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  1.  
  2. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  3. YEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS
  4. ARE YOU READY FOR THEJETFUEL KNOWLEDGE BOMBS
  5. Reverie - 09/26/2016
  6. I'll get the balloons
  7. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  8. Yay
  9. chins - 09/26/2016
  10. How heavy are the balloons
  11. Ragoo - 09/26/2016
  12. Yay, a match-up I know little about.
  13. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  14. 3 inches
  15. Mr. L - 09/26/2016
  16. Hi how are yayh
  17. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  18. I used to be the god of this MU
  19. Reverie - 09/26/2016
  20. 60
  21. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  22. Then I quit marth
  23. Mr. L - 09/26/2016
  24. my worst match-up. Even worse if I am playing peach so I can eat some info
  25. (i is poof0
  26. TMP | ? - 09/26/2016
  27. Lol I'm in both of these discords all ready
  28. Ragoo - 09/26/2016
  29. It really just seems that I haven't found the spacing in this one since I'm not too familiar with puffs drift and aerial hitboxes
  30.  
  31. Where I would normally be safe to shield doesn't hold true in this one
  32. BairGod | Melody - 09/26/2016
  33. I hate this MU
  34. Ragoo - 09/26/2016
  35. As far as Tai's guide suggests, keep you fairs oos handy, use Laggy grabs and profit off of them and keep puff above you since there isn't much danger on her above you besides a dair unawares(edited)
  36. Versed || OddishGuy - 09/26/2016
  37. @Orlando
  38. 29.25|wizrad - 09/26/2016
  39. Why isn't Mada here smh
  40. Reverie - 09/26/2016
  41. I can vouch for keeping them above you. Any puffs I have managed to get some experience with hate not being able to get down and up tilt can kill pretty well. I think it's really important to learn to count jumps
  42. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  43. You should count puffs jumps regardless of who you are
  44. 29.25|wizrad - 09/26/2016
  45. Also be aware that they get shorter with each jump
  46. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  47. When jumps run out she has to come down and you can punish that
  48. Ragoo - 09/26/2016
  49. Is it visually noticeable per each jump?
  50. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  51. Yeah it is
  52. rd1027 - 09/26/2016
  53. yup
  54. learning how to fade double fair oos is really useful in this
  55. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  56. Also when you get uptilt/rested spam sideb
  57. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  58. Also if puff crouches dtilt is amazingly good
  59. rd1027 - 09/26/2016
  60. is up tilt rest true
  61. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  62. small thing but if puff isnt good about hitting the combo you can get out
  63. depends on percent/di but stops altogether at like 20
  64. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  65. Uptilt rest may be true
  66. Idk for sure
  67. Reverie - 09/26/2016
  68. Calling out crouches is fun
  69. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  70. I think no di and di in will do iy
  71. Lol call out the crouch with tipper fsmash
  72. rd1027 - 09/26/2016
  73. Hmm I've always wondered if I could get out of it
  74. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  75. when you get uptilted DI either full above or full infront of her
  76. Ragoo - 09/26/2016
  77. Remind me how much damage utilt with puff does. I wanna remember hitlag on that
  78. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  79. 7 iirc?
  80. dont quote me on that
  81. 9 on ground hitbox, 8 on second hb
  82. just checked
  83. Reverie - 09/26/2016
  84. "7iirc?" - Juanpi
  85. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  86. FeelsBadMan
  87. rd1027 - 09/26/2016
  88. 9% clean 8% late
  89. well it could do 7% if its stale
  90. so HE'S NOT WRONG
  91. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  92. Ayyy
  93. Ragoo - 09/26/2016
  94. So like 5-6 frames of lag. Which means at higher percents that side b thing is probably true
  95. rd1027 - 09/26/2016
  96. I always thought of up tilt rest as a low/mid % thing anyways
  97. anything else and I think you can jump out
  98. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  99. You can jump out starting low 20s
  100. unless you di terribly
  101. mashing sideb is better than mashing jump tho
  102. good di if you get rested + dont burn jump
  103. Puff punishes aerial marth with no jump really hard
  104. rd1027 - 09/26/2016
  105. yeah that's true
  106. but if they just go for the rest
  107. ez punish
  108. Ragoo - 09/26/2016
  109. I imagine it would be a better positioning thing to use the side b and immediately act with a strong move. As opposed to jumping out and having puff on your ass
  110. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  111. ^
  112. rd1027 - 09/26/2016
  113. yeah also true
  114. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  115. also marth can sdi puff's jab reset up pretty reliably
  116. haven't labbed or anything but solely based on observation
  117. chins - 09/26/2016
  118. Hey guys, what should I do if a puff fades back with nair?
  119. punish with uptilt or ftilt?
  120. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  121. Depends on spacing
  122. rd1027 - 09/26/2016
  123. uptilt might not reach
  124. 29.25|wizrad - 09/26/2016
  125. Fsmash Kappa
  126. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  127. if shes straight above you uptilt
  128. rd1027 - 09/26/2016
  129. it doesn't reach too far ahead of him
  130. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  131. if she hits your shield and fades back chase with fair oos
  132. if she hits your shield and crouches below you, dair oos
  133. rd1027 - 09/26/2016
  134. ftilt scoops from below so I dont think that's good either
  135. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  136. Yiu can always dash
  137. chins - 09/26/2016
  138. thanks guys
  139. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  140. Comboing puff is really cool
  141. Fthrow dair is so sick to land
  142. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  143. isn't dair OoS vs crouch fame perfect?
  144. Reverie - 09/26/2016
  145. ooooh shit it's dat alexpuffboi
  146. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  147. well depends what puff does
  148. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  149. You mean for dair oos to hit the crouch?
  150. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  151. yes
  152. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  153. If puff crouches and waits for marth to grab, dair oos does hit from sh
  154. also depends on the part of the crouch anim
  155. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  156. reverie I don't know who you are but my brain is telling me you're really good at melee lol
  157. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  158. Lol he has that vibe
  159. Mr. L - 09/26/2016
  160. How do I not get hit by sword
  161. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  162. ^
  163. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  164. Yeh its probably pretty tight to hit them
  165. Ragoo - 09/26/2016
  166. It's that professional character
  167. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  168. Its the hotdogs
  169. STNK | Dizzy Pink - 09/26/2016
  170. AYY
  171. it's the puffcord
  172. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  173. also how do i not get chaingrabbed by marth
  174. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  175. Lol the cg isnt that good
  176. Reverie - 09/26/2016
  177. Mixup DI
  178. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  179. Just mix dis
  180. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  181. is it a straight 50/50 di mixup?
  182. Reverie - 09/26/2016
  183. I hate the cg it's too risky
  184. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  185. Yeh
  186. You miss a grab and get rested and die
  187. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  188. so its just me being bad then
  189. fair enough
  190. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  191. Just do throw into fair and stuff
  192. Anythrow true combos into positioning which is good to rememeber
  193. Geruyop - 09/26/2016
  194. Dont hold in for f throw dont hold away for d throw
  195. Right?
  196. Reverie - 09/26/2016
  197. My favorite "fuck you puff" is dthrow at ~70% straight into fsmash
  198. STNK | Dizzy Pink - 09/26/2016
  199. that works on most if they don't tech or tech in place
  200. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  201. Hey Dizzy
  202. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  203. You can fsmash before they tech
  204. STNK | Dizzy Pink - 09/26/2016
  205. hey numbers
  206. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  207. Long time no see
  208. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  209. NUMBERS GUY
  210. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  211. Puff JMU bby
  212. Geruyop - 09/26/2016
  213. How is runaway bair as marth in this mu
  214. I love bair
  215. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  216. Wait r u numbers guy
  217. STNK | Dizzy Pink - 09/26/2016
  218. oh were you a person i played project m wifi with?
  219. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  220. Yes, no
  221. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  222. Bair is meh because it comes from below
  223. So u r numbers guy
  224. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  225. Also Jigg's bair outranges it
  226. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  227. What is ur current reddit account
  228. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  229. GodOfNumbers
  230. STNK | Dizzy Pink - 09/26/2016
  231. so where do i know you from?
  232. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  233. Jiggscord
  234. ofc
  235. STNK | Dizzy Pink - 09/26/2016
  236. oh ok
  237. Ragoo - 09/26/2016
  238. Enough kb to be used as a get off me. But still not the best retreating option
  239.  
  240. STNK | Dizzy Pink - 09/26/2016
  241. i don't always remember everyone i meet
  242. TheJetFuel - 09/26/2016
  243. Wait yiure not numbers guy
  244. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  245. Hmm?
  246. You question my namesake?
  247. STNK | Dizzy Pink - 09/26/2016
  248. i don't even know the relevance of that name
  249. Ragoo - 09/26/2016
  250. Ssbm reddit things
  251. STNK | Dizzy Pink - 09/26/2016
  252. is he a big puff or something?
  253. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  254. Let's keep this channel relevant to the matchup. Also do Puff mains get a pink role?
  255. I mod the Puffcord
  256. Geruyop - 09/26/2016
  257. Jiggs bair outranges marth bair?
  258. Wtf
  259. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  260. I'm pretty sure
  261. Ragoo - 09/26/2016
  262. Inb4 Puff Bair gif
  263. Reverie - 09/26/2016
  264. Jiggs bair outranges a whole lot
  265. Geruyop - 09/26/2016
  266. I will look at that
  267. STNK | Dizzy Pink - 09/26/2016
  268. i think it does in effective range, but maybe not beat the widest part of marth bair
  269. Geruyop - 09/26/2016
  270. Gotta look at marth bair again
  271. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  272. idk, it's easy to fade back and bair against a marth bair through a platform or something
  273. Ragoo - 09/26/2016
  274. And Puff Bair has IASA, fuck
  275. TIL
  276. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  277. Yeah
  278. puff can sh bair double ju,p
  279. jump*
  280. its a 3f window but is doable
  281. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  282. pretty good against someone who doesn't consistently tech
  283. and against those who do if you space correctly
  284. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  285. Also i like to sh bair dj ac dair vs marth
  286. landing with dair behind him feels really good
  287. STNK | Dizzy Pink - 09/26/2016
  288. jiggs has an autocancel on dair?
  289. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  290. Yeah
  291. STNK | Dizzy Pink - 09/26/2016
  292. i never knew that
  293. is it a setup thing, or can it be done on reflex?
  294. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  295. It's a frame window
  296. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  297. its a late window
  298. like after the last hitbox
  299. so you cant ac from short hop
  300. STNK | Dizzy Pink - 09/26/2016
  301. how big is the window?
  302. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  303. pretty big
  304. rarely if ever miss it once you know the timing
  305. Ragoo - 09/26/2016
  306. That explains a lot of how she can land and move with ease on platforms
  307. STNK | Dizzy Pink - 09/26/2016
  308. wow ok, dair usmash just got easier
  309. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  310. Also the broken rest setup that hbox does with dair
  311. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  312. Doesnt combo into fsmash
  313. you have to land into em with dair to combo i to anything
  314. upsmash* woops
  315. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  316. dair can combo into rest
  317. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  318. thats only if you get spikestun
  319. which requires you landing into the,
  320. Geruyop - 09/26/2016
  321. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/230027788021792769/230037507029467136/Screenshot_2016-09-26-11-42-18.png
  322. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/230027788021792769/230037516420382721/Screenshot_2016-09-26-11-43-31.png
  323.  
  324. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  325. yea, but on marth it's not hard
  326. he's tall
  327. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  328. yeah its hella easy on tall charscters
  329. Ragoo - 09/26/2016
  330. Easier or more difficult to SDI then a fox drill?
  331. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  332. And g&w for whatever reason
  333. roughly the same
  334. STNK | Dizzy Pink - 09/26/2016
  335. i should get frame melee, is it for android?
  336. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  337. yes
  338. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  339. dair AC is useless
  340. not until 39 which is > 27+15
  341. STNK | Dizzy Pink - 09/26/2016
  342. getting it now
  343. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  344. Except puff has a bigger window to grab after drill than fox does
  345. at spikestun %s
  346. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  347. spikestun doesn't influence hitstun, only animation
  348. so it only matters if you intend to raw rest
  349. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  350. yea, you have to l-cancel it most of the time
  351. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  352. hbox prefers to wait until hitstun is high enough that he can jump rest and not depend on spikestun
  353. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  354. i just remember that you cant drill-grab until like 40s v most characters
  355. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  356. or dair to dair to dair to upsmash lol
  357. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  358. and thats whenspikestun starts top
  359. Too*
  360. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  361. can't true grab until 60-70 usually
  362. spikestun starts at 45 or so
  363. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  364. good to know
  365. Is the true grab % based on character weight?
  366. or is it the same for everyone
  367. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  368. weight
  369. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  370. What's true grab?
  371. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  372. grab that can't be buffer spotdodged
  373. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  374. So if a character spotdodges they'll be grabbed no matter what at a certain percentage?
  375. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  376. Ye
  377. wouldnt it be afew percent earlier since spotdodge has 2 frame startup?
  378. or is that already accounted for
  379. @alex
  380. Mr. L - 09/26/2016
  381. okey dont his hour of hwa
  382. done*
  383. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  384. um, I have a chart with that already accounted for but I haven't memorized it lol
  385. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  386. I just remember it's usually 60-70
  387. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  388. got you
  389. i'
  390. i'll look that up later
  391. Mr. L - 09/26/2016
  392. As puff, what should I use to punish after I CC a fair.
  393. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  394. probably crouch grab
  395. most of the time
  396. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  397. rising or falling?
  398. Mr. L - 09/26/2016
  399. Alright, and then what throw and followups do I use if I get a grab?
  400. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  401. I love dthrow in this matchup
  402. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  403. instinct says down throw
  404. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  405. bcs run-sh-rising pound trades with the fair that every marth loves to do
  406. GodOfNumbers - 09/26/2016
  407. followed by upairs and bairs
  408. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  409. and if he DIs wrong just rest lol
  410. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  411. dthrow unless it's an edgeguard from f/bthrow
  412. Mr. L - 09/26/2016
  413. Marth is restable out of dthrow?
  414. Thouhgt marth didnt have the right weight for rest
  415. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  416. most often a techchase or the situation juanpi said(edited)
  417. Mr. L - 09/26/2016
  418. is my goal in general to whiff punsih? Like I would rather not get hit by a fair or dtilt?
  419. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  420. puff's first priority is to get marth into the corner so that he can't whiff punish you
  421. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  422. If he doesnt DI away
  423. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  424. his dash back is really amazing in this MU
  425. Juanpi - 09/26/2016
  426. fullhop-dj into him-rest
  427. Nevy - 09/26/2016
  428. ...puff is shit mu is 0-1,000,000 in Marth's favor. Kappa
  429. Bojangles4th - 09/26/2016
  430. whuchu talkin about
  431. Marf is free
  432. at least 90% of the players who use him are KappaRoss
  433. ¿Query? - 09/26/2016
  434. puff marth mu is hard
  435. for me
  436. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  437. obligatory jmu meme
  438. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/230027788021792769/230052825764331521/notices_ur_grab.jpg
  439. $etchi - 09/26/2016
  440. lol
  441. dash grab deep in puff tends to do it
  442. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  443. that being said i think puff crouching directly next to marth is one of her strongest postions in this matchup
  444. the others being puff with stage control vs marth at the edge and puff on side platform and marth in center
  445. $etchi - 09/26/2016
  446. When Puff is knocked down by it, SH backwards dair can be good in response to a Puff crouching close to you
  447. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  448. marths best positions are against a puff holding ledge, directly underneath puff when shes on platform, anywhere under puff on FD, and the range immediately at tipper dtilt while both are on the ground
  449. imo
  450. ¿Query? - 09/26/2016
  451. puff on ledge vs marth sucks
  452. for puff
  453. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  454. puff on ledge in general sucks
  455. lol
  456. planking is 100% a meme
  457. ¿Query? - 09/26/2016
  458. yeah but for marth it's mega bad
  459. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  460. ^
  461. ¿Query? - 09/26/2016
  462. puff on ledge with the stock lead can work sometimes
  463. but vs marth not even a chancr
  464. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  465. not against fox and marth especially
  466. ¿Query? - 09/26/2016
  467. *chance
  468. fox it can work if you catch them pre-shine but yeah
  469. $etchi - 09/26/2016
  470. Her ledgestalls aren't that good if they notice the holes in them
  471. ¿Query? - 09/26/2016
  472. it can work if you're like
  473. $etchi - 09/26/2016
  474. and getting back on will be difficult for her
  475. ¿Query? - 09/26/2016
  476. up vs falco on pokemon stadium or something
  477. $etchi - 09/26/2016
  478. What's the galint on Puff's ledgedash again?
  479. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  480. what do you guys feel about their best positions though? agree/disagree with what i posted?
  481. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  482. puff on side plat is significantly trickier on FoD
  483. ¿Query? - 09/26/2016
  484. i think if we're recovering low marth is in a good position
  485. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  486. at normal platform height its the same
  487. $etchi - 09/26/2016
  488. nvm found it myself
  489. Puff has 9 frames galint from ledgedash
  490. that's p cool
  491. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  492. yeah recover high except as a high risk high reward mixup
  493. well
  494. medium reward
  495. theGravyTrainTTK - 09/26/2016
  496. So is it just me or is this channel not saving from the very beginning
  497. ¿Query? - 09/26/2016
  498. we can't really mix in pound to put him behind us or anything
  499. because sword
  500. theGravyTrainTTK - 09/26/2016
  501. Every time I come back in it only has the past 50 messages or so
  502. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  503. puff can mix in pound. I haven't decided whether it's the best idea or not but if puff uses fadeback empty and fade in pound it seems like it's a straight 50/50
  504. theGravyTrainTTK - 09/26/2016
  505. Nvmd
  506. ¿Query? - 09/26/2016
  507. vs marth?
  508. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  509. yeah
  510. ¿Query? - 09/26/2016
  511. hmnn
  512. i might try
  513. also as a side note i see a lot of marths trying to charge shield breaker late when they can't punish rest early enough and getting weak 7% shield breakers
  514. don't do that lol
  515. $etchi - 09/26/2016
  516. I remember something
  517. ¿Query? - 09/26/2016
  518. if you have time shield breaker if not do something better
  519. $etchi - 09/26/2016
  520. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqLErmrJ9xE
  521. YouTube
  522. Zaheer's Air Scooter
  523. Tipper Dsmash Rest Punish Setup on Jigglypuff
  524. lool
  525. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  526. comes out f17 factoring jumpsquat
  527. on reaction thats 5f of drift to position yourself
  528. is that a good enough range to be useful
  529. *pound i mean
  530. alexspuffstuff - 09/26/2016
  531. I meant as a recovery
  532. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  533. ohhhh
  534. lol
  535. ¿Query? - 09/26/2016
  536. yeah
  537. pound can switch you into the advantageous position but it's very risky
  538. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  539. btw
  540. im east coast with good internet
  541. ¿Query? - 09/26/2016
  542. rollout recovery
  543. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  544. cant netplay today but if anyones interested later in the week(edited)
  545. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  546. hmu
  547. this came up in the social and most didnt know so i'll post here
  548. puff can sing sweetspot ledge against marth dtilt
  549. just a tidbit i thought you might like to know
  550. Mr. L - 09/26/2016
  551. Is the most disrespectful thing puff can do rollout edgeguard?
  552. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  553. no she can rest marth who whiffs sh fair drift in and doesn't fair again
  554. PurpleDolphin - 09/26/2016
  555. What do marths do that give puffs a hard time
  556. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  557. lol
  558. uhh
  559. dtilt
  560. PurpleDolphin - 09/26/2016
  561. Cant you space bair over dtilt tho
  562. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  563. well yeah thats the mixup
  564. if we sh bair and you dash back you get a grab lol
  565. puff is extremely vulnerable between bairs
  566. Mr. L - 09/26/2016
  567. My least favourite thing that marth players do is use their sword
  568. PurpleDolphin - 09/26/2016
  569. Oh yeah can we archive these JMUs like the peach discord did? So make it only for viewing so we can reference stuff at a later date
  570. @Cheetah164 ill play you later this week im EC too
  571. Cheetah164 - 09/26/2016
  572. sick
  573. i'm still learning claw so its not gonna be the best practice
  574. my movement wont be that good
  575. but i'd love to play
  576. BairGod | Melody - 09/26/2016
  577. Claw messes your jumps up when you switch back to normal grip
  578. September 27, 2016
  579. devin - 09/27/2016
  580. hi regular chris
  581. ludwig - 09/27/2016
  582. What do most marth mains want in terms of positioning in relation to puff?
  583. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  584. To be as far away from offstage as possible
  585. BairGod | Melody - 09/27/2016
  586. Marth wants central stage control
  587. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  588. Yeah mostly because marth offstage is dead vs puff
  589. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  590. hi devin
  591. lol
  592. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  593. @Reverie naa, Marth can recover against Puff if his mixups are good
  594. and you don't waste your double jump early like an idiot :3
  595. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  596. is there a flowchart for edgeguarding puff as marth?
  597. sec i'll post the vice versa
  598. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  599. You know what I mean. In general you're very likely to die lol
  600. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  601. marth edgeguard (via hbox)
  602. a little weird but it just sort of works
  603.  
  604. 1. aim to grab ledge as he falls below ledge height. If he sideBs you’ll have inv
  605. 2. immediately let go, jump backwards with fair (this input is a little hard). If he jumps this will stuff it.
  606. 3. regrab will give you inv if he upBs on stage, let go dj rest
  607. 4. if he waits to sweetspot(/sideB then sweetspot) react to the sound (to distinguish) and roll when appropriate
  608.  
  609. might have to do an extra refresh if he’s far enough out.
  610. if he’s at a good angle/situation you can fall off with inv fair and bump him out for the kill
  611. reverse fair bair combos super super easy on marth/falcon
  612. (taken from alex's blog)
  613. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  614. Puffs that get good at that ruin Marth
  615. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  616. if you cant get to the ledge fast enough its perfectly fine to give ledge to marth, puff is better off challenging marth when he's on the stage near ledge and not invulnerable rather than while he's grabbing ledge
  617. because marth near ledge is still a terrible position for him
  618. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  619. Puff is pretty good at poking at Marth from his getup options
  620. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  621. There is counterplay to that edgeguard
  622. sometimes you can just stall enough to hit puff
  623. since the stall isn't intangible obviously
  624. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  625. They can stall with fair though which, if it trades, you're still dead
  626. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  627. what do you mean by stall
  628. w/ side b?
  629. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  630. DJ
  631. preferably
  632. obviously
  633. good use of double jump in Marth's recovery is pretty important
  634. HotsauceJar - 09/27/2016
  635. I would guess that stalling is susceptible being attacked, right
  636. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  637. dj where he can grab ledge is beaten by the first fair, dj stall lower is beaten by the roll/regular getup
  638. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  639. And a lot of the times you might have a chance to hit Puff while recovering you're more likely to get hit by bair first or trade.
  640. HotsauceJar - 09/27/2016
  641. Marth DJ stalling susceptible to Puff attacking
  642. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  643. that as well
  644. but that becomes a mixup
  645. which i dont want in this edgeguard lol
  646. this should be flowchart for puff if its done correctly
  647. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  648. No it shouldn't
  649. you can't cover everything
  650. If marth has his tools available
  651. if he doesn't he's p fucked
  652. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  653. uh
  654. can you be more specific
  655. what can marth do that beats that flowchart
  656. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  657. I'm pretty sure even with jump Marth getting put offstage by Puff is waaay more likely to die than not
  658. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  659. side b stall (including and not including first aerial side b), double jump and height to work with
  660. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  661. i really want to know so i can figure a way to cover it lol(edited)
  662. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  663. given those, edgeguarding Marth with and without those tools is entirely different
  664. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  665. marth side-b is 63 frames
  666. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  667. A smart puff won't grab ledge until they force them to go low in which case Marth is still fucked even with his jump
  668. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  669. can't i react to it and fall down with a bair if you stall low with it?
  670. and if you stall high with it i'm supposed to be grabbing ledge as you pass the ledge
  671. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  672. You can fall with fair
  673. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  674. that too
  675. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  676. well Marth would want to use it in positions where you can't punish it on reaction
  677. and yes there are positions like that
  678. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  679. But at those positions you're just giving Puff more time.
  680. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  681. Anyway, his DJ stall is more significant
  682. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  683. Stalling near/above ledge can just be hit by bair
  684. Being forced to drop low means puff grabs ledge and flowcharts you
  685. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  686. if puff can't cover it on reaction marth is too far away to mixup between up-b'ing to stage and sweetspotting i believe
  687. i say this w/o testing
  688. so i should test it
  689. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  690. Your fair ledgestall could be beaten by waiting below with a DJ ledgestall then up bing when Puff becomes vulnerable with the hitbox no longer active
  691. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  692. uh
  693. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  694. I just can't imagine why it wouldn't be
  695. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  696. the fair is just to cover dj early
  697. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  698. They wouldn't fair ledge stall from that though
  699. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  700. What
  701. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  702. so like
  703. if marth falls past ledge
  704. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  705. The fair is intended to force Marth to up b onstage
  706. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  707. and dj's to try to grab ledge away from puff
  708. fair beats that
  709. nooooo its a dj fair
  710. not a low fair
  711. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  712. I know what it is
  713. I've seen the video on jpuff tutorials
  714. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  715. i mean my flowchart from alex literally says "If he jumps this will stuff it." for the dj fair so i mean
  716. i'm just going off alex's word
  717. but thats what i'm looking to cover whenever i use it
  718. and by jump he means the early jump not the dj stalling you were referring to
  719. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  720. If you go low and dj stall you're still probably gonna die
  721. Marth is *
  722. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  723. well actually what does puff do on a marth who goes low and dj stalls?
  724. because her invulnerability runs out if marth goes low enough(edited)
  725. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  726. That's what setchi's getting at I guess
  727. Should go watch some hbox and try to find those specific situations
  728. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  729. oh
  730. (off the top of my head needs testing)
  731. but can't puff just react to the dj and drop off fair?
  732. Mr. L - 09/27/2016
  733. Just do the ledge regrab fair
  734. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  735. Yeah because at that point if Marth up b's he's dead and if he doesn't he's also dead
  736. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  737. if marth does his up-b early after the low dj puff still should have invulnerability and if marth does it later then it'll still trade
  738. afaik
  739. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  740. No
  741. Marth has mixups if he has his recovery tools available
  742. just go watch pewpewu
  743. everyone go watch pewpewu
  744. his recovery is gr8
  745. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  746. Worth looking into. I still think 9/10 he's gonna die
  747. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  748. no
  749. @Cheetah164 nah Marth could up b after the hitbox is no longer active
  750. and hit you
  751. it's not that hard to think of
  752. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  753. uhhh
  754. fair lasts a long time
  755. marth would be hit or too low by then
  756. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  757. You have to stall a while for the hitbox to expire
  758. ^
  759. alexspuffstuff - 09/27/2016
  760. I think in setchi's scenerio puff grabbed ledge too early.
  761. we need a video example.
  762. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  763. Fair active to frame 22, ends frame 39
  764. even with ledge intangibility, you're gonna be vulnerable for a bit
  765. and when you grab the ledge/decide to begin the fair stall would also determine your ability to punish his side b stall, I'd assume.
  766. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  767. Puff can wait on ledge with dj stall which is even harder to hit
  768. And then just use fair stall when they know you have to up b
  769. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  770. Doesn't Puff have an intangible ledgestall?
  771. ludwig - 09/27/2016
  772. No
  773. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  774. I think I saw one on the Alex Puff stuff blog
  775. HotsauceJar - 09/27/2016
  776. http://alexspuffstuff.blogspot.com/2016/09/refreshing-puffs-ledge-invulnerability.html
  777. Refreshing Puff's Ledge Invulnerability
  778. Refreshing Puff’s Ledge Invulnerability Note: When you grab ledge you go through a 7f animation called "Cliffcatch." You cannot let go of ...
  779. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  780. S0ft Dashing
  781. ludwig - 09/27/2016
  782. Well the hax hash with puff is the best option
  783. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  784. The standard one is plenty hard to hit though.
  785. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  786. S0ft Dashing has 0 frames of vulnerability
  787. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  788. *done frame perfect
  789. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  790. With Marth anyway
  791. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  792. so really just be a god of that, and unless marth is in the position to DJ to ledge then just do that until they up b onstage then rest
  793. Kappa
  794. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  795. so technically 0-1 frame of vulnerability factoring in game/human error(edited)
  796. but yeah
  797. ludwig - 09/27/2016
  798. I don't really think it's possible to be frame perfect
  799. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  800. why not
  801. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  802. its not
  803. sec
  804. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  805. Does it require DEFINITE frame perfect inputs
  806. or is it lenient
  807. like falcon's AI bair from ledge
  808. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  809. oh that i'm not sure about
  810. ludwig - 09/27/2016
  811. It is not lenient
  812. Puff is slow
  813. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  814. In that case rip dream
  815. for Puff at least
  816. Falcon AI bair has leniency, and I believe can be done with enough practice
  817. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  818. http://alexspuffstuff.blogspot.com/p/how-frames-work.html
  819. to answer the general question of "why can't i be frame perfect"
  820. How Frames Work
  821. How Frames Work There's a lot of misconception about the ramifications of "frame perfect." I had to draw little diagrams in order to under...
  822.  
  823. but yeah idk how lenient it is
  824. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  825. I've read that already
  826. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  827. ah
  828. just making sure
  829. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  830. Anyway also what can happen is any attempt for Marth to drop low can be intercepted with bair
  831. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  832. Aka mixup :stuck_out_tongue:
  833. alexspuffstuff - 09/27/2016
  834. when I was testing soft dashing I did it in frame by frame a dozen or so times and couldn't get it any sooner than f30. f31 has 1f of vulnerability.
  835. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  836. Bad mixup tho. Most likely dead
  837. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  838. Will be dead if you lose the mixup, will come back if you win it
  839. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  840. i want a flowchart though rev
  841. not a mixup
  842. lol
  843. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  844. You don't get one
  845. Marth recovery's p bad
  846. ludwig - 09/27/2016
  847. The flow chart for marth is reaction though
  848. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  849. but it's not that bad
  850. ludwig - 09/27/2016
  851. Aren't all recoveries reactions to the edge guard? Or mixups?
  852. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  853. This game is too hard to boil down to flowcharts all the time just exploit the recovery. That's Puff's strength
  854. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  855. i disagree i think there's definitely a solution to everything on reaction against marth
  856. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  857. I disagree to that
  858. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  859. lol welp
  860. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  861. damn a lot of disagreeing going on
  862. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  863. i guess we'll just be in disagreement until i test this
  864. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  865. this is getting intense
  866. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  867. but i'm busy writing an essay q.q
  868. alexspuffstuff - 09/27/2016
  869. lol this conv can't move forward without video example of where the hole is
  870. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  871. lmao essays
  872. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  873. Puff's kit can invalidate so many recoveries it's ridiculous.
  874. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  875. if there was a definite edgeguard flowchart that easy against Marth that Puff had
  876. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  877. I'm of the opinion that there is no hole, based off what I've seen from Hbox.
  878. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  879. then Marth would be dead pretty much all of the time
  880. alexspuffstuff - 09/27/2016
  881. isn't he?
  882. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  883. yeah i think marth is death pretty much all the time
  884. lmao
  885. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  886. is he?
  887. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  888. he is though.
  889. If the Puff plays right.
  890. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  891. in the edgeguard at least
  892. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  893. but then we see marth's making it back against high level puffs......
  894. are you simply going to claim they fucked up
  895. alexspuffstuff - 09/27/2016
  896. yeah
  897. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  898. Yes lol.
  899. alexspuffstuff - 09/27/2016
  900. lol
  901. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  902. ok but can you provide us a video of a marth recovering(edited)
  903. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  904. against who specifically
  905. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  906. "ok but can you provide us a video of a marth recovering"
  907. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  908. Even hbox messes up.
  909. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  910. loool
  911. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  912. because hbox normally bodies everyone
  913. well marths at least
  914. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  915. lmao i'm serious tho, show us a video of puff following the flowchart exactly and marth still making it back
  916. and then i'll have to revise the flowchart
  917. thats the process of improvement
  918. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  919. maybe you should question why they didn't go for it
  920. I'll be back anyway
  921. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  922. i am going to follow the flowchart until it doesn't work
  923. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  924. @Cheetah164 there are likely videos of marth getting back for some reason or another but I think it's more likely that Puff made a mistake than Marth mixing up through it
  925. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  926. and then i'll tweak it
  927. etc.
  928. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  929. this is a loooooooooongg chat, anywhere someone has posted the flowchart online so I can read it
  930. like a summary type ish
  931. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  932. oh
  933. sec
  934. Reverie pinned a message to this channel. See all the pins.09/27/2016
  935. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  936. nvm
  937. Reverie - 09/27/2016
  938. Pinned
  939. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  940. thanks
  941. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  942. LOL
  943. I found an example
  944. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  945. link pls
  946. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  947. https://youtu.be/tDxvY_MVctI?t=1m41s
  948. YouTube
  949. VGBootCamp VoDs
  950. Apex 2015 - PewPewU (Marth) Vs. Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) - Winners...
  951.  
  952.  
  953. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  954. i'm not trying to be disrespectful
  955. i just really want to see
  956. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  957. Me neither
  958. PPU stalls as Hbox does his fair
  959. hits him as he's vulnerable
  960. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  961. uh
  962. puff did a bair not a fair
  963. fair would've covered side-b i believe
  964. *i believe
  965. i should definitely test this though
  966. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  967. Oh yeah why did he bair lmao
  968. was looking at PPU
  969. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  970. fair would let you drift forward too right
  971. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  972. I still believe PPU would have hit him out of his fair stall
  973. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  974. also, puff covered marth air dodging to stage as it is
  975. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  976. so its a faster ledge snap
  977. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  978. I'm talking about the one after that Cheetah
  979. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  980. OH lol
  981. woops
  982. hbox grabbed a bit late
  983. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  984. And how did that impact the edgeguard
  985. Geruyop - 09/27/2016
  986. Yeah fucking hell this is long
  987. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  988. http://puu.sh/roYzl/6b6ada48c6.jpg
  989. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  990. Is fair less lag than bair
  991. Geruyop - 09/27/2016
  992. Good though
  993. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  994. this is way too low, puff shouldn't have gone for the dj aerial after this
  995. because of exactly what happens
  996. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  997. even if PPU up b'd would bair have hit before up b hit puff
  998. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  999. So what should she have done
  1000. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1001. either
  1002. 1. fast fall fair i believe covers everything marth does
  1003. or if it doesnt
  1004. 2. give up on the edgeguard and pressure marth on stage, which is still extremely advantagous for puff
  1005. if 1 doesn't apply then its not flowchart edgeguard
  1006. the flowchart only applies if puff can grab ledge at that timing mentioned earlier
  1007. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1008. I don't see it covering everything
  1009. esp on reaction
  1010. https://youtu.be/tDxvY_MVctI?t=2m24s
  1011. YouTube
  1012. VGBootCamp VoDs
  1013. Apex 2015 - PewPewU (Marth) Vs. Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) - Winners...
  1014. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1015. either way the mistake was grabbing ledge far too late
  1016. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1017. Why didn't hbox go for the low DJ fair stall
  1018. He made the flowchart, why did he do this
  1019. (or at least I think he did idk)
  1020. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1021. did he grab too late
  1022. or let go too early?
  1023. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1024. the fair should've covered jump
  1025. hrm
  1026. my only answer is he should've dropped lower before double jumping with the fair but i dont like that answer(edited)
  1027. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1028. Let's say it did cover DJ to ledge
  1029. what if PPU went lower with his DJ then up b'd the vulnerable frames like he did earlier
  1030. I honestly just don't see this flowchart covering everything.
  1031. Covers a lot.... sure... it's really fucking good....
  1032. but just watching this vod and thinking about it, I just don't see it
  1033. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1034. @alexspuffstuff if you could clarify on this that'd be great lol
  1035. cuz i can't see what puff can do in that situation
  1036. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1037. now that the whole how to edgeguard marth thing has calmed down
  1038. what does marth do to edgeguard puff
  1039. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1040. OH I KNOW THIS ONE :smiley:
  1041. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1042. :smile:
  1043. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1044. lmao i forgot i asked this
  1045. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1046. Puff DJ sweetspot is non existant
  1047. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1048. woahhhhh
  1049. sing sweetspots under dtilt tho
  1050. i actually tested this
  1051. lol
  1052. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1053. Yes, I know
  1054. I tested it too
  1055. sing sweetspots under dtilt, dair would connect though
  1056. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1057. yep
  1058. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1059. so if they go for sing dair and if not just dtilt
  1060. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1061. so what do you mean by "dj sweetspot is non existant"
  1062. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1063. Regular DJ sweetspot
  1064. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1065. ahh
  1066. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1067. with no pound or sing
  1068. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1069. well i mean
  1070. Geruyop - 09/27/2016
  1071. You could react to the going to dair right
  1072. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1073. With what Geru?
  1074. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1075. uhh i dont believe so geru
  1076. Geruyop - 09/27/2016
  1077. Air dodge maybe
  1078. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1079. dair is f6
  1080. lmfao
  1081. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1082. ...
  1083. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1084. i wish i could react to it
  1085. Geruyop - 09/27/2016
  1086. The have to jump tho
  1087. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1088. they have to jump and FF or run off DJ dair
  1089. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1090. whats the frame data on shffl dair
  1091. or wait do you mean ledge grab drop off dj dair
  1092. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1093. is the best option for a pound challenge to wavedash back on reaction and fsmash or does pound hitbox come out too fast
  1094. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1095. no
  1096. run off DJ dair
  1097. is probably fine
  1098. I can't imagine anything Puff has to contest it
  1099. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1100. That's good
  1101. Anyway, so the Puff isn't bad
  1102. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1103. lmao recovering low is soooo bad for puff
  1104. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1105. and they don't recover low
  1106. they get horizontal, what then?
  1107. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1108. if puff goes above you she is fucked
  1109. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1110. What options does Puff have coming back against Marth that threaten him
  1111. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1112. up air city right
  1113. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1114. dj pound over and over off stage until you're top platform height
  1115. and then aeiral drift mixup out of marth's aerials
  1116. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1117. cant you fair in between pounds
  1118. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1119. again it really sucks for puff lmao
  1120. kingkiller - 09/27/2016
  1121. Marth goes to side plat and its the same
  1122. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1123. not if puff is far enough off stage
  1124. puff shouldn't pound near the stage
  1125. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1126. in that scenario we could react to you going high
  1127. and side plat
  1128. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1129. then puff mixes up between recovering high and recovering low
  1130. i seriously have no idea to recover v marth
  1131. its so bad for puff
  1132. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1133. well if puff recovers high and tries to go low
  1134. kingkiller - 09/27/2016
  1135. No bc then we react or you are close enough to to get faired(edited)
  1136. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1137. puff can also throw out bairs to poke marth between his aerials
  1138. but thats also incredibly high risk
  1139. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1140. so its the same thing w/ less jumps know
  1141. we've established that puff is fucked offstage i guess
  1142. marth can get down faster
  1143. ugh internet sending my messages all over the place
  1144. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1145. I want to talk about something a lot of Puffs do that isn't actually that good
  1146. kingkiller - 09/27/2016
  1147. Plus shield drops
  1148. Ok
  1149. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1150. which is low uair on shield to utilt/crouch(edited)
  1151. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1152. omfg
  1153. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1154. it's not that good
  1155. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1156. i hate watching puffs do it
  1157. because i know i do it out of habit too loool
  1158. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1159. I think mixing up between low uair utilt and crouch on shield against characters with worse oos options like Falcon is good
  1160. but Marth can fair/dair oos and cover... p much both
  1161. it's just not that good
  1162. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1163. upair is incredibly high risk and high reward because if puff hits it at low-mid% marth is essentially dead
  1164. if puff hits shield she's screwed
  1165. but like
  1166. you cant shffl upair a grounded marth without some sort of frame advantage
  1167. upair just does't have that range
  1168. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1169. uair is -3 at best on shield iirc(edited)
  1170. I checked a while ago
  1171. I might be wrong
  1172. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1173. uh i thought it was worse
  1174. lol
  1175. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1176. I'll check again
  1177. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1178. lowest possible fair is like -2
  1179. so fair -> crouch beats grab if puff is frame perfect
  1180. but not otherwise
  1181. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1182. Yes
  1183. but as I said
  1184. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1185. i mean if the puff goes for crouch to bait grab just dair
  1186. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1187. Marth has fair/dair oos
  1188. and the only way you can call dair out in that situation
  1189. is to shield or rest
  1190. rest would be the biggest fucking read
  1191. and as for shield
  1192. it's mid risk low reward
  1193. for puff
  1194. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1195. its still a good position for puff though because if marth whiffs dair (puff dashes back etc) puff gets a hard punish
  1196. and thats his only option to beat crouch
  1197. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1198. Puff dash back wouldn't be significant I think
  1199. she slow af
  1200. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1201. marth can just dash back then or dash forward to call out dash back
  1202. kingkiller - 09/27/2016
  1203. Can't Marth fade back?
  1204. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1205. uh he cant dash out of shield lol
  1206. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1207. drop shield dash out
  1208. puff is slowwwww
  1209. or jump fade back
  1210. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1211. @kingkiller dair is unsafe on shield even with fadeback
  1212. Melee Genius Crusader - 09/27/2016
  1213. drop shield is 15 frames
  1214. HotsauceJar - 09/27/2016
  1215. why not just wd back?
  1216. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1217. wavedash
  1218. HotsauceJar - 09/27/2016
  1219. as marth
  1220. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1221. dair oos is only really safe if you connect the dair
  1222. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1223. idk why i said drop shield
  1224. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1225. loses stage position
  1226. PurpleDolphin - 09/27/2016
  1227. derp
  1228. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1229. which is why its such a good position for puff
  1230. kingkiller - 09/27/2016
  1231. @$etchi to beat dash
  1232. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1233. oh okay
  1234. yeah
  1235. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1236. also just curious, how far away does puff have to be for fadeaway dair to whiff?
  1237. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1238. I think Puff getting a low uair on Marth's shield is actually a poor situation for Puff
  1239. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1240. while she crouches
  1241. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1242. she forces the mixup
  1243. but
  1244. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1245. yeah i agree
  1246. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1247. it's in Marth's favour
  1248. the risk/reward that is
  1249. kingkiller - 09/27/2016
  1250. Thoughts on dtilt -> dsmash as a kill option?
  1251. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1252. non tippered dtilt can combo to dsmash at certain %s right?
  1253. alexspuffstuff - 09/27/2016
  1254. in the 2m24s apex example hbox grabbed ledge too early
  1255. kingkiller - 09/27/2016
  1256. Yeah$etchi - 09/27/2016
  1257. I'm assuming it would be DI dependent yes?
  1258. kingkiller - 09/27/2016
  1259. Probably
  1260. We still get good position off a sourspot though.
  1261. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1262. @alexspuffstuff https://youtu.be/tDxvY_MVctI?t=6m48s
  1263. YouTube
  1264. VGBootCamp VoDs
  1265. Apex 2015 - PewPewU (Marth) Vs. Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) - Winners...
  1266.  
  1267.  
  1268. in this situation, PPU stalls enough so that he can up b hbox
  1269. but hbox is at low% so it doesn't matter
  1270. but still, it's relevant
  1271. alexspuffstuff - 09/27/2016
  1272. hmm, well there was a delay between ledgegrab and the let go double jump
  1273. let me look in slow motion
  1274. Geruyop - 09/27/2016
  1275. Where have i heard your name before
  1276. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1277. alexpuffstuff
  1278. kingkiller - 09/27/2016
  1279. Blog
  1280. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1281. the blog
  1282. Geruyop - 09/27/2016
  1283. Ty
  1284. kingkiller - 09/27/2016
  1285. @alexspuffstuff Your blog is great btw
  1286. Geruyop - 09/27/2016
  1287. I wonder if I'll ever get through drastic improvement
  1288. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1289. his blog is god-tier
  1290. not just for puff mains
  1291. alexspuffstuff - 09/27/2016
  1292. oh ok I get it.
  1293. In that example hbox needed to delay the regrab.
  1294. That is an interesting scenario. If marth can upB past the ledge at the same time that puff would get there then it's very tight on the execution for puff. She has to fade in a way that she would be outside of any non-sweetspot but would grab it just before a sweetspot.
  1295. If puff executes correctly then the flowchart still works here though.
  1296. I'm glad you found that example, it's neat.
  1297. ty kingkiller.
  1298. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1299. best stages for either character?
  1300. for me its:
  1301. (((marths favor)))
  1302. yoshis
  1303. fd
  1304. pokemon
  1305. fod
  1306. battlefield
  1307. dreamland
  1308. (((puffs favor)))
  1309. TheJetFuel - 09/27/2016
  1310. Best for puff is DL
  1311. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1312. well duh lol
  1313. what about for bo3 tho
  1314. TheJetFuel - 09/27/2016
  1315. But it really depends
  1316. Because sometimes dl is good
  1317. Because you can run away forever
  1318. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1319. dreamland is objectively the best because of the platform placement(edited)
  1320. plus utilt killing earlier
  1321. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1322. I'd probably favour FD over YS as Marth, if played patiently
  1323. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1324. er
  1325. later
  1326. lol
  1327. TheJetFuel - 09/27/2016
  1328. I really like pokemon
  1329. Also FoD
  1330. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1331. PS is Kreygasm for marth
  1332. but fuck transformations
  1333. TheJetFuel - 09/27/2016
  1334. Although throw->dair is lame on FoD
  1335. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1336. lool
  1337. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1338. yeah both suck, i put yoshis over it because marth can mix between his two throws and get a tipper fsmash kill off both on yoshis
  1339. they both expose different weaknesses of puffTheJetFuel - 09/27/2016
  1340. Yoshis can be scary
  1341. Because its easier for puff to get you in the air
  1342. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1343. howso
  1344. TheJetFuel - 09/27/2016
  1345. If youre on the side platform and get pushed back youre either going to be in the air or on ledge
  1346. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1347. Like, for Peach, I much prefer FD over YS for obvious reasons.
  1348. I will kill later, but if played patiently then I get so much mileage off of the stage
  1349. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1350. mhm
  1351. fd puts marth in better positions far more often, but yoshis lets marth capitalize on those positions better
  1352. i'd say its preference, but speaking from personal experience i ban yoshis always
  1353. TheJetFuel - 09/27/2016
  1354. Pokemon is best of both worlds
  1355. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1356. to prevent tilt lool
  1357. $etchi - 09/27/2016
  1358. I'd fucking love PS if it was frozen
  1359. but seriously fuck transformations
  1360. TheJetFuel - 09/27/2016
  1361. No u
  1362. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1363. i banned pokemons against a marth and i got made fun of after i lost on yoshis
  1364. TheJetFuel - 09/27/2016
  1365. Lol upthrow off the top of pride rock
  1366. Cheetah164 - 09/27/2016
  1367. lowkey thats why i put it so low
  1368. mralext20 - 09/27/2016
  1369.  
  1370. GodOfNumbers - 09/27/2016
  1371. I like transformations
  1372. So that puff-marth matchup huh?
  1373. Mr. L - 09/27/2016
  1374. Yes.
  1375. that is indeed the topic of this channel
  1376. Astute observation
  1377. The Coconut Man - 09/27/2016
  1378. vs.
  1379.  
  1380. Mr. L - 09/27/2016
  1381. No its actually
  1382. aw wrong server
  1383. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/230027788021792769/230420944655482880/unknown.pngGodOfNumbers - 09/27/2016
  1384. please try and keep this channel focused on the matchup
  1385. BairGod | Melody - 09/27/2016
  1386. who needs the puff matchup
  1387. The Coconut Man - 09/27/2016
  1388. For real though this is for at least somewhat serious discussion
  1389. BairGod | Melody - 09/27/2016
  1390. emotes4life
  1391. ludwig - 09/27/2016
  1392. For marth mains. When do you feel most threatened by puff. IE when she's below me and I'm on a platform.
  1393. September 28, 2016
  1394. rd1027 - 09/28/2016
  1395. offstage
  1396. PurpleDolphin - 09/28/2016
  1397. offstage def
  1398. or by ledge
  1399. Cheetah164 - 09/28/2016
  1400. anywhere with stage control that you feel threatened?
  1401. PurpleDolphin - 09/28/2016
  1402. losing stage control and area to dash dance means puffs bair is 10x scarier, esp since one hit sends us off the stage and then its even scarier
  1403. Cheetah164 - 09/28/2016
  1404. i mean, is there any situation you feel threatened while you still have access to your dash back(edited)
  1405. PurpleDolphin - 09/28/2016
  1406. oh
  1407. uh
  1408. Reverie - 09/28/2016
  1409. Keep discussion in this channel on topic. Derailing discussion here will result in a temporary mute or ban on repeated offenses.
  1410. Reverie pinned a message to this channel. See all the pins.09/28/2016
  1411. PurpleDolphin - 09/28/2016
  1412. oh lmao i was about to say we r on topic
  1413. Reverie - 09/28/2016
  1414. I know I'm just making it known that I'll be watching. Carry on balloons
  1415. PurpleDolphin - 09/28/2016
  1416. idk any special situations that feel especially threatening when i still have stage control, i guess like normal high %s that can lead to a kill early but other than that nothing I can think of tbh
  1417. ludwig - 09/28/2016
  1418. How about if puff is beneath you? Are you scared of uair
  1419. PurpleDolphin - 09/28/2016
  1420. Marth never wants to be above anyone tbh
  1421. he doesnt have good downwards options
  1422. up air normally links into some kill combo for rest or a bair hitting marth offstage, which is really bad
  1423. @Reverie hey can we start like archiving these JMUs to save the messages or like pin the important ones as we go and make a short list of those at the end? We could put it in a google doc or something with multiple MUs to save space
  1424. theGravyTrainTTK - 09/28/2016
  1425. So pivot fsmash is overated out of fthrow
  1426. I got lazy and didn't finish my investigation
  1427. But from the first couple of fthrows in PPU vs Hbox at CEO 2016, PPU was acting 4 or so frames late
  1428. And Hbox was jumping out of hitstun close to frame perfect every time
  1429. So its worth looking into more, maybe with more warm up and later in the set, he acts quicker
  1430. Idk
  1431. If the Puff acts that much quicker than the Marth, he/she is going to jump out every time
  1432. Just hold down and you have fairly good di on fthrow and downthrow
  1433. Geruyop - 09/28/2016
  1434. I dunno about that. I will test it but i think it is guaranteed on certain DIs
  1435. At certain %s
  1436. theGravyTrainTTK - 09/28/2016
  1437. No, it is guarenteed
  1438. Geruyop - 09/28/2016
  1439. I honestly dont know anything about the setup other than you throw and then pivot fsmash but i can test in framr advance
  1440. theGravyTrainTTK - 09/28/2016
  1441. But from looking at PPU vs Hbox frame by frame, PPU was further from frame perfection than Hbox was on his jump out
  1442. So Hbox was getting out a lot
  1443. Geruyop - 09/28/2016
  1444. Ppu isnt the kind of guy i expect to be frame perfect
  1445. theGravyTrainTTK - 09/28/2016
  1446. Even still, being that close to frame perfect is very difficult
  1447. So its worth noting for if you are wondering if its worth putting lots of time into
  1448. Geruyop - 09/28/2016
  1449. I dont think it is
  1450. If you know the frame when you can act(edited)
  1451. Training with overlays makes those things way easier to practice
  1452. theGravyTrainTTK - 09/28/2016
  1453. But when add all of it together (fairly easy for puff to be frame perfect/for you to be, typically a 33/33/33 guessing game, pivots take a lot of practice), I don't know if it is worth pursuing
  1454. Imo at least
  1455. Geruyop - 09/28/2016
  1456. I personally think pivots are really easy, but have practiced them a lot. It does depend on your controller for sure, but you can also do pivots that ignore setbacks of controllers that dont flick pivot well.(edited)
  1457. kingkiller - 09/28/2016
  1458. Pivots have so many other uses. I think it's completely worth it
  1459. theGravyTrainTTK - 09/28/2016
  1460. I personally don't have too many issues with pivots
  1461. But a lot of people do
  1462. Geruyop - 09/28/2016
  1463. Most of the reasons people have a hard time with tech is they either don't really know how it actually works, haven't practiced it much, or both.
  1464. So as marth is it just dtilt or whiff punish bair in neutral. That's what I've seen, but i could read a lot more.
  1465. kingkiller - 09/28/2016
  1466. I've been liking fair in place. Pp uses a good bit of nair. I know ppu likes to mix in the occasional side b.(edited)
  1467. Aiken - 09/28/2016
  1468. Is it me or is shielding puffs bair and wavedashing out stupidly good
  1469. Like they fade back to try make it safe but you just follow them
  1470. Juanpi - 09/28/2016
  1471. depens
  1472. if puff does it at the wrong part of her jump yeah
  1473. but fadeback bair is safe
  1474. and if you wd in you're frame negative
  1475. $etchi - 09/28/2016
  1476. if puff gets a bair on your shield, she's gonna fade back in 80% of scenarios to make it safe.
  1477. I usually just try to reset neutral in such a situation, WD back/in place works wonders
  1478. kingkiller - 09/28/2016
  1479. Would shield SDI fair oos work?
  1480. $etchi - 09/28/2016
  1481. doubt it
  1482. kingkiller - 09/28/2016
  1483. Ok
  1484. If they are fading back to avoid pivot grab and we shield, can't we do a short wavedash forward to take space?
  1485. Juanpi - 09/28/2016
  1486. If puff misspaces yes
  1487. but well spaced bair is always safe on shield unless she seriously fucks something uo after
  1488. rd1027 - 09/28/2016
  1489. yeah resetting to neutral is the best option in that situation
  1490. kingkiller - 09/28/2016
  1491. Ok
  1492. Orlando - 09/28/2016
  1493. @Versed || OddishGuy fuck puff
  1494. September 29, 2016
  1495. Mr. L - 09/29/2016
  1496. Read every puff bair and use marths fair to hit jiggs extended hurtbox and outrange and you good
  1497. theGravyTrainTTK - 09/29/2016
  1498. I initially took that as a joke
  1499. But it is slightly more practical than it seems
  1500. Since every time puff wants to jump
  1501. Typically you do an aerial so you don't get the slow jump
  1502. Cheetah164 - 09/29/2016
  1503. "read every bair" lmfao
  1504. if puff is obvious with her movement and just spams bair i mean i guess thats possible
  1505. but i'm pretty sure thats as unviable as saying "just read every single fox nair and this matchup is easy" lol(edited)
  1506. ludwig - 09/29/2016
  1507. Reading puffs bair is legit
  1508. A lot of puffs are trash at mixing it up. In the sense that if they are in the air they are going to@bair
  1509. Arasz - 09/29/2016
  1510. what if they arent
  1511. TheJetFuel - 09/29/2016
  1512. then youre screwed
  1513. ludwig - 09/29/2016
  1514. Then you still have to do a drift back fair
  1515. tai plays very patiently and does the matchup well
  1516. Cheetah164 - 09/29/2016
  1517. i actually prefer doing the majority of my footsies grounded against marth
  1518. because being in the air is way more commital for puff, even if she has better options
  1519. plus puff cant crouch in the air lol
  1520. my walk forward is wavedash crouch, my pokes are sh nair, sh bair and sh fair, my whiff punish is sh bair
  1521. (generally speaking of course)(edited)
  1522. because being above a low% marth is so terrible for puff i like to reserve fullhop aerials till after knockdown%
  1523. Mr. L - 09/29/2016
  1524. It's actually pretty sickolas as Puff's bair normally outranges marth fair, but marths better disjoint can let him abuse puffs hurtbox extensions
  1525. BairGod | Melody - 09/29/2016
  1526. Dat aerial mixups i use bair way too much and poorly space it
  1527. Mr. L - 09/29/2016
  1528. Grounded puff I just Dtilt. Or ftilt sometimes
  1529. BairGod | Melody - 09/29/2016
  1530. D tilt works for edgeguarding against puff
  1531. Mr. L - 09/29/2016
  1532. Dtilt is optilt(edited)
  1533. BairGod | Melody - 09/29/2016
  1534. Of f-smash if your puff opponent walks into everything
  1535. PurpleDolphin - 09/29/2016
  1536. People often mention pivots a lot in this MU. Can anyone explain what they are? Like I know what pivots in general are but what does it refer to in this MU and how do I do it/when?
  1537. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1538. http://puu.sh/rshyI/46dc7732cb.jpgthoughts on this position?
  1539. puff is immediately outside dtilt range
  1540. Bojangles4th - 09/30/2016
  1541. dash grab
  1542. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1543. puff's jump bair beats out dash grab from this distance afaik
  1544. i'll test but pretty sure marth doesn't reach puff in 3 frames
  1545. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1546. then again i might be used to puff's dash speed and be underestimating marth lol
  1547. kingkiller - 09/30/2016
  1548. Doesn't it get crouched?
  1549. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1550. dash grab? nope
  1551. standing grab does
  1552. which is why puff's crouch is still powerful next to marth(edited)
  1553. kingkiller - 09/30/2016
  1554. The front hitbox of dash grab still gets crouched
  1555. Right?
  1556. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1557. oh
  1558. uhhh, not sure about the specifics, sorry
  1559. alexspuffstuff - 09/30/2016
  1560. yeah
  1561. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1562. fadeaway fair if the puff is aggressive with her bair
  1563. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1564. so this position is sounding like standard rps
  1565. puff can chase marth's dash back with an aggressive bair though which makes this position slightly in puffs favor imo
  1566. AirFair - 09/30/2016
  1567. will it hit him?
  1568. if not then, dash back and if they follow with bair then dash forward rising fair
  1569. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1570. i believe it hits but i didnt test
  1571. AirFair - 09/30/2016
  1572. if it's super close pivot grab is good too
  1573. Mr. L - 09/30/2016
  1574. What can marth do oos on puff? One of the best ways to beat puff in neutral as many charachters is "aggro sheilding" ie running in deep with sheild so the bair isnt safe, and punishing. Can marth do this or too shitty shield hame
  1575. Reverie - 09/30/2016
  1576. You have to be careful because Marth's head and toes can be shield poked.
  1577. I imagine fair oos would be okay, but won't yield much more than some damage and positional advantage.
  1578. AirFair - 09/30/2016
  1579. if you do that kind of shield, then fair oos should be good
  1580. if puff puts you in shield, then she will most likely fade away after hitting it, and I think the answer to that is wd oos and try and reset position
  1581. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1582. dair OoS is like marths one option to beat crouching puff on shield
  1583. and if puff wavedashes back slightly to force a whiff puff gets a free meaty punish
  1584. everything else marth does OoS gets beaten by mid% crouch
  1585. oh except upb but thats even more risky than dair lol
  1586. aside from crouch, on shield puff has shieldpoke setups (rip marth), bair fadeaway (wavedash OoS, but be careful you dont go far enough to get thwacked again), fullhop fair fadeaway (fullhop fair hits if marth is fast and puff is slow), nair crossup (dair/bair), and tomohawk crouch (if puff telegraphs you can aerial OoS before she lands)
  1587. hope that covers everything
  1588. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1589. dair oos can be punished on hit
  1590. pretty sure
  1591. a lot of time if a puff is crouching on my shield I'll wd back to reset neutral
  1592. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1593. if puff is crouching on the side of marths shield that forces him to wavedash and lose stage position, thats still good for puff
  1594. i still think its the best for marth
  1595. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1596. yes but its better than dairing a cc'ing puff and getting punished on hit
  1597. depends on the percent the puff is at
  1598. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1599. ^^^
  1600. Juanpi - 09/30/2016
  1601. Yeah if marth dairs me at 0 i can dash attack or sh nair/fh fair at him with hella frame adv
  1602. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1603. yup
  1604. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1605. tipper dair beats cc early though, no?
  1606. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1607. no
  1608. Juanpi - 09/30/2016
  1609. At 0 if i cc/asdi down no
  1610. dunno about percent
  1611. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1612. at low % its punishable on hit
  1613. the best thing to do in that situation is wd back
  1614. if you're in the corner already you're fucked
  1615. Juanpi - 09/30/2016
  1616. Gotta take a risk in the corner
  1617. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1618. oh woops
  1619. Juanpi - 09/30/2016
  1620. fair oos, spotdodge, roll in, upb to a plat maybe
  1621. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1622. 61%
  1623. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1624. perhaps sh double fair fading back
  1625. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1626. just checked
  1627. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/230027788021792769/231452197697617920/Screenshot_20160930-122804.jpgrd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1628. too much lag on up b
  1629. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1630. puff can cc for a while
  1631. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1632. damn 61
  1633. good to know
  1634. Juanpi - 09/30/2016
  1635. Upb can knock puff down at 17
  1636. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1637. yeah but if you miss
  1638. lol
  1639. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1640. still a bit too risky for my liking
  1641. is that the % before the hit right
  1642. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1643. uhh
  1644. crap sec
  1645. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1646. I assume it is
  1647. Mr. L - 09/30/2016
  1648. So unlike fox or sheik marth doesnt gain anything sheilding unsafe puff cuz he sux
  1649. Juanpi - 09/30/2016
  1650. Yeah its before hit
  1651. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1652. unsafe ariel on shield -> grab -> pivot fsmash
  1653. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1654. percent before hit
  1655. oh
  1656. cuz it says 0 lol
  1657. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1658. so tip fsmash always beats puff cc
  1659. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1660. yeah you can shield puffs moves but puff has a loooot of stuff she can do to counter a shielding marth
  1661. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1662. yup
  1663. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1664. puff on shield is really interesting in most mu's tbh
  1665. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1666. there's not a whole lot marth can do oos
  1667. except for sh double fair
  1668. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1669. if her grab isnt insta death then she has a crapton of other options to exploit
  1670. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1671. yup, even shield stabbing marth is pretty easy
  1672. oh I've been meaning to ask this is drill -> grab true on marth
  1673. if you do it perfectly
  1674. I know it is on fox
  1675. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1676. one sec
  1677. after uhh
  1678. checking my notebook
  1679. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1680. because I had a puff shield poke me with drill and then grabbed me, I tried to sdi it but it felt true
  1681. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1682. dair is 15f landing (16 accounting for the potential of landing after the no hit frame)
  1683. woops cant format on mobile
  1684. grab is f7
  1685. so dair grab is true after...
  1686. 64%
  1687. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1688. Iirc I was at higher percent so that makes sense
  1689. thanks
  1690. puff is scary
  1691. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1692. 59 on fox
  1693. actually
  1694. oh
  1695. this the percent after drill btw
  1696. not before
  1697. so its more like 50 if puff gets most hits
  1698. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1699. damn
  1700. well its a good thing puff doesn't get a lot off of grab on marth
  1701. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1702. uhhh
  1703. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1704. I guess dthrow is your best option?
  1705. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1706. fthrow at 64 is gonna send marth to the other side of stage
  1707. well
  1708. from center of bf atleast
  1709. ill take that in this mu lol
  1710. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1711. yeah marth gets better punishes off of grab generally
  1712. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1713. oh well yeah
  1714. being able to take stage position from a shield poke against marth is definitely huge
  1715. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1716. yeah that's true and marth is ass from the ledge
  1717. only 4 frames on invincibility from his ledge dash if you do it perfectly
  1718. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1719. puff drill shieldpokes about a little more than half a mississippi when you hit all the hits of drill
  1720. btw
  1721. so one bair -> drill on a marth who holds shield is a guaranteed shieldpoke
  1722. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1723. yeah that's a huge factor in this mu, marth's shield is just not good
  1724. which is why fighting puff is scary
  1725. oh do you have a percent chart for breaking cc if we get a sourspot on our hits
  1726. Juanpi - 09/30/2016
  1727. @rd1027 check alexs puff stuff
  1728. the blog
  1729. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1730. sec
  1731. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/230027788021792769/231487819481219073/Screenshot_20160930-144917.jpg
  1732. rd1027 - 09/30/2016
  1733. thanks
  1734. Cheetah164 - 09/30/2016
  1735. i dont have the link to the sheet on mobile sorry
  1736. alexspuffstuff - 09/30/2016
  1737. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WOSYc6yx8cSp7oFrfTYpwZcBZEoGTy1dO5bpaY-O4AY/pubhtml#
  1738. October 1, 2016
  1739. Cheetah164 - 10/01/2016
  1740. any marths on east coast want to play netplay?
  1741. willing to stream as well
  1742. if so ping me
  1743. Ragoo - 10/01/2016
  1744. Y'all better archive this talk
  1745. October 2, 2016
  1746. TheJetFuel - 10/02/2016
  1747. @Reverie pls
  1748. Reverie - 10/02/2016
  1749. This is getting archived tomorrow
  1750. Mr. L - 10/02/2016
  1751. Possum
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