uiop: Truth and Democracy

SimpleJak
1 - uiop, there are no human races
05:23:59 uiop
well i just woke up but i see your nickname scrolling 2 hours ago
05:24:09 SimpleJak
2 - races are intersubjective realities created by our pre-scientific ancestors who were much dumber than us
05:24:20 uiop
what did i say about race
05:24:21
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05:24:22 SimpleJak
3 - fr33d0g was taught about these racial intersubjective realities
05:24:35 uiop
fr33d0g - are you a night worker
05:24:37 SimpleJak
4 - in these ISRs, fr33d0g is 'white'
05:24:48 SimpleJak
5 - fr33d0g is very proud of being 'white'
05:24:57 SimpleJak
Isn't that pathetic.
05:24:58
ⓘ useful set -t
05:24:58 uiop
you ever listen to that bog seger song
05:25:08 uiop
working on some night moves
05:25:33
ⓘ montaigne set +l 129
05:25:59 uiop
SimpleJak - why were you addressing race comments to my nick
05:26:04 uiop
just making conversation?
05:26:18 SimpleJak
Correct.
05:26:26 SimpleJak
fr33d0g left earlier feeling high about being 'white'
05:26:47 SimpleJak
One of the major psychic challenges in his life is coming to grips with feeling it's okay to be proud about being 'whtie'
05:27:02 SimpleJak
And much of the shame and rage he has about that allows him to be manipulated by Russians and wealthy Americans
05:27:09 SimpleJak
He's actually entirely domesticated at this point
05:27:29 SimpleJak
He'll spend his life fighting battles of free speech issues and SJWs on campuses while the rich plunder his country
05:27:43 uiop
we can say a lot about how races and genders are crude false constructs but most of the time people are largely responding to signals they get from other people about their own identities, for better or worse
05:28:29 uiop
some people in some situations feel oppressed by these messages, and other people in other situations feel a boon from them
05:28:47 uiop
the latter are less likely to feel motivated to deconstruct them
05:29:02 uiop
i don't think it's super mysterious
05:29:30 CUPoGITMO
the under 35 crowd in the usa doesn't seem to have nearly the problem in getting along with other races without thinking too much about it
05:30:23 SimpleJak
There are no human races
05:30:26 uiop
all my life i rarely can remember situations where people were overtly not getting along because of race
05:30:28 SimpleJak
This has been known since the 1970s
05:30:31 SimpleJak
It's currently 2017
05:30:38 SimpleJak
Time to update the ol' worldview
05:30:39 uiop
but i guess in subtle ways they were in strife
05:31:01 SimpleJak
uiop, there are baboons on in Africa worrying about some hyena in the bush
05:31:16 CUPoGITMO
being white's fine too, no reason to bash someone simply for being white, most caucs are great just like most darker arabs
05:31:17 SimpleJak
It's important to them, and that's cool, but sometimes it's important to point out they're just baboons worrying about hyenas in the bush
05:31:32 SimpleJak
And sometimes it's important to point out that there are a lot of people entirely dominated by race dreams
05:31:36 SimpleJak
Which is pathetic
05:31:49 SimpleJak
Imagine thinking there is a white race, right
05:31:52 uiop
i'm not a supporter of smug, snide, sneering self-identified progressive attitudes
05:31:55 SimpleJak
And that this white race is sort of European
05:32:00 SimpleJak
And then it's Caucasian
05:32:02 CUPoGITMO
baboons have quite a set of chompers and move vertically far better than their pack of hyena counterparts
05:32:03 uiop
i'm into clear talk from all kinds of people
05:32:09 SimpleJak
After the Caucaus mountains in Armenia
05:32:11 SimpleJak
Makes sense
05:32:24 CUPoGITMO
not to mention that primate to hound differential in tactic
05:32:31 uiop
as soon as it gets derisive and leaning toward "basket of deplorables" talk or calling people dummies, i stop supporting it
05:32:44 CUPoGITMO
sort of like the roger stone vs dnc differential
05:32:45 uiop
and begin to support the oppression of such speakers
05:32:55 uiop
including their execution
05:33:02 SimpleJak
uiop, the American Right is entirely obsessed with political correctness
05:33:15 SimpleJak
Pretending that the American Right isn't largely a basket of deplorables is political correctness
05:33:15 uiop
and possibly urinating in their mouths
05:33:20 SimpleJak
That culture is trash
05:33:32 SimpleJak
They're incredibly dumb, fearful, and hate Western values
05:33:59 SimpleJak
They think Robert E. Lee is about the same as Washington
05:34:00 uiop
i don't support your attitude
05:34:00 CUPoGITMO
those suffering putin derrangement syndrome symptoms from their ptsd after losing should consider seriously whether staying bunched in the basket of delusionals is personally productive or whether it's way past time to form a new party and rid selves of dnc mired corruption
05:34:05
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05:34:31 SimpleJak
uiop, would you prefer I was politically correct and lied that they had economic anxiety
05:34:37 SimpleJak
When all the data indicates that isn't true
05:34:45 SimpleJak
Or that the core of the GOP is about white supremacy
05:34:50 SimpleJak
Would that be more pleasant
05:34:57 uiop
you're not really even speaking frankly right now
05:35:10 SimpleJak
I'm not speaking frankly
05:35:25 SimpleJak
I think that was incoherent
05:35:39 SimpleJak
A majority of GOP voters think colleges are bad for the nation
05:35:43 apestate
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/358745-george-w-bush-im-worried-that-i-will-be-the-...
05:35:54 SimpleJak
A majority of GOP voters support Trump even if he is guilty of collusion with Russia
05:35:59 uiop
to be more clear you should say "would you rather i withheld my monkey combat derision"
05:36:04 SimpleJak
A majority of GOP voters support Trump in suspending the 2020 electoin
05:36:14 uiop
and it would be better if you did, yeah
05:36:47 SimpleJak
You appear to exist in a factionalist frame
05:37:03 SimpleJak
But, you're not a direct factionalist, so you combat the harmful factionalism by the false balance narrative
05:37:12 SimpleJak
The various sides aren't too different from each other
05:37:21 SimpleJak
No scientific data supports that position
05:37:39 SimpleJak
But I guess it's emotionally comforting to believe that 35% of the nation doesn't hate American democracy
05:38:05 uiop
SimpleJak is again being disingenuous
05:38:29 uiop
SimpleJak - i doubt you are particularly wedded to democracy
05:38:31 howto
-_-
05:38:44 uiop
but for some reason you're trying to deride others who aren't either
05:38:51 uiop
in reality nobody cares about democracy
05:39:02 uiop
very few people anyway
05:39:17
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05:39:25 uiop
almost all people only care about democracy when the outcomes support their worldview
05:40:25 SimpleJak
uiop, I have a thought experiment for you
05:40:54 SimpleJak
1 - there are two men, man A and man B. Man B hates man A for reasons he thinks are very important (related to religion, or race, etc)
05:41:25 SimpleJak
2 - man B is pretty sure it's a great idea to bash in the head of the child of man A for this reason. man B announces, I'm going to walk across this room, grab that rock there, and then bash in the head of the child of man A
05:41:34 SimpleJak
Question 1: Is this a valid political worldview by man B?
05:42:09 uiop
of course
05:42:23 uiop
"political worldview" can mean anything
05:42:24 SimpleJak
It's valid to bash in the heads of children of political opponents?
05:43:18 howto
^_^
05:43:21 uiop
"valid" is not a precise category
05:43:36 uiop
by default any worldview is valid
05:43:46 SimpleJak
It's obviously invalid in the West to bash in the heads of the children of political opponents
05:43:54 SimpleJak
And if you do this, the system is authorized to use force to prevent this
05:44:04 SimpleJak
And if you say, But those are my beliefs!, the state will disregard and overrule
ⓘ apestate changed the topic to: Trump: I'll be proven innocent if Mueller is replaced by Sean Hannity.
05:44:14
ⓘ useful set +t
05:44:19 SimpleJak
So, I will proceed
05:44:24 uiop
you should say clearly what you want to say instead of saying it vaguely in an attempt to co-opt language more broadly
05:44:33 uiop
i don't find that clear or frank discussion
05:44:57 SimpleJak
3 - man B now never says he is going to bash in the heads of children of man A. Now, man B just says that he is very pro-business and one of his business buddies has this mine and they need to dump heavy metals into a river, because it's very cheap
05:45:16 uiop
if you want to say "is it within the scope of modern western values to kill the children of your political opponents" we can say no
05:45:17 SimpleJak
4 - scientists investigate this plan and discover it will lead to the heavy metal poisoning of 752 children in the nearby river basin
05:45:37 SimpleJak
Question 2: Is man B's proposal substantially different than his first proposed worldview?
05:45:51 uiop
but you are purposely being sort of hazy because you want to find a logic that "invalidates" your opponents
05:45:55 uiop
it's a bad path
05:46:00 uiop
pointless
05:46:15 SimpleJak
It appears you have no responses to my content, but you are willing to guess at my intentions
05:46:21 SimpleJak
2500 years of philosophy says that's incorrect
05:46:47 SimpleJak
No, the proposal to dump heavy metals into the river is not substantially different than bashing in the heads of children with rocks
05:47:03 SimpleJak
And the state should be able to use force to override anybody who makes that proposal
05:47:16 SimpleJak
And if somebody says, You're violating my democratic rights!, they will be ignored
05:47:22 SimpleJak
So, I will proceed
05:47:33 uiop
part of "western values" is that authority tends to be vetted and cross vetted and established by consensus - broadly part of the whole democratic concept
05:47:48 uiop
and that is exactly the problem with saying "scientists discover"
05:47:53 SimpleJak
5 - A group of voters band together and call themselves the GOP. They consume political messaging from 1996-2017 that construct a conspiratorial worldview about the harm of people not like them
05:48:39 SimpleJak
6 - cognitive scientists investigate the effects on minds when they consume this messaging for 21 years. scientists report that it shuts down all critical thinking ability and creates fear-based reactions that prevent the person from meaningfully assessing reality
05:48:47 uiop
scientists are not the final arbiter of truth in "the west"
05:48:48 uiop
nobody is
05:49:04 SimpleJak
Is there any truth in the west, uiop?
05:49:18 uiop
no
05:49:23 uiop
no there isn't.
05:50:04 uiop
your fetish for scientific authority is actually deeply anti-western
05:50:14
ⓘ useful set -t
05:50:17 SimpleJak
Question 3: People in this hysterical worldview created by 21 years of Fox News, Alex Jones, and Rush Limbaugh tell us we need to conspire with Russia in order to protect our Christian nation
05:50:33 SimpleJak
Should their viewpoints be considered valid political worldviews?
05:50:44 uiop
as is the more low key center-left fixation on "fact checking", which is part of the same impulse
05:50:56 SimpleJak
uiop, was the Rwandan genocide wrong?
05:50:57 howto
shit!
05:50:59 howto
slept through my alarm :<
05:51:17 uiop
i'm not able to address that kind of question, SimpleJak
05:51:25 SimpleJak
why
05:51:33 SimpleJak
What would a speaker need that you do not have
05:51:46 uiop
more precise language
05:52:01 uiop
"wrong" is a coercive, magical word
05:52:47 SimpleJak
uiop, do humans have any preferred physiological states
05:53:49 uiop
i know i do
05:54:34 SimpleJak
uiop, do you think there exist any humans besides yourself
05:55:38 uiop
why even ask such a question
05:55:50 SimpleJak
To assess your belief system
05:56:02 SimpleJak
I lost interest in this conversation, based off your answers
05:56:05 SimpleJak
Thank you