.:avih:. i don't think anyone can ignore or deny the fact that wm4 is the main (an understatement) driving force for actual progress in mpv. personally i would take real progress with bad PR than great PR without progress, though obviously i would have liked to have both real progress and good PR.
.:CounterPillow:. This isn't really abozt PR anymore but other people actively getting burned out
.:avih:. i use PR as a codename the intersection between mpv development and users
.:LaserEyess:. I would argue that certain actions are not "real progress with bad PR" but rather "steps backwards with bad PR"
.:avih:. i think it is pretty much public relations, just not in the marketing sense
.:TheAMM:. I would argue that the point is not exactly the public relations
.:LaserEyess:. ranting and raving about GNOME being garbage (true) is one thing, but then patching out GNOME support by detecting it and force quitting does absolutely nothing
.:LaserEyess:. and also, yeah, who cares about "public relations"
.:avih:. LaserEyess: i think your point of view should be quite clear by now, and this doesn't help anymore.
.:LaserEyess:. I am not a gnome user, I specifically brought up that issue as something recent that affected mpv's "PR" as well as was explicitly *not* "real progress"
.:LaserEyess:. the xdg thing is a completely separate issue
.:avih:. we're aware of the aspects, yes.
.:TheAMM:. "We"?
.:LaserEyess:. I will also continue to voice my opinion as an mpv user for 6 years and (technically, by 2 commits) a contributor
.:avih:. TheAMM: most people who hang here and care about mpv progress and internals
.:TheAMM:. I get that you're you but it kinda sounded like you were using "we" to dismiss LaserEyess and the problems with the gnomegate and xdggate
.:TheAMM:. Issues don't get solved with "we get it, yes", they need to be talked out
.:Fruit:. I thought the problems were less gnomegate and xdggate and more fuckoffgate
.:TheAMM:. Yes, but they were part of the progress up to this point
.:TheAMM:. I'd expect them to have the same underlying root
.:avih:. TheAMM: not at all. i actually share some of those opinions, but we're well aware of the aspects by now.
.:TheAMM:. So what are you proposing?
.:avih:. unfortunately i don't have anything productive to offer, but personally, if the choice was between taking it as it is (while trying to affect direction, to a degree) or wm4 leaving, i'd take the former.
.:CounterPillow:. I don't think anyone here wants to force him out
.:avih:. true, but these kind of endless frictions could lead to it, and personally if it comes down to this choice, that that would be my preference.
.:gh-mpv:. [mpv] Solarunit opened issue 8172: OSD tends not to update for a short period of time after a pause. -- https://git.io/JTqnv
.:gh-mpv:. [mpv] Dudemanguy opened pull request 8173: wayland: be less strict about when to render -- https://git.io/JTqWT
.:TheAMM:. If this keeps moving without adjusting course or taking no action, I think mpv will crash and burn, people still on the ride included
.:TheAMM:. I don't expect that to happen, because there will obviously be some action taken in the worst-case scenario
.:TheAMM:. I don't want him to leave or be forced to do anything, those are the worst-cases
.:TheAMM:. The ideal naive magical solution is that wm4 takes another break, a vacation from foss to expunge his stress and annoyance at the enduser, and is then all right again
.:TheAMM:. But it is naive and simplistic and based on just wishing for things to go away or clear up like that
.:TheAMM:. Yet still, the ideal clean path
.:TheAMM:. In my understanding wm4 is under stress/anxiety/annoyance, or what you'd want to call it; the vessel is venting from the pressure
.:TheAMM:. The beautiful solution is that this can be dealt with, but from what I've seen, he's not the sort to vent personal issues, and you can't force anyone to
.:gh-mpv:. [mpv] v-fox opened issue 8174: Wrong framerate when fullscreen under Mesa with ACO -- https://git.io/JTqB1
.:TheAMM:. I don't know what to do to help, even with dialogue I don't think I'm equipped for that, and just saying to find a way to constructively deal with the whatever is also a lame ineligible copout
.:TheAMM:. But this sort of thing shouldn't be acceptable, and if there's no line now, there should be one just a bit further
.:TheAMM:. Everyone is flawed, but we oughta all be reasonable adults here, more or less
.:TheAMM:. If someone's situation gets to a point of unreasonable and abrupt and uncontested actions, that's not healthy for anyone or anything
.:TheAMM:. I don't know what options there are between the worst-cases and the idealistic ones, not without dialogue
.:TheAMM:. I can't really come up with anything the "other side" could compromise and give up on to broker peace for both parties, not without dialogue
.:TheAMM:. Not that I've come up with anything here, this is just "this is how things are", since I have no place to compel anyone or make decisions
.:wm4:. god what the fuck
.:wm4:. I'm not under stress or anxiety
.:wm4:. stop "analyzing" me
.:wm4:. it's rude
.:wm4:. fucking assholes
.:wm4:. if you don't like it, fuck off
.:wm4:. just fuck off
.:wm4:. and you're wasting your time, whatever dumb stuff you come up with I probably wouldn't agree with
.:TheAMM:. I feel that something has changed, though
.:TheAMM:. I have high hopes of people, and I know you're not dumb, and you're not uncaring, so I don't understand this recent "unreasonable" fuck-you mood
.:TheAMM:. In my model of the world, there is a reason for that and it's not that you're evil just because
.:TheAMM:. There is some reason you're making breaking changes affecting lots of people without taking a moment or two to consider that and decide not to, or you decide to do so anyway
.:TheAMM:. It may be that you got so fed up that you don't care anymore, fuck it, fuck all of it, which makes most sense to me because even my limited "author" experience has shown me what the slog with users and issues and responses can be
.:TheAMM:. since I don't see a calculating reasonable reason to act this way as opposed to an emotional override
.:TheAMM:. I know it's not nice at all to look at a person and then think about why they did or do what they did or do, but I'm at a loss here and need to vent it, same as you
.:TheAMM:. You can consider it some kind of result of your actions as well, getting analyzed and looked at
.:wm4:. uh I don't care about users, I can just ignore them
.:wm4:. but whatever, asshole
.:LaserEyess:. do you not want help with this project? or is mpv really just something you want to discourage people from using because it's too popular for a "personal project"
.:LaserEyess:. because no one is saying you have to kowtow to users
.:JEEB:. wm4: I will not tell you to do what you have told many people including me to do. But I will also not take more offensive bullshit from you, since quite frankly I think I've taken enough of it and taken enough stress due to it. I have the utmost admiration and respect towards what you have done and created and what a vast pool of knowledge you have, but you cannot just unwind the clock because you alone
.:JEEB:. want it. Not to mention in the manner in which you are attempting to do it. If being alone in your own pool of negativity is what you want, that you shall receive. I took the chance when you did your case for getting back in (after you yourself removed yourself), but at this point neither me or you are in the same position nor state as we were then.
.:wm4:. the only question is why you haven't fucking fucked off yet
.:JEEB:. because if I don't do anything i will just feel even worse due to the time I've already put into this stuff. because I don't want to go back to DirectShow and other crap just because I didn't feel good here.
.:wm4:. I'm sure you'll find a new and better home
.:LaserEyess:. probably because JEEB actually likes mpv and also possibly enjoys working on it?
.:wm4:. oh no some asshole removed me from the mpv org again
.:wm4:. who was it
.:wm4:. yozu know what
.:wm4:. how about fuck all of you
.:JEEB:. ...
.:JEEB:. lol
.:JEEB:. I really hope the best for him
.:der_richter:. this won't end well
.:JEEB:. and sorry for taking the decision to act, but I just didn't see any way to discourse it with him based on the way he did discourse
.:LaserEyess:. der_richter: it didn't start well either
.:JEEB:. asdf, bad English
.:der_richter:. it will end even worse
.:der_richter:. my wee so far was quite fucked up and it's not getting better
.:der_richter:. also i do agree that the whole situation is fucked up
.:der_richter:. and i have no idea how to handle it
.:LaserEyess:. maybe he just actually needs time to cool off, idk
.:JEEB:. I mean, I looked at his communication with others here, on -offtopic and on an unrelated channel on Rizon
.:LaserEyess:. is it me or has it really been just like this past month that he's being on a rage bender?
.:LaserEyess:. like I know he was rough before but it seems to have drastically escalated
.:JEEB:. he definitely during the last 2 months become more and more hostile in his talk
.:Dudemanguy:. I agree, he has definitely been unneccesarily hostile towards everyone
.:der_richter:. it got worse
.:Dudemanguy:. I thought maybe it was just a bad week or something but nothing really changed :/
.:LaserEyess:. same
.:philipl:. *sigh*. Sorry you had to do that JEEB. It was either going to end like this, or with everyone else leaving and forking. So it was going to be wm4 on his own one way or another :-(
.:JEEB:. yea :/
.:sfan5:. although it's probably obvious I will say that I, too, think this was inevitable
.:avih:. pretty fucked up, yeah
.:der_richter:. i am not a fan of what just happened, though i don't have any better suggestions so i am not going to argue.
.:der_richter:. just very sad
.:JEEB:. I don't think anyone involved in this was happy
.:philipl:. No. Despite all the shitiness, i think we'd all rather a world where we could work with wm4 than not.
.:JEEB:. it was a really weird rollercoaster
.:JEEB:. on one hand he'd be OK to talk and all that jazz, and the other side then...
.:Lynne:. I've been running a year old mpv version and tbh I haven't missed any new features nor experienced any breakages
.:Lynne:. but would be nice to move back to upstream if wayland got fixed and I'm confident enough all the new audio code is stable
.:JEEB:. sfan5 apparently made sure PA works, and wm4 cared only about one thing which is ALSA
.:sfan5:. I don't use it myself but I was under the impression that wayland worked and does work
.:JEEB:. yea, while you might not agree with everything Dudemanguy does, he has done great work.
.:JEEB:. I think he re-added some of the "don't render when not visible stuff"
.:JEEB:. back in, since clearly it was stupid
.:JEEB:. to keep doing that (so I expect when he got the spot to do that improvement he did)
.:Dudemanguy:. yeah if you meant the rendering while not visible, it doesn't do it anymore
.:Dudemanguy:. although technically there's a bug (that I have a PR for that should fix it)
.:JEEB:. yea, that I looked only briefly
.:Lynne:. no, I mean make frame callback driven again
.:Dudemanguy:. It's not directly frame callback driven, but it takes the frame callback into account when rendering
.:Lynne:. it must be frame callback driven or else its a hack
.:LaserEyess:. seems to work well for me
.:LaserEyess:. at least direct scanout and presentation time work
.:LaserEyess:. that's all I care about
.:Lynne:. not for people who don't use display resample
.:LaserEyess:. that also works for me  but I use adaptive_sync in sway
.:Lynne:. frame-callback driving works so much better because its how wayland is meant to be used
.:Lynne:. that's orthogonal
.:LaserEyess:. I'm too brainlet to understand why vo.c can't work with the callback
.:Lynne:. it can and did
.:Dudemanguy:. not really
.:Lynne:. yup, it did
.:JEEB:. as a random side note, I think at one point someone here managed to make the wayland people better understand something, which was great :P I wish I remember what it was.
.:Dudemanguy:. I'm not sure what the practical difference is between what is currently in master and what 0.29
.:Dudemanguy:. I understand why from a design point of view you might like 0.29 but it's not relevant to users
.:Lynne:. no it doesn't
.:JEEB:. I think you people need to open your reasonings (pros/cons) a bit better or otherwise it'll just be a juupas/eipäs kind of thing
.:Lynne:. its a gigantic hack and anyone who has worked with wayland can see it
.:Dudemanguy:. so was 0.29
.:Lynne:. and I'm not talking about hypothetical hacks or nonexistant hacks, this is a genuine hack which forces compositors to act in a very specific way
.:JEEB:. who was the person here who tested variable refresh rate on some wayland compositor here?
.:Lynne:. yeah, that's one thing which is going to be pretty broken
.:Lynne:. another thing is the half-refresh-rate thing mutter does (did?)
.:JEEB:. anyways, if I was less tired I'd go check which thing it was that there was a discussion on the wayland side about. Alas, I am.
.:JEEB:. because I remember it having something to do with timing
.:Lynne:. I'm really not interested in arguing with someone who doesn't see the current implementation as a hack, I'm happy with maintaining my fork
.:Lynne:. I do want to make this project better but if my patches won't be accepted I'll unhappily return to it
.:sfan5:. we haven't even seen your patches so that conclusion would be a bit too fast
.:Lynne:. the current maintainer doesn't understand how wayland works and would likely look down on the code as "unnecessary" and "currently works fine for me, like I care about filthy non-display-resample users"
.:Lynne:. linkmauve has more energy to argue
.:Dudemanguy:. why are you assuming that? by all means if your way is better and has feature parity with what's currently there, submit a patch
.:Lynne:. it'll be intrusive, the current design is completely backwards to how its meant to work
.:Lynne:. like, using a hammer's handle as a hammer and using the hammer as a grip-backwards
.:JEEB:. I unblocked CounterPillow and LaserEyess from the org because I think both at this point are relatively sane
.:Lynne:. I just don't get the feeling undoing all (and I really do mean, all) the work that's been done to make it work somewhat this way will be taken nicely
.:LaserEyess:. 14:50 < JEEB> who was the person here who tested variable refresh rate on some wayland compositor here?
.:LaserEyess:. me
.:garoto:. CP was blocked? he was commenting on issues like yesterday
.:LaserEyess:. I can do more testing if/when needed
.:JEEB:. LaserEyess: how well did the current state work with that?
.:Dudemanguy:. Lynne: I mean realistically I'm the one who would make the call and there's no offense taken here
.:Dudemanguy:. could you link your fork at least?
.:JEEB:. Lynne: /41
.:JEEB:. asdf
.:JEEB:. sorry
.:LaserEyess:. JEEB: basically it Just Werks™ when not using display-resample
.:JEEB:. ok
.:LaserEyess:. it uses the lowest possible multiple of the video's framerate
.:Lynne:. https://github.com/cyanreg/mpv its just last year from september's release with various vo_gpu cherry-picks
.:LaserEyess:. however it does have some jitter, and that only works in fullscreen
.:LaserEyess:. I think the cursor had weird behavior too, but that was an implementation detail with sway
.:garoto:. btw, removing wm4 from the org *again* was a dick move, but I can only assume it was a premeditated move
.:LaserEyess:. it was not at all premeditated
.:LaserEyess:. and just scroll up if you want to see peoples thoughts on it, don't assume anything about the motive behind it
.:JEEB:. garoto: we have not removed him before.
.:LaserEyess:. that's how shitty reddit rumors get started
.:garoto:. no, I looked the members a couple days ago and he was not listed
.:JEEB:. uhh
.:JEEB:. he was hidden
.:garoto:. oops, ok then
.:JEEB:. I did not plan on this going like this this morning, even if I planned on discussing the toxicity because I was literally having stress due to having to think if there's another case to yell about soon when something else is hated on
.:JEEB:. then I just ended up bringing it up publicly because I ended up being the one checking who had blocked someone during the night for no real reason
.:JEEB:. and even then I kept on looking at how the discussion went on
.:JEEB:. garoto: also his comment was regarding mia\ accidentally removing his org rights one of the last times he was behaving "nicely". which I ended up commenting about to that person.
.:garoto:. yeah I recall
.:mia\:. (still sorry about that)