Circle of Two are traitors.

It isn’t often that we’re treated to display of callous backstabbing that CO2 so recently perpetrated. Despite the reputation of an EVE full of knives in the dark, most entities that currently exist in 0.0 stick to word and deal with reasonable good faith. This isn’t because of some mistaken idea of e-honor, it’s a matter of the almost Darwinian natural selection of alliances. Traitors have difficulty finding friends, loner alliances tend to get picked off. A worthy enemy garners respect, a traitor, scorn, and a staunch ally is worth their weight in gold.

So it came as some surprise that CO2 opted for a mid-war betrayal mere minutes after our defense of their home soil.

But betrayals are almost never a spur of the moment action. So it was in this case. And unlike even our enemies, diplomatic privilege in communications does not apply to traitors.

No one is shackled in iron chains to the coalition. Members are welcome to leave if they so choose, and we have facilitated exits in the past on good terms. So why did CO2 opt for treachery?

Now, for the rest of the story.

“CO2 are loyal friends.” - Endie, April 2012

Our story begins at the very beginning of April 2012. CO2 approached us for admittance into the coalition. Endie, and some of the other Bat Country guys who were formerly members of CO2, and had strong ties with them, told CO2 that they would make the case to the rest of the coalition to let them in. There was nothing unusual about this at the time and the BAT guys were up-front about their relations and historical ties with CO2 and their leadership. Through their advocacy, as well as the vouch of former Sky Marshal and Blackops leader TheAdj, the coalition decided to take a chance and give CO2 a shot.

When I say, take a chance, what I mean is this--in April of 2012, CO2 had dropped to about 300 people.  As gigx, CO2’s leader said at the time:

[20:21:13] gigX > I forgot the time when I lead more then 100ppl in fleet
[20:21:17] gigX > I miss that time

They were desperate, and we as a coalition were in an empire building phase. We were racking up wins over historic enemies and steadily expanding our resources as a coalition. We figured, why not let them in and see what they’re made of?

What’s the worst that can happen?

Before I move onto the next phase of this story, here are some of the interesting logs from this time, which have a certain element of prophecy to them, though I’ve left out the handful of logs of gigx being thrilled with having 15-20 people in fleet:

Gicer (spy-guy, BAT) summary of TS conversation, April 7th, 2012:

They expressed a ton of interest at doing Black Ops style pvp and they also want to join fleets with the CFC and show up and get involved. I like the way they see this as a chance at more pvp and not a "where do we rat" jew heaven.

They specifically stated that they do not want space at this time because they are small and have not earn't that right in the CFC yet. They also said that while a couple of systems to call home is a goal of theirs at some point, it is not their motivation.

From discussions it seems that inclusion into the CFC will be the weapon to rebuild their alliance and train new people, while they do that they join fleets and intergrate into the CFC.

I went over most of the rules / regs and how we work and they think that this is an amazing offer for them. This is important because Serbians have this immense sense of loyalty.

Sara Rae (GSF Diplomat), August 8, 2012:

(23:54:16) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/c895a32: but a serious question looking at the war. After we are done with this one and got all these moons/sov what are you guys looking at to get out of it?
(23:54:56) gigX: dunno m8
(23:55:16) gigX: dont know what we can get
(23:55:22) gigX: or what we earned
(23:55:27) gigX: or did we earn
(23:56:29) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/c895a32: what would you like to get?
(23:57:03) gigX: maybe one constalation would be fine
(23:57:09) gigX: close to some camp route
(23:57:41) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/c895a32: and moons?
(23:58:03) gigX: hmm dunno
(23:58:22) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/c895a32: if you could choose between those 2 sov or moons?
(23:58:29) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/c895a32: wich would you prefer?
(23:58:31) gigX: sov
(23:58:43) gigX: for industry guys
(23:58:49) gigX: what we can do with moon
(23:59:03) gigX: moon can be the problem in co2
(23:59:09) gigX: since we have small corp numbers
(23:59:34) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/c895a32: so you wouldn ´t mind getting sov without moons?
(23:59:59) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/c895a32: because moons would something more  ¨pain in the ass ¨
(9-8-2012 0:00:03) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/c895a32: to deal with
(0:00:16) gigX: its hard to defend moons
(0:00:25) gigX: specialy because co2 is eu tz
(0:00:31) gigX: we are low on ppl
(0:00:38) gigX: we need sov to rebuild alliance
(0:00:49) gigX: bring more pvp corps and people
(0:04:13) gigX: Atm all of that is away from CO2


Sara Rae, Post-Tribute spoils discussion where we gave CO2 Tech moons and sov. Gigx notes the dangers of being greedy. October 27, 2012:

(19:13:38) gigX: I already told ppl that I will lock all towers with tech
(19:13:47) gigX: found a lot of greed ppl
(19:14:00) gigX: they dont talk what we need to do
(19:14:03) gigX: just about tech
(19:14:11) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/ef623085: yes to greedy
(19:14:18) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/ef623085: you will need to watch out with that
(19:14:23) gigX: they already calculate
(19:14:37) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/ef623085: how much B per month it would be?
(19:14:49) gigX: yea
(19:14:58) gigX: but they dont talk about that when I`m on ts
(19:15:44) gigX: because they know that I will give moons to goons if they start to be greedy
(19:16:02) gigX: Most of ppl I know in RL
(19:16:09) gigX: we see this game as pixel and fun
(19:16:25) gigX: but some of them see this game tru isk
(19:16:41) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/ef623085: yes they only see the $.$

More spoils discussion, November 5th 2012. Gigx again highlights greed and that some people play for the wrong reasons, money, and the right reasons, friendship and fun.

(22:17:21) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/2e6c5535: http://evemaps.dotla...nt/F-V9QW#const this constellation we were thinking on if you wanted it ofcourse
(22:19:53) gigX: lol this is the best const in vale
(22:20:22) gigX: but co2 still dont deserve that
(22:20:43) gigX: first iwant to show co2 to cfc in full condition
(22:21:09) gigX: and i realy want to start from that trib const
(22:21:35) gigX: If you guys dont mind
(22:21:43) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/2e6c5535: It is up to you
(22:21:46) gigX: We want to stay in tribute
(22:21:57) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/2e6c5535: wich ever you guys prefer
(22:22:04) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/2e6c5535: we dont want to force anything with you guys
(22:22:13) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/2e6c5535: and would like to listen to you
(22:22:22) gigX: that const is good for carebearing
(22:22:23) gigX: in vale
(22:22:36) gigX: I cleared most of carebear from corp and alliance
(22:22:44) gigX: I dont want to make same mistake
(22:24:33) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/2e6c5535: I really like that in you guys
(22:25:07) gigX: tnx m8
(22:25:33) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/2e6c5535: if only every alliance was like you guys
(22:42:46) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/2e6c5535: some guys are just really greedy
(22:43:05) gigX: well that was always problem in eve
(22:43:13) gigX: someone playing for isk
(22:43:23) gigX: someone for fun and friendship

Gigx on Serbian mentality, and why people are wrong to go alone, November 28th, 2012:

(19:17:06) gigx@goonfleet.com: Well I never got chance to shoot on serbians in EVE
(19:17:29) gigx@goonfleet.com: and most of serbians in eve think that they can rule alone
(19:17:32) gigx@goonfleet.com: in small corps
(19:17:55) gigx@goonfleet.com: I dont like to hear "pro pvp players"
(19:18:04) gigx@goonfleet.com: and they think they are pro
(19:18:09) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/c85c4a78: ugh
(19:18:26) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/c85c4a78: I dont like hear that eather
(19:18:30) gigx@goonfleet.com: they are still in time
(19:18:39) gigx@goonfleet.com: when you can go with 10 ppl and kill 30
(19:18:53) gigx@goonfleet.com: without blob or hotdrop

Now, a bit of a breather. I’ve left out a lot of logs, but from the above it should be easy to see why we enjoyed working with CO2 in the early years. They were full of spunk, eager to earn acceptance into the coalition, and valued friendship more than money. They didn’t ask for handouts, they asked for a chance to earn their place. I’ve also left out a lot of the coalition building bits where CD advised CO2 on how to better build and run their alliance. Every step of the way, we helped the plucky guys build their alliance and realize their potential. At this point in the story, CO2 is no longer in danger of collapse, has stabilized, and was now looking to expand from the starting point the coalition had given them--that they’d earned.

Now, back to the logs.

Opening recruitment, the importance of M-O, and the first signs of trouble with TNT. January 14th, 2013.

(21:58:59) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/a8adb8db: how is everything going?
(21:59:32) gigx@goonfleet.com: Well I give job to Da Winci to start looking for new corporations
(21:59:54) gigx@goonfleet.com: Also I told him if he have any questions about something that he can contact and ask you
(22:00:02) gigx@goonfleet.com: Is that ok?
(22:00:26) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/a8adb8db: sure
(22:00:30) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/a8adb8db: he can always talk to me
(22:00:40) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/a8adb8db: maybe Ill talk to him first to break the ice
(22:00:49) gigx@goonfleet.com: http://co2.eve-kill....kll_id=15878426
(22:00:58) gigx@goonfleet.com: PVP is improved in CO2
(22:01:05) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/a8adb8db: nice one
(22:01:32) gigx@goonfleet.com: http://co2.eve-kill....kll_id=15862269
(22:01:58) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/a8adb8db: Nice you have enough pvp nearby with taisy?
(22:02:17) gigx@goonfleet.com: Well we got some trouble with TNT guys
(22:02:27) gigx@goonfleet.com: because they fighting for loot
(22:02:32) gigx@goonfleet.com: but I ignored that
(22:02:48) gigx@goonfleet.com: and we started raping everything around M-O including M-O
(22:03:16) gigx@goonfleet.com: Any fleet who enter in tribute tru m-o
(22:03:22) gigx@goonfleet.com: they need to fight us first

Sara Rae, taking the next step toward integration, January 30th, 2013.

(22:56:44) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f12fbbaa: I talked to da winci abit totday
(22:56:46) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f12fbbaa: today*
(22:58:01) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f12fbbaa: I want to get co2 more intergrated with the cfc
(23:03:11) gigx@goonfleet.com: How do you mean "integrated"
(23:04:01) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f12fbbaa: working more together, seeing you guys more in fleets, you fcing cfc fleets or EG fleets
(23:04:05) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f12fbbaa: that kind of stuff
(23:05:03) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f12fbbaa: some people have the feeling at the moment that CO2 is working more on itself and I wnat to get that image out of the way
(23:05:44) gigx@goonfleet.com: Well they are wrong
(23:06:09) gigx@goonfleet.com: If co2 working for itself then Its fine with me to have 20ppl in my roam
(23:06:34) gigx@goonfleet.com: But I want to show cfc that we can always help with atleast 50-100 ppl in cfc fleets
(23:07:18) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f12fbbaa: co2 should join the next european goonion deployment
(23:07:30) gigx@goonfleet.com: I`m waiting for that

And more diplomatic attempts at integration, Feburary 4th, 2013:

(13:18:54) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/55c78344: we will have a welcome thread in the EG section for co2
(13:18:55) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/55c78344: Dear EG Brothers and Sisters, we are gathered here today to welcome into our hallowed ranks our fine allies: Circle of 2.

Through the good grace of Dear Leader, GigX, Sara Rae and your humble co-conspirator, myself, we would like to officially welcome our venerable Circle of 2 dudes and dudettes to our merry little subforum. While CO2 have been faithful and trusted allies of us for quite a while, we've never been formally introduced and as we are soon to see a large influx of CO2 members into our ranks, it was thought fitting that each squad get to welcome the other in the way they are accustomed.

For EG, this is constant deafening worthless posts. Our most popular threads are those wherein we say nothing but a random word or tell everyone how many trains we've taken on a Wednesday. For CO2, well, I have no idea what you people do. And this is why this thread exists.

This thread will be for CO2 people to introduce themselves and begin to contribute to a great dialogue between the two groups. Hopefully this dialogue will involve much shitposting and mutual crap flinging.

EG are currently in the process of fully deploying to Delve as there are many TEST that deserve death and there are many of us who deserve to kill them. CO2 will be joining us DAAN SAAF and so will need to start looking at our doctrine ships and our deployment details threads.

SO GO MEN AND POST! POST LIKE YOU'VE NEVER POSTED BEFORE! MAKE OUR NEW BUDDIES FEEL WELCOME!

Also, there'll be a prize for the greatest/awfullest post based solely on my whims.

I end now with a quote from Sara Rae, EG hero and CO2 Diplo:

"I would like to welcome CO2 to EG after working for some months with these guys. I would like to say that they are good dudes that would work really good with EG. Have fun and lets kill some test."
(13:19:52) gigx@goonfleet.com: sec I just make coffe
(13:19:59) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/55c78344: sure
(13:21:10) gigx@goonfleet.com: This thread will be for CO2 people to introduce themselves and begin to contribute to a great dialogue between the two groups.
(13:21:13) gigx@goonfleet.com: hehehe
(13:21:24) gigx@goonfleet.com: good luck with that

First rumors of embezzlement, February 19th, 2013. It was here where corporations within CO2 started complaining to us about finances, and started looking to leave. Remember this detail, it’ll be important later.

(9:31:52) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/a67b351c: morning
(9:36:16) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/a67b351c: we will need to talk asap
(14:22:47) gigx@goonfleet.com: you here m8
(14:22:57) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: yes I am
(14:23:46) gigx@goonfleet.com: I see you needed me
(14:23:58) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: yes indeed
(14:24:13) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: we got some strange news from co2 that I wanted to check
(14:24:26) gigx@goonfleet.com: about?
(14:24:52) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: income and directors using tech for themselfs for the most part
(14:25:00) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: and a corp looking to leave co2
(14:25:43) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: so that got me worried
(14:25:56) gigx@goonfleet.com: what corp told you that
(14:26:25) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: which corp do you thinkg it is?
(14:26:28) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: think*
(14:26:45) gigx@goonfleet.com: noone have access to tech exept me
(14:27:03) gigx@goonfleet.com: then we making reactions with other corps
(14:27:19) gigx@goonfleet.com: making nanotransistors an fulleride
(14:27:43) gigx@goonfleet.com: and selling on alliance wallet
(14:27:50) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: would you say the tech is about 25b/month?
(14:28:12) gigx@goonfleet.com: something like that
(14:28:31) gigx@goonfleet.com: and we using ally wallet for bills
(14:28:35) gigx@goonfleet.com: and fuel
(14:28:44) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: ofcourse
(14:28:46) gigx@goonfleet.com: upgrades in ihubs
(14:28:56) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: thats before sov + pos feul and a such
(14:29:00) gigx@goonfleet.com: alliance wallet paying everithing
(14:29:18) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: also srp right?
(14:29:32) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: or you replace hulls?
(14:29:48) gigx@goonfleet.com: srp?
(14:30:01) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: ship replacement programm
(14:30:10) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: sorry for the shorting of it
(14:30:28) gigx@goonfleet.com: We are still not able to make srp
(14:31:26) gigx@goonfleet.com: I`m spending mostly my own isk then alliance isk for ships
(14:32:05) gigx@goonfleet.com: so I`m realy interested who tell that directors using tech for themself
(14:33:12) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: I would like to know first which corp isn ´t really happy your alliance first?
(14:33:28) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/b7d28ea: so you maybe have an idea who ti is?
(14:35:20) gigx@goonfleet.com: well most of corps are not happy
(14:35:27) gigx@goonfleet.com: because I`m raging on them
(14:35:33) gigx@goonfleet.com: they dont come in fleets
(14:35:49) gigx@goonfleet.com: just carebearing

At this point, CO2 started complaining about being poor, and not being able to fund SRP. Aryth and the rest of our finance team started digging into it, and came to the conclusion that CO2 was somehow wasting their money. Sara Rae in the meantime sought other ways to help them, and continued to offer the help and support we could, including that of our expert finance team.

March 4th, 2013:

(14:42:06) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/55ffc3eb: did da winci talk to you about the propalse I gave him about getting more tech if possible?
(14:42:15) gigx@goonfleet.com: nope
(14:42:56) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/55ffc3eb: you guys don ´t have a real SRP(ship replacement program) at the moment right?
(14:43:06) gigx@goonfleet.com: No we dont
(14:43:11) gigx@goonfleet.com: we working mostly with donations
(14:43:21) gigx@goonfleet.com: and bills are payed from tech
(14:43:43) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/55ffc3eb: yep indeed
(14:44:07) gigx@goonfleet.com: Well true is if we put upgrades for jammers
(14:44:19) gigx@goonfleet.com: then it will not be posible for srp
(14:44:56) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/55ffc3eb: so what I was looking at was maybe get the help of our finance team to look at your finances and that they can help you with tweaking stuff and if they find that you really can ´t fund srp. We can look at the option to get you more tech moons.
(14:46:15) gigx@goonfleet.com: That would be ok
(14:46:18) gigx@goonfleet.com: what I need to do
(14:47:20) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/55ffc3eb: I will talk with our finance team first to see what info they need
(14:47:43) gigx@goonfleet.com: Everything what they need I will give them
(14:48:01) gigx@goonfleet.com: because I realy want to see are my ppl doing good with current mining and income stuff
(14:48:22) gigx@goonfleet.com: since most of my players are in delve
(14:49:02) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/55ffc3eb: our finance team is really good, which you maybe already know
(14:49:10) gigx@goonfleet.com: I know that
(14:49:33) gigx@goonfleet.com: yesterday some guys droped about 7 large towers for moon minning
(14:49:50) gigx@goonfleet.com: and I realy want to see from GSF perspective
(14:49:58) gigx@goonfleet.com: what they are doing
(14:52:36) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/55ffc3eb: for reactions?
(14:52:43) gigx@goonfleet.com: yup
(14:53:04) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/55ffc3eb: we even have reaction guides how to setup the perfect towers + spreadsheets for proffit and such
(14:53:40) gigx@goonfleet.com: I know
(14:54:01) gigx@goonfleet.com: I started with industry guys to start building Battleships
(14:54:04) gigx@goonfleet.com: for alliance
(14:54:15) gigx@goonfleet.com: but there is also 1000+ ppl in alliance
(14:54:26) gigx@goonfleet.com: numbers are not like before
(14:55:04) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/55ffc3eb: yep also that
(14:58:11) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/55ffc3eb: ofcourse we want to see you have numbers first ofcourse if you see my point
(14:58:27) gigx@goonfleet.com: sure
(14:58:29) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/55ffc3eb: but I will try to make point about getting you guys more tech if you look dirty poor
(14:59:19) gigx@goonfleet.com: Look I realy want to see from your side
(14:59:25) gigx@goonfleet.com: whats going on with co2 income

By March 6th, Aryth had pegged the right answer.. Our recommendations for action were ignored, but we’ll get to that later. Much later.

On leadership, April 3rd, 2013

(10:11:20) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f906471a: the thing that is going with co2 now it isn ´t going to stay the serbian group of maf... friends anymore. With this growth it will be more.
(10:12:48) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f906471a: It a large group of players under the banner of CO2 leaded by you
(10:13:40) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f906471a: leading an larger alliance is different then a small one
(10:13:58) gigx@goonfleet.com: true
(10:15:34) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f906471a: The changes or things best to lead a bigger alliance, mittens wrote a nice tips and tricks for it. http://www.tentonham...ve/spymaster/88 Read this and if you have any questions please ask them. They cover most of things that will make co2 stronger.
(10:21:01) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f906471a: I hope this helps
(10:21:15) gigx@goonfleet.com: reading
(10:21:22) gigx@goonfleet.com: interesting
(10:37:56) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f906471a: oke good
(11:03:03) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f906471a: any questions or remarks on the article?
(11:03:21) gigx@goonfleet.com: well I readed
(11:03:26) gigx@goonfleet.com: and its very good
(11:03:45) gigx@goonfleet.com: need to put everything on paper

This was also when we started getting contacts from corporations within the quickly growing CO2 that they were sick of being bossed around and being treated like children by CO2 leadership. Some of those corps are still with CO2, some are not. Throughout it all, Sara Rae and CD smoothed tensions and made peace. He attempted to help Gigx and others in CO2 hone their leadership abilities, abilities they’d need to manage their growing alliance. In all respects, Sara went above and beyond the call of duty as a diplomat to integrate CO2 and help them navigate the complexities of coalition life. It is not overstatement to say that his support of CO2 was key to their growth during this period, as much as the assets of space and moons that they’d been given. Back to the logs.

Sebastien Saintfrusquin was added to coalition coordination channels on April 7th, 2013.

A year into their tenure in the coalition, we were still running their IT for them. We offered to help them set up their own stuff. May 22nd, 2013.

(8:43:12 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: Serbian culture, their version of IT is the messenger pigeon...
(8:43:45 AM) Nina Blaze: lol
(8:44:17 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: Pretty sure we don't have that
(8:45:39 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: Getting us a forum was already such an achievement, I wouldn't expect us to get something that awesome before next year or so...
(8:48:18 AM) Nina Blaze: lol
(8:48:19 AM) Nina Blaze: fair enough
(8:48:27 AM) Nina Blaze: let me see if I can find some dudes to help with that
(8:48:33 AM) Nina Blaze: do you guys have ~anITguy~ in general?
(8:48:47 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: That's a very good question
(8:50:49 AM) Nina Blaze: so, going forward though
(8:50:50 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: Our TS is run by BAT, so literally by you guys
(8:50:53 AM) Nina Blaze: lol
(8:51:03 AM) Nina Blaze: fair enough
(8:51:33 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: Beside that, gigx either is the guy or will designate someone for it
(8:51:53 AM) Nina Blaze: CO2, comparatively is very small alliance. So these sorts of things are expected to happen as you ~grow~
(8:51:59 AM) Nina Blaze: yeah, I'll talk with Gigx some about it
(8:52:03 AM) Nina Blaze: see if we can help

And this is where the Fountain War kicks off.

More mentorship, Seb getting started with coordination. June 6th, 2013.

(22:43:54) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/813ed2b7: are you backseating because I saw you in the command channel?
(22:50:39) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: not exaclty
(22:50:49) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: I talked with theadj
(22:51:44) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/813ed2b7: and?
(22:51:56) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: and since I have little experience he told me to be on command chan
(22:52:03) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: as much as possible
(22:52:15) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: so basically I'm an apprenctice
(22:52:45) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/813ed2b7: ah ofcourse
(22:52:49) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/813ed2b7: got to start somewhere
(22:52:54) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: yep
(23:09:43) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: I'm moved
(23:09:56) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: CO2 commited ALL its supers here, all 10 of them
(23:10:01) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: I could cry

On the 20th of June, CO2 killed a Black Legion Tower in the north. For context, Black Legion had been hitting our assets in the north while we were fighting in Fountain. The war was not going well in the south, and bouncing back and forth was severely hurting our ability to either defend our space or prosecute the war. After Elo Knight wiped out our TFI fleet, we signed a merc contract with Black Legion, effectively eliminating the threat to our back yard, and allowing us to focus on Fountain completely. This was important as we were still very much outnumbered in Fountain, and losing ground.

After the contract was signed, Gigx pulled CO2 back to “eliminate hostile towers” in the north, which were of course the old staging towers Black Legion had been using to hit our holdings. With BL under contract, there was no threat from those staging towers, but Gigx temporary pulled his forces from the war--and jeopardized the coalition’s chances in the war and our newly signed merc contract with BL--to appease his pride.

This was the first sign that CO2’s mentality had started to shift away from “how can we help the coalition and prove ourselves” to “fuck you, got mine.”

Wherein we, for the first time, see Gigx’s true greed on display. For some additional context, this was after the Tech nerf, and r64’s and space was being reshuffled around the entire coalition after the Fountain War. We’d also lost a fair number of moon holdings in the north which we had not yet taken back. The realities of the coalition and the war came second, from here on out it’s all CO2 self interest and only escalates. Note the excessive tone change: August 26th, 2013.

23:41:01) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/77369eaf: Hey dude
(23:41:06) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/77369eaf: sup I hear you are not happy?
(23:41:48) gigx@goonfleet.com: Ofcourse I`m not happy
(23:41:57) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/77369eaf: why ?
(23:42:13) gigx@goonfleet.com: Fountain war ended
(23:42:21) gigx@goonfleet.com: we got loses we spend isk
(23:42:24) gigx@goonfleet.com: but ok for what
(23:42:33) gigx@goonfleet.com: to go now on another deployment
(23:42:55) gigx@goonfleet.com: and not getting anything
(23:43:09) gigx@goonfleet.com: I`m not greedy
(23:43:11) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/77369eaf: we never expected to take more then fountain but now that it will trown in our lap
(23:43:16) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/77369eaf: we are going to take it
(23:43:28) gigx@goonfleet.com: Do you know how many R64 co2 have
(23:43:31) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/77369eaf: and we want to do spoils at once and not do fountain en then delve
(23:43:34) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/77369eaf: I know dude
(23:43:38) gigx@goonfleet.com: 1
(23:43:48) gigx@goonfleet.com: BL and 401k took all of them
(23:43:55) gigx@goonfleet.com: and when we started to getting back
(23:44:19) gigx@goonfleet.com: I got info that GSF want us to stop taking our moons back from venal
(23:44:34) gigx@goonfleet.com: we went to fountain with one r64
(23:44:45) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/77369eaf: but you knew about the situation in delve right from the autocrat channel?
(23:45:33) gigx@goonfleet.com: nope
(23:45:36) gigx@goonfleet.com: I dont know
(23:45:41) gigx@goonfleet.com: and also I didnt ask
(23:45:58) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/77369eaf: its has been talked about it in the channel from what I know
(23:46:07) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/77369eaf: so I thought that you knew about the situation
(23:47:12) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/77369eaf: like with the tribute/vale war
(23:47:17) gigx@goonfleet.com: I know what mittani saying on skype
(23:47:20) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/77369eaf: we waited with spoils till we had vale also
(23:47:27) gigx@goonfleet.com: but I also see what other guys talking about spoils
(23:47:37) gigx@goonfleet.com: and how much moons they already have
(23:47:38) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/77369eaf: so far only li3 and fa got their spoils
(23:47:45) gigx@goonfleet.com: and how much they will get
(23:47:53) gigx@goonfleet.com: what should I talk on skype
(23:48:04) gigx@goonfleet.com: I can just read
(23:48:33) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/77369eaf: 1sec restarting jabber its hanging
(23:50:17) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/81b8d987: sorry I can´t do much about this situation
(23:50:21) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/81b8d987: its not in my hands
(23:50:28) gigx@goonfleet.com: ok who can do
(23:50:28) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/81b8d987: its all comming from higher up the chain
(23:50:51) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/81b8d987: talk to mittens or draghkar
(23:50:54) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/81b8d987: because I would like to help
(23:51:03) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/81b8d987: but my hands are tight also
(23:51:24) gigx@goonfleet.com: CO2 helped alot
(23:51:30) gigx@goonfleet.com: we are always with CFC
(23:51:36) gigx@goonfleet.com: with numbers we have
(23:51:47) gigx@goonfleet.com: I think we are doing very good
(23:52:05) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/81b8d987: you helped with numbers but it wasnt really good if you looked at the rest
(23:52:09) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/81b8d987: compared to the others
(23:52:36) gigx@goonfleet.com: Other alliances have more resourse
(23:52:40) gigx@goonfleet.com: and more space
(23:52:50) gigx@goonfleet.com: I cant recruit
(23:53:01) gigx@goonfleet.com: because I dont have place where to put new ppl

Hmm… I wonder what this could be about. Finance directors trying to force people out and gain control? December 22nd, 2013

11:09:15) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: Hey dude
(11:09:17) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: whats going on?
(11:10:15) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: nothing much for me
(11:10:23) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: some internal drama for the alliance
(11:10:35) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: so I heard
(11:10:55) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: I happen to be apolitical as they come, so everything I know is hearsay since I'm very rarely involved in such matters
(11:11:28) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: yeah I know maybe better at times
(11:11:43) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: seems like shadow directorship (basically the main money makers) are pushing out the actual directors one by one, from what I can see
(11:12:17) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: and if what I hear is true, gigX totally blundered yesterday by trying to wash his hands from the issue one time too many
(11:12:21) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: you mean mmarlon?
(11:12:51) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: exalien more than mmarlon I think
(11:12:58) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: ah oke
(11:13:01) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: but mmarlon wants exalien to stay
(11:13:20) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: so pushes more for exalien then the directors
(11:13:34) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: pushes more for conciliation I'd say
(11:13:54) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: and exalien is not very conciliatory
(11:14:03) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: so this ain't working
(11:14:10) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: so it will keep happing
(11:14:17) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: not really
(11:14:54) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: gigX tried to take the high road yesterday and told everyone to stop the drama, but it will cost us our most valuable directors I'm afraid
(11:16:36) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: I would be really sad if it would end like this
(11:16:49) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: yeah
(11:16:57) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: no idea how shit can go south so damn fast
(11:17:09) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: yeah I¨m asking myself that also
(11:17:27) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: do you have at least good news on the war front ?
(11:17:42) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: we have a plan on how to defeat the shpere
(11:18:14) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: tell me it involves a guy cutting the power at some houses in deep MidWest

More on that, same date.

(11:11:16) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: Morning gigx
(11:11:53) gigx@goonfleet.com: Morning Sara
(11:12:07) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: how is it going?
(11:13:10) gigx@goonfleet.com: Well we finished moving into Curse
(11:13:22) gigx@goonfleet.com: now waiting for titan
(11:13:44) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: ah oke so waiting that you can bridge from hemin
(11:13:52) gigx@goonfleet.com: yea
(11:14:38) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: I hear there are some problems with you guys? Whats going on?
(11:15:07) gigx@goonfleet.com: What kind of problems?
(11:15:16) gigx@goonfleet.com: You need to be little directly
(11:16:12) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: With missy and da winci apparently
(11:16:23) gigx@goonfleet.com: ohh
(11:16:31) gigx@goonfleet.com: Well some stupid issues
(11:16:35) gigx@goonfleet.com: that came to me
(11:17:14) gigx@goonfleet.com: I punished all involved with ISK
(11:17:45) gigx@goonfleet.com: Now Da Winci is mad
(11:18:01) gigx@goonfleet.com: because Da Winci was requesting kicking guy from alliance
(11:18:17) gigx@goonfleet.com: which will evolve to leaving one good corp in co2
(11:18:52) gigx@goonfleet.com: and also destroy corp who is making income in alliance
(11:20:37) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: Yeah this is not fun or good
(11:20:57) sara_rae@goonfleet.com/f1bbb852: both options
(11:21:13) gigx@goonfleet.com: Da Winci needed to request CEO meeting
(11:21:21) gigx@goonfleet.com: and talk with CEO of that member
(11:21:33) gigx@goonfleet.com: not fighting with member

28th of January, 2014. Seb loses a titan, CO2 takes up a donation drive to replace it since the alliance is still mysteriously poor. Ongoing at this time, the Curse War in the south, which CO2 had withdrawn from to again fight Black Legion over towers in Venal. Then Sky Marshal Blawrf Mctaggart brokered a compromise between CO2 and Lucia to get CO2 to fight with the coalition again in the south.

Apparently real life stuff is okay in CO2? Here’s hoping it was idle boasting. February 12th, 2014.

[19:41:05] SaraRae: Evening gigx
[19:41:11] SaraRae: we banned some bl spies in co2
[19:41:19] Darko Subotic - gigX: hmmm
[19:41:24] Darko Subotic - gigX: do we know who are they
[19:41:33] SaraRae: I have a list
[19:41:39] Darko Subotic - gigX: can you show me
[19:41:46] SaraRae: CO2 - Danijel Aegon Zagorec - Singu from Black Legion
CO2 - Keira Kurvora - Zi'el Aubaris from Black Legion
[19:42:49] Darko Subotic - gigX: Digi told me
[19:43:01] Darko Subotic - gigX: Danijel Aegon is from Croatia
[19:43:11] Darko Subotic - gigX: my guys founded his street address
[19:43:23] Darko Subotic - gigX: so we waiting him now to login
[19:43:34] SaraRae: and if he logs in what then?
[19:43:48] Darko Subotic - gigX: we checking one more thing
[19:43:53] Darko Subotic - gigX: but anyway
[19:44:04] Darko Subotic - gigX: we will visit him soon
[19:44:49] SaraRae: irl?
[19:44:56] Darko Subotic - gigX: ofcourse
[19:44:59] Darko Subotic - gigX: he is close
[19:45:19] Darko Subotic - gigX: We cannot punish him in game
[19:45:24] Darko Subotic - gigX: but irl we can

Feburary 18th, 2014, TheJudge added as CO2 diplomat.

Theadj having a perfectly reasonable response upon finding out Lucian James was in CO2 and in his channels. For those of you who know Theadj, you’ll know that this was him being exceptionally restrained and diplomatic. March 6th, 2014.

(6:48:38 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/69eb8cee: would you care to elaborate on the Lucian James incident few hours ago please?

(6:49:00 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/69eb8cee: i'm aware that he made some stupid mistakes

(6:49:59 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/69eb8cee: so i'm totally okay with him being kicked from gfsc

(6:50:46 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/69eb8cee: the other part of the conversation and the banning from RC are uncalled for I think

(10:47:38 PM) theadj@goonfleet.com/cd992850: that piece of shit shouldn't even be in the CFC, much less on our services

(3/6/2014 3:09:44 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/9c9b5a44: I'm sure you'll find bigger turds within the cfc. For now he is part of my alliance and you might start to rethink the way you apparently choose to talk to your allies.

(3:10:44 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/9c9b5a44: Its not the first time your language isn't really what I expect it to be for a guy in your position

(3:11:31 AM) theadj@goonfleet.com/cd992850: you are free to complain to CD about it

(3:11:36 AM) theadj@goonfleet.com/cd992850: results will be the same

(3:11:47 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/9c9b5a44: nice umbrella you have there

(3:11:54 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/9c9b5a44: I was talking to you

(3:12:05 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/9c9b5a44: already had my talk with CD

(3:12:14 AM) theadj@goonfleet.com/cd992850: it's almost like he's a persona non grata who got into an ally, which we can't do anything about

(3:12:18 AM) theadj@goonfleet.com/cd992850: doesn't mean I have to tolerate him

(3:12:29 AM) theadj@goonfleet.com/cd992850: you're free to recruit who you wish

(3:12:45 AM) theadj@goonfleet.com/cd992850: just don't be surprised when people like him dont' get a warm welcome

(3:12:50 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/9c9b5a44: true, but you went really out of your way to ban him

(3:13:01 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/9c9b5a44: the RC access he needs to have

(3:13:02 AM) theadj@goonfleet.com/cd992850: im thorough

(3:13:15 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/9c9b5a44: no, that was overreacting

More finance stuff, March 17th, 2014.

(4:32:24 PM) Gicer: Shame, So I needed to talk to you or Da Winci about mmarlon.
(4:33:44 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: yes you can
(4:34:23 PM) Gicer: Ok, am I right that he runs most of your POS setup and moon mining?
(4:34:52 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: yes
(4:34:56 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: more then 400 towers
(4:35:04 PM) Gicer: Wow,
(4:35:52 PM) Gicer: Ok, so aryth think's that hes keeping a LOT of your minerals and keeping money from you.  Like "fuck Goons" ammounts of money.
(4:36:28 PM) Gicer: From looking at the finances, do you want me to look into it for you.  Or would you rather talk to him yourself?
(4:36:56 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: I realy didnt undestand how he doing this
(4:37:09 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: but lots of people who working on those 400 towers
(4:37:17 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: taking money for that work
(4:37:26 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: and sharing 50/50 with alliance
(4:42:08 PM) Gicer: So you let people take 50% of POS materials?
(4:42:30 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: They making profit on empty moons
(4:42:48 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: They buying moon stuff from jita
(4:42:52 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: react in co2 space
(4:42:57 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: and sharing profit 50/50
(4:48:52 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: sec let me find finance report
(4:48:54 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: for last month
(4:48:59 PM) Gicer: Ok
(4:53:55 PM) Gicer: Here's my concern.  How do you hold people to 50/50.  I mean your method of running a POS network is very similar to running a corruption network dealing with backhanders.  And the fact is that corruption will never stick to a 50/50 rule.
(4:54:07 PM) Gicer: Aryth thinks you guys should be a lot richer than you are.
(4:56:12 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: I never go deep into those reaction stuff
(4:56:32 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: I know that people who hold 10-15 towers each in mmarlon corp
(4:56:34 PM) Gicer: Well, it's quite possible mmarlon is richer than CO2
(4:56:44 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: getting paid for 1bil isk per month
(4:57:06 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: MMarlon was always richer then CO2
(4:57:17 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: he hold plex on jita market
(4:57:21 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: and lots of stuff

From “we don’t need that much” to “give me allied space. March 17th, 21014.

(5:15:20 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: Do you know what plans TNT have about tribute
(5:15:32 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: they holding basicly 2 constellations
(5:15:38 PM) Gicer: What do you mean
(5:15:49 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: and one of those have 0 stations
(5:16:54 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: http://evemaps.dotla.../Tribute/X-VN63
(5:17:35 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: We preparing Gallente egg for NJ4X
(5:17:43 PM) Gicer: I'm not sure what plans they have for it, I could ask their diplo to enquire if you want.
(5:18:12 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: I`m planing to put gallente outpost at entrance of tribute
(5:18:17 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: only nj4 left
(5:18:34 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: and that constellation is also empty
(5:18:46 PM) Gicer: So your interested in the const for CO2?
(5:19:08 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: well I was watching that const for 3 days
(5:19:10 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: noone is using
(5:19:43 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: I would put 2 stations in that const
(5:20:06 PM) Gicer: I can't say but let me ask those questions and get back to you ok?
(5:20:07 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: so intel from UMI toward middle of Tribute will be better
(5:20:19 PM) Gicer: I understand.
(5:20:25 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fdaffd1c: yea you can ask

And hrm, more of this MMarlon guy…  March 30th, 2014.

FR 2014.03 and farewell
From: MMarlon
Sent: 2014.03.30 17:59
To:

Short preliminary financial report for march 2014:
https://docs.google....QXc&usp=sharing

this one is for last year: http://www.point.com...p/CO2FR2013.pdf

this is my last public financial report, as of yesterday I was discharged from my duties as FCO.

It’s been so many years. I had a single task to fill our wallets. I have done. Older amongst you can tell you where when and how the job was done good. Or bad. Irrelevant, let’s go ahead.

I wish you all good game and prosper; and it’s in the best time imaginable one can leave, it’s peace, years of work have filled alliance wallet, and the rules set will bring you steady and very good income for long time ahead.

Thank you, good game.
Marlon

The short version of this story is this: MMarlon had been systematically obliterating CO2 finances to the tune of hundreds of billions of isk. It was why, no matter how much space they had, no matter how much we tried to help them set up best practices, no matter how many moons they had, they were perpetually poor. This is the advice we gave them on March 6th, 2013, that they were being robbed. It wasn’t until a year and one month later, when Gicer, formerly of CO2, told them the same thing that they finally took action on it. The greed CO2 had displayed during and following the Fountain War was due to the mismanagement of their own finances, which we had tried repeatedly to help them with. At this point though, the damage to their mentality as an alliance was done. They saw people around them--people who better managed their finances, in many cases had less coalition spoils, and didn’t get robbed of hundreds of billions of isk--affording fancy things like basic SRP. Their conclusion was not to better manage their money, but that they were being cheated out of space and income by the coalition. Their gross mismanagement was somehow our fault, despite our warnings.

The worst part of all of this was how smug Aryth was when it finally went down. He is to this day insufferable if you mention this particular topic.

Between March and July, Da Winci repeatedly nagged us for more space, more of everything, and reiterated how much better they were than the rest of the allies in the coalition. In mid-July, the diplomat that had spent so much time and effort helping them over the previous two years resigned due to real life reasons, and they were assigned new diplomats.

Following is that conversation, wherein Da Winci himself directly credits CD and our efforts with helping CO2 grow, July 20th, 2014:

5:12:32 PM da_winci [CO2]: Howdy
5:12:49 PM da_winci [CO2]: if and when possible, could you spare me a minute?
5:13:26 PM da_winci [CO2]: have some things I'd like to discuss regarding the recent diplo shuffles
5:17:05 PM sion_kumitomo: hey, what's up
5:18:58 PM da_winci [CO2]: I was wondering what happened to Sara - how come we didnt get informed - the lack of weight for the assigned new diplos
5:21:06 PM da_winci [CO2]: to bluntly state my questions ..
5:21:27 PM sion_kumitomo: didn't sara or one of the other diplomats contact you about sara quitting?
5:22:27 PM da_winci [CO2]: well to be fair, I was on vacation the past 2 weeks. So I didnt have my finger on the pulse
5:23:14 PM da_winci [CO2]: but I find it rather strange that Ektony convoed me a while ago with some pretty noobish questions
5:23:40 PM da_winci [CO2]: and next thing i know he's the new Goon diplo for CO2
5:24:29 PM da_winci [CO2]: as for Sara, I did notice a drop in activity lately, but nothing that would have me conclude he was quitting
5:25:34 PM sion_kumitomo: ektony is a new diplomat. it's a lot to absorb to bring a new diplomat up to speed and takes time. sara started out the same way, if you remeber
5:26:02 PM sion_kumitomo: has ektony not being doing a good job or something?
5:26:58 PM da_winci [CO2]: Frankly, if you (he) assume that GIH is still our home system you (he) didnt do his homework properly
5:27:27 PM da_winci [CO2]: and my diplos are telling me he isnt really of much help in general
5:28:04 PM da_winci [CO2]: the second diplo I dont even know by name
5:28:04 PM sion_kumitomo: which diplos are telling you that, and did they say why?
5:28:35 PM da_winci [CO2]: basically all of them
5:28:50 PM da_winci [CO2]: they feel as if they need to hold him by the hand
5:29:03 PM sion_kumitomo: in what respect?
5:30:36 PM da_winci [CO2]: Generally speaking. Sara could get things sorted. Most encounters with Ektony end in us sorting it ourselves
5:30:45 PM da_winci [CO2]: dont get me wrong tho
5:31:10 PM sion_kumitomo: what encounters?
5:31:21 PM sion_kumitomo: give me some specifics to work with here
5:32:58 PM da_winci [CO2]: Not knowing how to sort Jabber issues - not knowing if we can transfer sov (and how to go about getting more in Trib) - Unbanning CO2 members - Having background on some people
5:33:46 PM da_winci [CO2]: very specific stuff I (we) could discuss with Sara, but I feel cannot be handled by him
5:33:57 PM sion_kumitomo: that's all procedural stuff that comes with time. diplomats do not spring fully formed from the head of zeus
5:34:26 PM sion_kumitomo: the other diplomat assigned to co2 is konrad kane. have you talked with him about any of this?
5:34:46 PM da_winci [CO2]: nope, no introductions have been made yet
5:35:10 PM sion_kumitomo: that's curious, I'm going to have to look into that
5:35:32 PM sion_kumitomo: sara was a good diplomat, but he also had two and half years of experience
5:37:27 PM da_winci [CO2]: C , the general feeling I'm getting from this is that we, according to what I think our position is, are not represented in a decent way (fair because my English lacks to convey the nuance there)
5:37:52 PM da_winci [CO2]: *decent because...
5:38:25 PM sion_kumitomo: co2 is a valuable and capable alliance, you don't really need to worry too much about representation
5:38:58 PM sion_kumitomo: that said, if you do have concerns about stuff, you're welcome to be like "yo, this is a big deal"
5:39:16 PM sion_kumitomo: if there are outstanding issues that I'm not aware of, I'm happy to add them to my list
5:39:50 PM da_winci [CO2]: I myself and we as an alliance do not go running around screaming that 'stuff' is a big deal
5:40:24 PM da_winci [CO2]: but I do find it important enough to bring it on the table
5:40:28 PM sion_kumitomo: well, a new diplomat asking questions and trying to understand things is more preferable in my opinion than one trying to tell you what to do right off the bat
5:40:42 PM sion_kumitomo: he's trying to understand and catch up, and that's a good sign
5:41:22 PM sion_kumitomo: as for his perceived 'internal weight,' that's not how we operate. he'll be listened to as any diplomat is listened to
5:42:04 PM sion_kumitomo: that is, if your concern is that co2's concerns will suddenly drop off the coalition radar due to sara's resignation, I can assure you that won't be the case
5:42:28 PM sion_kumitomo: which is why I'm more concerned about the whole lack of contact thing as opposed to the asking questions thing
5:43:17 PM da_winci [CO2]: We are pretty adept at wielding our Serbian battle-axes. If we really want your attention i'm sure we could get it  
5:44:39 PM da_winci [CO2]: but yes, I anticipated a more active approach from both of them. Sara knew perfectly that regarding politics I'm the one to talk to
5:45:05 PM da_winci [CO2]: And by doing that he helped CO2 to grow and prosper
5:45:26 PM sion_kumitomo: sara did great work, yeah
5:45:45 PM sion_kumitomo: he was also there from the beginning when you guys joined up with the cfc
5:45:46 PM da_winci [CO2]: can only nod in agreement
5:46:44 PM da_winci [CO2]: yes, and Ektony was part of CO2 even. But i'm not getting the impression he grasped (or grasps) what we are trying to achieve
5:46:56 PM sion_kumitomo: he may not, he's just started after all
5:47:47 PM da_winci [CO2]: I'll give him some time to get to know the inner workings, promise
5:47:57 PM sion_kumitomo: experience matters, particularly in diplomacy
5:48:09 PM da_winci [CO2]: but I do expect a more active approach really
5:48:13 PM sion_kumitomo: I have high standards myself. if he doesn't meet them I'll fire him
5:48:38 PM sion_kumitomo: you and me both. I expect my diplomats to be proactive and engaged
5:49:07 PM sion_kumitomo: so we'll see. I'll talk to him about it all and we'll see over the next couple months heh
5:49:24 PM da_winci [CO2]: appreciated!
5:49:29 PM da_winci [CO2]: one other thing tho
5:50:06 PM da_winci [CO2]: how negotiable is a sov gain after Delve?
5:50:32 PM sion_kumitomo: sov gain for you in tribute I assume?
5:51:11 PM da_winci [CO2]: well, to push all my happy buttons... yes, that is for Trib yes
5:51:29 PM sion_kumitomo: I'm not sure
5:51:43 PM sion_kumitomo: I'll have ektony look into it though
5:51:49 PM da_winci [CO2]: tho I discussed possible Vale scenario's with Sara
5:52:02 PM sion_kumitomo: may as well throw him to the sharks, into the deep end, into the fire etc.
5:52:19 PM sion_kumitomo: plus then he'll be forced to talk to you
5:52:42 PM da_winci [CO2]: no wonder you are head of CD
5:52:52 PM sion_kumitomo: because I'm a right bastard?
5:53:13 PM da_winci [CO2]: you could be Serbian for all I know 
5:53:28 PM sion_kumitomo: hahaha
5:53:50 PM sion_kumitomo: mittani calls me a 'ruthless pragmatist'
5:53:55 PM da_winci [CO2]: on the side, you convinced me with the 'data entry point' piece for TMC
5:54:25 PM sion_kumitomo: you read it?
5:54:39 PM da_winci [CO2]: ofc I did
5:54:49 PM da_winci [CO2]: solid reasoning
5:54:56 PM sion_kumitomo: well thanks dude
5:55:20 PM da_winci [CO2]: I appreciate a working brain, ruthless or not
5:55:50 PM da_winci [CO2]: and I do like my diplos to be 'real politiker'
5:56:20 PM sion_kumitomo: preaching to the choir
5:56:40 PM da_winci [CO2]: so I figured you'd understand my concern about the weight of representatives
5:56:41 PM sion_kumitomo: realpolitik is a great policy expression for pragmatism
5:56:47 PM sion_kumitomo: I do indeed
5:57:10 PM sion_kumitomo: how this usually works is that I task a diplomat to look into something in detail, then they present it and we figure out where to go from there
5:57:32 PM da_winci [CO2]: I figured that one out myself yes
5:58:14 PM sion_kumitomo: so the only person who listens to and weighs that stuff is myself with input from the other diplomats, doesn't have to go through any kind of committee or whatever
5:59:07 PM da_winci [CO2]: sounds good - forgive me if I try to channel said person for the time to come
5:59:13 PM sion_kumitomo: particularly with new people, I try to train them to be independent so they can find their diplomatic swagger sooner. which means mistakes along the way sure, but leads to guys like sara too
5:59:34 PM sion_kumitomo: it's no worries dude. you want the best for your alliance, I get that
6:00:06 PM da_winci [CO2]: I'll eagerly tap on your shoulder when I feel he is drowning in something then
6:00:36 PM sion_kumitomo: and I will eagerly kick stuff back to him if I think he can handle it or if it'll help him grow
6:00:53 PM da_winci [CO2]: deal
6:00:59 PM sion_kumitomo:
6:01:03 PM da_winci [CO2]: I think we are on the same page here
6:01:19 PM sion_kumitomo: yeah
6:01:25 PM sion_kumitomo: I'll talk to them both too
6:01:40 PM sion_kumitomo: so we'll see how they do post that talk
6:01:49 PM da_winci [CO2]: I'll leave you sifting through your data entry points then
6:02:01 PM sion_kumitomo: never not
6:02:11 PM sion_kumitomo: thanks for bringing these concerns to my attention too
6:02:28 PM da_winci [CO2]: much appreciated for lending me your ear(s)
6:03:03 PM da_winci [CO2]: will keep my diplos in line also
6:03:19 PM da_winci [CO2]: have a nice evening there
6:03:37 PM sion_kumitomo: I shall, I think I'm going to take a walk and get some ice cream at some point. seems summery
6:03:45 PM sion_kumitomo: hope you have a good night yourself

At around this time, we started spinning up PBLRD, our fantastically profitable coalition rental program. The ‘coalition’ part of that is important, while we were running the program, the actual profits were distributed amongst the coalition. This meant that we repeatedly denied CO2’s requests for more space in Vale of the Silent since it was being used for coalition income. CO2 advocated that their personal income as an alliance mattered more than shared income across the coalition, and we politely replied that the entire coalition took that space, and should benefit in the best way possible. CO2 spent months furious about this.

Note how greed, isk, and more of both are becoming themes here?

August 10th, 2014. We were again embroiled in war, and had again denied CO2’s request to have rental space shifted over to their personal holdings. Their response was to abandon our military efforts:

(10:18:03 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/10fd1cd7: Howdy man
(10:19:17 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/10fd1cd7: had very unnerving news from CD and GSOL yesterday so we are pulling out of Delve
(2:56:48 PM) blawrf_mctaggart@goonfleet.com/cawg: excuse me?
(2:57:36 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/10fd1cd7: giving you a heads up that CO2 will be pulling out in the days to come
(2:57:41 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/10fd1cd7: as we discussed
(2:59:07 PM) blawrf_mctaggart@goonfleet.com/cawg: throwing a hissy fit and weakening a strategic defensive campaign is probably not the way to go about this
(2:59:08 PM) blawrf_mctaggart@goonfleet.com/cawg: but w/e
(2:59:35 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/10fd1cd7: hissy fit?
(3:00:17 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/10fd1cd7: we discussed it weeks ago and came to the conclusion it would be wrapped up by now
(3:00:19 PM) blawrf_mctaggart@goonfleet.com/cawg: this is either you pulling out because you planned to a fortnight ago or you pulling out in reaction to a silly spat with CD
(3:00:28 PM) blawrf_mctaggart@goonfleet.com/cawg: and no, i never came to that conclusion
(3:00:36 PM) blawrf_mctaggart@goonfleet.com/cawg: it's pretty obvious that you're doing this to spite CD
(3:00:44 PM) blawrf_mctaggart@goonfleet.com/cawg: i'm trying to defend our fucking coalition here, winci
(3:01:31 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/10fd1cd7: and I feel there is very little love for the alliance that is pulling that defence
(3:01:44 PM) blawrf_mctaggart@goonfleet.com/cawg: bullshit
(3:01:49 PM) blawrf_mctaggart@goonfleet.com/cawg: i'm not even going to get into this conversation with you right now
(3:01:56 PM) blawrf_mctaggart@goonfleet.com/cawg: because you've angered me
(3:01:58 PM) blawrf_mctaggart@goonfleet.com/cawg: later.

No really, there’s no space. August 10th, 2014

6:04:46 AM da_winci [CO2]: Howdy man
6:06:48 AM da_winci [CO2]: as a follow-up on the monster-convo I had with Ektony yesterday I would like to have the conclusion(s)  of that officially confirmed by you
8:43:24 AM sion_kumitomo: hey, what's up
8:44:25 AM da_winci [CO2]: apart from the convo I had with Ektony about sov not much
8:45:26 AM sion_kumitomo: literally been out drinking with goons since thursday
8:45:41 AM sion_kumitomo: bi-annual goonp thing
8:45:43 AM da_winci [CO2]: ouch, and now you get this on your plate
8:45:46 AM da_winci [CO2]: sorry for that
8:45:52 AM sion_kumitomo: is no worries
8:46:02 AM sion_kumitomo: just means I'm a bit behind on things mostly
8:46:13 AM sion_kumitomo: so what did you want to discuss exactly?
8:47:00 AM da_winci [CO2]: well had a 7 hour convo with him about sov and related things
8:48:10 AM da_winci [CO2]: and my understanding is in short this..
8:48:31 AM da_winci [CO2]: no systems will be handed out any longer (as in any)
8:48:48 AM da_winci [CO2]: regardless of effort and participation
8:49:26 AM da_winci [CO2]: also, it seems that all CONDI sov in both Vale and Trib is 'spoken for' by GSOL
8:50:33 AM da_winci [CO2]: that puts us (and others frankly) in a situation where it really doesnt matter what you do, gains are not to be had
8:50:59 AM da_winci [CO2]: are even not to be discussed
8:52:17 AM da_winci [CO2]: its a long read, but in short I dont see how participating gets us (or anyone) anything
8:52:43 AM sion_kumitomo: that's true broadly speaking across the whole cfc
8:52:43 AM da_winci [CO2]: I feel cheated basically
8:52:54 AM sion_kumitomo: well, let's look at it
8:53:15 AM sion_kumitomo: you remember the tribute war when you got your first sov from the cfc, right?
8:53:41 AM da_winci [CO2]: hardly, was a political noob back then
8:55:04 AM sion_kumitomo: back then, co2 got a constellation as sort of an investment toward future successes. at the same time, tnt got their first ever expansion of sov space in tribute as well
8:55:56 AM sion_kumitomo: you guys then proved yourselves, and ended up with basically all of tribute minus the tnt spoils holdings, aside from places where gsf has jb sov
8:56:14 AM sion_kumitomo: where you still have pve and moon rights, just not sov rights
8:56:47 AM sion_kumitomo: that is a substantial increase in holdings over a, on coalition time frames, short time frame
8:56:56 AM sion_kumitomo: for example, look at razor
8:57:17 AM sion_kumitomo: razor got tenal way way back during the branch war
8:57:30 AM sion_kumitomo: and has gotten no sov since
8:57:57 AM sion_kumitomo: this is not a case of "if you participate you'll get even more stuff" which was made abundantly clear after the last round of spoils
8:58:15 AM da_winci [CO2]: who'd need more then Tenal? 
9:01:39 AM sion_kumitomo: them, apparently, since they later took CE after killing IRC
9:02:58 AM sion_kumitomo: alright so that's the first thing, legacy spoils issues
9:03:13 AM da_winci [CO2]: sec
9:03:28 AM da_winci [CO2]: now Blarwf is shitting on my head
9:03:29 AM sion_kumitomo: ie, it's nuts to say to someone "oh sorry, you participation during that war no longer matters and your rewards are being taken away"
9:03:48 AM da_winci [CO2]: look, this is not cool anymore
9:04:41 AM da_winci [CO2]: if the overall reaction on what I feel is a justified request is getting lectured and shat on, I'll pass on this
9:05:31 AM sion_kumitomo: well sara rae apparently did you a massive disservice by not discussing how spoils and such work in the cfc
9:06:12 AM da_winci [CO2]: really, I still dont see a valid respons other than a) outright hostility or  wordzzzz
9:06:54 AM da_winci [CO2]: If for any reason sov is no longer to be expected based on participation then state it
9:07:03 AM sion_kumitomo: http://evemaps.dotla...p/Tribute#npc24 I want you to look at that maps and tell me what you see
9:08:09 AM sion_kumitomo: okay look, we went over this after fountain and delve. there is no more sov to give, we're done. the only sov shuffling that has happened has been due to gents collapsing. that's it, we've hit our borders
9:08:43 AM sion_kumitomo: what you're asking for is to cannibalize other allied space, space which they too earned, and that is simply not going to happen
9:09:31 AM sion_kumitomo: the idea of the coalition is that we watch each other's backs and work toward the greater good. I'm not compromising on that principle
9:09:40 AM da_winci [CO2]: that was to be expected yes - a clear answer on that would have been sufficient to sort that
9:10:08 AM sion_kumitomo: goons would like more space too, we're by far the most crowded region in the game. fully /half/ of the entire population of the coalition lives in dek
9:10:34 AM sion_kumitomo: I don't even know why you want more space, it appears that the bulk of what you have isn't even getting used
9:11:00 AM da_winci [CO2]: based on what are coming to that conclusion?
9:11:38 AM sion_kumitomo: did you look at the dotlan links?
9:12:06 AM da_winci [CO2]: did yes, we're in Delve atm
9:12:35 AM da_winci [CO2]: would only prove we're active where we are supposed to be
9:12:56 AM sion_kumitomo: well, since you're pulling out, I'm sure I'll have more accurate data within the next few days, no?
9:13:31 AM sion_kumitomo: and we're in delve as well, usually for a system in dek to get colored red it takes about 20k kills per 24hours
9:13:56 AM sion_kumitomo: or roughly
9:14:11 AM sion_kumitomo: the entire region's worth of tribute ratting
9:14:33 AM sion_kumitomo: but, we make do, because we firmly believe that the greater good is worth our sacrifice
9:15:08 AM da_winci [CO2]: let's wrap this up. I have no intention of making a fool of myself in front of the Illuminati for much longer
9:15:34 AM sion_kumitomo: if you're now telling me that not only do you not value the greater good, but that you feel like you should have an ever expanding map blob, then we have reality adjustment that needs to happen
9:16:49 AM da_winci [CO2]: yes, the map blob - it's sad this is being boiled down to this
9:17:20 AM da_winci [CO2]: I will leave it for what it is
9:17:32 AM sion_kumitomo: well since you're attempting to sulk off without telling me what's actually going on, I'm rather left to fill in the blanks myself
9:18:37 AM da_winci [CO2]: I tried to make a case for expanding CO2, making sure that we could stay on the green side of things
9:19:14 AM da_winci [CO2]: It seems somehow I got myself in a corner I really dont want to be in
9:19:18 AM sion_kumitomo: the green side of things?
9:19:24 AM sion_kumitomo: what does that mean?
9:19:47 AM da_winci [CO2]: as in 'not red' when it comes to growth
9:20:48 AM sion_kumitomo: it isn't as if co2 is the only alliance that wants more space
9:21:15 AM sion_kumitomo: so does everyone else. but resources are finite, and so we have to make do as best as we can
9:22:28 AM sion_kumitomo: so you may not be gaining anything, but neither is anyone else. and you're not losing anything. which, under your misconception of shuffling things around based on pure participation, could be a real possibility. say, if fcon showed up massively to a war and decided they wanted tribute
9:22:57 AM da_winci [CO2]: I know - I'll back down from this - it's blowing up in my face and I feel no urge to go clean the mess I'm making
9:23:27 AM sion_kumitomo: this isn't a back down kind of thing. these are basic underpinnings of how the coalition works
9:23:56 AM sion_kumitomo: I'm not sure why sara rae didn't outline this stuff to you in the past, but it appears he didn't and may have made some unrealistic promises
9:24:38 AM da_winci [CO2]: he didnt. Sara was always very correct in pointing out the possibilities
9:25:23 AM da_winci [CO2]: I suppose I was being too focussed on finding ways around it
9:25:25 AM sion_kumitomo: well, then you know that the only reason you got more tribute space was because there was an influx of space to the coalition as a whole, correct?
9:26:05 AM sion_kumitomo: and now, there's no more space coming in, and won't be. so barring people being disbanded or kicked out, we all have to make do with what we have
9:26:07 AM da_winci [CO2]: It wasnt presented to me like that back then but yes
9:26:36 AM sion_kumitomo: well, yeah, you got more space due to your participation levels and the addition of more space, to be more accurate
9:27:32 AM da_winci [CO2]: indeed, and I had to literally drag it from GSOL who wouldnt have given us anything
9:27:44 AM sion_kumitomo: we added three regions with the fountain war, but with the need for rental isk and having a bit over a dozen alliances in the coalition, the real per alliance gains weren't huge
9:28:10 AM sion_kumitomo: yeah, I missed out on that spoils process due to being assigned elsewhere at the time. it was handled poorly
9:28:16 AM da_winci [CO2]: and all-in-all recent developments gave me a deja-vu
9:28:34 AM sion_kumitomo: deja vu in what sense?
9:29:54 AM da_winci [CO2]: the outlines where/are very familiar. Same discussions with new mantras. Back then al of Trib was 'strategic'. Now it was PBLRD
9:30:35 AM da_winci [CO2]: so I assumed I had to negotiate my way through the PBLRD mantra
9:30:57 AM da_winci [CO2]: and hopefully get similar results
9:31:24 AM da_winci [CO2]: I feel I misread the situation
9:31:51 AM da_winci [CO2]: so it IS time to back off from the issue
9:31:59 AM sion_kumitomo: if we're ever in a position where we add more space to the coalition due to whatever reason, we can revisit this stuff
9:32:22 AM sion_kumitomo: won't likely be due to war, will most likely be if a cfc alliance collapses
9:32:50 AM sion_kumitomo: though I mean if you want to wage sov war on people, I suppose that's an option that we could explore too

That was the last of that for a bit. There was some intermittent complaints from CO2 about the sov required for the jb network (pre-Phoebe and fatigue) but by that point we’d given them the rundown on why the coalition required a jb network and yes the sov was technically theirs and so were the moons and that map blobs don’t matter dozens of times. Gigx decided another war staging (Fountain, again) wasn’t worth fighting in, and un-deployed from the coalition back to Tribute to shoot towers in Venal again.

Meanwhile, while still agitating for more stuff in general and abandoning war efforts, Da Winci had no qualms about using threats of coalition reprisal to stave off attacks on their space. November 8th, 2014.

5:02:36 PM da_winci [CO2]: [22:47:12] Da Winci > howdy man

[22:47:28] PsixoZZ KAHI > 0/

[22:47:41] Da Winci > howdy both

[22:48:00] 3A EDy > <url=showinfo:1374//1293009798>PsixoZZ KAHI</url> is bad in english, i will translate for him.

[22:48:33] Da Winci > no problem, I looked for Silent Dodger but he was not online

[22:49:10] Da Winci > anyway.. I discussed your offer. And we dont see any advantage for us there

[22:49:26] Da Winci > you live next door to MTO2

[22:49:46] Da Winci > so you can welp more fleets in there than we can

[22:50:54] Da Winci > the only thing I can see is you guys wanting that system for JB network

[22:52:04] Da Winci > so we have to respectfully decline your offer

[22:52:27] 3A EDy > If you dont want to fight without allies, we can call our allies. When we do it are you sure that goons will help you?

[22:53:35] Da Winci > nothing is <i>sure</i> in this game. So no, I'm not sure. But I'm willing to take my chances

[22:53:50] Da Winci > the same question is true for you

[22:54:09] Da Winci > you sure you and your allies want to risk attacking CFC sov?

[22:55:43] 3A EDy > This is bullshit. Fuck you. Good bye.


5:03:10 PM da_winci [CO2]: just a heads up
5:03:51 PM sion_kumitomo: hahaha
5:04:33 PM sion_kumitomo: too bad you didn't get a chance to drop "we already killed your alliance once" on him
5:05:10 PM da_winci [CO2]: I was left all alone sulking for many missed opportunities there
5:06:53 PM sion_kumitomo: you could have been threatened in new and creative ways

Around this point in time, CO2 started having corps looking for new homes who cited Da Winci’s ego as a reason for leaving, which was new.

A serious incident of grievous mistreatment by the coalition. The discussion on this lasted something like a month. November 17th, 2014.

4:59:45 AM The Judge [CO2]: When you are around could you please poke me. Important things to discuss.
7:30:02 AM sion_kumitomo: morning
7:30:27 AM The Judge [CO2]: Morning (12:30am for me, I guess it is morning!)
7:31:40 AM The Judge [CO2]: I guess we can do aside with all the chitchat and get right to the point then 
7:31:53 AM sion_kumitomo: if you'd like, sure
7:32:47 AM The Judge [CO2]: Da Winci has sent me to talk to you about an issue regarding protocol within the CFC
7:34:27 AM The Judge [CO2]: One of our 200+ man corps (soon to leave now I guess), has been shopping around alliances. They have contacted 4 that we know of. The serious problem here is 2 of those alliances havent said a word to us, and one of those when asked denied it categorically
7:36:09 AM The Judge [CO2]: We feel this is a serious failure in both protocal and interconnected communication between alliances
7:36:11 AM sion_kumitomo: some alliances don't have the greatest internal communication
7:36:33 AM sion_kumitomo: I'll bounce this over to ektony, he should be able to help you sort it out
7:39:15 AM The Judge [CO2]: Before you go, I want to make sure that it is very clear that CO2 is very unimpressed, and frankly upset, about this. As far as the corp leaving to now join FCON, we have accepted that much... but if CO2 assets are to try and be protected under FCON that this corp is holding, there will be some fireworks for sure.
7:39:39 AM sion_kumitomo: are you familiar with the migration policy?
7:39:47 AM The Judge [CO2]: I am
7:42:37 AM sion_kumitomo: then you'll know that no alliance is required to inform you that one of your corps is looking to leave if they have no intent on taking them. that is, is a corp says "we want to leave our current alliance and join you" and if they say "no," there is no obligation that they inform you. where other cfc alliances MUST contact you is if they are considering accepting the offer, and they must do so before final action is taken
7:43:42 AM The Judge [CO2]: From what the corp has told us within the last 12 hours, they have been in talks with FCON and have been told they will be accepted
7:43:46 AM sion_kumitomo: what has happened in the past is that petty alliance leadership has airlocked decent corps over such things
7:43:52 AM sion_kumitomo: so it's a balance
7:44:17 AM sion_kumitomo: well, then fcon is badly in error if they haven't talked to you, and ektony will sort it out
7:44:51 AM The Judge [CO2]: That is where our problem is. The corp leadership is telling us they have been in talks with FCON for some time and have been accepted to transfer. When aarc was questioned by Da Winci, it was denied categorically
7:45:23 AM The Judge [CO2]: And here we are. I was sent as the mailman to make sure you were aware of CO2's view on this matter.
7:45:58 AM sion_kumitomo: okay
7:46:28 AM sion_kumitomo: I'm handing this off to ektony, he'll keep me appraised as to how it all works out

Notice anything different about Gigx’s chattiness compared to when talking to Sara Rae when he wanted into the coalition? Full log follows. December 7th, 2014.

(3:22:56 PM) viktor_raybach: Afternoon, I just wanted to touch base with you on how the new coordination channels are working out for Co2 and your FCs. My impression is that the past couple of days have gotten better for you guys/j4lp/bastion talking to one another, but wanted to get your impression as you're the one using them.
(3:25:40 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/fe1d4ab7: Talk with Da Winci
(3:26:11 PM) viktor_raybach: Okay, and nice job on Tri

While not assisting the coalition, CO2 decided instead to hit Russian assets in PF. This led to a series of talks with XIX and a temporary agreement to hold off on hitting assets until we saw how what would be Fozziesov played out. When informed that we wouldn’t be backing their provocation with the coalition, CO2 got exceptionally angry for a period of weeks, which is well illustrated by the rather long log that follows.

March 4th, 2015:

[04/03/15 17:27:21] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: http://evemaps.dotla...Alliance/events
[04/03/15 17:27:39] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: looks like they are transfering out most (all ?) the ABS.A sov
[04/03/15 17:27:56] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: and seeing TT moved to Venal, maybe they are leaving the X.I.X coalition
[04/03/15 20:57:47] ektony [CONDI]: I’ve heard rumors about Psih going AFK now going back, trying to restart TA again
[04/03/15 20:58:02] ektony [CONDI]: but that could also be dumb rumors
[04/03/15 20:59:20] ektony [CONDI]: Seb: did you come to any decision regarding -GE-?
[04/03/15 21:17:20] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: urgh
[04/03/15 21:17:29] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: forgot to talk about it
[04/03/15 21:18:09] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: better not get them too involved
[04/03/15 21:18:14] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: if they want to come they can
[04/03/15 21:18:20] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: but I won't coordinate with them
[04/03/15 21:18:26] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: too much chances of backfiring
[04/03/15 21:18:58] ektony [CONDI]: heh, you’re right on that
[04/03/15 21:19:32] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: incidentally
[04/03/15 21:19:44] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: we defeated a XIX CTA tonight in a really messy brawl
[04/03/15 21:20:02] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: most of use reshipped 4 times
[04/03/15 21:20:18] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: from napocs to ishtars to logis and tackle to ishtars again
[04/03/15 21:20:37] ektony [CONDI]: in MTO?
[04/03/15 21:20:40] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: yeah
[04/03/15 21:20:43] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: that helped for sure
[04/03/15 21:21:04] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: and PIZZA did play bomb-online
[04/03/15 21:22:08] ektony [CONDI]: https://zkillboard.c..."1695357456"]}/
[04/03/15 21:22:47] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: you can put PIZZA with us
[04/03/15 21:23:40] ektony [CONDI]: even with pizza it still somewhat messy
[04/03/15 21:23:45] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: oh yeah
[04/03/15 21:35:57] Da Winci [CO2]: It would have been nice to at least been kept in the loop regarding the new agreement between cfc and xix
[04/03/15 21:36:53] Da Winci [CO2]: PErrigen is a non-involvement area for the cfc. So nice of our allies to inform us of that
[04/03/15 21:37:44] Da Winci [CO2]: Appreciated guys.
[04/03/15 21:42:15] ektony [CONDI]: “no full-scale CFC involvement” is something I believe Blawrf discussed with you in the beginning of deployment
[04/03/15 21:42:45] ektony [CONDI]: regarding “new agreemnt”, don’t be too worried about that — sov changes put a lot of unknowns as it is
[04/03/15 21:43:09] Da Winci [CO2]: Oh no we didn't discuss that. Go check logs on that.
[04/03/15 21:43:48] Da Winci [CO2]: I asked, as good allies do, if we would overstep something if we invaded abso
[04/03/15 21:44:03] Da Winci [CO2]: Answer was no
[04/03/15 21:44:14] ektony [CONDI]: and you didn’t
[04/03/15 21:44:45] ektony [CONDI]: no one is asking you to stop doing what you’re doing
[04/03/15 21:44:48] Da Winci [CO2]: Now xix gets involved, new agreement get discussed and we know nothing on those details.
[04/03/15 21:45:44] Da Winci [CO2]: Asking to stop? You think we are that restarted to escalate something with xix on the field and no chance of backup?
[04/03/15 21:46:14] Da Winci [CO2]: *retarted
[04/03/15 21:46:44] Da Winci [CO2]: That amounts to the same man
[04/03/15 21:48:14] ektony [CONDI]: you and me recently had a conversation how CD operates, didn’t we? afterwards we made this channel
[04/03/15 21:48:43] Da Winci [CO2]: So the new agreement went totally past CD?
[04/03/15 21:49:02] ektony [CONDI]: some things are getting discussion in CD, sometimes big boys like Mittens and Sion and Death make deals directly
[04/03/15 21:49:43] Da Winci [CO2]: So? And we throw co2 in front of the bus by not telling them?
[04/03/15 21:50:17] ektony [CONDI]: the morning that was known, it was in here
[04/03/15 21:50:46] Da Winci [CO2]: And it states GEMInATE !!
[04/03/15 21:51:56] Da Winci [CO2]: The actual translation into "you can deal with PF and co2 as you see fit" was not in there. Amd if so not communicated.
[04/03/15 21:54:08] Da Winci [CO2]: Look, for at least the last 2 years we have been in the forefront of every war. Check recents activity paps. And when we are confronted with something that might need some help from allies we get thrown in front of the bus.
[04/03/15 21:54:31] Da Winci [CO2]: I'm not amused
[04/03/15 21:57:00] ektony [CONDI]: this deal is something of a temporary band-aid, so we can figure out what to do with sov changes
[04/03/15 21:58:55] Da Winci [CO2]: After we laid our dicks on the table and you watch xix chop it of. That kind of temporary?
[04/03/15 22:06:53] ektony [CONDI]: look, nobody wants to throw you “under the bus”, not me, blawrf, mittens or the CFC
[04/03/15 22:08:24] ektony [CONDI]: it was quite clear that our agreement with XIX at the beginning of your campaign allowed some leeway
[04/03/15 22:08:47] ektony [CONDI]: which you guys used to the best of your abilities, carving out a nice chunk of space
[04/03/15 22:10:18] Da Winci [CO2]: And the moment xix shows some teeth and growls the cfc backs off
[04/03/15 22:11:23] ektony [CONDI]: definitely not because of xix teeth
[04/03/15 22:11:47] Da Winci [CO2]: Because of 'blah PF'
[04/03/15 22:14:22] ektony [CONDI]: not even that
[04/03/15 22:15:24] ektony [CONDI]: we had an agreement with XIX, which was poorly worded — which allowed ABS to do some derping around and you guys launching your campaign
[04/03/15 22:16:19] ektony [CONDI]: which was fine, because technically nobody did anything wrong
[04/03/15 22:17:00] Da Winci [CO2]: https://zkillboard.com/br/29748/
[04/03/15 22:18:50] Da Winci [CO2]: and we have more kills in fact
[04/03/15 22:19:00] Da Winci [CO2]: if you increase timeframe
[04/03/15 22:19:12] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: https://zkillboard.com/br/29752/ starting one hour earlier
[04/03/15 22:19:50] ektony [CONDI]: also pizza should be kinda on your side
[04/03/15 22:20:33] Da Winci [CO2]: they bombed the easiest targets.. as in not the napocs
[04/03/15 22:20:50] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: they did bomb us once on the gate near the end
[04/03/15 22:20:59] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: with a full void bombs volley
[04/03/15 22:21:02] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: (???)
[04/03/15 22:21:29] ektony [CONDI]: total absolution: 1 guy
[04/03/15 22:21:52] ektony [CONDI]: did you catch this bit where Psih is supposedly back?
[04/03/15 22:22:05] Da Winci [CO2]: so our take on this. We give back the moon.. they respond with a CTA towards MTO2
[04/03/15 22:22:24] Da Winci [CO2]: reffed the station and some towers, dropped SBU's
[04/03/15 22:22:59] Da Winci [CO2]: so as far as we are concerned that is a agression towards the CFC
[04/03/15 22:23:25] Da Winci [CO2]: MTO2 already was ours, not theirs to retake
[04/03/15 22:24:03] Da Winci [CO2]: and I understood that not even MTO3 will be defended by the CFC
[04/03/15 22:24:05] ektony [CONDI]: that Oasa moon is unfortunately out of equasion, so it’s not really a trade for PF sov
[04/03/15 22:24:40] Da Winci [CO2]: ow now its out of the equasion? It was on 1 24hrs ago
[04/03/15 22:25:14] ektony [CONDI]: how so?
[04/03/15 22:25:51] ektony [CONDI]: i see your point with MTO though
[04/03/15 22:25:56] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: [02/03/15 12:20:29] Sebastien Saintfrusquin: 1° Figure out what the hell BL is doing next
2° Figure out what the hell CO2 is doing next
3° Figure out what the hell TT was doing bringing Dreads to N5Y yesterday
4° Figure out what the hell all the other parties around (TRI, -GE-, SOLAR to name a few) are doing next
[02/03/15 12:20:54] ektony [CONDI]: 0° untower Oasa moon
[04/03/15 22:26:13] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: I think that's what Da_Winci is referring about
[04/03/15 22:26:40] ektony [CONDI]: anything Sion says is #0 prio for me, and we all know how this works
[04/03/15 22:27:03] Da Winci [CO2]: agreed, but not claim it wasnt part of the equasion
[04/03/15 22:27:04] ektony [CONDI]: back to MTO. the problem is, PF isn’t our space
[04/03/15 22:27:29] ektony [CONDI]: not under any kind of agreement
[04/03/15 22:27:35] ektony [CONDI]: old, new, whatever
[04/03/15 22:27:37] Da Winci [CO2]: MTO2 is for months in my book
[04/03/15 22:28:10] Da Winci [CO2]: can go scan the logs on the reactions in different jabber channels on that
[04/03/15 22:28:30] Da Winci [CO2]: and CFC was happy enough that CO2 pulled that stunt
[04/03/15 22:28:49] ektony [CONDI]: precisely
[04/03/15 22:29:17] Da Winci [CO2]: but now it has outlived its use it doesnt lmatter right?
[04/03/15 22:29:30] Da Winci [CO2]: nor as an asset nor the one defending it
[04/03/15 22:31:44] ektony [CONDI]: CO2 is one of most trusted allies, that’s not how it is at all
[04/03/15 22:31:47] Da Winci [CO2]: http://evf-eve.com/s...=170&t=uLvf&r=1 better report
[04/03/15 22:32:37] ektony [CONDI]: simple version I suppose is, we didn’t care about ABS, since they’re shitlords
[04/03/15 22:33:00] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: Absolution may be thrown under the bus by X.I.X anyway at the rate they are going
[04/03/15 22:33:00] ektony [CONDI]: which is why it was cool to take their systems from them
[04/03/15 22:33:45] ektony [CONDI]: however, it was known that even though we might find ABS, we wouldn’t fight XIX if they’d come
[04/03/15 22:34:11] ektony [CONDI]: simply because we had an agreement (even if it was poorly worded), which we have to respect
[04/03/15 22:34:12] ektony [CONDI]: now
[04/03/15 22:34:59] Da Winci [CO2]: and when asked over the past weeks you specifically stated that 'you were looking at options and seeing how things evolved'.  Now you make it seem as if that point was already decided
[04/03/15 22:35:06] Da Winci [CO2]: that is new info for me
[04/03/15 22:35:28] ektony [CONDI]: i was the one working with XIX on new pact
[04/03/15 22:35:28] Da Winci [CO2]: and could be seen as withholding some vital pieces of infromation
[04/03/15 22:35:48] ektony [CONDI]: which would allow us to do some things and maybe not others
[04/03/15 22:35:52] ektony [CONDI]: so that part is true
[04/03/15 22:36:07] Da Winci [CO2]: I'm even less amused now
[04/03/15 22:36:20] Da Winci [CO2]: seems that part was clear from day one
[04/03/15 22:36:25] ektony [CONDI]: why?
[04/03/15 22:36:32] Da Winci [CO2]: ^^
[04/03/15 22:36:49] ektony [CONDI]: we had disagreements on how we should treat ABS and their other renters
[04/03/15 22:37:07] ektony [CONDI]: for example, our old pact was between us and XIX/XWX, no others
[04/03/15 22:37:31] ektony [CONDI]: so new pact might’ve / might’ve not included them
[04/03/15 22:37:43] ektony [CONDI]: and specify what are core regions
[04/03/15 22:38:07] ektony [CONDI]: however, me and Attakare never actually came to signing that draft
[04/03/15 22:38:13] ektony [CONDI]: or even making a proper draft
[04/03/15 22:38:30] Da Winci [CO2]: when was it decided that the CFc would not get involved with xix in PF ?
[04/03/15 22:39:01] ektony [CONDI]: we had a few discussions to mainly see where we disagree and then my proposal was to work on this separately and see where we’d meet
[04/03/15 22:39:14] ektony [CONDI]: this is the point of time where I told you about “things being discussed"
[04/03/15 22:41:15] ektony [CONDI]: obviously it was known by CD that we were working on such a thing and this would probably be one of those “bottom up” things
[04/03/15 22:42:07] ektony [CONDI]: we’d have to get approvals, etc — I would’ve imagined this would take some time and this is where we’d definitely take your input what you think makes sense
[04/03/15 22:42:14] ektony [CONDI]: so this is last week, basically
[04/03/15 22:43:24] ektony [CONDI]: sunday Sion and XIX talk directly and make a shorter version of deal, which is when on monday I paste it here saying “unfortunate thing rather”
[04/03/15 22:43:29] Da Winci [CO2]: well, i'm too lazy to scan through my logs.  Fact remains that we are sitting pants down in PF without help
[04/03/15 22:43:53] Da Winci [CO2]: and I'm too clever to go do that if I wasnt under the impression that at least MTO2 would be defended
[04/03/15 22:44:24] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: [02/03/15 11:51:53] ektony [CONDI]: sion_kumitomo (https://themittani.s...m/sion_kumitomo) 9:43 PM                             (https://themittani.slack.com/archives/autocrats/p1425267816000259) treaty update time: xix has extended the no structure provision of our previous treaty to encompass off of their pets/allies/renters in geminate. so any structures owned by people on this list in geminate:        https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NS1IEeVQX67reAWEot5tNnESmts89b_LSwids3GgKF8/edit?usp=sharing is to be avoided. additionally, xix/xwx structures regardless of location are not to be attacked (outside of active warzones), and xix/xwx will not attack our structures (outside of active warzones)
[04/03/15 22:45:58] ektony [CONDI]: [02/03/15 13:46:14] blawrf [CONDI]: if death does lead a campaign against your new foothold, the coalition won't be able to offer assistance
[02/03/15 13:46:17] blawrf [CONDI]: as stated in the beginning
[04/03/15 22:46:47] ektony [CONDI]: i mean, it’s not really news that Sion and Mittens can basically override everything and the only option for us as diplos is to say “this is policy now, sol”
[04/03/15 22:47:07] ektony [CONDI]: regarding PF
[04/03/15 22:47:31] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: just to be clear here
[04/03/15 22:47:43] ektony [CONDI]: what was different today that allowed them to ref station?
[04/03/15 22:47:47] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: am I still allowed to call for CFC fleets help for fights ?
[04/03/15 22:48:16] Da Winci [CO2]: and NEW foothold... that is NOT MTO2 ffs
[04/03/15 22:51:26] ektony [CONDI]: Seb: assuming you’re specifically referring to PF CO2 holdings?
[04/03/15 22:51:40] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: assuming I'm referring to a XIX fleet in PF yes
[04/03/15 22:57:02] ektony [CONDI]: i think there’s a very thin line when it comes to that, specifically what is that we can send. i can only make very bad over-generalized examples, like: supers definitely not, harpies probably. blawrf would be right person to make the call
[04/03/15 22:57:37] ektony [CONDI]: the other thing is that you have to think in terms of sov change
[04/03/15 22:57:44] ektony [CONDI]: now more than ever
[04/03/15 22:58:13] Da Winci [CO2]: we are thinking on that
[04/03/15 22:58:18] Da Winci [CO2]: plans galore
[04/03/15 22:58:57] ektony [CONDI]: holding those PF constellations and Tribute
[04/03/15 22:59:10] ektony [CONDI]: might be impossible
[04/03/15 22:59:51] ektony [CONDI]: also at the same time, this sov change opens up a number of political options for us, including XIX too
[04/03/15 23:00:39] ektony [CONDI]: what options? no idea, we’re on day 2 of dev notes, but as you can see from Sion’s log, this is something we want to revisit
[04/03/15 23:01:04] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: I've to say sov changes are very low on my priority list
[04/03/15 23:01:09] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: I'm more concerned in creating content
[04/03/15 23:01:37] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: up to now we had done well in that department
[04/03/15 23:02:19] ektony [CONDI]: Seb: so what is that XIX done differently today that allowed them to ref the station?
[04/03/15 23:02:35] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: their entire supercapital fleet in range
[04/03/15 23:02:45] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: it severly restricts our options
[04/03/15 23:02:59] ektony [CONDI]: which we discussed here that they were moving
[04/03/15 23:03:03] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: ayup
[04/03/15 23:04:41] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: the thing is, contrary to what lots of people in a certain coalition that shall remain unnamed, both X.I.X and CO2 see our supercapitals as fighting ships, not just sov bashing ships
[04/03/15 23:05:06] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: so right now the chances are high that we'll get into a Supercapital fight between CO2 and X.I.X at some point, as both sides have brought their assets in range of each other
[04/03/15 23:05:57] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: This is not because I like throwing supercaps around (I actually prefer solo stuff, easier for my blood pressure), this is because we are facing an opponent with vastly superior numbers, so we need to leverage every advantage we can get, and that includes escalating. Not only that, it is also content, and desperatly needed content for supercapital pilots that have been on a severe diet in this coalition for a long long time
[04/03/15 23:06:43] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: I know I'll never get the CFC supercap fleet involved, I have never been under any illusion on that particular aspect
[04/03/15 23:07:14] ektony [CONDI]: that makes sense from content side; however commiting supers is something you should really be discussing in twr or with blawrf. i don’t want to lead you on to something that might you a lot, thinking this is officially “approved” by the cfc or whatever
[04/03/15 23:07:23] ektony [CONDI]: just not with these guys
[04/03/15 23:07:26] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: oh I did ask
[04/03/15 23:07:38] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: and indeed, blawrf told me no
[04/03/15 23:07:48] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: but even a harpy fleet can be a huge asset in such situations
[04/03/15 23:08:26] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: be it swinging a subcap fight, killing tackle, killing Fighter-Bombers, they can do a lot of things
[04/03/15 23:09:30] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: but if all I have to go is a "harpies probably", that's not encouraging
[04/03/15 23:09:51] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: especially as, gigX rethoric aside, I certainly want neither to take over Perrigen Falls, nor kill X.I.X
[04/03/15 23:10:52] ektony [CONDI]: honestly, i don’t think even harpies are real possibility. from coalation perspective, we don’t care about PF; we care about you guys, but this is neither official CFC deployment
[04/03/15 23:13:07] ektony [CONDI]: the problem with breaching agreement is that it makes it subsequently harder to make any new agreements with anyone after that
[04/03/15 23:15:15] Da Winci [CO2]: Breaching? CO2 in breach? That is taking a walk with the truth
[04/03/15 23:16:06] ektony [CONDI]: no  i’m referring to cfc vs xix pact
[04/03/15 23:17:09] Da Winci [CO2]: even there
[04/03/15 23:18:14] Da Winci [CO2]: we gave back the moon and xix responds with reffeing MTOS station, drop SBU's and shoot towers in MTO2
[04/03/15 23:18:58] ektony [CONDI]: you expected them to get the moon and forget about constellations you took from ABS?
[04/03/15 23:19:25] Da Winci [CO2]: on the field, this agreement of which we were no part whatsoever, means xix can do basically anything we want and if we would respond alike we would socalled breach the agreement...
[04/03/15 23:19:43] Da Winci [CO2]: Abso was NOT in the agreement when we did
[04/03/15 23:20:08] Da Winci [CO2]: and what with the Abso goal of destroying the CFC?
[04/03/15 23:20:24] Da Winci [CO2]: because that WAS something Blarwf mentioned
[04/03/15 23:20:31] Da Winci [CO2]: do with Abso what you want
[04/03/15 23:20:43] Da Winci [CO2]: they are not covered by any agreement
[04/03/15 23:20:51] ektony [CONDI]: they were not
[04/03/15 23:21:13] ektony [CONDI]: again, this is what allowed you to take systems that you have now
[04/03/15 23:21:21] Da Winci [CO2]: and now xix said they are and the cfc pulls their support away?
[04/03/15 23:22:39] ektony [CONDI]: at this rate abs might be a goner
[04/03/15 23:23:23] ektony [CONDI]: which support though?
[04/03/15 23:23:26] Da Winci [CO2]: they are yes, and its not something i'm worried about
[04/03/15 23:23:57] ektony [CONDI]: “do whatever you want with abs” is one thing
[04/03/15 23:24:04] Da Winci [CO2]: support? as I understand even having a harpy fleet is questionable in terms of support
[04/03/15 23:24:18] Da Winci [CO2]: so that amounts to none
[04/03/15 23:25:47] ektony [CONDI]: harpy fleet or any other type of fleet is something blawrf should really be involved with. i told you my guess that it might not happen but i’m not authorized to send or not to send fleets
[04/03/15 23:26:45] ektony [CONDI]: you most definitely have our support now and in future, but we also have a deal (maybe bad deal as far as you see it) and we can’t be the one to breach it, in simple terms
[04/03/15 23:29:24] Da Winci [CO2]: so not defending a strategic important system from an ally is support?
[04/03/15 23:30:00] Da Winci [CO2]: defending it would be breaching something?
[04/03/15 23:30:06] Da Winci [CO2]: really?
[04/03/15 23:30:31] Da Winci [CO2]: I already was not amused, now I'm getting slightly annoyed
[04/03/15 23:30:49] Da Winci [CO2]: so i'm going to bed now
[04/03/15 23:31:11] ektony [CONDI]: think about strategic implications of this
[04/03/15 23:31:24] Da Winci [CO2]: thats exactly what i'm thinking about
[04/03/15 23:31:33] ektony [CONDI]: you want us to burn this bridge for something that we won’t be probably able to hold post-patch
[04/03/15 23:31:47] Da Winci [CO2]: name me 1 strategic implication that could actually hurt the CFC
[04/03/15 23:32:30] Da Winci [CO2]: and defending 1 system is hardly burning a bridge
[04/03/15 23:32:53] ektony [CONDI]: it’s not about 1 system or 2, or MTO or BWF or whatever
[04/03/15 23:33:11] ektony [CONDI]: it’s about setting the precent that our deals cannot be trusted
[04/03/15 23:33:33] ektony [CONDI]: i’m sure you wouldn’t want to deal with space people whose agreements you cannot trust
[04/03/15 23:34:00] ektony [CONDI]: that’s just doing bad business
[04/03/15 23:34:19] Da Winci [CO2]: okay, that is it then. You make a deal above our head that directly invoves us. Then say to us that your hands are tied because of said agreement
[04/03/15 23:34:37] Da Winci [CO2]: now thats what I call a precedent
[04/03/15 23:35:33] Da Winci [CO2]: Frankly, I havent seen xix go all-out to protect CFC assets the way CO2 does
[04/03/15 23:36:49] Da Winci [CO2]: well maybe mittens and Sion think i'm a naive small fish here
[04/03/15 23:37:03] Da Winci [CO2]: but I get the message loud and clear
[04/03/15 23:37:11] ektony [CONDI]: i understand you feel unhappy about that decision as did I (on personal level)
[04/03/15 23:37:21] Da Winci [CO2]: so, i'll just shut up about it
[04/03/15 23:37:34] ektony [CONDI]: it’s not about choosing XIX vs CO2
[04/03/15 23:37:44] Da Winci [CO2]: no use in fighting giants here
[04/03/15 23:38:16] Da Winci [CO2]: goodnight guys, my eyes hurt and I need some sleep
[04/03/15 23:38:52] ektony [CONDI]: get some rest, and have a good night

Fozziesov devblog hits, entire coalition is thrown into overdrive trying to figure out the enormous implications it has for our happy crew. Entire coalition except CO2, which was more concerned about the war they’d started in the drone regions. So, more on that. March 5th, 2015:

[05/03/15 00:10:52] ektony [CONDI]: Da Winci: Oasa tower we talked about wasn’t actually untowered? :\
[05/03/15 00:34:25] blawrf [CONDI]: i told you all in the beginning that this was a co2 campaign
[05/03/15 00:34:36] blawrf [CONDI]: that your efforts in perrigen were not under the cfc aegis and could not guarentee cfc support
[05/03/15 00:34:56] blawrf [CONDI]: i'm frankly a little pissed off that once again my words have been twisted
[05/03/15 00:35:08] blawrf [CONDI]: and i'm running out of patience with it
[05/03/15 00:38:15] blawrf [CONDI]: sleep well.
[05/03/15 09:18:42] Da Winci [CO2]: Pissed off about 'once again' ?? Losing patience ??  Wanna go over it step by step on comms maybe? Let's do that. And please do bring everyone involved so we can have a frank conversation on the subject.
[05/03/15 11:36:59] blawrf [CONDI]: yes, once again. this is the third or fourth time my words on this subject have been questioned and twisted
[05/03/15 11:37:09] blawrf [CONDI]: so i think you can probably understand, winci, why i'm "losing patience"
[05/03/15 11:38:22] blawrf [CONDI]: we've just had a huge sov blog drop that changes the entire layout of the bloody game and you're focusing on a silly feud with XIX
[05/03/15 11:39:10] Da Winci [CO2]: As I do hope you understand that CO2 has been exemplary every time someone call on us. And I personally expected more than a token "we're not getting involved". Not even on harpy level
[05/03/15 11:39:26] blawrf [CONDI]: ofcourse i understand that, as YOU well understand that i'm the person who makes sure that is known
[05/03/15 11:39:58] blawrf [CONDI]: the reason we took MTO was to deny it from NC/BL
[05/03/15 11:40:09] blawrf [CONDI]: XIX is, for all intents and purposes, an "ally" - they're not an enemy, at the very least
[05/03/15 11:40:19] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: herrrrmmmmmmm
[05/03/15 11:40:25] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: NCdot is blue with them still
[05/03/15 11:40:33] blawrf [CONDI]: i'm well aware, ya
[05/03/15 11:40:35] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: means they can dock in MTO2 if death takes it
[05/03/15 11:40:45] blawrf [CONDI]: and if death allows that, death knows we'll roll geminate
[05/03/15 11:41:05] Da Winci [CO2]: would we?
[05/03/15 11:41:09] blawrf [CONDI]: yes.
[05/03/15 11:41:32] Da Winci [CO2]: that can be sorted, we'll just evac MTO2 then, speed up things
[05/03/15 11:42:10] Da Winci [CO2]: but with the new sov changes ahead, same reasoning as above, I dont think we'd bother rolling Geminate
[05/03/15 11:42:15] blawrf [CONDI]: i've been waiting for the moment i can take shit to mittani and say "look, xix are buddying up with NCdot to assault Vale"
[05/03/15 11:42:45] Da Winci [CO2]: that is the whole point of keeping them busy up here
[05/03/15 11:43:11] blawrf [CONDI]: i thought you wanted the perrigen pocket?
[05/03/15 11:43:17] blawrf [CONDI]: i was under the impression that was the point of your campaign
[05/03/15 11:43:50] Da Winci [CO2]: yep, and holding it prevents XiX any desire to to stuff in Vale
[05/03/15 11:44:01] Da Winci [CO2]: *to do
[05/03/15 11:44:03] blawrf [CONDI]: XIX can't hit Vale as part of our agreement
[05/03/15 11:44:17] Da Winci [CO2]: but can hit CO2 sov in PF ?
[05/03/15 11:44:26] blawrf [CONDI]: not part of the agreement, never was
[05/03/15 11:44:39] blawrf [CONDI]: the agreement was made before, included CFC assets in CFC home regions and XIX assets
[05/03/15 11:44:45] blawrf [CONDI]: XIX/Shadow of Death assets
[05/03/15 11:44:57] Da Winci [CO2]: so why they reffed like everything in MTO2 last night including SBU'ing it?
[05/03/15 11:45:02] blawrf [CONDI]: then expanded to just cover a general NIP between the two blocs
[05/03/15 11:45:10] blawrf [CONDI]: because that's not part of the deal, MTO is not situated in a CFC home region
[05/03/15 11:45:17] blawrf [CONDI]: i'm not sure i understand why this is tricky
[05/03/15 11:46:37] Da Winci [CO2]: so would CO2 have been good and stayed home MTO2 would still have been fair game for XiX ?
[05/03/15 11:46:55] blawrf [CONDI]: would have been good? don't use loaded terminology to try to spin this as me slapping your wrist
[05/03/15 11:46:56] blawrf [CONDI]: that's silly
[05/03/15 11:47:11] blawrf [CONDI]: if CO2 hadn't of drawn attention to their Perrigen pocket then there is an argument that XIX wouldn't have cared, ya
[05/03/15 11:47:23] blawrf [CONDI]: still fair game
[05/03/15 11:47:46] Da Winci [CO2]: I can see that it comes across as me spinning. I'm smart enough not to spin things with you and CD
[05/03/15 11:47:54] Da Winci [CO2]: that is above my paygrade
[05/03/15 11:48:14] blawrf [CONDI]: i'm trying to talk plainly to you here, winci
[05/03/15 11:48:36] Da Winci [CO2]: I'm just trying to get across how this comes over to CO2 and CO2 leadership
[05/03/15 11:49:26] blawrf [CONDI]: yes, i know, but you were told in the beginning that this was a co2 enterprise and i could not guarantee CFC aegis/support - as if you were taking lowsec moons.
[05/03/15 11:49:41] blawrf [CONDI]: the only reason we were able to spin your campaign with death is because we hate ABS.A and TT more than anyone else
[05/03/15 11:49:53] blawrf [CONDI]: because White Noise declared they were going to kill us so yeah sure co2, go cause havoc
[05/03/15 11:50:31] blawrf [CONDI]: please understand that if the CFC deploys to MTO and defends, this has potential to turn into a bloc war
[05/03/15 11:50:43] blawrf [CONDI]: which no-one, NOT ANYONE needs right now, in the very least with our frenemies in XIX
[05/03/15 11:51:18] Da Winci [CO2]: exactly and killed a titan from us. Are blue with NC. and seem to have carte blanche towards CO2 in PF
[05/03/15 11:52:17] blawrf [CONDI]: you took sixteen systems from them, killed countless billions worth of infrastructure, forced a disagreement between XIX and TT and made XIX deploy supers & assets to come and defend their rental empire in PF
[05/03/15 11:52:24] blawrf [CONDI]: isn't that a pretty fucking sweet justification of co2's ability?
[05/03/15 11:53:06] Da Winci [CO2]: oh yes it. And to wave some smugness around, havent seen anyone do it in ages
[05/03/15 11:53:13] blawrf [CONDI]: think of this strategically, too
[05/03/15 11:53:25] blawrf [CONDI]: we have a relatively secure eastern border with death. there are some skirmishes, some disagreements - some major, like this one
[05/03/15 11:53:38] blawrf [CONDI]: but all in all death is our chum, there's a LOT of history between mittani and him going back years and years
[05/03/15 11:54:05] blawrf [CONDI]: i'm not sure i think prodding holes in the relationship is a good idea
[05/03/15 11:54:56] Da Winci [CO2]: my take? Let those chum then make an agreement that we are allowed to keep the MTO2 constellation uncontested. We'll put up a token fight for the others
[05/03/15 11:55:52] blawrf [CONDI]: hit ektony up with that, see what he thinks - that sort of thing isn't my wheelbox
[05/03/15 11:56:04] Da Winci [CO2]: give that 2 weeks, they claim victory for taking the 2 other constellations, we keep the MTO2 one. Case closed and onxards to the sov revamp
[05/03/15 11:57:00] Da Winci [CO2]: it's not your turf, but you being in favor is more than helpfu
[05/03/15 11:57:10] Da Winci [CO2]: *helpful
[05/03/15 11:57:46] blawrf [CONDI]: i don't mind which way this goes, really, MTO is relatively safe whoever holds it.
[05/03/15 11:57:53] blawrf [CONDI]: with that in mind i'll counsel looking into this deal
[05/03/15 12:00:43] Da Winci [CO2]: that would be appreciated - MTO2 constellation stays CO2, we'll cede the rest

Same day, a bit later. The only reason I’m including this full log is because I’m still amused by this particular line “though to be fair to razor, at no point did razor tell us we were bad allies for not doing what we said we weren't going to do.” The context for those who don’t wish to read the full log is that CO2 had violated our temporary agreement with XIX, and put our entire eastern border in jeopardy. Again, rather than thinking about how their actions would impact the whole of the coalition, they were laser focused on only their own needs. On the eve of Fozziesov. I trust my irritation comes through in the log as well. Nor will this be the last time Gigx’s weird fascination and grudge for hitting XIX features is a thing.

4:12:15 AM da_winci [CO2]: (5-3-2015 0:31:27) Blawrf McTaggart: you can be shitty with me if you wish but i told you that at the beginning

(11:04:18) Da Winci [CO2]: I'm not trying to be shitty

(11:05:28) Da Winci [CO2]: context: just had eye surgery - came back and gigX took that XiX tower. Understandebly, but a nonetheless a questionable decision

(11:06:15) Da Winci [CO2]: next I know there is a revised agrement (good) without the allied party involved (not good)

(11:07:29) Da Winci [CO2]: and right after the revised agreement (in which I read and got confirmed XiX is not to shoot CFC structures) XiX comes into MTO2 and shoots basically everything

(11:08:15) Da Winci [CO2]: I let you guys know and get as answer "we are not getting involved"

(11:09:10) Da Winci [CO2]: so I dont wish to be shitty, I just feel let down by our allies

(11:10:18) Da Winci [CO2]: I stating that comes across as being shitty that is not my intention. We only need to feel  supported by our coalition

(11:10:41) Da Winci [CO2]: *if stating
4:15:45 AM da_winci [CO2]: furthermore, and I'll completely drop the subject after this, I personally feel that XiX comes out as the one getting carte blanche towards CO2 in PF.  I get that PF is to no value or interest of CONDI or the CFC. I just assumed when making an agreement on behalf of the CFC we as a member alliance would have come out at least even.
7:03:48 AM sion_kumitomo: what
7:04:08 AM sion_kumitomo: do you not remember talking about exactly this with me just a few days ago?
7:04:39 AM sion_kumitomo: 8:08:38 AM da_winci [CO2]: but's it's cool, I understand that technically we could go on take sov from Abso (though it would be dumb to do so) and we can expect xix to retaliate over this and have to deal with that alone

8:09:01 AM da_winci [CO2]: that about sums it up right?
7:05:18 AM sion_kumitomo: you seemed to not care about dealing with it alone then, so what gives
7:07:53 AM da_winci [CO2]: thats why i'll drop it. Somehow I assumed them attacking MTO2 all out would spark a reaction. In our reading of the new agreement they are not allowed to do that
7:08:05 AM sion_kumitomo: 7:57:22 AM sion_kumitomo: probably, with solar gone. and yeah, drone regions aren't covered by this as it isn't considered cfc territory

7:58:06 AM sion_kumitomo: so while we can't shoot xix moons or whatever in pf, they can shoot ours
7:08:26 AM sion_kumitomo: mto=drone regions
7:09:38 AM da_winci [CO2]: like I said, thats why I'll drop it.  This is above my paygrade now
7:11:18 AM da_winci [CO2]: I'll stay with the feeling that XiX got carte blanche on this now. And yes, that was said earlier that could happen.  Just assumed we would get a better deal out of it
7:11:50 AM sion_kumitomo: blawrf told you at the outset of this little excursion of yours that you wouldn't necessarily be able to count on coalition support. mittani has made it very clear, repeatedly, that the drone regions aren't cfc space. razor found this out when they took CE, too
7:12:25 AM sion_kumitomo: though to be fair to razor, at no point did razor tell us we were bad allies for not doing what we said we weren't going to do
7:12:32 AM da_winci [CO2]: like MTO2 constellation is CO2 - we'll put up a token fight over the others - cede the other constellations - high fives and every one happy
7:13:09 AM sion_kumitomo: alright, well, best of luck
7:13:52 AM da_winci [CO2]: like I said, dropping it, above my paygrade here
7:13:58 AM sion_kumitomo: we're still not getting involved. not sure if you've noticed or not, but there's a new sov devblog out that has rather large implications on space and the coalition as a whole
7:14:13 AM sion_kumitomo: that's a big deal
7:14:23 AM da_winci [CO2]: I did, leadership meeting tonight on that
7:14:41 AM sion_kumitomo: furthermore, the next time you tell me that you have a transferred a tower, you better damn well have done so
7:15:46 AM da_winci [CO2]: afaik that was sorted. And confirmed when I got confirmation it was sorted
7:15:47 AM sion_kumitomo: there was a minor diplomatic blowup last night when xix went to a tower I told them you said you had transferred, and then gigx showed up in local along with one of your sabres as they were knocking it down. that is /extremely/ poor form
7:16:38 AM sion_kumitomo: well I don't know who you got confirmation from, but it wasn't sorted. tower was still there, and had ektony not intervened, it would have blown up into a full-fledged diplomatic incident
7:17:08 AM da_winci [CO2]: that is on gigX - I try, as always, to get things sorted so nobody can tell me I'm talking bs
7:17:24 AM sion_kumitomo: that's bullshit
7:18:32 AM sion_kumitomo: you told me this morning that you're mad about 'being abandoned by the coalition" right after you got done telling me that you were happy to go it alone
7:19:00 AM sion_kumitomo: you tell me a tower is down when it isn't, and then co2 harasses the people that you told me the moon had been turned over to
7:19:17 AM sion_kumitomo: I am not impressed
7:20:06 AM da_winci [CO2]: I don't take down towers myself. When I ask people who should do it and they say they are on it I assume they are.
7:20:28 AM da_winci [CO2]: I discussed with gigX the fact that he should cede that tower
7:20:57 AM da_winci [CO2]: that in itself is a major feat.  - Ie. calling gigX off that
7:20:57 AM sion_kumitomo: who did you ask?
7:21:42 AM da_winci [CO2]: no clue, gigX prolly did - I got confirmation from him we would cede the tower
7:22:23 AM sion_kumitomo: 7:54:11 AM da_winci [CO2]: we will put a halt to further sov gain for now. And give back the moon to XiX.  And yes, except for 4-1 we reached our objective anyway
7:22:35 AM sion_kumitomo: this didn't happen
7:22:43 AM sion_kumitomo: that's a big deal
7:23:03 AM da_winci [CO2]: we didnt take any more sov
7:23:13 AM sion_kumitomo: nor did you give back the moon
7:24:15 AM sion_kumitomo: this is not 'above your paygrade,' your the head diplomat for co2, and your diplomatic credibility is not particularly high right now
7:25:01 AM sion_kumitomo: which means that when deals are being hammered out with xix, they get to say things like "you agreed to turn over the moon, said you did, but then you didn't and instead harassed our fleet. why should we negotiate favorably?"
7:25:23 AM sion_kumitomo: actions have consequences, and so do words
7:25:55 AM da_winci [CO2]: when was that harassing fleet?
7:26:37 AM sion_kumitomo: last night, and not a fleet. as I said, gigx personally and one of your sabre pilots
7:27:20 AM sion_kumitomo: you can understand how this looks, I'm sure, when you've agreed to do something, don't do it, and then your leader goes out of his way to "scare" them or whatever
7:27:37 AM da_winci [CO2]: then you really should take that particular fact up with gigX - we agreed to cede the moon to XiX and i got confirmation it was being done
7:28:30 AM da_winci [CO2]: if gigX then decides to go harass them - I really cannot follow him around 24/7
7:28:42 AM sion_kumitomo: confirmation from who?
7:28:51 AM da_winci [CO2]: and trust me I was already frustrated as hell over him going to take it
7:28:59 AM da_winci [CO2]: confrimation from gigX
7:29:41 AM sion_kumitomo: alright, well, I have zero desire to get pulled into gigx's grudge match with xix. particularly on the eve of major sov revamp
7:29:56 AM da_winci [CO2]: exactly what I told him
7:30:05 AM sion_kumitomo: and I'm not going to allow gsf to be played by ham-handed stunts to try to force our involvement either
7:30:32 AM da_winci [CO2]: exactly what I said
7:31:01 AM sion_kumitomo: so don't fucking play the victim card about being 'abandoned by the coalition' when this is the kind of bullshit that's going on
7:32:21 AM da_winci [CO2]: I play the card that the situation has left me with
7:32:34 AM sion_kumitomo: anyway, I'm going to consider this incident resolved, and that the issue is now clear. and yes, I understand that the treaty itself isn't very clear. that's waiting on mittani and death to link up, and not something I can rush
7:33:05 AM sion_kumitomo: in the meantime, we're going to be planning for the future of the coalition under ccp's dumb-ass new sov system

And once again we found ourselves fighting in Fountain, and once again CO2 decided not to join us. First they claimed they were worn out from fighting in the drone regions, then Blawrf got the truth from Seb--CO2 was mad that we didn’t protect a thing we said we weren’t going to protect, MTO, or get dragged into their XIX grudge match. So they opted not to show up to defend the coalition. That and they felt like they hadn’t gotten enough stuff in payment for their services to the coalition. This was also when we first started hearing rumors about Gigx talking about resetting the coalition from some of his alliance members. March 28, 2015.

(9:07:18 PM) blawrf_mctaggart: uh
(9:07:19 PM) blawrf_mctaggart: Sebastien Saintfrusquin:
(9:09:40 PM) kippig: heh snuff did go to hakonen afterall
(9:09:53 PM) blawrf_mctaggart: i have several hundred questions about a) hakonen  hakonen c) hakonen d) why are co2 up north when we're invading delve as a coalition e) hakonen
(9:10:00 PM) blawrf_mctaggart: f) why we lost that much shit when you were forewarned
(9:13:00 PM) isphirel: i bet half of the answers are going to be "gigx"
(9:13:46 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: for the non-d) questions:
(9:13:55 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: 22:05 Sebastien Saintfrusquin gigx is in one of his moods
22:06 Sebastien Saintfrusquin not going to even pretend to care, I took one of the SRP dreads for it anyway, not my own
(9:14:11 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: for the d) question:
(9:14:15 PM) isphirel: I KNEW
(9:14:38 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: we only deployed the USTZ in fountain, and only recently at that
(9:15:07 PM) blawrf_mctaggart: why?
(9:15:16 PM) blawrf_mctaggart: this campaign is counting toward coalition participation etc
(9:15:20 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: oh yes
(9:15:44 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: well
(9:16:27 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: fatigue from perrigen
(9:17:06 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: complete lack of motivation from coalition campaigns that have mostly provided us nothing as rewards in the last instances
(9:17:42 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: and lot of ill will against the coalition for not defending our pride and joy, MTO2-2
(9:17:50 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: does that answer your question ?
(9:17:58 PM) blawrf_mctaggart: it answers more than i ever asked, yeah.
(9:18:05 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: cool
(9:18:10 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: well I'm in Fountain myself
(9:18:23 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: so do give the 24 hours notice before resetting us !

By the first week of April, plans were well underway to abandon our southern holdings. Plans hadn’t yet been solidified, but it was clear that we would have to rehome multiple alliances. For the first time in our history, the newly minted Imperium would not be gaining assets from a war to divide. We’d be losing assets, and losing space. Some alliances, such as Bastion, were particularly generous in offering up their space to the newly homeless. CO2 was not one of those alliances. While we were in the process of giving up four regions, CO2 busily made the case for why they should own Tribute. I wish I were exaggerating. TheJudge,  April 7th, 2015.

Part of what I worry about it being cut off at the knees as it were on growth potential. The main things I look at for this is the ISK that can come from the systems we would hold, and the more worrying theory that we will be put in the same situation that we have had for the last 12-18 months where we push for activity in deployments from our members, but are openly told that there will be no sov gain in our future in Tribute

Stability ties into the isk thing, sure... but it also means ratting possibilities for our member corps and their happiness. Unhappy corps leave. A huge part for the "stability" for me also counts on who we live next to. At the moment I personally cant count on TNT or BASTN to come to our aid should we need it if shit goes south, which is something I would like to fix with whoever we live with post fozzie-sov.

Ease is rather simple. Shared ratting rights for me have always caused more diplo drama and tension between allies for example.

And of course, it all goes back to the fact that this reshuffle will more likely than not stick with us for at least a few years, so I would like to make 100% sure we are happy where we are sitting at the end of it.
Honestly, other than goons themselves dropping numbers on something, we have shown time and time again that we can pull our weight and defend. We are more than confident that we would be able to both live in and defend those constellations
Pre-fozziesov we are going to reshuffle corp locations within our sov, because really you want all that sorted before anything changes

H-W of course still being the central staging, because it is so centered to Tribute

GIH constellation for example is prime for our two indy corps, since mining will also help with defenders stats

TZ window will of course be EU since that is our strongest timezone, as well as the timezone where we can have our best FCs online

The jump bridges may change some, but even at this point in our plans, you would never be more than 3 jumps from getting to the system which is being attacked

Of course our ever growing super and titan numbers help with any of the venal people, at the moment OOS+TT, who would try and poke at something closer to the top of the held sov on that screenshot

The main thing we have going for us is active people. We dont have dead weight. Every system on that screenshot we can have people living in with no problem

For example, one of our corps Capital Fusion (EUTZ) have already made it known that they want to live in FY0W-N, which has great jump range to two constellations, as well as their corp being back to protect the lowsec entry point M-OEE8 from what I assume is going to be some pretty heavy traffic

We dont want to wait until the sov change to have everything set up. Systems that need to be upgraded will be done before fozziesov, as well as a complete corp reshuffle and most likely a jump bridge rework

We have the numbers, we have the activity and we have the leadership. I have no doubts whatsoever.
I guess all I can really say is we have never shown that we couldnt defend our space, or others space like Bastion or Gents when asked to help. If anything, I believe we have shown we are more than strong enough to take on the systems I linked

This log is amusing in hindsight, now that CO2 is actively repeating these talking points. April 12th, 2015.

17:25:54 Da Winci: I was approached by Wargod yesterday
17:26:14 ektony_: from TRI?
17:26:27 Da Winci: with the very clear request of backstabbing goons
17:26:34 ektony_:
17:26:43 Da Winci: yes, the  Wargod
17:26:52 ektony_: do you have logs for maximum
17:27:00 ektony_:
17:27:20 Da Winci: nope, that part of the convo was on our TS
17:27:24 ektony_: ok
17:27:28 ektony_: maybe tldr then?
17:28:03 Da Winci: he tried to convince me that "Goons are using us"
17:28:22 Da Winci: as a meatshield between Gem and Dekl
17:29:00 Da Winci: and that their goal was to breach through XiX sov towards Vale
17:29:26 ektony_: so they want Gem and Vale?
17:30:20 Da Winci: that is what he said yes
17:31:11 ektony_: so they want your support to push GemCo?
17:31:38 Da Winci: lol
17:31:49 Da Winci: I sent him walking
17:31:57 ektony_: still pretty funny
17:32:05 ektony_: that he'd think this would actually work
17:32:17 Da Winci: we already had a similar offer from Solar during the PF campaign
17:32:50 Da Winci: and I refused any co-op because of TRI

The entirety of April’s logs are full of Da Winci and Thejudge trying to get as much of Tribute as possible, saying TNT doesn’t deserve it, and that oh yes CO2 would like Vale space as well. There’s a lot of logs on all of those points, but it’s nothing that hasn’t already been put on display with regards for their grasping greedy hands so use your imagination. Eventually, we hit upon the idea of moving TNT out of Dek to spread our population density out a bit more to keep index levels up. This started the next round of CO2 angst, and they promptly decided that it wasn’t just CD and GSOL that were evil, but TNT was too. Again, this was after we gave up four regions and folded one alliance. And still, CO2 wanted more. Indeed, they wanted all of Tribute. April 20th, 2015.

[4/20/15, 6:13:16 PM] The Judge [CO2]: :poke:
[4/20/15, 6:13:32 PM] ektony [CONDI]: Hey
[4/20/15, 6:13:39 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Howdy
[4/20/15, 6:13:44 PM] The Judge [CO2]: How did the move go
[4/20/15, 6:14:07 PM] ektony [CONDI]: Which move?
[4/20/15, 6:14:13 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Timezones
[4/20/15, 6:14:23 PM] ektony [CONDI]: oh my U.S. move
[4/20/15, 6:14:31 PM] ektony [CONDI]: That was last week
[4/20/15, 6:14:40 PM] The Judge [CO2]: I havent really talked to you since then!
[4/20/15, 6:14:46 PM] ektony [CONDI]: I think we talked after that
[4/20/15, 6:14:50 PM] ektony [CONDI]: Or maybe we didnt
[4/20/15, 6:15:00 PM] ektony [CONDI]: Well now we are
[4/20/15, 6:15:14 PM] ektony [CONDI]: 6pm here
[4/20/15, 6:16:00 PM] ektony [CONDI]: I did actually talk to DW quite a lot in last week, so TZ didn't really change a thing
[4/20/15, 6:16:26 PM] ektony [CONDI]: Saw there were some Brave hubris over the weekend
[4/20/15, 6:23:57 PM] The Judge [CO2]: A little
[4/20/15, 6:24:12 PM] The Judge [CO2]: So
[4/20/15, 6:24:35 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Is it safe to assume you are up to date with the discussion I had with viktor last night?
[4/20/15, 6:25:21 PM] ektony [CONDI]: I am
[4/20/15, 6:25:54 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Thats good, saves the update
[4/20/15, 6:26:05 PM] ektony [CONDI]: DW left me some pretty cryptic messages during the night
[4/20/15, 6:26:45 PM] The Judge [CO2]: I am aware of the messages... He has sent me in to bat on this while he sleeps
[4/20/15, 6:27:01 PM] ektony [CONDI]: Ok
[4/20/15, 6:27:17 PM] ektony [CONDI]: So let's talk about what he left for me
[4/20/15, 6:27:27 PM] ektony [CONDI]: Because I didn't really get the logic
[4/20/15, 6:28:03 PM] The Judge [CO2]: What do you not understand? Maybe we can start there.
[4/20/15, 6:28:42 PM] ektony [CONDI]: so they dont want to cram 2000 people in 3 constellations?
and assume we will cram 3000+ in the same amount of space (less systems even)
taking into account we just took the better part of FA cap fleet in?
and they also assume to have shared ratting rights?
i'm gonna sleep on this, but I think we will have to sit down and talk this through
[4/20/15, 6:28:47 PM] ektony [CONDI]: this is what he sent me
[4/20/15, 6:29:00 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Yes
[4/20/15, 6:30:11 PM] The Judge [CO2]: and?
[4/20/15, 6:30:44 PM] ektony [CONDI]: first of all, this is not TNT / CO2 competition
[4/20/15, 6:30:52 PM] ektony [CONDI]: with that said
[4/20/15, 6:31:32 PM] ektony [CONDI]: proposal was sketched before FA started collapsing
[4/20/15, 6:32:36 PM] ektony [CONDI]: i have a better one now (sun)
[4/20/15, 6:32:50 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Hit me with it then
[4/20/15, 6:33:31 PM] ektony [CONDI]: +10 systems with 2 stations, contiguous space, pretty good sec status
[4/20/15, 6:33:59 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Can you give me the proposed constellation list please?
[4/20/15, 6:34:18 PM] ektony [CONDI]: most importantly contiguous space since you guys don’t seem to care about ratting anyway v0v
[4/20/15, 6:34:30 PM] ektony [CONDI]: basically this http://evemaps.dotla...lent/Z-DO53#sec
[4/20/15, 6:35:26 PM] ektony [CONDI]: that would bring CO2 footprint to 24 or 25 systems
[4/20/15, 6:35:54 PM] ektony [CONDI]: sorry 24 + 10 = 34
[4/20/15, 6:36:26 PM] ektony [CONDI]: thoughts?
[4/20/15, 6:37:12 PM] The Judge [CO2]: I think we were pretty clear with our goals, being Tribute.
[4/20/15, 6:40:15 PM] ektony [CONDI]: I get why relocation is not a good thing for you, so we can just forget about that
[4/20/15, 6:40:45 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Honestly, I am feeling a little insulted. We have been very open and clear that we have a hard rule that we want to live in Tribute. With the outline we were given by viktor last night (which I understand you say was "scrapped"), TNT is building a great wall of china to keep themselves secure (INIT on PB side, CO2 on the busy Tribute side).
[4/20/15, 6:41:11 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Not to mention the 1000+ members, majority of FAs super and capital fleet ect that we are now trying to give a home
[4/20/15, 6:41:45 PM] ektony [CONDI]: from the beginning of fozziesov talks CO2 wanted busier part of Tribute to consolidate
[4/20/15, 6:41:56 PM] ektony [CONDI]: i’m not seeing how this is suddenly a bad thing
[4/20/15, 6:42:53 PM] The Judge [CO2]: It wouldnt be, should we be given what we have asked for
[4/20/15, 6:45:24 PM] The Judge [CO2]: I can live with being next to TNT, dont get me wrong (even though I did mention they were lowest on our list). But I am feeling as if you are not taking into account our value, and that leaves me feeling insulted.
[4/20/15, 6:46:36 PM] ektony [CONDI]: once again, 1000 members is a sudden adjustment in everyone’s plans, I doubt that anyone actually thought FA is going to collapse like this; now since it happened we need to adjust — I’m offering you all the consolidated space that we’ve always talked about, plus I’m giving you a 30% increase in space footprint for your newly expanded membership to live in
[4/20/15, 6:47:07 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Space outside Tribute, which is not what we are interested in.
[4/20/15, 6:47:42 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Which also means, what I assume, is that you want us to also give up the GIH constellation in this proposal
[4/20/15, 6:49:53 PM] ektony [CONDI]: two question then
[4/20/15, 6:50:30 PM] ektony [CONDI]: a) why having all of the Tribute is required for CO2 well-being and  why do you see Vale so terrible that you feel it’s almost an insult to CO2 to get it?
[4/20/15, 6:50:50 PM] ektony [CONDI]: just want to get your opinion on this
[4/20/15, 6:51:14 PM] ektony [CONDI]: emotional reasons? financial reasons? something else entirely?
[4/20/15, 6:53:53 PM] The Judge [CO2]: We made it clear from day one, when we first took GIH constellation (which we put the stations in) that we wanted to grow into Tribute. We made it our home after moving out of Venal. For the last 18 months we have bitten the bullet of having the lowest number of sov systems within the CFC, while still keeping up and growing our statistics and numbers.
[4/20/15, 6:55:10 PM] The Judge [CO2]: At the point we first started discussing sov, I felt we had a pretty good claim to the outline I gave you. We both know CO2 could defend that before taking in so much of FA... and now, the arguement of not having enough military might is out the window.
[4/20/15, 6:56:00 PM] The Judge [CO2]: So, yes. All of those reasons.
[4/20/15, 6:56:35 PM] The Judge [CO2]: We made this our home, financially we have a lot invested, and we have a lot set up already
[4/20/15, 6:57:15 PM] The Judge [CO2]: This has all been clear since the day we moved into tribute and owned one constellation all those years ago
[4/20/15, 6:58:08 PM] The Judge [CO2]: You can see, how after all this time that we have worked our butts off, that we would feel a bit insulted by these proposals.
[4/20/15, 6:59:08 PM] The Judge [CO2]: We want to secure our corps, keep a high retention, and continue growing and helping our coalition.
[4/20/15, 6:59:09 PM] ektony [CONDI]: I can assure you that pragmatism is the only driving force that I have, most definitely an attempt to insult anyone
[4/20/15, 7:00:04 PM] ektony [CONDI]: now, I’m not aware of any agreements back in the day to make Tribute exclusive for you, but if such an agreement was made, I’d like to know asap
[4/20/15, 7:02:08 PM] ektony [CONDI]: three important things that were communicated were a) you want to retain your foothold in Tribute (which you will) because of emotional attachment  you want to consolidate your space (which you will) and c) you want more sov for your membership to grow (which you also will; mind you, you’re growing when most of coalition shrinks right now)
[4/20/15, 7:05:18 PM] ektony [CONDI]: i could probably carve some more of Vale space
[4/20/15, 7:05:38 PM] ektony [CONDI]: in addition to those 9 or 10 systems mentioned above
[4/20/15, 7:05:50 PM] The Judge [CO2]: We exactly are we being pushed towards vale, and not TNT towards PB?
[4/20/15, 7:06:40 PM] ektony [CONDI]: pushed? you’re consolidating most of your space in Tribute
[4/20/15, 7:08:01 PM] ektony [CONDI]: Da Winci outright rejected idea of relocation; as soon as he did, I dropped that idea completely
[4/20/15, 7:08:30 PM] ektony [CONDI]: in general, if we have a choice, we’d rather hold Vale space and not PB space
[4/20/15, 7:09:47 PM] The Judge [CO2]: After 18 months of attempting to negotiate move sov in Tribute, and being told nobody will have any sov movement until some massive happens, while also being a top participating alliance within the CFC who as Vee says "can always be counted on", while also having some of the lowest sov numbers within the whole coalition, something massive (fozziesov) does happen and we are finally pushing for what we see is fair (and honestly with so much of FA joining, some argued for more).
[4/20/15, 7:09:50 PM] ektony [CONDI]: you can expand into Vale and TNT cannot into PB. even if they could, Vale > PB anyway, CO2 would be getter better space
[4/20/15, 7:11:06 PM] The Judge [CO2]: I find it hard to understand why we are being asked to negotiate out of Tribute sov, when this whole time we have been the alliance living here, defending the space, and making it well known we wanted to expand further into Tribute.
[4/20/15, 7:11:24 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Does that seem fair to you?
[4/20/15, 7:22:08 PM] ektony [CONDI]: fair? we’re dropping huge chunks of space with no intention of redistributing that to our allies, I don’t think that’s fair either. and you come on top of this situation with new members in your alliance and more space than you had before to accomodate them while most of our allies shrink in terms of space
[4/20/15, 7:23:24 PM] ektony [CONDI]: we’ve always had sov discussions ending with “why CO2 isn’t getting more space”, now I’m offering you quite a sizable chunk of good space with a possibility to give out even more
[4/20/15, 7:24:25 PM] ektony [CONDI]: because yes, like you said, you’ve had pretty amazing performance historically wise and CO2 should be rewarded for that, especially now when we’re losing space and not making space
[4/20/15, 7:24:41 PM] ektony [CONDI]: why is this not a good thing?
[4/20/15, 7:27:23 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Lets put aside the fact that our ambitions have only ever, and likely will only ever lay in Tribute
[4/20/15, 7:27:49 PM] The Judge [CO2]: (and this is by no means agreeing to anything, I am just laying it out)
[4/20/15, 7:27:55 PM] ektony [CONDI]: ok
[4/20/15, 7:30:18 PM] The Judge [CO2]: You are offering us to cede 03C-5U, somewhere we have huge amounts of isk invested, as well as being our only Industry centre in Tribute, and in return offer Z-DO53 (vale) which is a regional contellation into lowsec, with TERRIBLE jump range to our staging in Tribute
[4/20/15, 7:31:14 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Sounds like a headache to me
[4/20/15, 7:33:18 PM] ektony [CONDI]: last time we discussed stagings, Da Winci mentioned your plan was to spread caches across, plus it’s only one gate away from MSHD
[4/20/15, 7:33:57 PM] ektony [CONDI]: regarding promixity to lowsec, I don’t get that at all — Trib has entries from lowsec and nullsec as well and CO2 never saw that as an issue
[4/20/15, 7:34:01 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Not to mention after fozziesov, splitting our alliance over two regions like that defeats the whole purpose of what we are doing
[4/20/15, 7:34:14 PM] ektony [CONDI]: it’s contingent space
[4/20/15, 7:34:42 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Its not an issue, when you have one of them... not two.
[4/20/15, 7:34:45 PM] ektony [CONDI]: which is the only important point
[4/20/15, 7:35:42 PM] The Judge [CO2]: ektony, we stage in the dead center of tribute. I can see how you might think vale sov is a good idea, but for us it is a little more than a hard sell
[4/20/15, 7:35:58 PM] The Judge [CO2]: It is unrealistic
[4/20/15, 7:36:33 PM] The Judge [CO2]: If you were here when we had to save GENTS, then you would understand my problems with this proposal.
[4/20/15, 7:37:57 PM] ektony [CONDI]: maybe you could expand on this a bit?
[4/20/15, 7:41:03 PM] ektony [CONDI]: and going back to jump range… yes, you’re right — prefozzie sov that was the case, now with the nerf gates became more important, and these patches of space are directly connected with regional gates
[4/20/15, 7:42:00 PM] The Judge [CO2]: It would be attempting to defend two fronts from lowsec (which after fozziesov will have heavy traffic) while not being consolidated at all in terms of defence.
[4/20/15, 7:43:03 PM] ektony [CONDI]: all of the east Tribute will be consolidated as per initial plan
[4/20/15, 7:44:13 PM] ektony [CONDI]: if I’m missing important part of sov defence mechanics, i’d want to know what is that i’m not taking into account, because it’s not too late yet
[4/20/15, 7:45:27 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Harassment is one thing. That can be delt with by a small corp living near by. Actual attacks is totally different. You want to be able to drop the hammer.
[4/20/15, 7:45:39 PM] The Judge [CO2]: You cant do that with what you are proposing
[4/20/15, 7:46:03 PM] The Judge [CO2]: And more than that, it is not something we are interested in at all
[4/20/15, 7:47:10 PM] The Judge [CO2]: We are interested in staying in Tribute. Defending Tribute from H-W (the center of the region), and living in our sov with our members
[4/20/15, 7:48:25 PM] The Judge [CO2]: And at the end of the day, what we are asking for is not unrealistic for our statistics, in absolute numbers, super+capital force and participation
[4/20/15, 7:48:32 PM] ektony [CONDI]: OK, I’m gonna dash for dinner and have a long and hard thought about this.
[4/20/15, 7:48:53 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Good idea.


Ceding a system or two after allies had lost regions? An insult. April 21st, 2015

1:16:10 AM Da Winci: Howdy man
1:16:56 AM Da Winci: slept on it, woke up with the proposal you discussed with Judge and feel like sleeping again :-/
1:17:46 AM Da Winci: I dont find it reasonable to both cede GIH for basically nothing
1:18:20 AM Da Winci: the Vale constellation you propose is not a compensation for not having GIH or DBT
1:23:27 AM Da Winci: how is TNT's request that much more 'acceptable' or reasonable than ours?
1:26:14 AM Da Winci: I think I was very clear in holding either DBT or GIH - that would be the one 'couch-constellation' we'd have to concentrate industry in

 April 26th, 2015.

10:23:19 AM Da Winci: howdy
10:23:46 AM Da Winci: Wibla just told me they are going to announce the transfer to their CEO's
10:24:08 AM Da Winci: they finished their negotiations
10:24:22 AM Da Winci: can you bring me up to date on that?
10:25:08 AM Da Winci: because if so I need to do a very fast alliance meeting. Don't want my guys hearing it from some (news)channels
10:35:42 AM ektony_: hey
10:39:51 AM ektony_: just spoke to Wibla as well
10:42:31 AM ektony_: seems like he was slightly baffled by "negotiations are still ongoing" comment by the judge
10:43:48 AM ektony_: which is technically correct as we still need to work out Vale details, but that has nothing to do with TNT
10:56:03 AM Da Winci: i'd say the shared ratting rights have everything to do with TNT
10:56:29 AM Da Winci: you moved that to 'a later point' and was gonna talk to Wibla
10:56:43 AM Da Winci: I assume they are off the table
10:57:33 AM Da Winci: cause if I get word after their meeting it is said they'll have them I consider that twisting my arm
10:58:08 AM Da Winci: I will announce in 5min to my CEO's that it is not the case
10:58:48 AM Da Winci: the other points, fair enough, they do not concern TNT
11:05:06 AM ektony_: so now you're twisting my arm?
11:05:38 AM ektony_: i don't see anything too bad happening if TNT helps to bring your indexes up
11:05:46 AM Da Winci: nope, it seems Wibla has a package to announce
11:06:00 AM Da Winci: which wasnt agreed upon by me
11:06:22 AM Da Winci: that is twisting my arm
11:06:42 AM Da Winci: because  was very clear on that
11:07:30 AM Da Winci: anyway, my meeting is starting so that is what I'll announce
11:08:07 AM Da Winci: we are perfectly capable of keeping our own indexes up
11:08:43 AM ektony_: wibla is saying you guys haven't discussed ratting rights
11:09:02 AM ektony_: you're giving me literally 5 minute warning to make a decision
11:09:17 AM ektony_: saying i'm displeased with this is an understatement
11:09:48 AM Da Winci: no, not me man, Wibla announced this to me, forcing me to tell my guys
11:09:57 AM Da Winci: i'm not twisting, he is
11:10:06 AM Da Winci: dont put this in my shoes
11:14:35 AM ektony_: i think you're rushing it, wibla said he's going to mention sov part only
11:14:50 AM ektony_: not sure where you're getting "package" part from
11:14:53 AM Da Winci: so will I then
11:15:14 AM ektony_: without hashing it out with Wibla first?
11:16:01 AM ektony_: mentioning sov is fine
11:16:26 AM ektony_: wibla was aware that ratting was something we are still talking with you (and I know your feeling on it, too)
12:26:50 PM Da Winci: meeting done
12:27:08 PM Da Winci: only mentioned the sov cause thats a done deal
12:27:51 PM Da Winci: didn't go into the 4 and a half points still on the table
Since the rental empire wasn’t something we’d be able to run under Fozziesov, we did tentatively agree to give CO2 Vale space pending how Bastion and Lawn worked out. Shortly thereafter, before anything was finalized, CO2 pilots were caught buzzing Bastion space telling Bastion to get ready to move out since it would soon be CO2 space. This was exactly as fun as it sounds like to deal with. Shortly thereafter Gigx personally started shooting TNT pilots, which was also as fun as it sounds like to deal with and upset Wibla a great deal. Why? Because Wibla accepted a corp that Gigx didn’t like.

We still ended up giving CO2 more space in Vale though. Whereupon they asked us to upgrade stuff for them for their troubles. At this point I was unsure if this was a comedy or a tragedy. May 12th, 2015.

7:51:42 AM dawincico2: we have reached an agreement
7:52:09 AM sion_kumitomo] ?
7:52:20 AM dawincico2: http://evemaps.dotla...e_Silent/DMXN-3  will go to CO2
7:52:56 AM sion_kumitomo: oh? how's that conversation go?
7:53:01 AM dawincico2: if CONDI is willing to upgrade http://evemaps.dotla...e_Silent/LZ-6SU
7:53:13 AM sion_kumitomo: uh, no
7:53:38 AM sion_kumitomo: we're not upgrading stuff, can't even afford to upgrade our own stuff
7:53:39 AM dawincico2: it was my Bday last yesterday and his today, so the convo was in good spirits
7:53:55 AM sion_kumitomo: ah, well happy belated birthday
7:54:02 AM dawincico2: thanks!
7:54:13 AM dawincico2: he asked me to present it
7:54:19 AM sion_kumitomo: but I'm not upgrading a station for either of you as a birthday present 
7:55:14 AM dawincico2: argh
7:55:37 AM dawincico2: any kind of begging will change that? :simple_smile:
7:55:41 AM sion_kumitomo: nope
7:57:25 AM dawincico2: he is looking for something to present his alliance - which is something I cannot offer him
7:57:44 AM sion_kumitomo: and the best constellation in the region doesn't count eh
7:57:52 AM sion_kumitomo: I'll talk to him
7:58:01 AM dawincico2: he ignored that proposal
7:58:12 AM dawincico2: went straight to this one
7:58:46 AM sion_kumitomo: no worries
7:59:11 AM sion_kumitomo: it's starting to feel a bit greedy over there and that makes me rather less than happy
8:00:04 AM sion_kumitomo: bit weird too
8:00:09 AM sion_kumitomo: anyway, I'll talk to him later
8:00:18 AM dawincico2: appreciated
8:00:32 AM sion_kumitomo: I'd like to get this nailed down today if at all possible
8:00:34 AM dawincico2: I'll poke GSOL for Trib transfer in the mean time

Aryth, presumably still high on smug from calling the MMarlon thing correctly, breached coalition policy in what can only be described as spectacular fashion and snagged HARAT from CO2. CD was horrified, apologized profusely, and Aryth was yelled at repeatedly by Mirana. CO2 didn’t buy it as a the lone action of a self-professed sociopath however. For his part, Aryth offered what I am sure was a sincere “I just saw all this fallout. Wow. Sorry guys!” He followed that shortly by pointing out that they still owed him for rooting out MMarlon. May 19th, 2015.

23:20:33 Da Winci> exactly - and that is why Aryth is persona non grata henceforth. Knowing he'll prolly get away with it, I'll keep that in mind next time someone taps CO2 on the shoulder. Not liking CO2 is one thing, blatant disregard of a very tight protocol another.
23:20:56 Da Winci> Judge is aware of your intent on poking
23:21:15 Da Winci> i'm going to bed
23:21:18 Da Winci> ttyl

Then another corp, ITAI, left CO2. CO2 immediately demanded a blacklist for some vague reason that didn’t hold up under investigation and was instead another case of them being mad at someone and trying to bar them from the coalition. Amusingly, when ITAI originally joined CO2 CD had warned them that they would likely be trouble.

September 16th, 2015:

(5:17:52 AM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/a7fa275f: Are you active mate?
(5:18:34 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: hi
(5:18:39 AM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/a7fa275f: Howdy
(5:19:51 AM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/a7fa275f: I am wondering if you can help at all with this RC blacklist. Da Winci has put this corp and the ceo/directors onto it already, but they dont show up
(5:20:04 AM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/a7fa275f: I am hoping I can get it sorted before I go to bed
(5:21:47 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: Blacklist stuff goes through a vetting before it's actually put on the list formally. It's intentionally not possible for a single person to be able to unilaterally add people to the blacklist. This was a problem with the FA era blacklist (virtually no vetting or regulations) and it resulted in us basically needing to throw the whole thing out the window.
(5:22:03 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: For the blacklist to have weight, we need to guarantee everyone on there, should be on there.
(5:23:13 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: As for the specific requests Da Winci put in, I think ektony has point on compiling everything. Given the scope of the request, the current evidence is nowhere near meets the generally accepted barrier for blacklisting so there's still a bit of work to be done there.
(5:23:44 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: Basically we need enough evidence together that when someone looks at the entry in 3 years and doesn't remember who literally any of these people are, they'll know without a shadow of a doubt why they're on there.
(5:25:03 AM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/a7fa275f: I will inform Winci and our diplo team, since from what I can see we haven't been contacted by ektony yet.
(5:25:55 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: It was literally just dropped on the guy about fifteen minutes ago, I doubt he's even woken up to read it yet
(5:26:47 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: If ektony for some reason doesn't do anything with regard to it in the next day or so, I'll handle it myself.
(5:27:33 AM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/a7fa275f: No problem, thanks for the update. Hoping to make sure this goes through before it becomes a bigger mess

Upon investigation, it turned out to be a Da Winci grudge match thing, again. Draghkar subsequently started taking to calling him Da Whiney. September 20th, 2015.

(2:57:32 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: Hey, free to chat for a bit?
(3:01:21 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: howdy
(3:01:29 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: should be possible yes
(3:01:40 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: until wife calls for lunch
(3:01:51 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: Cool, this hopefully shouldn't take long.
(3:02:28 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: i like short talks, usually best ones
(3:02:37 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: So ektony doesn't seem to be around and in his absence I'm going to deal with this whole corp blacklist thing myself. Can you walk me through the reasoning on why it's something we, as a coalition should do?
(3:03:58 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: I understood it needs several people to confirm it
(3:04:17 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: I can at least confirm the following..
(3:04:55 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: have it on log - but in autocrats so not going to spill it - that Indy tried to poach FCON members
(3:05:09 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: Tark will confirm I'm sure
(3:06:17 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: also Carneros mentioning Indy shooting BSTN fc and pilots - because they did something Indy didn't like
(3:07:19 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: I told Carneros I would deal with that so removed Indy from all jabber channels cause he went raging towards anybody he felt was 'out to get him'
(3:08:26 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: So this is less a blacklist request from CO2 and more a request your making on behalf of a collection of Imperium Autocrats?
(3:08:43 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: within CO2 he pissed off a ton of CEO's for poaching their members, his general abusive attitude and shooting fleet members
(3:08:58 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: well, I cannot speak for Carneros and Tark
(3:09:31 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: and to top it off, his corp (as a corp) decided not to pay last alliance dues
(3:09:49 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: so we consider that alliance theft
(3:10:00 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: hence the corp level entry
(3:10:44 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: but I can ask Tark and Carneros to pitch in their request
(3:11:15 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: The blacklisting criteria is generally that an individual or every single individual within a corporation (in the case of a corp blacklisting) is directly working to undermine the entire coalition.
(3:11:46 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: Assuming he makes good on his back taxes owed to CO2, would that barrier still be met in co2's eyes?
(3:12:23 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: I would still very much push for a blacklist of Indy himself tho
(3:12:51 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: It's rather two separate issues, both with two highly differing standards.
(3:13:01 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: A blacklist on IO himself and on his corp as a whole.
(3:13:03 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: you'd need to know the dynamics of ITAI to really see why they are a siamese twin really
(3:14:36 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: That may very well be true but where the blacklist is placed very much changes the dynamic.
(3:15:50 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: it is my personal opinion that ITAI sucks people out of corps (because granted, Indy is annoyingly active when his bipolar self allows it) and will never be able to adhere to coalition standards thus pulling people out of the coalition
(3:16:31 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: if anything it reminds me of Apocalypse Now
(3:17:27 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: Personal opinion is the one thing we're trying to remove from the blacklist. Tt was what made the FA era one such garbage, unless you personally knew the person instating the blacklisting and valued their opinion, it was useless.
(3:18:01 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: Things like chatlogs and killmails are the rule of the day for the new and ~improved~ blacklist
(3:18:28 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: Things that in 5 years, no one who has any idea who any of these people are, will be able to use to get a sense of the situation
(3:18:47 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: and that was too many negatives but it's 3 AM and fuck it
(3:18:51 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc:
(3:19:15 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: 3am is a good time to make decisions :-D
(3:20:33 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: It is, I got off work a few hours ago, roasted the shit out of a nice chicken and am now sipping on some whiskey and slanging the diplomacy.
(3:21:02 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: sounds like a perfect context to slam the door on ITAI
(3:22:00 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: from our side I will personally try to keep them out of the Imperium for as long as I carry some weight around here
(3:22:45 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: without making it look too much of a CO2 vs ITAI thing
(3:22:55 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: (which it isn't)
(3:23:07 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: ITAI is a fairly large corp that has always managed to pull their weight as far as participation metrics are able to gather, I need something fairly severe if I'm to recommend we nuke that entire entity.
(3:23:50 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: well, coalition lvl ban is your turf
(3:24:15 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: we will keep Indy red as an alliance
(3:24:57 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: I personally spent more hours trying to keep Indy in line than all others CEO's in CO2 put together
(3:25:16 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: even Lucian James is a choir boy compared to him
(3:25:54 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: like I said, the Apocalypse now scenario is bang on here
(3:26:17 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: up to you guys to make the final call
(3:26:57 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: and wife is looking hungry, my unspoken cue
(3:27:21 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: feel free to poke me on this at any time
(3:27:51 AM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/f40242f0: enjoy the bottom of your glass!
(3:28:18 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: Alright well assuming ITAI "the corp" pays back the isk, I'm not really seeing a huge case for blacklisting that entire org outright. We can circle back on IO as an individual at a later date.
(3:28:51 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: If he's regularly blue shooting, I could see a case being made.
(3:29:29 AM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: If you could dig up killmails or even better a specific "list of sins" in the meantime, it'll make this easier all around.

Wibla, being the lovable scamp that he is, heard about CO2’s intense dislike for ITAI, and as soon as it became clear that there was no actual evidence that would warrant a corp wide blacklist entry even if it was widely agreed that their CEO was an abrasive jerk, Wibla gleefully picked them up. There’s a couple of fun things about this, the first is that CO2 was so annoyed by this guy for being “hard to deal with,” and that Wibla exacted his own kind of revenge for all the drama that had been ongoing with CO2 since TNT had moved fully into Tribute. It was the kind of move that you have to respect as a diplomat, perfectly deniable, entirely within the rules, and calculated to drive someone nuts.

CO2 reacted with their by then tradition composure. CO2 said they would never set ITAI blue, and would shoot them if they ever saw them in space. This was problematic since the two alliances shared a region, and matters quickly escalated as we’ll see in the following logs. October 24th, 2015.

[ 2015.10.24 19:11:04 ] La Nidalee > Hey!
[ 2015.10.24 19:11:12 ] La Nidalee > How are you?
[ 2015.10.24 19:14:42 ] Da Winci > i'm pretty fine
[ 2015.10.24 19:14:47 ] Da Winci > how are you?
[ 2015.10.24 19:18:19 ] Da Winci > that much to type?
[ 2015.10.24 19:18:32 ] La Nidalee > Sorry, MOA dropped
[ 2015.10.24 19:18:40 ] La Nidalee > Was trying to form a gang
[ 2015.10.24 19:18:46 ] Da Winci > we have 50 gorgon here
[ 2015.10.24 19:18:59 ] Da Winci > 60 formed in under 5min
[ 2015.10.24 19:19:11 ] La Nidalee > I just wanted to know what do you think about cap changes
[ 2015.10.24 19:19:57 ] Da Winci > Seb is happy so I'm happy also
[ 2015.10.24 19:20:08 ] La Nidalee > Yeah i find them interesting
[ 2015.10.24 19:20:10 ] Da Winci > will give people a reason to fight over
[ 2015.10.24 19:20:14 ] La Nidalee > My dread may actually be useful again
[ 2015.10.24 19:20:26 ] La Nidalee > And i'm kinda glad that i got rid of my super and character
[ 2015.10.24 19:20:30 ] La Nidalee > They sound... Boring
[ 2015.10.24 19:20:38 ] Da Winci > noooo
[ 2015.10.24 19:21:37 ] La Nidalee > No?
[ 2015.10.24 19:21:44 ] Da Winci > at first sight I find the cap changes okay
[ 2015.10.24 19:21:48 ] La Nidalee > Well, i gave my spare ISK to a corpmate
[ 2015.10.24 19:21:54 ] La Nidalee > And now we have a titan to bridge
[ 2015.10.24 19:21:55 ] La Nidalee >
[ 2015.10.24 19:26:06 ] La Nidalee > Hmmm... Anything new in CO2?
[ 2015.10.24 19:30:30 ] Da Winci > a issue brewing between CO2 and TNT yes
[ 2015.10.24 19:30:36 ] Da Winci > they will recruit ITAI
[ 2015.10.24 19:30:49 ] Da Winci > we will hold negative standings for ITAI
[ 2015.10.24 19:33:30 ] La Nidalee > Oh
[ 2015.10.24 19:33:40 ] La Nidalee > They are joining TNT?
[ 2015.10.24 19:33:46 ] Da Winci > yes
[ 2015.10.24 19:34:19 ] La Nidalee > Is it that bad? You really want them dead, are you?
[ 2015.10.24 19:35:04 ] Da Winci > euhm, as per coalition policy I was under the impression that blue fucking is blowing up your bridges
[ 2015.10.24 19:35:33 ] La Nidalee > They were blowing up your bridges after kick?
[ 2015.10.24 19:36:14 ] Da Winci > they caused drama in several alliances and with several alliances
[ 2015.10.24 19:36:28 ] Da Winci > that is IN and WITH
[ 2015.10.24 19:36:54 ] Da Winci > have logs from both Tark and Carneros complaining about Indy
[ 2015.10.24 19:37:13 ] La Nidalee > I assume you talked with TNT diplos about it?
[ 2015.10.24 19:37:13 ] Da Winci > Myself had huge issues
[ 2015.10.24 19:37:21 ] Da Winci > to Wibla yes
[ 2015.10.24 19:37:42 ] Da Winci > then they leave and decide as corp to NOT pay their dues
[ 2015.10.24 19:37:53 ] La Nidalee > They still owe you money?
[ 2015.10.24 19:37:59 ] Da Winci > which is stealing
[ 2015.10.24 19:38:31 ] Da Winci > then they throw every possible insult at CO2 and come roam in Trib specifically
[ 2015.10.24 19:39:23 ] Da Winci > and now they wanna live peacefully nextdoor?
[ 2015.10.24 19:39:25 ] Da Winci > nah
[ 2015.10.24 19:39:28 ] La Nidalee > So they still should pay you money?
[ 2015.10.24 19:39:37 ] La Nidalee > I mean, those 2 bils are still unpaid?
[ 2015.10.24 19:39:43 ] Da Winci > indeed
[ 2015.10.24 19:39:52 ] Da Winci > and idc about 2b
[ 2015.10.24 19:40:20 ] La Nidalee > Well they were quite active in pvp so i'm not surprised TNT wants them
[ 2015.10.24 19:43:12 ] Da Winci > so i understand it doesnt matter as long as a corp is active in pvp right?
[ 2015.10.24 19:44:15 ] La Nidalee > Well since TNT had no such problems yet
[ 2015.10.24 19:44:20 ] La Nidalee > They might think it's a good idea
[ 2015.10.24 19:44:37 ] La Nidalee > Maybe they will get better anyway
[ 2015.10.24 19:44:51 ] La Nidalee > I'll ask TNT and other diplos about it
[ 2015.10.24 19:45:01 ] La Nidalee > We can't really have red standings inside the coalition :\
[ 2015.10.24 19:45:27 ] Da Winci > don't even try to turn the table
[ 2015.10.24 19:45:43 ] Da Winci > those red standings preceed them being in TNT
[ 2015.10.24 19:45:58 ] Da Winci > TNT decides to recruit a red corp
[ 2015.10.24 19:46:04 ] La Nidalee > I see
[ 2015.10.24 19:46:31 ] Da Winci > weeks ago I started the procedure of blacklisting them
[ 2015.10.24 19:46:36 ] La Nidalee > Is there anything they can do to remove red standings from them?
[ 2015.10.24 19:46:39 ] Da Winci > waaaaay before this
[ 2015.10.24 19:46:55 ] Da Winci > so lets be very very clear
[ 2015.10.24 19:47:16 ] Da Winci > the table will NOT be turned on this one
[ 2015.10.24 19:47:35 ] Da Winci > we have every right to put corps red
[ 2015.10.24 19:48:22 ] Da Winci > if I would follow TNT reasoning I could recruit any and all corp that CONDI has set to red
[ 2015.10.24 19:48:39 ] Da Winci > and twist your arm to blue them
[ 2015.10.24 19:48:57 ] Da Winci > so dont turn around the table
[ 2015.10.24 19:49:41 ] Da Winci > so yes, I already informed Wibla that CO2 will hold negative standings
[ 2015.10.24 19:52:47 ] La Nidalee > Okay i see
[ 2015.10.24 19:53:02 ] La Nidalee > I will tell everyone then just to make sure they realise
[ 2015.10.24 19:53:06 ] La Nidalee > [19:46:36] La Nidalee > Is there anything they can do to remove red standings from them?
[ 2015.10.24 19:53:34 ] Da Winci > disband?
[ 2015.10.24 19:53:39 ] La Nidalee > Got it
[ 2015.10.24 19:57:45 ] La Nidalee > Alright
[ 2015.10.24 19:59:46 ] Da Winci > and their CEO will stay on red ad infinitum. If the corp disbands or not
[ 2015.10.24 20:12:02 ] La Nidalee > Welp. I'll tell them.
[ 2015.10.24 20:12:08 ] La Nidalee > Alright, well, cya then
[ 2015.10.24 20:12:11 ] La Nidalee > Let's see how it goes
[ 2015.10.24 20:12:17 ] Da Winci > kk
[ 2015.10.24 20:12:20 ] Da Winci > o7

Gigx, the guy who said he’d send over guys to someone’s house in real life, complaining about being insulted. October 28th, 2015

(11:01:18 AM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: TNT just recruited ITAI - that corp stole from CO2, poached people from other Imperium alliances, poeached from CO2 corporations, threating minilav group, made alot diplomatic issues with other alliances in coalition, and was kicked and put on -10 permamently by CO2
CO2 will keep that corp on negative standings
Game mechanics the only way to do that is to give all TNT corps +10 and set that one corp -10


No problems with TNT, we just dont want that corp living and playing in our space
(11:02:32 AM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: after kick they came to tribute every day and attack CO2 pilots
(11:02:43 AM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: insulted CO2 in local every chance they had

And of course a day later, CO2 shot up the now TNT flagged ITAI, and as is correct under coalition policy, Wibla politely asked for reimbursement of his pilots. Nina Blaze has the patience of a saint. October 29th, 2015.

(3:12:19 PM) Nina Blaze: Afternoon, are you around?
(3:12:46 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: howdy there
(3:13:10 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: how can I help?
(3:13:56 PM) Nina Blaze: So, it seems CO2 have decided to actually act on the threat of shooting another coalition member (blue), and from what I hear, you are refusing to reimburse the TNT pilot in question http://inextremis.ev...kll_id=31032424
(3:14:00 PM) Nina Blaze: Is that correct?
(3:15:21 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: the decision to keep ITAI red was taken long before they joined and keeping them on red was communicated to all
(3:15:50 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: so obviously we dont see that acting out a threat
(3:15:59 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: we shoot reds in our space
(3:16:00 PM) Nina Blaze: Correct, but as la_nidalee has explained, alliance level standings do not override coalition level standings or policies
(3:16:44 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: Nidalee rarely explains something, and certainly not that
(3:17:31 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: but we dont feel like having the table turned on us.  We even filed for a blacklisting of the corp
(3:17:50 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: which CD didnt follow through for some reason
(3:18:42 PM) Nina Blaze: I'm sure you are well aware of that fact, and playing coy isn't going to work here. The simple fact is, this is a egregious breach of coalition policy, and unless the pilots are reimbursed, and the policy followed, Sion and Mittani will have to get involved.
(3:19:26 PM) Nina Blaze: We received your blacklist request, and decided that there wasn't enough evidence to warrent a blacklisting of ITAI as a whole or Industrial Obliterator. That should have been communicated to you once it was determined
(3:19:55 PM) Nina Blaze: now you can choose to blacklist their members and him from your alliance of course, that is your choice
(3:20:46 PM) Nina Blaze: and others can choose not to give the Imperium blacklist merit, and recruit pilots on it if they so choose, but we will advise against it, and ban them from GSF services, if the situation so warrents
(3:22:24 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: I find it funny that in this instance CD is really close on the ball when it comes to coalition policies.  How does this issue weigh against poaching a blue corp?
(3:22:53 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: or that you even feel like hearing our position
(3:22:58 PM) Nina Blaze: Corps are free to go where ever they please
(3:23:12 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: noted
(3:23:17 PM) Nina Blaze: we can't and shouldn't stop people and corps from enjoying the game how they see fit
(3:23:26 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: noted again
(3:25:26 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: first word from CD on this is fullon on the offensive.  Like 23 seconds after Wibla closed convo.  That is like a prepared move to scare us shitless?
(3:25:30 PM) Nina Blaze: now we can help facilitate some of the harder conversations, and CD plays a part when corps outside of GSF approach us about joining, but we have no part or say in what corps allies choose to recruit
(3:26:15 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: no worries, I have a very clear view on how the Harat recruiting went down
(3:27:33 PM) Nina Blaze: Nope, it's a response to Wibla informing me (and me just getting back to my computer to see his message) that a TNT pilot has been blown up by a CO2, and that allegedly Industrial Obliterator is camped into a CO2 station (J-GAMP). I say allegedly because I havent been able to verify this.
(3:28:31 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: I couldnt care less about ITAI and Indy now
(3:28:35 PM) Nina Blaze: I'm not concerned with the past, and how you interrupt certain events that took place, I'm focused on the issue at hand, which is CO2 members violating Coalition policy, and being encouraged to do so by CO2 leadership
(3:28:58 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: encouraged?
(3:29:17 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: elaborate pls
(3:29:33 PM) Nina Blaze: Well 2 things
(3:30:51 PM) Nina Blaze: 1) You set ITAI red, so you're encouraging problems, and telling your members that they are hostile and okay to shoot 2) It's come to my attention that gigx sent an alliance mail out (it's on eveskunk) stating the -10 standings, and that ITAI was KOS in CO2 space
(3:31:01 PM) Nina Blaze: Does that not seem like encouragement to you?
(3:32:14 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: 1) ITAI was red months before they joined TNT - does it sound like coalition members felt it was needed to contact us?
(3:33:11 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: 2) is a confirmation of continious red standings and telling people not to hunt them and/or go roam (for them) in TNT space
(3:33:24 PM) Nina Blaze: Again, alliance standings have never trumped coalition standings when it comes to blues
(3:33:46 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: the issue is contrary to what you're trying not created by us
(3:34:07 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: Wibla was told prior to ITAI joining that we would keep red standings
(3:34:45 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: so acting all offended when this happens is... well, late
(3:35:18 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: if Wibla felt that strongly he should have contacted CD before ITAI joined
(3:35:31 PM) Nina Blaze: That's fine, again, that's up to the alliance, but if a corp that was red to your alliance (or nuetral), joins a Imperium alliance, they are OBVIOUSLY now blue to the coalition
(3:36:06 PM) Nina Blaze: this should be blatantly obvious by the fact that you (your alliance) had to essentially reset your standings with TNT as a whole, then +10 every single corp, and set ITAI -10
(3:36:19 PM) Nina Blaze: what would happen if a new corp joined TNT that you hadn't set +10 standings to
(3:36:27 PM) Nina Blaze: one of your pilots saw him in space
(3:36:29 PM) Nina Blaze: and blew him up
(3:36:41 PM) Nina Blaze: Do you think your not responsible for that loss?
(3:36:50 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: don't lecture me on the obvious
(3:37:24 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: the facts remains that this was to be exected before they joined
(3:37:56 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: Wibla chose to force it on us and go 'meh, lets see if CO2 follow through on this'
(3:38:26 PM) Nina Blaze: Da Winci, it's as simple as this
(3:38:32 PM) Nina Blaze: CO2 is a member of the Imperium
(3:38:40 PM) Nina Blaze: The Imperium has rules and policies
(3:39:22 PM) Nina Blaze: if you want to be IN the imperium, as an alliance, corp, or member of a corp, you MUST follow the coalition policy set in place
(3:39:49 PM) Nina Blaze: You have every right to argue and dispute rules and policies
(3:40:40 PM) Nina Blaze: but as a member of the Imperium, whatever the end result is of discussions about policies, you're expected to follow them at the end of the day
(3:41:28 PM) Nina Blaze: Again, if you choose not to follow these policies, La_nidalee and I will have to escalate this to Sion and Mittani
(3:41:35 PM) Nina Blaze: and they will ultimately decide what to do
(3:41:58 PM) Nina Blaze: this isn't anything new, or any sort of special treatment, it's how things are and have been (and for good reason)
(3:41:59 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: question, you want ITAI in and CO2 out?
(3:42:07 PM) Nina Blaze: It doesn't matter what I want
(3:42:32 PM) Nina Blaze: I WANT everyone to get along, and for us to not stress about this silyl internet spaceship game we all play
(3:43:12 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: again, we didnt have this conversation when CO2 got poached
(3:43:33 PM) Nina Blaze: and in order for that to happen, and for our giant empire to succeed, rules and policies need to be followed
(3:43:44 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: ^^
(3:43:45 PM) Nina Blaze: Again, I'm not concerned with the past
(3:43:57 PM) Nina Blaze: you can cite whatever event or incident you want
(3:44:02 PM) Nina Blaze: but the current issue doesn't change
(3:44:12 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: dont know the word in English but that is a 'sofisme'
(3:44:45 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: claiming the past is none of your concerns is ending any useful discussion
(3:45:02 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: so if I sit tight and wait for 2 weeks all of this is the past
(3:45:57 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: rules and policies seem to enforced depending on who wants them enforced
(3:46:13 PM) Nina Blaze: no, if your members continue to kill blues, this will escalate much faster (i'm sure)
(3:46:40 PM) Nina Blaze: this is black and white
(3:46:49 PM) Nina Blaze: pretty much as black and white as you can get
(3:46:59 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: yep
(3:47:00 PM) Nina Blaze: CO2 is violating coalition policy, and shooting blues
(3:47:16 PM) Nina Blaze: I'll use a terrible American reference
(3:47:23 PM) Nina Blaze: There are Federal laws and state laws in the US
(3:47:38 PM) Nina Blaze: Federal laws always apply
(3:48:05 PM) Nina Blaze: doesn't matter if the state says this is legal, if the Federal law says it isn't, that will be enforced at the federal level
(3:48:29 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: no please, not again. You will not admit to the fact rules seem to be enforced depending on who wants them enforced
(3:48:38 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: (because 'the past is the past')
(3:49:07 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: and you're not even being subtle in threatening to reset CO2
(3:49:47 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: so I suggest you escalete this right away
(3:49:49 PM) Nina Blaze: Please, show me one case where it's been acceptable for an entire alliance within the Imperium to be allowed to shoot an entire corp that is blue and within a blue Imperium alliance
(3:50:51 PM) Nina Blaze: It's also not my call to reset anyone
(3:51:06 PM) Nina Blaze: nor do I want that to happen
(3:51:17 PM) Nina Blaze: but I do have a vested interest in seeing this issue resolved
(3:52:05 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: and your approach is to bluntly threaten us into paying
(3:52:18 PM) Nina Blaze: I'm not threatening anyone
(3:52:21 PM) Nina Blaze: I'm stating the facts
(3:52:41 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: semantics again
(3:52:46 PM) Nina Blaze: CO2 is breaking a VERY CLEAR coalition policy
(3:52:55 PM) Nina Blaze: I'm trying to make you see reason
(3:53:10 PM) Nina Blaze: If you won't see reason, I'll let you speak with Sion (if you aren't already)
(3:53:32 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: nope, but i'm sure he'll hold the same line
(3:54:29 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: reasonable would be that an alliance doesnt recruit a corp red to their neighbors
(3:54:35 PM) Nina Blaze: Do you want me to ping him and have him contact you? I feel like you're not seeing the reason here, and if I can't do that, it's up to them
(3:54:38 PM) Nina Blaze: Historically
(3:54:45 PM) Nina Blaze: we have recruited TONS of red corps
(3:54:53 PM) Nina Blaze: and i mean red at a coalition level
(3:55:07 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: we all have yes
(3:55:19 PM) Nina Blaze: Am0k was red to GSF when we were in Minor Threat
(3:55:40 PM) Nina Blaze: The inititive, ENLI to name a few
(3:55:48 PM) Nina Blaze: recruiting red alliances isn't a new thing
(3:56:12 PM) Nina Blaze: and every time that happened, the coalition level (when a coalition existed) policy was followed
(3:57:14 PM) Nina Blaze: REASONABLE, would be a good standing member of this coalition, continuing to follow the policies and rules they were well aware of, when a former corp decided to join another alliance within the coalition
(3:58:41 PM) Nina Blaze: But I've said this multiple times, and despite the emotional response to ITAI joining TNT, I'm sure you are aware of all this
(3:59:23 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: we are yes.
(4:00:42 PM) Nina Blaze: Now I've had to take a piss for the past 30 minutes, and I don't have a container near me to help this situation (even though I'm sitting at work in my cube and wouldn't do this), so I'd like to ask that you make a decision right now. Would you like to keep discussing this, in hopes of resolving the issue, by understanding and adhering to the coalition level policy, or would you like to take this up the chain, and talk with Sion.
(4:03:43 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: I will go take a shower and think on this.  But seen the fact you're not willing to acknowledge that the stringent adhering to policies is and has been open to debate I dont see how to resolve this.  Because it would present us with a much more complex picture than the 'black/white' one you're trying to paint
(4:04:31 PM) Nina Blaze: That's perfectly alright, I hope I can take a leak faster then you can shower
(4:04:41 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: 15min will do
(4:06:21 PM) Nina Blaze: I'd be happy to discuss the complex picture when we get back though
(4:29:23 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: i'm back
(4:29:37 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: took a little longer than anticipated
(4:30:13 PM) Nina Blaze: no problem, I got some snacks
(4:33:09 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: so where were we?
(4:33:26 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: reading this dino convo again
(4:33:40 PM) Nina Blaze: You wanted to talk about the complex picture that this issue is, and argue it's not so black and white
(4:34:01 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: and your point being reason and reason only
(4:34:47 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: I think we have a huge issue here that is underlying
(4:35:38 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: the general feeling we have is that coalition rules are not that clear-cut for everyone at all times
(4:35:44 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: they usually are
(4:36:04 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: and as such are a (t)rusty framework
(4:36:21 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: the friction between TNT and CO2 goes back some time now
(4:37:46 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: the frustrating feeling about several issues in the past (sorry) between CO2 and TNT has led to this (socalled) stubborn position
(4:38:37 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: I myself and leadership as a whole strongly have the feeling he went 'shrug, fuck them' and proceeded
(4:39:15 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: if you take the black/white stance that would be (is) perfectly within his right
(4:40:21 PM) Nina Blaze: I can totally see that, and understand the tension that's there (and am honestly surprised you guys have been getting along so well the last several months )
(4:41:00 PM) Nina Blaze: and for something less serious, an actual debate on the policy (generally before actually breaking it), and if it should change, could totally happen
(4:41:05 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: but in the current meta of all alliances basically living on isolated islands and depending mainly on their neighbors ... we feel it's putting relations on an alltime low to blatantly disregard your closest neighbor
(4:41:57 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: any corp would have made us go meh
(4:42:03 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: except this one
(4:42:34 PM) Nina Blaze: but when you talk about something like this, where line members are involved, and actual negative impact to peoples ~gameplay and fun~ is happening, possibly to people that you guys have no issues with (I'm sure you don't feel this way about every single member in ITAI), debate on if this is acceptable or not is really out of the question
(4:42:56 PM) Nina Blaze: And really, this is the totally wrong way to broach this
(4:43:43 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: Personally I would settle for Indy being kicked from ITAI and the coalition.
(4:44:33 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: but take into account past friction and you will find CO2 leadership as a block way less forgiving
(4:44:48 PM) Nina Blaze: Again, we deemed that blacklisting his corporation, and/or him, was not fair, and the evidence presented to us was what we were acting upon
(4:46:45 PM) Nina Blaze: Indeed, but you, as a leader, need to take a step back and really think about if this is what's best for your alliance. How does ITAI even impact you now, they're gone from CO2, and out of your hair. If they try to stir shit, that can and will be dealt with, and trust me when I say Wibla doesn't want to deal with drama from within TNT
(4:46:54 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: kicked from GENTS - on autocrat log Tark saying he is poaching from FCON - Carneros on autocrat wanting him gone for shooting blues and causng drama - stealing from our alliance - poaching from our alliance -
(4:47:27 PM) Nina Blaze: On the "stealing from alliance" note, I've seen proof that the unpaid taxes have been paid
(4:47:42 PM) Nina Blaze: and I thought la_nidalee told me you confirmed that too
(4:47:59 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: lol yes, but that doesnt negate the fact they actuaally stole first right?
(4:48:38 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: I did not confirm anything of the kind
(4:49:07 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: they did pay yes, trying to slip in next door
(4:49:30 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: it's a meagre 2b and some afaik
(4:49:54 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: not counting the Tech tower they held after they left
(4:50:06 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: but the iskies is not the issue
(4:50:46 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: you dont steal from a blue alliance right
(4:51:56 PM) Nina Blaze: So did you or anyone from CO2 reach out to Wibla about recovering these things and setting things right? Everything I have heard is CO2 reached out to TNT stating you'd be setting ITAI red, and there wasn't much of a discussion
(4:52:52 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: ermm, its hard to reach out when information reaches me like 24 hours before it happens
(4:54:04 PM) Nina Blaze: Fair enough, and this is completely up to TNT and Wibla, but they could have reached out to you to ask your opinion, but ultimately, ITAI was neutral, and they didn't need to ask permission or anything like that
(4:54:51 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: neutral to TNT - for sure not to CO2, i'm sure of that part
(4:55:25 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: if anybody in TNT would have actually listened to us we wouldnt be having this conversation
(4:55:52 PM) Nina Blaze: My point being, maybe the approach that was taken wasn't the best, it seems like there wasn't a lot of discussion, just a lot of threats, and despite CO2 and TNT's history of tension, I'd like to hope that wouldn't be the first option you looked at
(4:56:10 PM) Nina Blaze: Sure, and again, it's 100% up to TNT whether they want to allow them in or not.
(4:56:14 PM) Nina Blaze: It's not up to either of us
(4:56:19 PM) Nina Blaze: we can advise, and give feedback
(4:56:21 PM) Nina Blaze: and hope they listen
(4:56:39 PM) Nina Blaze: but TNT is Wibla's, and him and his dudes are free to recruit who they want, just like you guys
(4:56:43 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: also, it was said in dilpo channel when ITAI left that we would keep them red and we advized everyone not to recruit them
(4:57:16 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: so we feel we followed every possible procedure
(4:57:46 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: and thus we feel TNT recruiting them anyway is a slap in the face
(4:57:47 PM) Nina Blaze: That's fine, and if you guys felt strongly that way, it makes sense, but it's still not your decision, nor GSF's, or anyones but TNT on if they want to recruit that corp
(4:58:31 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: and specially gigX doesnt react very well to that
(4:58:36 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: (to say the least)
(4:59:13 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: in a way (and most of us agree) that outweighs keeping ITAI in the coalition
(4:59:26 PM) Nina Blaze: How successful do you think we as a coalition would have been in the past if we took some sort of super overlord stance, and tried to police who could and couldn't join allies. Why do you think CO2 deserves the right to do that? I think it's pretty obvious nobody would be happy with that situation
(5:00:03 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/98807698: nor would people be happy keeping IO in coalition
(5:01:32 PM) Nina Blaze: I've never had a problem with him that I can recall, but I know he's ruffled feathers with various GSF directors for sure
(5:02:11 PM) Nina Blaze: but again, those pre-madona GSF directors don't make the call on who is allowed to join TNT
(5:02:14 PM) Nina Blaze: or any alliance
(5:02:16 PM) Nina Blaze: (thank fuck)
(5:03:29 PM) Nina Blaze: This ain't communist China
(5:03:53 PM) Nina Blaze: Who I think really does get to choose what corporations do business or not in their country lol
(5:08:55 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: it's not a whim - and if, like with SECTION 8, an alliance says to not recruit a given corp, standing policy is not to
(5:10:22 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: we feel we followed every possible step in every possible procedure to make sure this situation wouldnt arise
(5:10:36 PM) Nina Blaze: I'm confused, what are you referencing in SECTION 8?
(5:11:27 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: they left TNT and diplo was pinged not to recruit them
(5:11:37 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: as did we with ITAI
(5:12:04 PM) Nina Blaze: A corp left TNT and then joined section 8, despite someone in TNT telling us not to recruit them?
(5:12:26 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: no, section 8 is the corp tat left TNT
(5:12:39 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: and TNT pinged diplo to not recruit them
(5:12:50 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: nobody did
(5:13:07 PM) Nina Blaze: OH
(5:13:12 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: ITAI was kicked from CO2
(5:13:20 PM) Nina Blaze: I was thinking of the renter corp thing
(5:13:58 PM) Nina Blaze: Again, that's fine, TNT can advise people not to recruit them for x, x and x reasons, but it's not up to them
(5:14:22 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: and yet all adhered to that
(5:14:36 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: we pinged and set -10
(5:14:40 PM) Nina Blaze: Sure, but they most definitely didn't have to
(5:14:52 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: so we feel our arm twisted in this
(5:15:12 PM) Nina Blaze: If a blacklist request came in, and there was evidence supporting them to be added to the blacklist and they were, that's fine.
(5:15:14 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: like I said, it's not black/white
(5:15:28 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: there was a bl request
(5:15:29 PM) Nina Blaze: Doesn't mean people can't recruit them still
(5:15:47 PM) Nina Blaze: THAT policy, may not seem black and white (the blacklist policy), and it isn't
(5:15:51 PM) Nina Blaze: it's all a judgement call
(5:15:53 PM) Nina Blaze: but shooting blues
(5:15:57 PM) Nina Blaze: THAT is black and white, you have to admit
(5:16:34 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: seen the context it still feels very gray to us
(5:17:14 PM) Nina Blaze: Shooting blues is still gray to you?
(5:17:42 PM) Nina Blaze: Vile Rat would say differently if that wonderful man were here today :/
(5:17:50 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: shooting ITAI is - dont corner me on shooting blues across the board
(5:18:09 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: I myself have been shot by TNT guys more often than I care to remember
(5:18:36 PM) Nina Blaze: Okay, so again. What happens when a new corp joins TNT, and you don't have them explicitly set blue and they get blown up
(5:18:55 PM) Nina Blaze: Is this stance really worth it?
(5:19:01 PM) Nina Blaze: now you're involving guys that aren't even ITAI
(5:19:11 PM) Nina Blaze: because of a grudge you hold against a former CO2 corp
(5:19:20 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: ow wow
(5:19:33 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: now you reduce it to holding a grudge?
(5:20:02 PM) Nina Blaze: Well, that's all it really is right now isn't it? What would you call it?
(5:20:11 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: is that the basic aasumption you make?
(5:20:15 PM) Nina Blaze: I think you used those words yourself actually
(5:20:22 PM) Nina Blaze: maybe not
(5:20:30 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: I could hold a grudge against Harat
(5:20:34 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: or DTHI
(5:20:37 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: or MODRO
(5:20:51 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: or any corp that left on bad standings
(5:21:25 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: but reducing our stance as petty grudge is *gasp*
(5:22:02 PM) Nina Blaze: You call and label it what you will
(5:22:34 PM) Nina Blaze: It is an emotional response, to actions certain individuals did, that upset you
(5:22:47 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: nope
(5:23:15 PM) Nina Blaze: Again, it doesn't matter in the context of the rules and policies that you adhere to as a member of this coalition
(5:23:55 PM) Nina Blaze: and breaking this rule, and negatively impacting people's ~fun~ will more then likely get you no where
(5:24:22 PM) Nina Blaze: I say more then likely, because it isn't my call as to the repercussions of this.
(5:24:30 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: when it comes to adhering to rules I refer again to Harat poached and the string of reasons we gave for setting ITAI red -none of them are emotional, rather just factual
(5:25:29 PM) Nina Blaze: Historically, shooting blues has never been a good solution to anything
(5:26:55 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: historically, getting all worked up for one socalled breach and ignoring others neither
(5:27:02 PM) Nina Blaze: So what's stopping me from setting Am0k red to, let's say Goonswarm, then claiming it's okay for am0k members to shoot goonswarm, because I decided we are red to them
(5:27:25 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: if you would decide that on a whim that would be retarded
(5:28:12 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: and its not setting someone red post joining
(5:28:26 PM) Nina Blaze: Would it be justifiable if I even had a reason? Knowing that shooting blues (and despite my corp setting them red, they are still blue from a coalition standpoint) is forbidden
(5:28:52 PM) Nina Blaze: The letter of the law says no
(5:29:14 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: correct, and we, being reasonable, would have talked to all involved parties before creating this situation as did TNT
(5:30:05 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: knowingly ignoring the obvious (this happening) and then calling us unreasonable is turning the tables
(5:37:16 PM) Nina Blaze: Again, and this is the last time I'm going to say this, because I can't talk in circles forever, if we find blacklisting them is not something we deem fair, and TNT chooses to recruit the corp anyway, that's their right, and it's not up to you. You have every right to blacklist ITAI members and the corp from CO2. You have no right to shoot coalition blues, despite your alliance standings. This is the last time I say this, and if you want to discuss this further, you can do so with Sion.
(5:41:46 PM) Nina Blaze: Seeing as how it's getting late EU time now, I'm going to have Sion ping you to discuss further.
(5:44:26 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: coolio, seen it indeed is getting late you might want to do that
(5:44:56 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: not sure how long I'll be around, but you'll find some leadership guy for sure

I, however, do not have the patience of a saint.

Buckle up gentle goons, if you’ve been skipping or skimming logs to this point, these next few are worth reading as we swiftly enter trainwreck zone. Same day.

(4:43:01 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: hello
(4:43:21 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: I'm told that you escalated this most recent diplomatic incident to me directly
(4:43:23 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: so let's talk
(4:43:43 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: howdy there
(4:44:19 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: i'll try to focus to the best of my ability
(4:45:04 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: we could have skipped the first 3 hours
(4:45:31 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: I already know what the situation is
(4:45:45 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: I'd like to know why you've decided to ignore longstanding coalition policy
(4:46:09 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: blacklists aren't for ego driven grudge matches
(4:46:29 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: nor is standings an optional thing for corps of imperium member alliances
(4:46:35 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: so what the hell are you thinking
(4:46:56 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: again, I refuse to let this be reduced to petty grudge
(4:47:26 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: I'm entirely familiar with IO and itai, you'll recall I recommended that you guys not take them
(4:47:51 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: they've been kicked out of basically every alliance they've been in, including many who are no longer around
(4:48:01 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: I don't expect they'll have a longer shelf life in tnt either
(4:48:11 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: so why in the fuck are you burning political capital on this dumb shit
(4:48:45 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: because we don't want them living next to us basically
(4:49:16 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: suck it up, that's the price you pay for not listening the first time around and consider it a lesson lightly learned
(4:49:37 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: you don't get to dictate coalition policies based on feelings
(4:49:59 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: and I'm frankly pissed off that you're making me defend itai and IO by being so boneheaded about this shit
(4:50:10 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: why you keep saying feelings?
(4:50:28 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: so stop making them defend them, just inform wibla that they're shitlers and eventually they'll get tossed out and hooray, everyone wins
(4:50:39 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: I brought factual blue fuckery on the table when trying to blacklist them
(4:50:47 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: and it was deemed 'not enough'
(4:50:53 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: yup, that ruling stands
(4:51:17 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: and I informed Wibla
(4:51:20 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: well tried to
(4:51:21 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: unless you can convince me that it was more substantial than what I saw, it will continue to stand
(4:51:59 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: it wasnt at all very substantial because Draghkar made it very clear (subtly) that is wouldnt happen
(4:52:30 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: and I cannot be arsed to compile every single instance in that context
(4:52:46 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: *it wouldnt happen
(4:52:51 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: so I dropped it
(4:53:02 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: pinged diplo to not recruit them
(4:53:12 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: and went on with my bussiness
(4:53:40 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: to my big surprise I then find out they will join TNT
(4:53:54 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: without as much as a squeek from their side
(4:54:08 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/ebdaace5: (and yes, I know, technically they dont have to)
(4:55:06 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: correct, there's no obligation to inform anyone when someone recruits a neutral/red entity
(4:55:20 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/6ab76d12: so we feel that we're not being unreasonable here when we keep the line that Wibla was notified about prior to ITAI joining
(4:56:10 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: I'm sorry wait
(4:56:26 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: explain to me how anything about your reaction here was being reasonable
(4:56:46 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: "we're going to shoot your member corp that you broke no rules in recruiting from lowsec"
(4:56:52 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: what about that is reasonable
(4:57:09 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: there is one very clear violation of coalition policy here
(4:57:13 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: and that's all on you guys
(4:57:26 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: so put the ego aside, and think about this rationally for a moment
(4:57:37 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: yeah, IO is bad. I told you that
(4:57:39 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: you didn't listen
(4:57:44 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: you told wibla that
(4:57:47 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: he didn't listen
(4:57:54 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: project into the future a couple of months
(4:57:57 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: hmm
(4:58:02 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: what's the reasonable response here
(4:58:11 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: 1) kick up a giant fuss and make a shit ton of drama
(4:58:24 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: potentially getting evicted from the coalition in the process
(4:58:26 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: or
(4:58:39 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: 2) wait and tell wibla "I told you so" some months down the line
(4:58:47 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: exactly like I'm telling you now
(4:58:59 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: so
(4:59:01 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: pick one
(4:59:05 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: what sounds more reasonable to you
(5:01:16 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/3adaa94f: I will drag gigX in a room and pick one
(5:02:04 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: he punted it back to you
(5:02:20 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: so decide
(5:02:55 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/3adaa94f: I know because I can keep my cool better than he can and my English sounds better
(5:03:12 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: well
(5:03:17 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: then prove it
(5:03:36 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: because shooting allies is not tolerated in this coalition, I don't care if they are giant assholes
(5:03:57 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: until they break coalition policy, they're covered by the same protections as the rest
(5:04:10 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: as soon as they break coalition policy, all bets are off
(5:04:35 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: which is a not so subtle way of saying, since you're currently in major breach of coalition policy, that you're way out on the edge here
(5:05:03 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: actively shooting allies is old northern coalition levels of bullshit
(5:06:02 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: so either you tell me you'll keep this ego driven chest pounding bullshit in line and wait for the inevitable conclusion to how IO always gets kicked out, or I have to start spinning up plans for how to handle someone who no longer wants to be a coalition member in good standing
(5:17:14 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/b9e8130e: they voted as corp to not pay their dues - as such they breached coalition policy - so I cannot see how they kept protection afte that.
(5:17:35 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: don't be weasely with me
(5:17:43 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: I laid it all out, make your decision
(5:18:47 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: seriously if you make me have to draw a distinction between alliance policy and coalition policy I'm going to get irate
(5:19:41 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/b9e8130e: wait, alliance theft is just a policy CO2 has?
(5:20:10 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: not paying taxes isn't theft unless you're a libertarian
(5:20:20 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: theft is what mmarlon did
(5:20:23 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/b9e8130e: it's not taxes
(5:20:25 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: which we also warned you about
(5:20:36 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: and you kicked them out, so hooray, problem solved
(5:21:30 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/b9e8130e: yep and with good reasons to bl them. which for some unclear reason didnt stick with CD at the time
(5:21:43 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: I'm sorry
(5:21:46 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: I don't think I was clear
(5:22:04 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: I'm not going to rehash this, you have your decision points
(5:22:21 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: so decide
(5:22:57 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: of course, if you keep shooting allies I'm going to decide for you
(5:23:42 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: really don't get it dude, you say you want to learn and that you want to prosecute realpolitik
(5:23:50 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: and then you guys go and do something like this
(5:24:05 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: so yeah, decide
(5:24:13 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/b9e8130e: nor can I understand you
(5:24:22 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/b9e8130e: you will go for ITAI over CO2
(5:24:56 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/b9e8130e: we can live with corps getting poached
(5:25:05 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: they didn't get poached, they were neutral
(5:25:15 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: remember, you tossed them out
(5:25:55 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: so get down off that cross and just see it for what it is, you're mad that they got a home in the coalition after the stupid shit they did to you
(5:26:04 PM) da_winci@goonfleet.com/52beaae1: so we go for 1
(5:26:09 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: welcome to the club, every alliance they've ever been in has kicked them out
(5:26:21 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: okay
(5:26:53 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: continue shooting blues then, I'll have a response ready for you shortly after I inform wibla that you intend to keep shooting his people

And now, at last, we see what the great threat of eviction was. We’ll come back to this. October 30th, 2015, Seb tells Boat that “the next war will be very close to home.”

 (9:26:46 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: Yo
(9:27:43 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: when you around and have time, I would love to chat ,3
(10:42:31 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: sure
(10:42:33 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: I'm here
(10:42:42 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: sup
(10:42:51 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: so
(10:42:53 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: how are you
(10:42:59 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: quite fine myself
(10:43:07 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: watching a trainwreck in progress is always fun
(10:43:16 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: trainwreck?
(10:44:37 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: I won't spoil the surprise then
(10:44:47 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: just saying the next war will be very close to home
(10:44:53 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: woah
(10:44:55 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: wtf
(10:44:59 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: yeah about that
(10:45:09 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: where are you on all this drama
(10:45:17 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: well
(10:45:32 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: I have often be the voice of reason in CO2 as you know
(10:45:42 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: but on that case it's pretty clear cut for me
(10:46:28 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: TNT recruited a corp that breached coalition rules (two of them at the very least), and because they are TNT Goons are all "that's cool, who cares about the rules anyway"
(10:47:05 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: I personally believe in rules as long as they apply, but if they become optional, I'm not interested
(10:47:29 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: might want to share that with mirana, because right now da winci hasn't shared any reason other then "fuck them they made us mad"
(10:47:36 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: I don't give a shit about ITAI myself, never had any real drama with them
(10:48:02 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: I always strive to stay faaaarrrrr away from drama myself
(10:48:43 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: yeah
(10:48:44 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: but
(10:48:45 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: I am worried
(10:49:02 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: but when a corp does an actual corp vote to leave and not pay a bill to the alliance and not say anything
(10:49:09 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: and they did vote on that, they confirmed it themselves
(10:49:26 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: oh wow
(10:49:32 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: if it's not goonfucking (or balkanfucking in that case)
(10:49:35 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: I don't know what is
(10:49:45 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: well
(10:49:46 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: again
(10:50:28 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: I worry about friends/allies, and seeing this cause such a problem sucks
(10:50:38 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: yeah well
(10:50:51 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: we have had 2 wars, no co2, and now di winci wants to push this point
(10:50:53 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: as his cross
(10:50:56 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: it sucks
(10:50:58 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: no
(10:51:05 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: we do not want to push to a war
(10:51:29 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: war, what?
(10:51:42 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: why go on a cross over 1 corp
(10:51:45 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: if its isk, ill pay it
(10:51:50 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: it's not ISK
(10:51:59 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: it's the principle of the thing
(10:52:14 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: oh?
(10:52:26 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: we cannot accept that ITAI can just re-join coalition white as a dove as if nothing ever happened
(10:52:48 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: yeah but what im saying
(10:53:02 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: to sion, from how it sounds, he doesn't have a valid reason other then "but fuck them"
(10:53:19 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: I am no diplo
(10:53:23 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: but I care about friends <3
(10:53:23 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: neither am I
(10:54:09 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: winci tells me he told him the entire thing, we gave them to be blacklisted when they left with the details, and then the next we hear Wibla recruits them and oh they never got blacklisted so no problem
(10:54:32 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: anyway if people wants to talk to me, they know where to find me
(10:54:47 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: I asked to talk to you, not as a diplo but as boat
(10:54:59 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: you are most welcome
(10:55:02 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: pretty funny too
(10:55:13 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: I remember losing many a Drake under your fleets taking Tribute
(10:55:24 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: good old days
(10:55:46 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: <3
(10:55:48 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: so
(10:55:52 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: you think di winci would go that far?
(10:56:02 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: what does gigx think?
(10:56:19 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: ahahahah
(10:56:40 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: da winci and the rest of the leadership is keeping gigx from shooting them right now
(10:56:47 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: oh?
(10:56:59 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: ITAI thought it would be funny to bring a hauler fleet on our undock
(10:57:10 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: so gigx feels wronged by how that corp handled it, wanted them blacklisted, it didn't happen, tnt gets them, hes mad
(10:57:10 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: you can imagine gigx reaction
(10:57:17 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: pretty much
(10:57:38 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: but our leadership was unanimous on it anyway
(10:57:41 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: yeah
(10:57:49 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: if not all for the same reasons
(10:58:07 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: some because fuck indy, some because of the principle
(11:00:06 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: yeah
(11:05:50 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: well we have an alliance meeting tonight anyway, so our position will be made public then
(11:06:03 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: so thats it huh?
(11:06:04 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e:
(11:06:23 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: we aren't leaving or resetting anyone tonight
(11:06:35 AM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: confused
(11:07:23 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: we are going to explain the situation to our people and what we plan to do
(11:07:32 AM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: nothing unreasonable, you know us

Later that day:

(4:16:59 PM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: (4:15:25 PM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: okay, we have decided
(4:15:29 PM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: want the insider scoop
(4:16:12 PM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: ohdear
(4:16:14 PM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: do tell
(4:16:30 PM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: they are being blued, and we are going to be nice
(4:16:35 PM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: YAY
(4:16:37 PM) dabigredboat@goonfleet.com/b2c0453e: my man!
(4:16:39 PM) sebastien_saintfrusquin@goonfleet.com/Heritier: FOR NOW

And last one on this, again, same day. Gigx this time.

(9:30:39 AM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: You here
(9:30:56 AM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: This is exacly what I was telling to your diplos
(9:30:57 AM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: http://prntscr.com/8x2ioa
(9:31:04 AM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: provoke by ITAI
(12:11:51 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: http://prnt.sc/8x4b6z
(12:13:03 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: https://i.gyazo.com/...ab01f0438d4.png
(12:13:30 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: so wibla is making fools CDs
(12:36:52 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: I'm not sure that it's as provocative as blowing tnt guys up
(12:39:32 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: I talked to da winci about this yesterday, he indicated to me that the escalation of drama was the path he was interested in as well so I'm not sure what you want me to do about this
(12:42:00 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: Well you gave him 2 options
(12:42:05 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: to set ITAI blue
(12:42:15 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: or be kicked from CFC
(12:42:33 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: means CFC dont need CO2
(12:43:00 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: anyway we have alliance meeting to inform people
(12:43:15 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: that they should expect ping about reseting
(12:43:19 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: from Imperium
(12:46:05 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: I see
(12:46:21 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: so you're planning on leaving tribute then?
(12:46:32 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: Well you planing to remove us
(12:46:40 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: what else should we do
(12:46:59 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: oh I dunno, maybe set all of tnt blue?
(12:47:06 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: seems easier
(12:47:33 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: Its easy to kill them then let them live
(12:47:56 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: okay
(12:48:21 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: but thats my opinion
(12:48:21 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: this is going to be the dumbest resets in the history of dumb resets though, but you're not leaving me any choice
(12:48:59 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: look
(12:49:06 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: this is not first issue with tnt
(12:49:13 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: can't have this kind of old school northern coalition levels of blue shooting, and trying to dictate who someone can recruit because you don't like them isn't going to fly either
(12:49:35 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: of course it isn't
(12:49:42 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: we've been allies for years, issues happen
(12:50:25 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: itai has been nothing but trouble for every alliance they've ever been in, I don't imagine they'll last long in tnt
(12:50:49 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: but until such a time as they're removed, I have the same obligation to defend them and enforce coalition policy as any other alliance or corp
(12:50:57 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: this is their 4 alliance in Imperium
(12:51:00 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: they joining
(12:51:40 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: Its not problem for me to put them blue
(12:51:43 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: just to be blue
(12:51:52 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: problem is they will try to poach people
(12:52:04 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: and link their propaganda like always
(12:52:12 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: there's a poaching policy as well, if they violate it they're deep shit
(12:52:28 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: they already did that when they were in CO2
(12:52:38 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: few of many reasons we kick them out
(12:53:07 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: yeah, it's part of why I warned you guys not to take them
(12:53:33 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: after tnt, I think they're literally out of alliances in the coalition to join though
(12:53:40 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: we sure as hell aren't taking them
(12:56:22 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: anyway it's the same thing I told da winci yesterday, two choices, either you guys follow the coalition rules, or you don't. that's up to you
(2:15:28 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: http://prntscr.com/8x68sr
(2:15:53 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: http://i.imgur.com/ztOuIRc.png <- we put them on BL
(2:16:15 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: but from first picture
(2:16:49 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: Draghkar was talking with them
(2:16:59 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: did you know about this?
(3:38:12 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: blacklist entries are cleared via goonswarm, there's no unilateral ability to put people on the blacklist
(3:41:10 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: so yes, I was aware there was a pending request, after reviewing it, it was determined that yeah they're shitheads, but we don't blacklist people for that
(3:42:34 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: Ok full TNT is +10
(3:42:51 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: I see that if anyone is braking rules against CO2
(3:43:12 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: CD will fix that
(3:43:18 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: so CO2 will be always wrong
(3:43:52 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: not the first time CO2 having problems with CD
(3:44:17 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: sure, that's the way of it. but CD has helped you guys out a lot over the years too
(3:44:39 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: that doesn't mean we're always going to land on your side blindly though
(3:44:43 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: I agree
(3:44:53 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: but also how many times they helped us
(3:45:01 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: the same amount of time they fcked us
(3:45:09 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: that story is repeating always
(3:45:13 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: so I`m ok with that
(3:45:51 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: and thats why I have da winci to deal with that
(3:45:59 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: I'm just glad we reached a resolution here
(3:46:02 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: I`m working only by overview
(3:46:15 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: no worries
(3:46:35 PM) sion_kumitomo@goonfleet.com/66253e14: now I'll start taking bets on how long they last in tnt before they fuck that up too somehow


I wonder what could have possibly cause them to change their minds about wanting to be in the coalition a little bit longer? Was it the money? The security? Something else? January 16th, 2016.

(6:31:22 PM) jenna_frey@goonfleet.com/Home: Hi, are you available for a chat?
(6:32:42 PM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/goonfleet.com: Sure, what can I help you with?
(6:33:24 PM) jenna_frey@goonfleet.com/Home: I wanted to take the time to introduce myself.  I'm the new diplomat assigned to your alliance from GSF.
(6:33:56 PM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/goonfleet.com: Nice to meet you
(6:35:33 PM) jenna_frey@goonfleet.com/Home: I'm looking forward to working with you guys.
(6:35:47 PM) jenna_frey@goonfleet.com/Home: Is there anything that you would like to ask me?
(6:37:15 PM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/goonfleet.com: Not that I can think of. I do have something you could do for me though
(6:37:45 PM) jenna_frey@goonfleet.com/Home: Sure, what is it?
(6:39:34 PM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/goonfleet.com: I approached ektony a while ago making it known to him, and by extension CD, that I would be running for CSM XI. He assured me that someone would talk to me closer to the candidacy period. Well, candidacy period is here
(6:41:06 PM) jenna_frey@goonfleet.com/Home: OK, I'll look into that and let you know what I find out.  When did you talk to him?
(6:43:19 PM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/goonfleet.com: Oh, 6 months or so. CO2 has been working on a CSM candidacy since March 2015, so it would be nice to have a discussion about that now. The reply so far has always been "we will talk about it when its closer"
(6:44:40 PM) jenna_frey@goonfleet.com/Home: understood.  I'll ping the powers that be over here and get the conversation started
(6:44:49 PM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/goonfleet.com: Thank you

“No one can fix what your old diplos fucked up” - Gigx, January 16th 2016.
(7:36:01 PM) jenna_frey@goonfleet.com/Home: Hello, I'm one of the two GSF Diplomats assigned to your alliance.  I wanted to take the time to introduce myself and have a brief chat when you have the time.
(7:39:18 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: I dont have time for your introduction so lets go on brief chat
(7:42:22 PM) jenna_frey@goonfleet.com/Home: The purpose of this contact is to simply indroduce myself as a point of contact for any Diplomatic issues you might have with the Alliance.  If you are too busy to have a conversation right now, that's fine.  Feel free to PM me when you have more time.
(7:43:11 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: You should contact Da Winci or The Judge
(7:43:16 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: and introduce yourself to them
(7:43:44 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: because I realy dont trust anymore in GSF Diplomats
(7:45:12 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: For me they are just bunch of dickheads
(7:45:15 PM) jenna_frey@goonfleet.com/Home: That is something I would like to fix if I can.  I am not here to deceive or try to trick you.  I'm here to help our alliances communicate more effectively.  But I'll work through your assigned diplomats and let time and my actions prove themselves to you.
(7:45:21 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: so its better to go and talk with da winci
(7:45:37 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: noone can fix what old diplos fcked up
(7:45:49 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: including main diplos
(7:46:03 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: Ok talk with my diplos
(7:46:06 PM) gigx@goonfleet.com/laptop: Fly Safe
(7:46:21 PM) jenna_frey@goonfleet.com/Home: ok thank for your time tonight.

No, it can’t be, there’s no way CO2 would stick with us just because of the CSM vote that was coming up. No one could care that much about it. January 27th, 2016.

(7:57:58 PM) jenna_frey@goonfleet.com/Home: hey judge, did you get what you needed?
(8:03:44 PM) The Judge: Yeah, all sorted
(8:07:37 PM) The Judge: On another note, anything new on the CSM front?
(8:08:12 PM) The Judge: I can't seem to get an accurate picture of who is running this year from the coalition
(8:08:21 PM) jenna_frey@goonfleet.com/Home: Not yet.  The information on candidates is still being gathered
(8:08:46 PM) The Judge: Let me know if you hear anything
(8:08:52 PM) jenna_frey@goonfleet.com/Home: I don't think anyone knows who is running.  Have you submitted your app to CCP?
(8:09:14 PM) The Judge: Was submitted the first day it opened
(8:09:30 PM) jenna_frey@goonfleet.com/Home: ok great.  I'll add that information to the post
(8:09:35 PM) The Judge: Waited up all night for the site to go live heh

No surely that can’t be it, no one would sacrifice their time being in a coalition they hate for something so crass as votes on a space council. Februrary 12th, 2016.

(00:43:04) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: Oh by the way, I'm supposed to tell you to vote The Judge for CSM in thanks for our continued support to the Imperium Cause
(00:43:12) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: the shit they make me do sometimes...
(00:43:28) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: done with the patriotic shit for now at least
(00:45:50) the_mittani: if he wants on the roster that's nbd, just let sion_kumitomo or mirana know
(00:46:08) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: will do

That would just be preposterous. Februrary 24th, 2016.

(2:04:37 PM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/goonfleet.com: Dear Candidate,

It is our pleasure to let you know that your application to run for CSM XI has been processed and accepted. We are available at this address if any problems or questions arise.

We wish you the best of luck with your campaign and look forward to working with those who get elected.

On behalf of CCP,
CCP Guard and CCP Logibro
(2:11:41 PM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: cool, congrats man
(2:11:52 PM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/goonfleet.com:
(2:12:03 PM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: now onto the "fun" part
(2:12:21 PM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/goonfleet.com: I told Mirana I would poke when I got a confirmation from CCP
(2:13:03 PM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/goonfleet.com: I thought I was stressed before
(2:13:27 PM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: Yeah, I'll hit up da winci next time I see him and double check that co2 formally wants you on the coalition ballot and we'll go from there.
(2:13:49 PM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: I mean I'm sure that he does but ~the process~
(2:14:03 PM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: We've had some awkward mixups in the past
(2:14:46 PM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/goonfleet.com: He's around, I poked him on skype
(2:15:20 PM) draghkar@goonfleet.com/pc: I'm just checking in on my lunch break before I head back to work. I'll need to grab him tomorrow or something.
(2:17:05 PM) the_judge@goonfleet.com/goonfleet.com: No problem

And our last little blurb before their betrayal, March 24th, 2016.
dawincico2 [3:58 PM]
just ended the meeting with Carneros and Thoric.  From the part of CO2 I guess the official question is why should we bleed in defence of Goonswarm? The support we're getting (and had in the past) is close to non-exsistent. In the light of threats made towards CO2 by CD, the disregard of coalition rules when it suited CD and the general disrespect towards the alliance...
Carneros would prolly word it less blunt, but hey, we're CO2 and not supposed to be subtle.

The day after CSM voting closed, CO2 betrayed the coalition after our defense of their space in M-O. The betrayal, the supercapital trap, and that story is covered elsewhere, so I won’t bother to repeat it here. I’ll just add that before they left, Gigx and Seb personally accessed our supercapital build list and passed that information onto our foes. Within six hours, they were hitting formerly allied sov, and within a day, formerly allied CSAA’s. They hit up members of the coalition and tried to convince them to join them in their exodus while simultaneously hitting their assets. This was accompanied by rhetoric of how they were the only pvp alliance in the Imperium, and piled on top of years of disdain for allies.

 No one in Goonswarm leadership was particularly surprised that CO2 opted to leave the coalition. That has, as you can see, has been building for years. What was surprising is that instead of taking a sensible approach along the lines of “you know what, coalition life isn’t for us, we’re going to leave now, best wishes and see you in space,” they opted to go the pure traitor route. That they made sure to milk as much value out of the coalition, asking us to defend their lowsec r64’s for months, even something as petty as CSM votes, all the while planning what would have been a crippling superercapital loss to the Imperium. It is beyond reprehensible.

From an intellectual perspective, it is curious to chart the decline of CO2 from a driven and friendly alliance of 300 people to a greedy and ego bloated alliance of 3000. As they freely admitted, we helped build them from the ground up, giving them assets and advice on how to grow and to manage their new alliance. But then greed and self interest took over, and our gratitude for taking a chance on them, giving them a home, giving them resources, helping them build back in 2012 was repaid with treachery. I can’t help but wonder, what might the Gigx of 2012 say to the Gigx of 2016? Would he still speak of fun and friendship? Or might he be swayed at the promise of thirty pieces of silver?

There’s of course a lot here to unpack, but the tl;dr version of what I think happened to them is this: they wanted good fights, fun, and space pals after dropping to 300 people and being alone. We took them in, and they saw the wealth around them, and decided they wanted a part of that. They then were given coalition assets, but remained poor because their head finance guy, Mmarlon, was systematically robbing them and keeping them destitute. So they got resentful, and thought that the solution was to get more stuff, but every time they got more stuff, Mmarlon would just steal more. So it ingrained both money and resentment in the psyche of the alliance.

But this is how we treat allies. Even when they place their own self interest above the good of the coalition, we are patient. Even when they pull out of coalition wars for their own moons, we defend their space. Even when they trash talk other members of the coalition in hopes of getting more resources, we are fair.

As mentioned, Goonswarm leadership knew about all of these issues long before the M-O betrayal. We showed up to defend CO2 time and time again these past few months despite these background issues because that’s who we are, we honor our word--we honor our commitments--even when it is difficult to do so. We have bled and will continue to bleed for our allies, minor and major problems aside, because they would do the same for us.

This is something Gigx, Da Winci, and TheJudge increasingly failed to understand. The Imperium isn’t held together by moons, by isk or by space. It’s held together with intangible bonds forged in blood and sweat, over beers in bars, and on the dance floor in clubs. A CO2 increasingly  consumed with greed lost sight of that.

This also makes the magnitude of their betrayal far worse. As should be obvious from the above log dump, CO2 had plenty of chances to exit the coalition with their honor and their reputation intact. At any point in time, they could have said “you know what, this coalition thing isn’t for us, we’re going to go our own way” and we’d have collectively wished them well. But the promise of a few more coins, a few more votes, was worth more to them than their word or their reputation.

They are traitors and they will forever be traitors--that stain can never be removed. And the wages of treachery are death.

Best possible friends.

Worst possible enemies.