mik vs verlux

Verlux R1

* spear long
 * thrust
* yun does not try to kill immediately, honda does
* yun's win options are less immediately available due to story context and also slower than a spear thrust
-I'm not sure this necessarily matters. like even if yun can't perfectly replicate the spear thrust's killing or damaging effect in the same time-frame it doesn't become a losecon for yun necessarily.
* honda fast
 * superhuman reactions
 * dodge, matrix, attack in one sword swing time-frame
 -could expound somewhat on both the time-frame and the implied dodge/hand speeds and probably not get your ass eaten
* honda zones
* spear hits from start distance
* spear craters dirt
* explodes ground with heavy swing
* break sword with swing
* honda chains hits and misses in combo attacks
* if the spear is ducked in particular he can crush yun
* any dodge yun does will disadvantage him
-except backing up maybe
* yun has no durability
* catches spear with rock hand
 * rock hand cannot withstand honda spear therefore it will hurt yun
* can yun mole concrete
* can yun do this quickly enough not to get hit
* in-character yun retreatn't
* earthbending in defense is slow and therefore useless
 * even if it were fast it would be bad bc fire mogs it
  * therefore yun gets stabbed
* offensive earthbending is useless
 * honda has giga endurance to piercing, you have to kill him to win if you're trying to kill by piercing
* honda can suplex a bull and therefore burying him or trapping him in concrete/dirt will not work
-ehhhhh i'm not sure this is true

Mik R1

* honda has to win immediately, if the fight lasts any longer than that then yun is much more likely to win
* ranged attacks and arena control
* honda is melee reliant
-this feels half true just due to the length of the spear essentially subsuming mid-range into melee
* honda has to stab, yun can change all the factors going into that in a similar timeframe
* honda's speed exists in comparison to a swung sword, yun's speed is basically the same
* yun has some other speed feats including fighting someone who is blurry fast
* if yun gets range he automatically wins
* yun pierces >flesh and pierces armor that stopped arrows and broke swords
 * spears
 * spikes underneath/around opponent negates projectile travel time
* honda's spear is worse at close quarters
* yun uses a rock glove dagger to attack from behind
* yun is skilled
* honda gets pierced, yun attacks good, in close range yun is better
* if honda gets hit, he dies
* yun liquifies arena, negating mobility
-could negate leverage largely as well
* yun opens crevice, grabs honda
* yun sinks honda directly into ground and/or breaks his legs
* suplexing a bull is not enough strength to break concrete that's restraining him
* yun controls arena
* honda misses, yun doesn't
* yun can swim on land
* yun can move with his powers
-i think you might, MIGHT be able to equivocate this to yun's dodge speed being his move speed + his regular dodge speed
* honda has zero mobility
* yun can put concrete barriers between himself and yun
 * physically obstructing him
 * hiding yun's mobility options
* yun can condense paint dye enough to shear metal and will block blades with his rock glove
* even if yun takes damage he can fight for a long time and also is willing to sacrifice body parts to win
* honda has to break a barrier, he has to get through yun's block, and it would lack lethality if it landed
* yun smart, always a-thinkin'
* attacks w piercing, defends w/ concrete, retreats strategically and upsets honda's balance/leverage, tunnels
* yun can fight for days while taking injuries

Verlux R2

* honda just has to stab at yun, yun has to do much more to defend
 * a fast guy with mild foresight instincts can barely dodge his stab
* yun has to do time-consuming moves
* stab is quicker than bending
* honda is closer to yun than he was from musashi. yun won't be able to dodge if musashi barely could.
* first hit will always go to honda
-could address better in this section the possibility of the block, i think
* honda 80ms reactions
* musashi is the same speed as honda due to scaling
-seems like an unnecessary point to make and i dont want to get super into this here but i don't think this is something that's necessarily true
* 160ms at 5 feet, 128ms at 3 feet
* yun only blocks regular spears, honda is strong
-should probably address the "paint chips shear metal" argument regarding the durability of any construct yun makes
* honda can take a lot of punishment before actually going down, you basically have to kill him outright
* honda is strong
* honda is hard to pierce, spear shaft breaks sword that cuts armored men in half, different sword cuts into it and cuts honda
* honda aims for the heart
* AP piercing options will not oneshot honda
* yun's speed feat is not fully reaction, he's on edge at a point a page earlier
 * his dodging of the jet punch is under similar conditions
-i don't think "yun is on guard" makes this not an applicable reaction feat
* sword is drawn and then swung in the feat, not just swung
-this is true
 * definitely not 128ms attack
 -feels not necessarily true
* shimmer in air feat not good
-I can see how this could be accomplished by human reaction times with all other context removed, but we also know that Mik provided some evidence indicating that the attack is fast, in addition to its collateral.
* blur is not necessarily fast, we don't know how far away the attack comes from, unclear
-I don't feel convinced by this, I feel like the text indicates this was a surprise attack from an enemy he didn't know for certain was there until she had already attacked, and he had to be reacting to the attack appearing. The distance thing is a mildly valid concern ig but contextually it seems like "avoids surprise melee attack". the portion mik linked regarding "blur speed" explicitly states it's extra fast
* speed feats not relevant to dodging
-in one of them he does in fact dodge
* rock glove still has yun taking damage if he blocks
* honda strong, can be strong while fast
* how it goes

Mik R2

* honda has to be able to strike before yun does literally any 1 thing in order to win
-might be true
* honda's showings vs stone is worse than the amount of stone a random earthbender can summon in an extremely short timeframe
 * yun is a better earthbender
* wall of concrete beats honda's attack
* the flames are strong
* honda only pierces stone a few inches, it will not pierce through a wall of summoned stone
* even if the spear breaks or otherwise mogs yun's arm when he blocks he can keep fighting
* musashi shoves honda's attack down, may be responsible for the collateral
-this could be a convincing point if it weren't the case that honda has other feats clearly indicating sufficient strength to accomplish this one. like even if musashi is the one doing this for the most part or a significant part, honda would still be strong
* earthbending scales to the strength of the airbender, worse earthbenders break their attacks against the defenses of strong earthbenders, and yun is one of the best earthbenders ever
* combustion man breaks stone but doesnt break thinner armor
-i guess this exists but aang isn't taking a direct hit here and it seems unlikely he would be able to in his armor
* armor tough enough that it breaks swords, yun makes paint dye pierce this armor
* yun does a comparable action to honda that would throw off honda's aim entirely
* yun can uppercut to fuck with honda bc it's a first-resort that he does instinctually
* yun doesn't need any motion to move himself on earth
* yun's sword catch feat is taking place in the same or very similar time-frame as honda's
-could be true, it would be better if you addressed the point that the text says "drew" as well as "swung". i think there's a way to argue this feat as taking place only during the swing.
* yun already has the rock fist activated, he doesn't have to do 2/3 of this feat, meaning he can act faster
* shimmered above his head
* shimmer is not far from the fire
* fast punch, near distance, good speed
-sounds true
* we dont know how fast honda attacks it's based on his sword feat
-this isn't completely true, it's based on musashi's reaction time, which is based on honda's reaction time, calced to some degree from the sword feat. while i might personally not be convinced by the feat or scaling, this argument doesn't rebut it fully i think.
* yun is smart and skilled
* yun establish range
* yun getting smushed into the ground would let him burrow better
* yun has mobility without movement
* honda has no counter to any of yun's arena effects
* yun has a bunch of options to attack honda
* honda can take hits but he doesn't keep fighting through the big ones
* yun's piercing is ranged and spammable
* yun has experience with spears, honda has no experience with bending
* honda's fighting style is completely beaten by yun's ability to control the arena
* yun dodges honda's attacks that use mobility in every way honda has ever used it

Overall thoughts.

I think Yun wins. He rides a razor's edge staying in tier, though.

I think Honda's and Yun's speed feats are like, fairly similar; similar enough, in my mind, that they're pretty much the same reaction speed. I don't think a ton of time was spent quantifying how fast Yun's arm would have to move, but I can't imagine it's significantly slower than Honda's posited speed. Even if his hand speed were slower, Yun has to move much less distance to block than Honda does to stab, and he can sustain the first hit even if he loses his hand/arm. Then it basically becomes a largely settled question of "if Yun is out of Honda's range/ability to hit Yun then what happens" where Yun largely wins those encounters. Honda can take a lot of hits from strong piercing, and so can his spear, but he has little or no recourse if he's unable to hit Yun in return, essentially forced by the range disadvantage to take hits for free until he loses.

Both characters seem workable in Kengan with the right stips or interpretations. Fem and Ken summarized the characters well in their judgments.

I can give specific feedback to any particular feat interpretation on request. Good debate overall, felt good to see a lot of "we fight, how that do?" arguments instead of stipshit and semantics.