʃʊtsˌʃtafl̩] (About this soundlisten); literally "Protection Squadron") was a major paramilitary organization under Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party (NSDAP) in Nazi Germany, and later throughout German-occupied Europe during World War II. It began with a small guard unit known as the Saal-Schutz ("Hall Security")
Monfd
made up of NSDAP volunteers to provide security for party meetings in Munich. In 1925 Heinrich Himmler joined the unit, which had by then been reformed and given its final name. Under his direction (1929–45) it grew from a small paramilitary formation to one of the most powerful organizations in Nazi Germany. From 1929 until the regime's collapse in 1945, the SS was the foremost agency of security, surveillance, and
Monfd
terror within Germany and German-occupied Europe.
Monfd
That's totally different than what the Proud Boys are aiming for.
Monfd
They just want to be a paramilitary group to fight the paramilitary groups of rival factions, notably anti-fascist groups, while defending the interests of fascist GOP members.
Monfd
Sure, Gavin McInnes took a katana to the GOP headquarters in Manhattan and re-enacted the murder of Japanes socialist leader Asanuma who was assassinated by a right-wing nationalist with a katana.
Monfd
Sure.
acquafred
fa'-scist, n. Someone who is winning an argument with a leftist.
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Monfd
acquafred: You're really going to throw out all of your integrity to defend fascism?
20:52 Monfd
A bold choice.
acquafred
i sense cognitive dissonance
Monfd
"sometimes i feel as if english itself is passing me by" - acquafred
acquafred
because your statement is a ridiculous caricature
acquafred
and not at all what i said
Monfd
Which part.
acquafred
you invented something, and hallucinated that i said it
Monfd
Which thing did I invent.
acquafred
that i am throwing out my integrity or defending fascism
acquafred
you know - the whole of your question
Monfd
Your made up a fake definition.
acquafred
yes, i did, for irony's sake
Monfd
What was your motivation for your fake definition, then?
acquafred
see above
Monfd
But you didn't want to do it to defend fascism.
acquafred
'fascism' is a moving target these days and often means little more than the fake definition i gave
Monfd
You just wanted to push back against my thread.
Monfd
Fascism has an extremely straightforward definition, naturally.
acquafred
i wanted to say what i just did, but in shorter terms and with a dash of humor
Monfd
I can give you a powerful definition immediately.
acquafred
i wonder who would agree with your definition
Monfd
Fascism: The joining of corporate with nationalist elements in a state that features extreme militarism and is lead by a charismatic, male leader.
acquafred
what are corporate elements? what are nationalist elements?
Monfd
acquafred: In the latter days of the Weimar Republic, different factions were vying for power in an increasingly lawless state.
acquafred
the word 'elements' there means little to me
Monfd
The ascendant Nazi party -- like all the serious contenders -- had paramilitary forces to defend themselves from the attacks of other groups and to attack those rival groups.
acquafred
the italians were the first fascists
Monfd
The two paramilitary groups for the Nazi Party was the Sturmabteilung and Schutzstaffel.
acquafred
fascisti, in fact
Qlyde
What about the Kaiser?
Monfd
The highest profile, paramilitary group for the GOP that is attempting to act in this role is the Proud Boys.
Monfd
There are more militarized groups, but they tend to be less high profile and don't take pictures with members of the GOP.
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acquafred
but these days some people will call you fascist because what you say gives them a funny feeling in your tummy
Monfd
acquafred: Let us not allow our conversation worry about what others who aren't present are saying.
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acquafred
...their tummy..
Monfd
acquafred: What are the corporate elements?
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Monfd
acquafred: The US has been an oligarchy since at least the late 1980s.
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Monfd
Corporate interests are overrepresented in our government through the leverage of lobbying and regulatory capture.
acquafred
it was the diffuse definition of fascism among people in general that i was pointing out
Monfd
This has nothing to do with Trump.
Monfd
acquafred: I gave you a high-quality definition.
acquafred
not yours specifically, not mine specifically
Monfd
Let's work with that.
acquafred
i don't consider it to be of high quality
Monfd
The nationalist elements in Trump's fascism are himself and the GOP which has evolved to mirror him.
acquafred
and it has nothing to do with the point of what i said
Monfd
"I'm a nationalist" - Donald J. Trump about two months ago
acquafred
you appear to want to speak from a soapbox
Monfd
You asked two questions. I answered your two questions.
acquafred
i might be a nationalist too, depending on how you define it
acquafred
i dunno
Monfd
Simultaneously, I encouraged you to stop worrying about the stupid things people who aren't present said on this topic.
Monfd
acquafred: That's not relevant to the discussion.
acquafred
none of what you are saying is relevant to what i said
Monfd
The current thesis is my definition of fascism.
acquafred
so, you know
Monfd
It contained no normative evaluation, you'll recall.
acquafred
your current thesis is, i'm sure
acquafred
i'm talking about what i'm talking about
Monfd
Relevance?
acquafred
to what?
Monfd
I'm sure you're lots of things.
acquafred
i am!
Monfd
Turning far-reaching issues into your personal preferences is not a sophisticated behavior.
acquafred
lots of titles and names and adjectives and roles can be assigned to me
Monfd
None of which are relevant to a good working definition of fascism.
acquafred
i don't care about what you think is sophisticated behavior, or whether you prefer it to unsophisticated behavior
Monfd
acquafred: So, to reiterate, I have made a strong case the Proud Boys share strong historical similarities to the SA and SS.
acquafred
you think you have, yes
acquafred
we're both clear on that
Monfd
And you responded by reminding us what some stupid people say about fascism.
Monfd
But you totally didn't do it to defend fascism.
acquafred
no need to re-reiterate your stance on your stance
Monfd
Or to sacrifice your intellectual integrity.
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Monfd
acquafred: My claims stand unless they're refuted.
acquafred
nope, i didn't do it for either reason - i did it for the reason i actually gave
Monfd
This is the foundational axiom of the adversarial approach.
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Monfd
You did it because you're dealing with frustrations you experienced when people who aren't present and who might be dumb misused fascism.
acquafred
no, not frustrations
Monfd
And so you brought those unresolved feelings into a discussion with me, who's obviously extremely well-versed in this space.
Monfd
Do you see how that is not a good idea.
acquafred
you're failing miserably to read my mind, because you are human
Monfd
I'm summarizing your posts.
Monfd
So, let's return to the non-personal.
acquafred
no, you're pretending to know my motivations for them
acquafred
and failing
Monfd
The Proud Boys are a SS-like organization.
Monfd
And dwanye has previously expressed his admiration for them.
Monfd
And I'm holding him accountable for that.
acquafred
well, good luck with that, then
Monfd
Noting it increases the posterior on his having supported Nazis in 1920s and 1930s.
Monfd
A lot of people liked the power of the Nazis.
acquafred
i'm sure you'll change his mind and he will mend his ways because you are 'obviously extremely well versed'
Monfd
It's fun. It's exciting. They can walk down the street and have nobody mess with them.
acquafred
a string of adverbs like that makes for powerful credentials :)
Monfd
acquafred: That's irrelevant.
acquafred
to what?
Monfd
My intentionality, which you're guessing.
Monfd
Wrongly.
acquafred
to the conversation that you're trying to have?
Monfd
Correct.
acquafred
because i'm not in it
Monfd
acquafred: I decided to put you on ignore.
21:05 anachron has set topic: <Ana_Ng> aggregate those motherfuckers
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Monfd
Reason: The pattern of you failing to discuss issues of large scope while worrying about intentionality and worrying about adverbs is violative of best conversational practices.
Monfd
The intentionality is to simply hold dwanye accountable for his past posts because truth matters.
Monfd
That's it.
Monfd
The goal is not to change anything in dwanye.
Monfd
People like dwanye who get caught up in the moment of the Proud Boys are not long-term thinkers with profound viewpoints.
Monfd
If they were evidence-based thinkers they would have not gotten caught up in the Proud Boys hysteria in the first place.
Monfd
The goal is merely to hold them accountable for their foolishness, and to give others an opportunity to make more informed opinions.
Monfd
This practice has a 2500 year history in the West.
Monfd
People who are evidence-based thinkers see that in the dream case, the Proud Boys will become the SS -- a devastatingly powerful group that will annihilate everybody in the USA who gets in their way.
Monfd
They will be immensely proud. Then, you'll find yourself, as a member of the SS, subordinate to other men higher in the hierarchy.
Monfd
Some of them will abuse you or take the women that you like. You'll find yourself in another hierarchy that you might not like very much but which you cannot escape.
Monfd
Some of the same patterns in life you dislike that pushed you to join the Proud Boys or SS will find themselves back in your lifetime.
Monfd
Perhaps you'll start annexing other countries. Mexicans will never talk shit on you again.
Monfd
Eventually, the world unites against you and defeats you in pitched combat and invades your homeland.
Monfd
Your home town and all the centers of American culture are destroyed as your country becomes occupied by your former arch-enemies.
Monfd
Some of you get put on trial and are executed. Some of you flee to far off lands.
Monfd
This is the dream case of the Proud Boys.
Monfd
And getting caught up in their hysteria is a sign of a weak constitution indeed.
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21:11 anachron has set topic: If there's a doctor in the house, please prescribe Monfd some meds.
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Monfd
More likely, they'll remain a semi-terrorist group who recurringly finds its members arrested and put in prison while being condemned by the primary groups in your home.
Monfd
You'll spend a lifetime feeling more isolate than you were before you joined, your only brothers a group of angry, fearful white men who know the *real problems* facing your homeland.
Monfd
But, sure, this one time you encountered this leftist person who misused fascism.
Monfd
Let's focus on that.
Monfd
Oh, and don't get you started on the adverbs.
Monfd
You have a lot of big ideas on the correct amount and placement of adverbs in argumentation working to decrease the likelihood of fascism successfully rising.
Monfd
Thank you.