EDWARD PLEASE

<Xangi> Zipzanabananna is really the source of 90% of my frustration.
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<Edward850> Well it's not like you have to make stuff for Zandro.
<Chizuari> you can't have your multiplayer and mod for it too
<Xangi> If I want people to enjoy it in multiplayer I do though.
<Edward850> ZDoom doesn't have multiplayer? This is news to me.
<Chizuari> it doesn't have stable multiplayer
<Ryan_Cordell> Edward850, since I can only assume this might be Samsara or some other project, and Zand is a bit mo- heh since when?
<Edward850> Zdoom doesn't have stable multiplayer? Then what the fuck have I been doing?
<Edward850> Making it worse?
<Ryan_Cordell> me and Hellser (note - slovenian and american) can run GSA for example pretty fine
<Edward850> Oh right, forgot what TerminusEst13's project is. :P
<XutaWoo> it doesn't have public multiplayer
<Chizuari> there's no dependability on scalability - the more people, the worse it gets
<Edward850> That's... kinda a non-issue.
<Edward850> Wait... what?
<XutaWoo> which isn't really a negative point, per se, but it can be for certain projects
<Edward850> Chizuari. Zdoom only needs 300 bytes per node.
<Ryan_Cordell> by public I guess he means "join in at any time"
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<XutaWoo> i doubt gvh would've gotten by on zdoom multiplayer
<Edward850> Honestly, personal prefrence, I consider that a good thing. :P
<Eric> never mind that it only supports 8 players to zandronum's...64? i think
<Edward850> I'm a little surprised it does support 64 players, considering the player masks are only 32bit.
<Edward850> Did it change them or something?
<Chizuari> I'm not sure if that explains why an earlier test with a couple mods caused the master (that was I) to be be jumping all over the place while the slaves ran tolerably, I think it was
<Edward850> No, that'
<Edward850> Mods?
<Chizuari> By the third map, one slave disconnected rather forcibly
<Eric> everyone has to open ports to play zdoom, and it has a tendency to desync after one map in dm or ~3 in co-op
<Chizuari> Vanguard and Russian Overkill
<TerminusEst13> Ryan_Cordell: It's not for Samsara, actually! It's an entirely separate project.
<Edward850> 300 bytes per node, Chizuari. 200 if they aren't doing anything. No more, no less.
<Ryan_Cordell> Aah, good thing I included "or something else" :P
<Chizuari> Actually, only I had to open a port because of the whole master-slave model
<TerminusEst13> Heehh. :p
<Chizuari> Weirdo. My internet isn't bad at all
<Xangi> The issue with ZDoom MP is more that it's not as accessible to the non-initiated as Zandronum's is.
<Eric> games have to be pre-arranged, and if one person drops for some reason the game has to be restarted
<Edward850> There's your problem. The master slave code isn't really made for internet player. Peer-to-peer is vastly better for internet usage.
<Edward850> Eric: Saved games.
<Edward850> Any player can join a saved game.
<Chizuari> And this doesn't cause a desync at least two maps in?
<Edward850> It shouldn't?
<Eric> which does zdoom use by default?
<Chizuari> It's not dependable in the slightest.
<Ryan_Cordell> Hmm
<Edward850> Yes it is? Zdoom is a self simulated environment.
<Edward850> It's MADE to do this.
<Ryan_Cordell> peer to peer is honestly better?
<Eric> because if it's peer-to-peer, it is most definitely not good for internet usage
<Edward850> Latency wise, yes.
<Ryan_Cordell> I wouldn't mind seeing a pros and cons list of m/s vs p2p.
<Eric> i tried playing a game with three people, one not too far from me, and the other on the other side of the continent
<Eric> the game was completely unplayable
<Edward850> I'll do a write up. Too much info for the IRC.
<Eric> and desynced seconds in
<Ryan_Cordell> Ah.
<Chizuari> I also have no idea how well the layer for handling UDP packets is written, though experiences have been less than acceptable
<Eric> the third player had to disconnect and everything went back to normal
<Edward850> Eric: Something you are doing wrong. Take a look: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXq0buJ3S6vNYO37UoQKX6cu4pVo9dyFn
<Eric> what am i doing wrong, then?
<Ryan_Cordell> to be frank the only desync I got with ZDoom multiplayer was either via stupidity (wrong load order etc.) or via accidents (Hellser firing the Vindicator in Russian Overkill). XD
<Edward850> Chizuari: You pulled that out of your ass. Zdoom uses reverse acknollage ment. It knows if a packet is missing.
<Edward850> Ryan_Cordell: What the fuck? Show me Russian Overkill please.
<Chizuari> Granted, it was a long time ago, much less then it was over LAN
<Edward850> A weapon shouldn't desync a game, to put it simply.
<Edward850> There is too much wrong with that statement. :P
<Ryan_Cordell> I don't remember which map it was anymore, it was either the primary or altfire which then caused a desync - it didn't bother us, really! Got one hell of a laugh out of it.
<Xangi> Shouldn't and doesn't are sometimes far apart
<Ryan_Cordell> Otherwise it's actually pretty nice and playable.
<Edward850> Hmm, can you give me a link to the mod?
<Ryan_Cordell> Edward850, to be frank, be glad it's not EDuke32 multiplayer. :P
<Chizuari> ZDoom multiplayer is frankly only reliable the less people you have in it
<Eric> i've never had russian overkill desync when firing weapons
<Ryan_Cordell> it was only something with the vindicator
<Eric> only on map changes
<Edward850> Chizuari:... I just explained this one to you.
<Ryan_Cordell> Edward850, http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=29915
<Eric> Edward850: well, your explanation doesn't seem to fit what actually happens
<Ryan_Cordell> now granted this play session was a good while ago
<Edward850> Eric: Neither does yours.
<Eric> two players is perfectly playable and smoother than zandronum
<Eric> three players is totally unplayable
<Ryan_Cordell> hmm
<Eric> four players doesn't even work at all
<Edward850> Then explain my 5 player Reelism?
<Ryan_Cordell> I have to try out three players at some point actually.
<Eric> granted, one of those four players has the worst internet ever
<Ryan_Cordell> Hellser! We need to find another dood
<Chizuari> I know you're trying to help, and while getting angry doesn't, there are incontrovertible facts here about ZDoom multiplayer
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<Edward850> Chizuari: Difference is, I work on Zdoom's netcode. I know what it is doing.
<Ryan_Cordell> to be frank, constantly picking on a project someone's been trying to improve without being that nice about it doesn't help his mood. :P
<Edward850> Otherwise I wouldn't be posting patches like this. :P http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36327&p=687627&hilit=waiting#p687627
<Chizuari> I will consider the fact that not a single desynchronization happened today an improvement over what I remember from a really long time ago
<Edward850> Holy crap this mod is huge, Ryan_Cordell. :P
<Chizuari> Just the one player disconnected was all, and he lives closer than the other I was playing with
<Edward850> Distince doesn't affect synchronization. Only latency (and thus the active gametic).
<Chizuari> Situation reversed itself at the beginning when the further person never received a go-time packet when everybody connected, but that was also a one-off
<Chizuari> I just wish I wasn't jumping all over the place and having my shots go off after ten seconds whenever I'm the master. :(
<Edward850> I do acknollage that the handshake needs improvment. I didn't write a lick of that code, however. :P
<Edward850> Chizuari: -netmode 0
<Eric> which mode is the default?
<Eric> because i just use gzdoom -host x
<Chizuari> That one, and I'm still not sure how well it will help if packets are dropped often
<Edward850> Packet-server (auto selected when there is 3 players) has the combined latency of the two most latent players to the packet-host.
<Edward850> Wireless connections basically require "-extratic".
<Edward850> Eric: netmode is auto selected to 1 (packet-server) when then is 3 or more players.
<Eric> see, i never even knew that parameter existed
<Edward850> Really? It's in the wiki.
<Xangi> To be fair, the wiki is rather huge
<Eric> http://zdoom.org/wiki/Multiplayer it's not here
<Ryan_Cordell> command line article?
<Edward850> Ding ding ding.
<Ryan_Cordell> for some reason doom connector keeps flashing to mind
<Ryan_Cordell> i think i've seen a description of extratic there but I have no clue
<Eric> okay, it's there
<Edward850> Extratic sends duplicate packet info.
<Edward850> Redundency, but wireless connections sorta need it.
<Eric> however, i think if that parameter is "basically required" for wireless connections, it should probably be mentioned somewhere on the multiplayer article
<Edward850> Not all wireless connections have the problem.
<Eric> well, evidently, if i'm "doing something wrong", this must be it
<Edward850> Just be people who like pushing it. (i.e sititng on the edge of the reception).
<Chizuari> I was too playing with extratic enabled today, and my connection to the router out is wireless, so bah
<Edward850> Chizuari: You mentioned GZdoom before, correct?
<Xangi> Perhaps someone should put a "Multiplayer problems? Check Here" section on the wiki in huge bolded letters
<Edward850> Not yet. :P
<Chizuari> Yeah, gzdoom-g1.8.1-175-gc88bf31
<Edward850> Hmm, deffinantly a git build.
<Edward850> I wonder if dynamic lights are still causing problems.
<Edward850> I honestly don't know why Graf wrote them the way he does.
<Chizuari> I just assumed it was the latest because Pillow linked me (too lazy to go grab it myself)
<Chizuari> This is still a pretty good excuse to try GSA tomorrow.
<Edward850> It latest enough, being a GIT build.
<Edward850> The Dynamic light "fix" was pre GIT.
<Ryan_Cordell> we haven't tested any of the newer versions lately though
<Chizuari> As in bleeding edge fresh-off-the-griddle latest
<Chizuari> Yeah, but it doesn't work with the latest stable so you guys are too far ahead
<Ryan_Cordell> especially with the much newer stuff that's been added, and with Hellser now busy working on a different mod for fun
<Ryan_Cordell> Chizuari, yeah, we always go for SVN
<Ryan_Cordell> in fact, I have to add +NOFALLFORWARD at some point since Crash's incediary rifle always makes enemies charge you even faster aaaaaaaa
<Ryan_Cordell> *incendiary
<Xangi> I'm very anxious to get that Flag as well
<Ryan_Cordell> I just haven't checked if GZD updated yet so *shrug!*
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<Edward850> Ryan_Cordell: Peer-to-peer is faster but more comples network wise, as all nodes need to be able to contact eachother, otherwise the game will stall first/second tic (depending on who you are).  Packet-server is slower but all connected nodes only need to feed one out stream to the packet host. Simpler to set up but internet latency is enough to make it neigh unplayable.
<Edward850> *complex
<Ryan_Cordell> Ahh.
<Edward850> Peer-to-peer has one exception: 2 player games only need to have the handshake host contactable to work, due to router training.
<Edward850> Infact, forcing packet-server for 2 player games is pointless. It won't do anything different and just results in wasting an extra byte.
<Edward850> Per packet, that is.
<Edward850> Also, Zdoom's netcode has the standard lockstep anomoly: Latency is reversed. The slowest player moves first, basically.
<Ryan_Cordell> Hear that Hellser? No host advantage! XD
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<Edward850> Anyway, russian overkill downloaded. Lets see if it does anything stupid code wise.
<Ryan_Cordell> I can imagine Crash is going to be a nightmare in DM if she connects with her Wavegun altfire..
<Edward850> Just fyi: RNG calls means nothing to playsim sync, as they are part of it in the first place. Unless you are talking about Zandro. :P
<Edward850> Wow. No calls to either GetCVAR or ScreenWidth/Height. That answers that question :P
<Edward850> Second test: Play until it breaks. :P
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<Hellser> I rap so hot.. I spit Yoga Fire!
<Edward850> Ryan_Cordell: As expected, playsim survives Vindicator.
<Edward850> So that's good news. I don't have to spend 5 hours fixing something. Fucking Timefreezesphere.
<Ryan_Cordell> I ain't saying it was a constant thing, but it happened at that specific time with that specific weapon, so.. =P
<Edward850> Something does seem to happen on map changes. I'm not sure what, why, how and why it's so god-damned uncommon.
<Edward850> All I do know is that it breaks something that takes a few minutes to finally break the game state.<Edward850> I think one day I'm going to have to crank the gamestate checksum up to 11 and see what happens.
<Ryan_Cordell> Hmm
<Edward850> At the moment is just an SWORD (short) of player pos data + 4 RNG tables.
<Edward850> I also wonder if it has anything to do with the demo sync bug that currently exists.
<Ryan_Cordell> .. I'm really tempted to take this fscking important notice sticker off my laptop since it's so annoying right now. And it's only about ergonomic use.
<Edward850> Important notice: Never remove this notice.
<Ryan_Cordell> Hey Hellser?
<Ryan_Cordell> http://www.pleated-jeans.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/tumblr_ml1ipxLOW21r868elo1_400.gif UWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHEEEHEEE [/Russian Overkill]

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