Dreamgrove #feral chat log 6/3

Xanzara - Today at 6:04 AM
	I wonder what they've done to DK's this build
	because they were walking gods last patch
Guiltyas - Today at 6:05 AM
	Not seen any complaints in DK chat. But not been looking too hard so idk
	Not looked at patch notes either
Xanzara - Today at 6:06 AM
	https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/738684173884391424
	look at this convo
	"C.valon ‏@Celestalon 20 minför 20 minuter sedan

	@Binkenstein @CyousKin More varied encounters help blur the line a lot too. Even AoE vs ST isn't clear cut when a boss has phases of both.
	"
	sorry guys..
Guiltyas - Today at 6:08 AM
	Yeah lmao.
	More fights we blow at. /cheer
Celestalon - Today at 6:08 AM
	...?
	What gives you that impression?
Guiltyas - Today at 6:10 AM
	Because any fight with a priority target that has to die quick or sustained aoe is going to be a fight you don't want feral on.
	Because this is the niche both open wounds and our set bonus are pushing us too
	 The shred damage buff went a way to ameliorate it. But feral is still in a terrible place regarding it
Celestalon - Today at 6:11 AM
	I'm curious why you think either of those things are insurmountable weaknesses of Feral.
Tradu - Today at 6:12 AM
	For priority target switching? Both Open Wounds and the set bonuses increase rampup time on new targets, which just adds to the weakness of relying on DoTs for damage
	Compare that to something like a WW monk where you just press buttons and go ham from the start(in Legion that is)
Guiltyas - Today at 6:13 AM
	They're the same weakness feral has now and it's one of the lowest representation specs. Because it's simply not well designed
	And the problems get worse in legion
	Look at bloody slash. The opportunity cost is far higher than say blade storm
	Our talents give us minimal choice.
	Should get @Pawkets @Kojiyama and @Tinderhoof in here too
	In car atm. So struggling to explain thoughts
Celestalon - Today at 6:17 AM
	Just because something isn't a strength of a spec doesn't mean it is (or has to be) so weak that they get benched. None of your concerns seem unsolvable with tuning.
ocedy - Today at 6:17 AM
	j
	honest question, what is our stength by design?
Celestalon - Today at 6:17 AM
	Give good feedback, and support that feedback with data, not cynicism, and it will be heard.
Guiltyas - Today at 6:18 AM
	Our feedback has been ignored since we were released
	Look back at feedback threads.
Tradu - Today at 6:18 AM
	People like Pawkets have been doing that all beta and barely anything has changed
Guiltyas - Today at 6:18 AM
	Pages of good feedback
Xanzara - Today at 6:18 AM
	or atleast not acted on*
Guiltyas - Today at 6:18 AM
	No changes until this build
	Yeah xan thats more fair
	Sec.  I'm going to park
sabretoothed - Today at 6:19 AM
	The feedback threads seem a bit like /dev/null
Guiltyas - Today at 6:20 AM
	The thing is. Unless our strengths are tuned ungodly high. Then we won't be viable
Celestalon - Today at 6:20 AM
	Complaints about being ignored are just about the least useful thing you can say. They even clutter up otherwise potentially useful feedback, hiding it, being a net negative.
Guiltyas - Today at 6:21 AM
	Our aoe is essentially nonexistent
ocedy - Today at 6:21 AM
	Btw what was that bit with negaive crit scaling on sabretooth or bite, don't know which pawkets founds yesterday?
Xanzara - Today at 6:21 AM
	That's negligable in the grand scheme ocedy
Tradu - Today at 6:21 AM
	Not much else to do at this point when all the feedback has been given repeatedly and not been acted on, Sparkledragon
Celestalon - Today at 6:21 AM
	So you're saying that you're either the best, or you're the worst? I suppose that's one viewpoint. Not one I'd ascribe to.
Tradu - Today at 6:22 AM
	When you can't handle the 2 most important kinds of damage in current raid design, yeah, that's a bit of an issue
ocedy - Today at 6:22 AM
	Maybe that view is a bit extreme, but i find it hard to discern what i am actually supposed to be good at
Guiltyas - Today at 6:23 AM
	You could copy paste the feedback thread from the first build with current open wounds to the current feedback thread
	Right. Parked. But on phone.
Celestalon - Today at 6:24 AM
	I'd love to see evidence supporting the exaggerated claims you're making. I see no evidence of these issues. Please post it. Thanks.
Rynek - Today at 6:24 AM
	Have you raided as feral before
Tradu - Today at 6:24 AM
	He has
Guiltyas - Today at 6:24 AM
	You see no evidence that ferals weak aoe, priority burst and cleave will make it extremely weak in a raiding environment.
sabretoothed - Today at 6:25 AM
	Rynek, he has the credentials don't worry about that
Guiltyas - Today at 6:25 AM
	When this is how encounters are designed.
	Yeah avoid attacks on credentials people.
	Celestalon has a strong connection with feral
	Because we disagree now doesn't change much
sabretoothed - Today at 6:25 AM
	There is some constructive feedback there mixed amongst the cynicism however - a couple of issues of contention were addressed in the current build (eg ferocious bite proccing ashamane's bite).
Celestalon - Today at 6:26 AM
	Indeed Sabre. We love when people summarize the constructive feedback into condensed single posts, weeding out the cynicism, BTW.
Guiltyas - Today at 6:27 AM
	There's been a lot of constructive feedback
	Shortbread kraineth and Pawkets have pointed out some real issues.
Celestalon - Today at 6:27 AM
	I'm heading back to work now, but that sort of thing, with evidence, would be great to see posted. Later.
sabretoothed - Today at 6:27 AM
	Celestalon, is the "single target niche" still a thing? Or was it ever?
Xanzara - Today at 6:27 AM
	Later.
sabretoothed - Today at 6:27 AM
	oh, nm.
Rynek - Today at 6:28 AM
	Was it ever a thing?
	😦
Guiltyas - Today at 6:28 AM
	Supposedly. We just weren't good at it
Xanzara - Today at 6:28 AM
	That's not fair
	https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/7#boss=1691
	We were kinda good at it in BRF.
Guiltyas - Today at 6:29 AM
	Fair enough
sabretoothed - Today at 6:30 AM
	My reason for asking was along the lines of, I can see the reasons for niches - they add flavour in that one class might be good at two targets, three targets etc. But "single target" seems to be a an absence of a niche
Guiltyas - Today at 6:30 AM
	That chat didn't give me any optimism for legion then
Tradu - Today at 6:30 AM
	^^
Xanzara - Today at 6:30 AM
	Well, I wasn't expecting to accidentally summon him.
Guiltyas - Today at 6:30 AM
	Who posted that "this is okay" pic
sabretoothed - Today at 6:30 AM
	The one with the dog thing sitting around while everything burns down?
Tradu - Today at 6:30 AM
	idd Xan
Guiltyas - Today at 6:30 AM
	Yup
sabretoothed - Today at 6:30 AM
	Yeah I think that was Xan
	I think I'm going to have to go back a few threads to condense things - a lot of the feedback is repeated seeing as feral was quite static over the past few threads/builds
Celestalon - Today at 6:31 AM
	Nor any optimism for you giving good feedback, Guiltyas. I hope you choose to surprise me, though.
Guiltyas - Today at 6:32 AM
	The problem is that almost all of our design points us toward strong sustained single target Dps but That is a remarkably small area of raiding now
	Tell you what. I'll write up my concerns and get someone on us to post it
	Because I really do love feral. But the attitude of its a tuning problem seems to be a pervasive issue. It's not tuning. It's mechanics.
	The mechanics around how we do our damage don't fit Into the current raiding environment.
	This is the same thing you said about haste. And that barely got any better
	Feral has issues now. And to argue otherwise blows my mind a little.
	In both legion and warlords
	I'm very curious as to how he feels that feral is in a fine state at the moment
Paca - Today at 6:37 AM
	i wonder if this is another issue with their internal simcraft bots are extremely subpar
	i doubt they learned their mistake from wod release and then hfc release
	straight up ignoring simcraft and saying they're wrong