[16:37] @Disaster Area: at least with that speed though then it'd be a really improved aero answer
[16:37] @Disaster Area: which is always welcomed
[16:37] Enigami: I think something that could work is making Low Kick or some other Fighting-type move a low power paralyzing attack, like Nuzzle.
[16:38] Enigami: That way Primeape and Machamp atleast can support teams with paralysis
[16:38] @Disaster Area: that would be weird but if you can find a sensible specific instance for it then I guess that would work
[16:38] @Disaster Area: both machamp and primeape can use body slam
[16:38] Enigami: 30% chance
[16:38] Enigami: And non-STAB
[16:38] @Disaster Area: yea still,,,
[16:38] @Disaster Area: I think w/ all of these mons there's
[16:39] @Disaster Area: reasons to use them and excuses not to
[16:39] Enigami: To me, it's either semi-weak para move or remove.
[16:39] @Disaster Area: I think we just need a wider playerbase to really get a good sense
[16:39] @Disaster Area: e.g. I didn't think golbat was anything meaningful for ages and it was only yesterday that I came around to it enough to make a team with it
[16:39] Enigami: The problem is typing. Primeape and Machamp need an actual niche, otherwise Pokemon with actually good typings run right over them.
[16:39] @Disaster Area: but someone else might have understood it before I would
[16:39] @Disaster Area: nah their typing is ok
[16:40] @Disaster Area: fighting type --> rock resist, machamp also has power, primeape also has speed + coverage
[16:40] @Disaster Area: probably would appreciate a bit more speed + coverage options [primeape] and machamp wouldn't mind a general stat improvement ... maybe increased attack ?
[16:41] Enigami: I could see Primeape working if it had over 130 speed since that'd make it a more reliable Aero check
[16:41] @Disaster Area: slow but hard hitter
[16:41] @Disaster Area: would be a great niche for machamp to fill even if its a fairly unimportant one
[16:41] Enigami: Still think Machamp would work better with some kind of paralyzing move
[16:41] @Disaster Area: but yea I think 135 speed primeape maybe with one or two random coverage options added [tri attack?]
[16:42] @Disaster Area: would be decently usable
[16:42] Enigami: Or should Ape maybe be 130 and Aero brought down to like 125 or something? Was there any other Pokemon with that speed?
[16:42] @Disaster Area: and maybe increase machamp's attack a bit
[16:42] @Disaster Area: I think that its suuuuuper rare for anything to be nerfed in violet
[16:42] @Disaster Area: the overall rule is buff not nerf
[16:43] @Disaster Area: in fact yea nothing in violet is nerfed
[16:43] @Disaster Area: I thought there was like 1 exception but I just double checked and there's not even 1
[16:43] @Disaster Area: so aero's speed is staying as is but primeape could definitely be buffed
[16:44] Enigami: That's fine, I was just thinking about slowing down Aero less as a nerf and more to avoid going to crazy speed levels. Ape still works with 135
[16:44] @Disaster Area: i mean aero and electrode are meant to be crazy fast no reason we cant add a couple of mons to having that sort of a niche too
[16:45] Enigami: As for the Champ, maybe dial back the other buffs and instead give it like Ramparos attack power or something?
[16:45] Enigami: *Rampardos
[16:45] @Disaster Area: yea that's an interesting idea altho I feel like that might be going a little too far but
[16:45] @Disaster Area: i could see 140 or 150
[16:46] Enigami: I think 140 would be too little
[16:46] @Disaster Area: 145-150 then
[16:47] @Disaster Area: remember in terms of move buffs submission / karate chop / rock slide are all improved for it
[16:47] Enigami: Oh, right. I was thinking of vanilla Champ.
[16:47] Enigami: Maybe 145? +15 Attack seems like it'd be good.
[16:47] @Disaster Area: yeah I support that
[16:48] @Disaster Area: and w/ pinsir I think the thing is that like... the one issue that it had in 1U is still the same issue it has now
[16:48] @Disaster Area: namely: gengar
[16:49] @Disaster Area: 1U pinsir + EQ is probably stronger than violet version current pinsir
[16:49] @Disaster Area: with that high crit rate vice grip and bug type bind and buffed submission
[16:49] @Disaster Area: 40 BP 8 PP bind that is
[16:50] @Disaster Area: or violet buffs without the type chart changes would also make it really strong
[16:50] @Disaster Area: a set of vice grip / sd / submission / hyper beam
[16:50] @Disaster Area: would be awesome
[16:50] @Disaster Area: if it was old rby type chart
[16:50] @Disaster Area: vice grip to hit and run, sd + submission + hyper beam to sweep
[16:51] Ch01W0n5h1n: guess I´ll return soon. kinda started to miss those tours lol
[16:51] @Disaster Area: lol :p
[16:51] @Disaster Area: i think if pinsir got EQ in violet then SD + EQ + HB + VG would be really solid on it as an SDing wallbreaker kinda like zard, can also hit and run, but it does it w/ different defensive / offensive typing to zard, lower speed and bulk but higher power
[16:53] @Disaster Area: but yea for now it gets fucked over hard by gengar which is its #1 issue, and then even if it got EQ it still has plenty of great checks, like zapdos, fire-types [particularly moltres], pidgeot, aerodactyl, fire blast nidoqueen [could be a thing], golbat,
[16:53] Enigami: Yeah, I think EQ is the only thing it could possibly get. Tried looking for other things and couldn't find anything that'd fit.
[16:53] @Disaster Area: gyarados too
[16:54] Enigami: Muk I'd like to see with Transform first (Kristoph was gonna do that right?) to see if that works out. Mega Ditto would be fun to play with.
[16:55] @Disaster Area: i'd never heard of that
[16:55] @Disaster Area: idea
[16:55] @Disaster Area: lol
[16:55] @Disaster Area: its funny
[16:55] @Disaster Area: honestly muk could be kept as is esp if we did all those changes. let the meta develop more see what the meta looks like;
[16:56] @Disaster Area: it is pretty useless vs gengar teams but in other matchups it has ok coverage + a strong explosion
[16:56] Enigami: But then you have Snorlax which has great coverage + a strong explosion + other good options + no EQ weakness.
[16:56] Enigami: Though Fighting is relevant now
[16:56] @Disaster Area: ???
[16:57] @Disaster Area: what becomes a snorlax w/ great coverage + strong explosion + other eq options + no eq weakness
[16:57] Enigami: I said the first thing, then remembered Fighting is relevant
[16:57] Enigami: No, I mean Snorlax is generally a better Muk
[16:57] @Disaster Area: oh
[16:57] @Disaster Area: muk has a bit more speed tho
[16:58] @Disaster Area: 145/105/85/75/50
[16:58] @Disaster Area: !data snorlax
[16:58] @Disaster Area: theyre pretty comparable tbh
[16:58] @Disaster Area: ur right
[16:58] @Disaster Area: yea snorlax does kinda outclass altho
[16:58] @Disaster Area: muk also has disable actually
[16:58] Enigami: I guess Muk could kinda work as a sort-of Lax when you also need a Fighting-resist
[16:58] @Disaster Area: altho frankly that just means 4mss
[16:59] Enigami: Transform actually would combo pretty well with Disable, since you sorta have 8 available moves.
[16:59] @Disaster Area: yea the fighting resist is not rly that good when its so slow as well as weak to eq and psychic and stuff
[17:00] @Disaster Area: #freeMimicDisableTransformExplosionMuk
[17:00] @Disaster Area: xD
[17:00] @Disaster Area: honestly tho with disable that does give it some interesting possibilities
[17:00] @Disaster Area: disable is one of those moves actually where like
[17:00] Enigami: Dunno about Mimic, but Disable / Transform / Explosion / some other attack (Sludge?) I'd love to mess with
[17:00] @Disaster Area: it'll be more useful probably once the meta develops
[17:00] @Disaster Area: when i said mimic i was fucking around
[17:00] @Disaster Area: and it gets acid
[17:01] @Disaster Area: which is like 80 bp + 50% to drop def or smth
[17:01] Enigami: 70BP, but yeah. It's been a while since I played and I don't remember half the changes. :P
[17:02] @Disaster Area: then imo, make some more teams (to help u remember all the changes) and then battle me a few times
[17:02] @Disaster Area: I have 8 teams in need of testing alrdy
[17:02] Enigami: Eh... I'm more just theorymonning. I'm not terribly interested in playing Violet right now.
[17:03] @Disaster Area: :x
[17:05] @Disaster Area: TheDarkCyborg u should make some teams too imo :p
[17:16] TheDarkCyborg: I still don't know how the meta works on VV
[17:17] TheDarkCyborg: all the 79 FE Pkm are viable?
[17:25] @Disaster Area: nope
[17:25] @Disaster Area: just the ones listed in the guide in the roomintro
[17:25] @Disaster Area: !roomintro
[17:25] @Disaster Area: click Violet Guide, it lists what's legal and all the changes
[17:25] @Disaster Area: there's also sample sets for everything which is usable for reference
[17:26] @Disaster Area: also there's this http://www.pokemonperfect.com/forums/index.php?threads/violet-version-viability-rankings.3756/ to help you teambuild and give you a rough idea of what mons are more or less effective / important
[17:28] TheDarkCyborg: so, there are 42 usable Pkm in VV?
[17:29] TheDarkCyborg: Blastoise, Hitmonlee are not in that list
[17:29] TheDarkCyborg: so they cannot be used, right?
[17:29] @Disaster Area: yup.
[17:29] @Disaster Area: (as you saw earlier, KristophV and I are having a disconnected conversation over whether we should have blastoise included or not)
[17:31] TheDarkCyborg: it'd be cool, as a meta of 79 usable gen 1 pokémons allows more teams
[17:31] @Disaster Area: the idea is that 1) buff not nerf 2) limited redundancy [both makes it easier to make everything which is included viable + means there is less burden on the memory]
[17:32] TheDarkCyborg: on fact, sometimes buff means a nerf
[17:32] @Disaster Area: also you should be able to use a good 1U / OU team in Violet and be fairly comfortable vs the majority of the meta so u don't nessecarily need to build something new to start getting into it
[17:32] TheDarkCyborg: i.e in VV, Ice being nve against Fire was a nerf
[17:32] TheDarkCyborg: and a buff on Fire-types
[17:32] @Disaster Area: thats a mechanical change not a specific pokemon nerf
[17:33] TheDarkCyborg: yes, but indirectly nerfed Articuno
[17:33] TheDarkCyborg: since it would be SE against the S rank Moltres
[17:33] TheDarkCyborg: but with that change, it isn't
[17:34] TheDarkCyborg: on fact, it is almost impossible to make balances without nerfing
[17:34] TheDarkCyborg: but whatever, the VV meta is interesting
[17:35] @Disaster Area: yea I was just saying what the general guiding principles of the mod are. Obviously there's specifics to learn
[17:36] TheDarkCyborg: Butterfree i strong in VV, and superb on RBY+ hahaha
[17:36] TheDarkCyborg: is*
[17:36] @Disaster Area: lol
[17:36] @Disaster Area: yea in VV it was nice how like ok we buffed
[17:36] @Disaster Area: the stats overall a bit
[17:36] @Disaster Area: changed the typing
[17:36] @Disaster Area: improved the moves
[17:36] @Disaster Area: and it worked out really nicely
[17:36] TheDarkCyborg: it is a very good lead, it's the fastest sleeper along with gengar
[17:36] @Disaster Area: making it a good viable fairly splashable but definitely not overpowered mon
[17:36] TheDarkCyborg: in RBY+ it is Psychic/Bug
[17:37] TheDarkCyborg: and Aerodactyl is S in both haha
[17:38] @Disaster Area: lol
[17:39] TheDarkCyborg: I'll discuss with Kristoph about nerfing BF's speed on plus
[17:40] TheDarkCyborg: there's no lead that matches it