Ame vs Mik, Tierminator Judgement

Ame vs Mik Judgement

**Ame’s Intro**

**1a.** For Ninjak vs Wolverine, Ame opens with a table outlining each character’s offensive and defensive feats. Right off the bat I’m wary of this argument as it’s *clearly* underselling some of Wolverine’s upper limits. I get that the goal in these debates is to present your character as superior to your opponent’s, but you have to keep in mind that judges may already be familiar with the material you’re citing - or in this case, omitting. This is especially true when arguing against someone as well-known as Wolverine; I was immediately sketchy when you said his best striking feat is breaking ice, and then you followed it by saying his *adamantium claws’* best piercing feat is cutting up firearms. Starting your argument with such a blatant lowball makes me disinclined to trust your argument later on. I think a more genuine approach would have been better, as Ninjak’s presented strength and durability, if not superior, are at least respectable against Wolverine’s actual upper limits.

Challenging the time it takes for Wolverine to regenerate is plausible, and I’m left believing Ninjak can attack Wolverine in several ways that can’t be shrugged off. Arguing Ninjak’s speed and stealth is also a good angle; to say that Wolverine will hit him “once in a blue moon” is perhaps overselling it, but I can at least buy that Ninjak has the advantage here.

**1b.** The IG-88 vs Robocop is a much cleaner comparison, possibly because I know nothing about either character going in. The table gives me a clean perception of IG’s physical superiority for the moment, and I appreciate the layman description of how blaster’s work. Given the information, I find it a reasonable assertion that IG’s blaster is the superior gun in this fight. You then segway into IG’s durability with these same scans which comes off as a little redundant, but I understand the intention behind it.

Arguing IG’s weight to support his durability seems like an unnecessary argument to me; it doesn’t really mean much in and of itself. The blaster analysis compared to Robocop’s strikes is a much more solid argument, while your link of the weaker model “withstanding” blaster shots actually seems counterintuitive as the older model was very clearly damaged.

Targeting Robocop’s human weaknesses feels like a solid move, but you did very little to expand on it. The crackshot feats are much more supported, and portray IG as a credible threat to its opponent.

On first glance I’m left believing IG has the advantage, but I’m a little cautious of some of these unsupported claims, and curious to see mik’s counterpoints.

**Mik’s Intro**

**1a.** Mik immediately counters Ame’s assertion of Wolverine with solid piercing feats, and challenges Ninjak’s ability to contend against adamantium both offensively and defensively. I find most of this argument to land pretty solidly; I don’t see how Ninjak’s blade can effectively de-limb Wolverine, which Mik has presented as a reasonable tactic for Ninjak to assume; or how his sword or armor could withstand adamantium claws. Surprisingly, I also notice a lack of rebuttal to Ninjak’s superior striking…

On the contrary, the argument for Wolverine’s senses is less believable against Ame’s initial stealth claim. The distinction of ninjitsu vs invisibility doesn’t really mean much without any explained differences, and many of the scans showing Wolverine’s heightened senses involve him getting shot anyway. I like the attempted angle of Wolverine’s smell giving him a counter to invisi-jitsu, but they’re mostly tracking feats that don’t necessarily translate into combat.

Arguing Wolverine’s regeneration started out strong, but the skeletal scan leaves me concerned. If you’re trying to argue Wolverine can come back from anything less than that, that seems like an easy way to OOT yourself. On the other hand, I also don’t think Wolverine was in any condition for a prolonged fight in that scenario, so the argument seems moot.

**1b.** Mik challenges IG’s weight claim and the older model’s durability. I was already doubting the latter claim, but the moving parts and pieces is a valid point as well. Unless they are vulnerable outside its armor however, most of Robocop’s offensive feats don’t really challenge Ame’s assertion that IG can tank them via scaling to it tanking blaster shots. That said, the grappling feats vs Cain make me thing Robocop *could* have an edge in melee.

The argument for Robocop’s facial durability is mostly credible; I don’t recall seeing his “skin” ever directly shot at, but it endures enough collateral damage that it must have *some* kind of enhanced durability. I don’t know if he could tank a blaster shot to the mouth area, but I also don’t think one would necessarily kill him either. The lack of lungs is a solid argument if true, but I’d love to see something cited to support that.

Robocop’s durability is the highlight of this argument, using Ame’s own definition of the blaster shot against him. Given what I’ve been told about blasters, I am skeptical that one could harm or disarm Robocop at this point. There is also a solid argument that Robocop’s crackshots could take out some of IG’s weapons.

**R1 analysis:** Overall I’m left believing Wolverine can easily beat Ninjak in a straight-up melee and that Ninjak is unlikely to open with an attack that Wolverine couldn’t tank, but Ninjak’s stealth + organ-targeting is a tactic Wolverine may not be able to overcome.

Meanwhile, IG vs Robocop seems like a very even fight. Both fighters have a near-impenetrable defense against their opponent’s primary methods of attack, with IG’s win cons being to focus on Robocop’s human features by shooting his flesh or using toxic gas; and Robocop’s win cons are destroying IG’s weapons and / or engaging it in melee.

**Ame’s Response**

**2a.** Ame starts by reasserting Ninjak’s superior speed and strength, neither of which have been refuted at this point. I find it believable that Ninjak could dodge and attack faster than Wolverine can counter; maybe not flawlessly, but enough to give him an advantage.

Ninjak’s stealth is elaborated on. I already didn’t care if it’s ninjitsu or invisibility or if there’s even a difference between the teo, but the lack of scans on Ninjak’s superhuman mentor and peers doesn’t really sell me the claim that it *isn’t* ninjitsu. Luckily most of this portion is spent minimalizing Wolverine’s heightened senses, which I think holds more weight. Most of Wolverine’s senses do appear to be a non-factor here, and there’s little support that he could use them effectively in combat.

Ninjak’s skills and offense are expanded on, and I’m left believing he has several viable options to hurt Wolverine aside from de-limbing or cutting people in half. I still don’t know if he’s fast enough to stab Wolverine enough to take him down without being tagged back first, and I highly doubt he’s going to realize or make use of Wolverine’s *one* non-adamantium bone, but I think he’s got a solid win on of stealth attrition.

The final argument of his defense falls a little short for me. I feel like Mik’s scans of Wolverine cutting metal were solidly above Roku cutting concrete, and you already mentioned that his armor only *partially* protected him. I don’t see Ninjak *not* getting skewered if Wolverine lands a blow. The argument that he could fight through it is a little more feasible, though not by much.

Overall I think Ninjak’s speed and skill have been secured so far, while his strength and durability are still questionable.

**2b.** Ame reiterates IG’s ability to tank rounds from Robocop. The logic here seems pretty sound; if IG can tank hits from stronger firearms, he should be fine in this match. Arguing the general properties of durasteel without links, and trying to infer IG’s height and weight mean that he’s tanky are harder sells for me without actual links to support those properties. You then re-link the unimpressive scan of IG-11 getting shot; I’d drop this entirely, as IG-88 has enough scans of himself tanking blasters that Ig-11 is at best unnecessary and at worst a counterpoint for your opponent. That said, the weaker IG getting de-limbed and still fighting is a more valuable scaling feat, and I can believe IG-88 could fight through a lost limb.

The melee argument brings up valid points I observed in mik’s post, downplaying Robocop’s barrel-bending and striking. Incidentally, not enough is known about the door IG punched to prove it’s a greater feat than Robocop, and the feat of five IG-88s picking up a door doesn’t sell me on IG’s durability or strength. The scans of IG fighting help me believe it’s at least willing to go h2h if it needs to.

You graze Robocop’s human weaknesses again before going back to focus on IG’s ability to penetrate his armor. I’m still pretty convinced Robocop can tank IG’s blaster thanks to your earlier explanation of how they work, but the denting and cutting feats help me believe IG’s got better chances in h2h. You also make what seems like a reasonable take on IG removing Robocop’s weapons. I just wish I’d seen more about his facial weaknesses.

At this point I’m willing to believe IG can poison Robocop and that he’s got a chance in melee combat, but his ranged lethality is still in question.

**Mik’s Response**

**2a.** Mik’s opening here is an accurate summary of Ame’s win con in this fight; hitting without being hit at all costs. Ninjak’s speed is called into question, and there are certainly enough examples of him getting hit for me to believe he’s not escaping this fight unscathed. Wolverine is also proven to be at least in the same realm of speed as Ninjak’s usual opponents, if not faster.

Arguing Ninjak is unaware of Wolverine’s senses is a non-factor to me at this point, as I’m not convinced Wolverine can use them effectively in combat. Arguing that he’s unaware of Wolverine’s adamantium is more relevant, and I can see that playing against Ninjak in an actual fight.

I finally see a real rebuttal on Ame’s striking argument, and an acknowledgment that striking vs striking isn’t the issue; it’s Ninjak’s striking vs Wolverine’s durability and vice versa. Wolverine’s durability is established as being able to take a hit from Ninjak.

Ninjak’s stealth is challenged, and while I still believe he can get the jump on Wolverine, I’m less convinced that he could or would do so repeatedly. Wolverine’s skill and tactics are also brought up and made relevant so that Ninjak has no absolute advantage in this regard.

I won’t touch too heavily on the argument against Roku’s hair or Ninjak’s tendency to use non-optimal tactics against Wolverine, as I think these were already established well enough previously. At this point I am convinced Ninjak is unlikely to approach Wolverine with the perfect battleplan to unknowingly bypass his adamantium durability right off the bat, and that his armor has been pierced by weaker blades than Wolverine’s claws.

**2b.** IG’s durability is disputed. Mik argues that being blaster-proof isn’t the same as being bullet-proof, and being primarily durasteel doesn’t make IG impenetrable. I’m still not convinced IG can be pierced by Robocop’s guns, but acknowledging that it has a weak spot makes me think Robocop could land a lucky shot. His targeting software doesn’t really show him identifying weaknesses so much as being able to shoot wherever he wants, and I’m not convinced he could easily find IG’s weak spot.

Robocop’s durability is still mostly secured to me. I don’t think his armor can be penetrated by a blaster, but I also don’t see anyone ever aiming explicitly at his face. I have to assume at least one of the thousands of bullets he tanks would have to hit that area and we never see it pierced or bleeding, so I want to say it’s probably not the weak spot Ame wants it to be.

IG’s melee capabilities are questioned, and the amount of time it takes IG to bust down a door seems relevant to his striking capabilities. We also see that Robocop has much more melee showings than IG, and he seems to have no problem taking hits from stronger opponents.

I’m still not convinced Robocop wouldn’t be harmed by toxic gas, but it is a valid point that we never actually see IG-88 use it combatively.

**Conclusion**

For Ninjak vs Wolverine, I rule in favor of **Wolverine.** Evening handwaving Wolverine’s sendes, Ninjak’s win con of continuously stabbing Wolverine without getting hit has been challenged enough by his lack of knowledge of Wolverine’s adamantium to use appropriate procedures, seeing Ninjak get hit by less-skilled opponents, and not using his stealth once he’s landed a blow. He could very well sneak up and hurt Wolverine at least once, but I don’t think he could do it repeatedly without Wolverine getting a shot or two in himself, and Ninjak lacks the durability to take Wolverine’s claws.

I will say that the way Wolverine was argued makes me question his tier status. Even accounting for what was discussed in Discord, his lose condition against Terminator is either null or *very* unlikely. If his regen can be toned down a bit, I think he’s a valuable contender.

Ninjak seems like a great choice as well with a lot of versatility that can help him in this tier. Going up against someone as tanky and skilled as Wolverine is just bad luck.

IG-88 vs Robocop is a much closer call, as I don’t think either fighter has a ranged kill option against their opponent. They’re both good enough shots to take out each other’s weapons, meaning the match will more than likely turn melee, in which case I give the match to **Robocop.** IG’s win con of poisoning Robocop is feasible, but I don’t see enough evidence to believe it would actually try to do this; whereas Robocop’s melee strength and skill make it a more credible threat to IG-88. I do however believe both fighters are excellent choices for the tier.