ChuckWagon's lack of grace; debate with Peter

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ⓘ Lord, we ask blessings for all those who work to help and protect us. May they maintain their desire to serve in our military, emergency services and medical facilities. Keep them safe and keep thier families secure. Amen
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+Peter__
ChuckWagon, I gots a question for ya.
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+dragoon
VirtualPreacher: I forgive you.
Stopped ignoring ChuckWagon!*@*
@ChuckWagon
Peter__: Okay ... well I'm awake enough, I hope.
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+Peter__
It
+dragoon
ChuckWagon: VirtualPreacher abuses the children of God. If you do not remove his operatorship, then you are complicit in his sins.
+Peter__
's just a very short 5 minute video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfYbgdo8e-8
@ChuckWagon
dragoon: Speak to the founder.
+dragoon
ChuckWagon: Will you speak to the founder?
As a follower of Christ, instructed to love your neighbor as you love yourself.
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+dragoon
What VirtualPreacher does to the least of those who visit this channel, he does to God himself.
+smurfy
hi ChuckWagon =)
@ChuckWagon
dragoon: Look... gonna let you know you do not have the right to make demands.  Send a memo to Sara_Ks.
+dragoon
ChuckWagon: I don't detect any grace in you.
You've yet to comment on the teachings of Christ, but you are spending time talking about the rules of the channel.
+Peter__
dragoon, what does grace look like to you?
+dragoon
Peter__: Many things.
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+dragoon
I can give several examples.
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@ChuckWagon
dragoon: I cannot act on what I didn't see.
+dragoon
<Grace> 'It deeply troubles me if somebody abuses the children of God. I take your concerns very seriously and, as a follower and ambassador of Christ, I will do everything in my power to prevent such abuses.'
ChuckWagon: I can provide five examples.
Would you like to see five examples?
The way you behave in this interaction, ChuckWagon, reflects on Christ.
@ChuckWagon
dragoon: I do not act on what I do not see.  Examples might be fabricated.
+dragoon
It is a small part of how Christ will be perceived by those who are not Christian.
ChuckWagon: I have five examples.
Would you like to see five examples?
@ChuckWagon
dragoon: And the way you're acting reflects on you - now, you've been given a course of action.  If you don't take it, you're goading me.
+dragoon
Peter__: Do you detect any grace in the way ChuckWagon is talking?
Do you detect any notion that he considers himself an ambassador of Christ?
I don't.
+Peter__
dragonWagon, do you understand his logic and hesitation?
+dragoon
No.
Peter__: The first step would be look at the examples.
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+Peter__
you made a claim, a claim he haven't (yet) backed up, and many do come here making claims without backing them up...
+dragoon
Dismissing them as possibly fabricated, without inspecting them, doesn't take my concerns seriously.
And it is not an act of love.
Peter__: VirtualPreacher is abusive every single day he is here.
He has been here for several hundreds days.
Many of those days he was here while ChuckWagon was here.
This notion that he has no idea what I'm talking about is extremely disingenuous.
@ChuckWagon
dragoon: You're lying.  I did not dismiss.  I am following policy.  Op issues are to be taken up in private.  You will drop this discussion one way or the other ... and I can make you drop it very quickly.
+dragoon
It's somebody who is doing everything they can to avoid responsibility, rather than upholding the values of Christ.
+diqueless
if u wanna be taken seriously - not hang out here?
Ignoring ChuckWagon!*@*
+dragoon
ChuckWagon: I forgive you.
Peter__: Do you think ChuckWagon making threats against me to "make it drop very quickly" demonstrate any grace?
+Peter__
dragoon, I can understand both of your positions.
+dragoon
Peter__: Do you agree that Jesus instructed his followers to love others as we love ourself?
Do you think ChuckWagon is loving me as much as he loves himself?
In Western Christian theology, grace has been defined, not as a created substance of any kind, but as "the love and mercy given to us by God because God desires us to have it, not necessarily because of anything we have done to earn it",[1] "the condescension or benevolence shown by God toward the human race".[2] It is understood by Christians to be a spontaneous gift from God to people "generous, free and totally unexpected and undeserved"[3] – that takes the form of divine favor, love, clemency, and a share in the divine life of God.[4]
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+Peter__
dragoon: I've only known ChuckWagon to be a pretty selfless guy.
+dragoon
Peter__: You didn't answer my question.
Why?
+diqueless
HAHAHA
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+diqueless
how gracious chuck is....
+Peter__
dragoon, to me, it seems that to be able to be calm, considerate, and...empathetic, are good qualities to intangle misunderstandings and differences of where we are on the path toward's greater love.
+dragoon
Peter__: Are you afraid that if you give your complete thoughts on the matter you'll lose influence on ChuckWagon?
+diqueless
lets praise him (he'll ban you otherwise)
+dragoon
Peter__: If I was not familiar with Christianity before this conversation with ChuckWagon, do you think I would be more or less inclined to learn more about it?
I think I would be much less inclined.
+Peter__
dragoon, I am not suggesting you abandon your view, for it is your view, however your view may change with time. Might I suggest that you are feeling very emotionally inpsired right now that might be geting in your way towards being better understood by others here?
+dragoon
We basically saw a Blue Shield by ChuckWagon as he defended his own and called the person raising the allegation a liar.
+Peter__
dragoon, this is a private house, not a public one.
+dragoon
Peter__: Why are you not answering my questions.
+Peter__
I learn the culture of where I am at, what respect means, and try to commune with the people of that place.
ChuckWagon: , see the video?
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+Peter__
ChuckWagon: , exactly! I was curious about the parellel's you've read for it.
+dragoon
Peter__: Are you communicating that in this culture ChuckWagon has more authority than you and he will not respect you if you say any words that he doesn't want to hear?
+Peter__
in scripture.
+diqueless
in a private house, you safely can act like a fascist
+dragoon
The blue wall of silence,[1] also blue code[2] and blue shield,[3] are terms used in the United States to denote the unwritten rule that purportedly exists among police officers not to report on a colleague's errors, misconducts, or crimes, including police brutality. If questioned about an incident of alleged misconduct involving another officer (e.g. during the course of an official inquiry), while following the code, the officer being questioned would claim ignorance of another officer's wrongdoing or claim to have not seen anything.
Peter__: This is not a private house.
Your analogy is quite wrong.
A much closer analogy is a pub/tavern.
+Peter__
dragoon, isn't not a private channel on a server?
+dragoon
Peter__: Why are you not answering my questions.
Peter__: Are you communicating that in this culture ChuckWagon has more authority than you and he will not respect you if you say any words that he doesn't want to hear?
Peter__: For the record, thus far, you've said only positive things about ChuckWagon, and not a single criticism.
What are the odds that ChuckWagon has nothing to criticize?
Probably pretty low.
+Peter__
dragoon, it's not my place to change the culture here. If it doesn't seem fair to you, why not go somewhere else? That's the freedom of clubs...you can join or not.
+dragoon
So, you are concerned you'll lose standing and influence with him.
Peter__: Why are you not answering my questions.
+diqueless
fatcats, defending their thiefdoms
+dragoon
Peter__: You are a Buddhist, yes.
+Peter__
dragoon, I study Buddhism, sure.
+diqueless
aka ops
+dragoon
Peter__: Why are you unwilling to answer my questions?
+Peter__
dragoon, because it is not my place to judge others.
+dragoon
Can you cite the Buddhist reasoning that supports that course of action?
Peter__: You have judged others in this conversation.
Would you like an example?
+diqueless
its fun to taunt despots...
+Peter__
dragoon, sure.
+dragoon
"dragoon: I've only known ChuckWagon to be a pretty selfless guy. "
+Peter__
ChuckWagon: , I remmeber the classic angel on one side and devil on the side in old cartoons.
dragoon, that's what I've witnessed of him.
+dragoon
Is that witness a judgment?
+Peter__
No, I cannot truly say who or howhe is to others.
+dragoon
Peter__: You are teaching me you're a dishonest person.
Peter__: What is your definition of judgment/
+diqueless
peter offering chuck the good ol reacharound...
+Peter__
Only my description of what I've sene of him thus far in my interactions.
+dragoon
Peter__: But you refuse to give some kinds of descriptions of him.
Peter__: You are surprising me in how dishonest a human being you can be.
+Peter__
dragoon, to pretend my descriptions are anything beyond my own limited subjective view, at any given time.
+dragoon
Peter__: Why are you not answering my questions?
Peter__: What is your definition of judgment?
This a word you introduced into the conversation.
You've now used multiple synonyms for this word without reusing it.
+Peter__
dragoon, for me, judgement is to act the judge, to lay down right and wrong for others.
+dragoon
This is very bad communication.
+diqueless
lets face it....irc channels are ciclejerks....
+Peter__
I cannot lay down right and wrong for others.
+dragoon
Peter__: We have engaged in about twenty conversations.
I will recall this conversation the next time we interact.
+Peter__
dragoon, I have loads of opinions sure, but I don't take them very seriously.
I find my opinions change with time.
+dragoon
You have lose substantial influence with me in your desire to placate the egoic needs of ChuckWagon.
You understand that he participates in a culture of authority, and that he has authority in this room.
+Peter__
Thacker-, if someone was in my home, people would have to honor my 'rules' if they wanted to stay.
+dragoon
You understand that if you challenge him in this ego-borne cultural pattern, you'll lose influence with him.
+Peter__
If I am in another's home, I would have to follow their rules if I wanted to stay.
+dragoon
And you prefer to maintain that influence than to speak honestly when asked questions.
This is not consistent with Buddhist teachings.
+Peter__
I treat this place as another's home.
+dragoon
Peter__: Your analogy to a home is quite wrong.
+Peter__
So it doesn't matter me that the culture of those in charge is different from my own.
dragoon, how so?
+dragoon
A much better analogy is a pub/tavern.
+Peter__
dragoon, what does the IRC guidelines say?
+dragoon
I do not know why you are persisting with this bad understanding.
+diqueless
cant somebody trigger a dumbass biblequote?
+Peter__
dragoon, a pub can kick out drunks who are too rowdy.
+dragoon
This bad understanding, that this place is like a home, is causing other misunderstandings.
+Peter__
Or don't follow the rules either.
+dragoon
Peter__: Do you accept a much better analogy is pub/tavern than private home?
+diqueless
i got expevtations, joining here....
+dragoon
Let us not mention private home again.
(I will address your question after we complete this thread)
+Peter__
dragoon, if you went up to a bartender (ChuckWagon) and wanted to complain about another bartender (VirtualPreacher) and started yelling in his face to do something simply because you felt the bartender was rude to you...ChuckWagon asking for evidence/proof seeems very reasonable dude.
+dragoon
Peter__: I didn't yell.
+diqueless
no fair, vo gotta answer dragoon
+dragoon
This is a significant misrepresentation on your part.
+Peter__
dragoon, who here thinks dragoon is yelling?
+dragoon
Peter__: I challenge you to find a single post of mine that you think was most similar to yelling.
Peter__: Are you familiar with Buddhist suspicion of analogical reasoning?
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+dragoon
All analogical reasoning, by definition, includes misunderstanding.
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+dragoon
As we are not directly discussing the event that occurred, but events that are like it.
Direct contact with the event at hand is a core Buddhist epistemic value.
+Peter__
dragoon, in order to not be misunderstood, you gotta adapt to the culture you are in.,
+dragoon
Your analogy to yelling creates far more confusion than insight in the present context.
Peter__: You have returned to a thesis not under discussion.
Let us stay focused.
There is no equivalent to yelling online.
+Peter__
dragoon, you want me to follow your lead?
+dragoon
Why?
Because yelling is a phenomenon that is used by animals to demonstrate emotional orientation and power/size.
The human brain has a set of evolved responses to yelling, as it can be a signal to violence.
There is no equivalent action online.
All attempts at analogy will lead to more confusion than insight.
Peter__: I want you to stay on one thesis at a time.
I want you to admit when your ideas are worse than mine.
Peter__: I want all your duties in this conversation to be symmetric with my duties.
+Peter__
Thacker-, if one can go in without getting burned...maybe some can be lifted up.
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