[29-Apr-20 07:52 AM] Ninja#8225
i would support a heat rock ban

[29-Apr-20 07:52 AM] Ninja#8225
i think the length of sun is what makes it rly suck

[29-Apr-20 07:52 AM] Ninja#8225
with no heat rock you can basically make one correct predict like getting ferro in on grass/poison move

[29-Apr-20 07:53 AM] Ninja#8225
and be able to stall out the sun turns pretty easily

[29-Apr-20 07:53 AM] Ninja#8225
i think its the length that makes it really bad

[29-Apr-20 07:53 AM] Ninja#8225
bc the bulbasaur user can click the wrong moves half the time and still take out most of your team

[29-Apr-20 08:32 AM] Serene Grace#5243
> bc the bulbasaur user can click the wrong moves half the time and still take out most of your team
sounds like a bulbasaur problem then

[29-Apr-20 08:33 AM] levi#6206
Yea I don't think heat rock would be busted with cherry

[29-Apr-20 08:33 AM] levi#6206
Who has worse typing, doesn't get sleep, and is much frailer

[29-Apr-20 08:33 AM] Ninja#8225
i dont think bulbasaur with no heat rock is broken

[29-Apr-20 09:57 AM] LilyAC#7887
im undecided but assuming sun is broken rn because of bulba,

[29-Apr-20 09:57 AM] LilyAC#7887
we have a situation where bulba is broken on its own regardless of vulpix

[29-Apr-20 09:58 AM] LilyAC#7887
making cherubi the only pokemon vulpix breaks. shouldnt that mean cherry should be banned over vulpix?

[29-Apr-20 09:58 AM] LilyAC#7887
like shouldnt we free vulpix and then ban bulba and cherry

[29-Apr-20 09:59 AM] levi#6206
that could be worth looking into but would vulpix + pony be broken too?

[29-Apr-20 10:01 AM] levi#6206
if its not then i think banning cherry bulba is better ya

[29-Apr-20 10:02 AM] LilyAC#7887
no idt vulpix + pony would be broken

[29-Apr-20 10:04 AM] Pablo#5523
vulpix + charmander + oddish was pretty broken in pre home meta

[29-Apr-20 10:04 AM] Pablo#5523
imagine would be worse with pony too

[29-Apr-20 10:05 AM] levi#6206
i definitely dont agree w pre home sun being broken

[29-Apr-20 10:05 AM] levi#6206
pony seems more broken than charm since its still a real threat once sun runs out

[29-Apr-20 10:05 AM] levi#6206
+ bulkier, doesnt need scarf etc

[29-Apr-20 10:06 AM] Pablo#5523
Munch made it less broken

[29-Apr-20 10:06 AM] Pablo#5523
Its so ass noe

[29-Apr-20 10:06 AM] Pablo#5523
Now

[29-Apr-20 10:07 AM] levi#6206
o ya ig thats fair

[29-Apr-20 10:09 AM] Pablo#5523
Drifloon too to an extent cuz it was a decent oddish check

[29-Apr-20 10:11 AM] levi#6206
well pawn has also gotten better + pony exists now

[29-Apr-20 10:56 AM] Coconut#8762
After some deliberation, I think we need to keep trapping post-LCPL. Realistically, we're only going to have a month in between LCPL ending and DLC1. Making such a significant metagame change right before a gigantic warping of our meta might not be the best thing for it's stability. I think we should see all the tools we get in DLC1 before we move forward with suspecting either of the trappers. On that note I still don't really think that sun is banworthy, but it would be the next suspect worthy thing on my personal radar. I think that the best course of action that we could take is banning Heat Rock and unbanning Vulpix, as Bulba is strong but we could see a rise of cherubi/charmander taking it's place on a sun team and not needing much adjustment otherwise. The former makes it easier to wall, as it lacks poison coverage; the latter being trapped more easily or chipped down significantly faster, yet the options that they provide should be relatively easier than just getting rid of Heat Rock. I also don't think Vulpix will be broken with Heat Rock gone, as it would opt to more offensive based items like Specs or Scarf.

I still think at the current moment I would vote DNB on Sun, but this is the approach I see being best at the moment, let me know what you think

[29-Apr-20 11:11 AM] Luthier#1578
wait we're not considering a ban on trapping?

[29-Apr-20 11:11 AM] Luthier#1578
ok sorry i was acting hastily

[29-Apr-20 11:11 AM] Luthier#1578
i read ur paragraph through

[29-Apr-20 11:12 AM] Shrug#7659
i am not considering a ban on it

[29-Apr-20 11:13 AM] Luthier#1578
each is entitled to their own opinions 👍🏿

[29-Apr-20 11:15 AM] Serene Grace#5243
sun discussions make my head hurt 😖

[29-Apr-20 11:15 AM] levi#6206
is stability a factor when the meta's going to change in a month anyways?

[29-Apr-20 11:16 AM] levi#6206
that seems like a reason to care about stability less if anything since wed be dealing w an unstable meta either way

[29-Apr-20 11:16 AM] levi#6206
we could wait to see if any of the introductions make the suspect of choice drastically less viable maybe

[29-Apr-20 11:17 AM] levi#6206
but idk if i agree with treating suspects differently just bc a meta shift is coming up

[29-Apr-20 11:19 AM] levi#6206
it makes sense if we just dont want to go through the effort of running another suspect, but if we want a suspect idt it should be an active deterrent either

[29-Apr-20 11:19 AM] levi#6206
its not like the effort is wasted since the ban is still going to carry over through the next meta shift

[29-Apr-20 11:20 AM] levi#6206
gonna compile the next council minutes soon btw

[29-Apr-20 11:20 AM] Coconut#8762
if we ban diglett in a meta that would sorely benefit from diglett, we would potentially have to go through a process of unbanning it in a double jeopardy situation, which I would like to avoid

[29-Apr-20 11:21 AM] levi#6206
that feels like it's giving preferential treatment to diglett (or bulba) just bc it happens to occur the latest

[29-Apr-20 11:21 AM] levi#6206
what if the meta would benefit a lot from cutiefly or drifloon

[29-Apr-20 11:22 AM] levi#6206
which won't happen ofc but you get what i mean

[29-Apr-20 11:24 AM] Coconut#8762
I see your point, but it's the double jeopardy

[29-Apr-20 11:24 AM] Coconut#8762
that I'm more attempting to avoid

[29-Apr-20 11:25 AM] Serene Grace#5243
heysup can be the lawyer

[29-Apr-20 12:08 PM] BurntZebra#8147
if dlc adds a bunch of mons

[29-Apr-20 12:09 PM] BurntZebra#8147
do we want to test those mons first then retest vulpix/cutiefly etc

[redacted]

[30-Apr-20 10:13 AM] jake#8907
when is the dlc supposed to drop? june?

[30-Apr-20 10:14 AM] jake#8907
im curious what the approach of other tiers will be

[30-Apr-20 10:14 AM] jake#8907
regarding suspecting before dlc

[30-Apr-20 10:15 AM] jake#8907
another thing that i am interested in is what "trappers" means to everyone if that is the next suspect

[30-Apr-20 10:15 AM] jake#8907
like, trapinch or diglett individually? the ability?

[30-Apr-20 10:18 AM] starmaster#8286
i think suspecting trapinch sounds p stupid

[30-Apr-20 10:18 AM] starmaster#8286
so id always do diglett if we were to do it

[30-Apr-20 10:43 AM] levi#6206
Trapinch isn't rlly problematic at all rn imo

[30-Apr-20 10:43 AM] levi#6206
It was more problematic with rufflet maybe

[01-May-20 03:10 PM] Shrug#7659
also true in gen 7

[01-May-20 03:10 PM] Shrug#7659
pinch bancucks in shambles

[09-May-20 09:49 AM] Serene Grace#5243
sun suspect?

[09-May-20 07:37 PM] Luthier#1578
man we suspected pix and there were still routes for sun to be broken

[09-May-20 07:37 PM] Luthier#1578
with heatrock and what not

[09-May-20 07:37 PM] Luthier#1578
at this point i think the only two options are to suspect chlorophyll or heat rock

[09-May-20 07:37 PM] Luthier#1578
u can obv call me out and call me stupid for believing so, but this is my personal stance

[09-May-20 07:51 PM] jake#8907
im not sure how i feel about suspecting sun

[09-May-20 07:51 PM] jake#8907
it doesnt feel nearly as oppressive as it has been for the other times we have suspected

[09-May-20 07:51 PM] jake#8907
but it is strong

[09-May-20 07:53 PM] Luthier#1578
personally i think there should be other mons suspectedbut

[09-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578
it feels like such wasted efforts when the drop is in

[09-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578
20 days

[09-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578
by the time we put up suspect

[09-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578
conclude vote and readjust meta

[09-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578
we'll be in a new meta w new drops

[09-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578
i do think its tragic though that we have to endure through this

[09-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578
dlc are dropping at the absolute worst timings

[09-May-20 10:10 PM] levi#6206
which other mons do you have in mind?

[09-May-20 10:14 PM] BurntZebra#8147
feels like sun hasnt really been explored enough yet

[09-May-20 10:14 PM] BurntZebra#8147
like how many people have used sun in lcpl so far

[09-May-20 10:51 PM] Luthier#1578
trapinch and dug

[09-May-20 10:51 PM] Luthier#1578
sorry i didnt mean mons

[09-May-20 10:51 PM] Luthier#1578
i meant mechanics

[09-May-20 10:51 PM] Luthier#1578
of arena trap

[09-May-20 10:51 PM] Luthier#1578
errr ability

[09-May-20 10:51 PM] Luthier#1578
got i cannot talk

[09-May-20 10:52 PM] Luthier#1578
idk sun is stupidly busted imo

[09-May-20 11:07 PM] levi#6206
i dont agree with pinch at all

[09-May-20 11:07 PM] levi#6206
maybe diglett

[09-May-20 11:11 PM] Ninja#8225
yeah diglett maybe

[09-May-20 11:11 PM] Ninja#8225
in SM i still feel very strongly that diglett is healthy

[09-May-20 11:11 PM] Ninja#8225
bc it doesnt switch in and its really just an offensive threat

[09-May-20 11:11 PM] Ninja#8225
with Z being easily the most common

[09-May-20 11:11 PM] BurntZebra#8147
feels like they play a different role

[09-May-20 11:11 PM] Ninja#8225
but now its ust constant eviolite sets

[09-May-20 11:11 PM] Ninja#8225
i dont think its good for the meta

[09-May-20 11:11 PM] BurntZebra#8147
SM, diglett traps the broken stuff

[09-May-20 11:11 PM] BurntZebra#8147
SS, diglett supports the broken stuff

[09-May-20 11:12 PM] BurntZebra#8147
obv diglett can still support broken stuff in SM too

[09-May-20 11:12 PM] BurntZebra#8147
but its more one sided

[09-May-20 11:13 PM] Ninja#8225
yeah

[redacted]

[09-May-20 11:16 PM] Luthier#1578
well i mean pinch is def not as busted as diglett but

[09-May-20 11:16 PM] Luthier#1578
if we're gonna sus diglett i think we should sus pinch near or at the same time (again call me out if u disagree)

[09-May-20 11:16 PM] Luthier#1578
im asking for a suspect not a ban on them

[09-May-20 11:16 PM] Luthier#1578
although if it means anything i would hella ban diglett

[09-May-20 11:17 PM] Luthier#1578
and not ban pinch

[09-May-20 11:17 PM] Luthier#1578
those are just my viewpoints

[09-May-20 11:17 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i think we should only suspect mons that we think are banworthy

[09-May-20 11:17 PM] Luthier#1578
kk fair enough

[09-May-20 11:17 PM] Luthier#1578
i mean i just think we should lay off for a month and just try to be patient

[09-May-20 11:17 PM] Luthier#1578
until dlc

[09-May-20 11:17 PM] BurntZebra#8147
was anyone advocating to ban stuff

[09-May-20 11:17 PM] BurntZebra#8147
besides you

[09-May-20 11:17 PM] Luthier#1578
serene wanted to sus sun

[09-May-20 11:18 PM] BurntZebra#8147
is there a release date for dlc

[09-May-20 11:18 PM] Luthier#1578
jun 15th latest

[09-May-20 11:18 PM] BurntZebra#8147
or any idea what will come out with it

[09-May-20 11:18 PM] Luthier#1578
anytime before taht

[09-May-20 11:18 PM] Luthier#1578
can also happen

[09-May-20 11:18 PM] BurntZebra#8147
like lets say dlc comes out

[09-May-20 11:18 PM] BurntZebra#8147
what mons would make sun balanced

[09-May-20 11:18 PM] Luthier#1578
idk

[09-May-20 11:18 PM] BurntZebra#8147
or make cutiefly or rufflet balanced again

[09-May-20 11:19 PM] Luthier#1578
im just saying i dont like

[09-May-20 11:19 PM] BurntZebra#8147
or gastly

[09-May-20 11:19 PM] Luthier#1578
to toy with a meta

[09-May-20 11:19 PM] Luthier#1578
when sun could be viable

[09-May-20 11:19 PM] Luthier#1578
in the next meta

[09-May-20 11:19 PM] Luthier#1578
and we would have ended up wasting our time in here

[09-May-20 11:19 PM] Luthier#1578
and then our time there too cuz

[09-May-20 11:19 PM] BurntZebra#8147
its already viable now

[09-May-20 11:19 PM] Luthier#1578
wed have to resus

[09-May-20 11:19 PM] Luthier#1578
no im saying

[09-May-20 11:19 PM] Luthier#1578
well again, personal thoughts but

[09-May-20 11:19 PM] Luthier#1578
i think its busted now

[09-May-20 11:20 PM] Luthier#1578
but if its not busted, but fair game next meta

[09-May-20 11:20 PM] Luthier#1578
but we would have had to spend time banning it now

[09-May-20 11:20 PM] Luthier#1578
and then unbanning it after

[09-May-20 11:20 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i think we're too future focused

[09-May-20 11:20 PM] Luthier#1578
esp since it'll be running during LC open i think time is of the essence then

[09-May-20 11:20 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and time focused

[09-May-20 11:20 PM] Luthier#1578
i mean i understand but

[09-May-20 11:20 PM] Luthier#1578
its going to happen

[09-May-20 11:20 PM] Luthier#1578
during LC open

[09-May-20 11:20 PM] Luthier#1578
which is why i am bothered

[09-May-20 11:20 PM] BurntZebra#8147
like council didnt do shit in SM because the tier was going to end in 3 months

[09-May-20 11:20 PM] Luthier#1578
thats my only qualm

[09-May-20 11:20 PM] BurntZebra#8147
despite balancing SM could have been done in less than 3months

[09-May-20 11:20 PM] BurntZebra#8147
f

[09-May-20 11:20 PM] Luthier#1578
ya but

[09-May-20 11:20 PM] Luthier#1578
this is different from that

[09-May-20 11:21 PM] Luthier#1578
because this will maintain the same gen

[09-May-20 11:21 PM] Luthier#1578
and this gen will go on for years

[09-May-20 11:21 PM] Luthier#1578
whereas sm did not

[09-May-20 11:21 PM] BurntZebra#8147
lets say DLC drops all unreleased mons

[09-May-20 11:21 PM] Luthier#1578
(although that doesn't mean that the sm decision was right)

[09-May-20 11:21 PM] Luthier#1578
ok

[09-May-20 11:21 PM] BurntZebra#8147
mienfoo, abra, foongus, magnemite, etc

[09-May-20 11:21 PM] Luthier#1578
ok

[09-May-20 11:21 PM] BurntZebra#8147
do we just reset the tier

[09-May-20 11:21 PM] BurntZebra#8147
or do we toss em in all at once

[redacted]

[09-May-20 11:23 PM] Luthier#1578
anyways

[09-May-20 11:23 PM] Luthier#1578
back to the topic at hand

[09-May-20 11:23 PM] BurntZebra#8147
im not that big on taking usage from lcpl for SM

[09-May-20 11:23 PM] Luthier#1578
what to suspect and when

[09-May-20 11:23 PM] BurntZebra#8147
too small of a sample pool and its concentrated users

[09-May-20 11:24 PM] Luthier#1578
if we suspect, that is

[redacted]

[09-May-20 11:24 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i dont feel like we have anything to ban in SS right now

[09-May-20 11:24 PM] BurntZebra#8147
like theoretical things are sun/trapping

[09-May-20 11:24 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and they seem pretty divisive

[09-May-20 11:24 PM] Luthier#1578
i disagree but

[09-May-20 11:24 PM] Luthier#1578
i dont think we have time to suspect

[09-May-20 11:24 PM] Luthier#1578
idk

[09-May-20 11:24 PM] Luthier#1578
maybe im being conceited

[09-May-20 11:24 PM] BurntZebra#8147
what other things could be suspected

[09-May-20 11:25 PM] BurntZebra#8147
besides sun/trapping

[09-May-20 11:25 PM] Luthier#1578
nothing

[09-May-20 11:25 PM] Luthier#1578
i think

[09-May-20 11:25 PM] Luthier#1578
those two should be suspected

[09-May-20 11:25 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and im telling you that theres too mixed of an opinion right now on them

[09-May-20 11:25 PM] Luthier#1578
kk

[09-May-20 11:25 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i think the opinion on sun could change

[09-May-20 11:25 PM] BurntZebra#8147
if more people began to use it

[09-May-20 11:25 PM] Luthier#1578
i think we should just wait it until dlc

[09-May-20 11:25 PM] Luthier#1578
and see what it is then

[09-May-20 11:25 PM] Luthier#1578
and then form a more solid method of approach

[09-May-20 11:26 PM] Luthier#1578
im just saying its gonna suck when

[09-May-20 11:26 PM] Luthier#1578
all the good LCplayers are gonna drop like flies in LC open

[09-May-20 11:26 PM] Luthier#1578
cuz the tier will be so variance based

[09-May-20 11:26 PM] Luthier#1578
actually

[09-May-20 11:26 PM] Luthier#1578
thatll be every tier

[09-May-20 11:26 PM] Luthier#1578
nvr mind

[09-May-20 11:26 PM] Luthier#1578
this years slam will be a clownfest

[09-May-20 11:28 PM] Serene Grace#5243
Support a sun Suspect not necessarily a ban
Because it's such a  controversial topic with low collateral

[09-May-20 11:28 PM] Serene Grace#5243
Examining it sooner better than later

[09-May-20 11:52 PM] levi#6206
levi1304/29/2020
is stability a factor when the meta's going to change in a month anyways?
that seems like a reason to care about stability less if anything since wed be dealing w an unstable meta either way
we could wait to see if any of the introductions make the suspect of choice drastically less viable maybe
but idk if i agree with treating suspects differently just bc a meta shift is coming up
it makes sense if we just dont want to go through the effort of running another suspect, but if we want a suspect idt it should be an active deterrent either
its not like the effort is wasted since the ban is still going to carry over through the next meta shift
឵឵ ឵឵04/29/2020
if we ban diglett in a meta that would sorely benefit from diglett, we would potentially have to go through a process of unbanning it in a double jeopardy situation, which I would like to avoid
levi1304/29/2020
that feels like it's giving preferential treatment to diglett (or bulba) just bc it happens to occur the latest
what if the meta would benefit a lot from cutiefly or drifloon
which won't happen ofc but you get what i mean

[09-May-20 11:52 PM] levi#6206
these were my thoughts from before, i get the idea behind waiting for the dlc to drop but i dont agree

[09-May-20 11:53 PM] levi#6206
i generally just dont agree w considering future shifts when discussing the current meta