Richard Nixon Al Haig on May 11 1973

A transcript of a conversation between Richard Nixon and Al Haig, dealing with Daniel Ellsberg, the FBI, and Mark Felt (Deep Throat). This transcript is from Stanley Kutler's excellent Abuse of Power.

Audio file can be found at:
http://www.nixonlibrary.gov/forresearchers/find/tapes/tape916/916-011.mp3

Video with audio and transcript is on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nUxQxNFvpI

MAY 11, 1973: THE PRESIDENT AND HAIG, 9:19-10:10 A.M., OVAL OFFICE

Nixon and Haig discuss the Administration's history of wiretapping of National Security Council and media people. William Sullivan, formerly the Number Three man in the FBI hierarchy, provided information for Haig. For Haig, the stakes are simple and old-fashioned: "good, strong Americanism versus left-wing sabotage." Nixon apparently understood. The two are concerned that Elliot Richardson is getting "goosey." Finally, they consider some possible nominees for the FBI directorship in a rather desultory manner.

SEGMENT ONE

HAIG
There's a hearing today...you got a funny situation at the FBI. Remember when I talked to you back about Sullivan? Sullivan would have been the best, no question. But when Ruckelshaus got over there, this number two guy at the FBI- Felt or-

NIXON
Felt.

HAIG
Started talking again about these old wiretaps...saying, you've got to investigate. First, there's a suspicious leak: the fact that there had been wiretaps. You've got to investigate. First, there's a suspicion that Felt leaked. The fact that there had been wiretaps. To Time.

NIXON
I know about that. Felt is supposed to be the leaker.

HAIG
Bad guy. Now, last night he gave the whole thing...it's also the Ruckelshaus [William Ruckelshaus, acting director of the FBI] investigation, to the New York Times.

NIXON
Felt did?

HAIG
Yeah. He's got to go. But we've got to be careful as to when we cut his nuts off. He's bad-

NIXON
What did his investigation [Ruckelshaus's] show up?

HAIG
It really doesn't show anything, but it's going to screw up the whole Ellsberg [Daniel Ellsberg] case. Because, you recall, Ellsberg was in one of the taps of Halperin's [Morton Halperin, member of the National Security Concil].

NIXON
(unintelligible)

HAIG
No no, Ellsberg...they were tapping Halperin, in 1970...and he was talking to Ellsberg...

(national security withdrawn)

HAIG
...apparently, John remembered that. John Ehrlichman. So, when the Ellsberg papers leaked, he called Marty in and said: get me those old tapes. They were all delivered to John. Now, that's irregular procedure, there's nothing illegal about it, it's irregular procedure between justice and the bureau.

NIXON
Alright, now. When they ask for those papers, can we give it to them?

HAIG
No.

NIXON
I simply say no?

HAIG
Absolutely not. Now, the problem is, the tapes were destroyed. As I understand it.

NIXON
I think so, yes. They were all destroyed.

HAIG
The burden of proof is on the government to prove that the taps were legitimate. Which they were. So it's very probable, according to Elliot, that the judge is going to dismiss the Ellsberg case and call a mistrial. Due to the inference that they were - some inference, that the White House was building a case against Ellsberg even before the papers were stolen. That's the goddamn weird circumstances about it.

NIXON
Oh, I see. In other words, that time the FBI was tapping Halperin because of his leaks, they ran into a Halperin conversation with Ellsberg. Well, you see Halperin was probably in on the leaks.

HAIG
It wouldn't surprise me one bit.

NIXON
Yup. DAMN. And then Ehrlichman so testified. Or Ehrlichman- Felt- he's got Felt exposed. We know that Felt leaked this to the <i>Times</i>?

HAIG
Well, according to Elliot, they're sure. And, as a matter of fact, I talked to Bill Sullivan yesterday. And what Felt is doing is trying to kill Bill Sullivan. So he can be director of the FBI, and not Bill Sullivan. These guys are just unbelievable. So, I think we can't go to  anyone else...in the FBI. That place is riddled and rotten.

NIXON
See. Felt, of course, is aware of these tapes, what we say to him now, let's be sure (unintelligible) I'll just simply say, fuck, we have not, or we're not going to comment, or what? I don't know what the hell to say.

HAIG
Well, I've got a lead right now with the lawyer. Buzhardt. Buzhardt knew this anyhow from being  with Laird that there were these tapes, because he had exposure to them, apparently through-

NIXON
Let me tell you why. Ehrlichman, before he left, said: "Look, I had a bundle of stuff, that was involved in proof, leaked stuff, which I had put in a safe. Here.

HAIG
In here. That's good.

NIXON
Oh yes, in here. I said fine, I don't want to know anything about it. That's all.

HAIG
That's bad stuff. That's going to go anywhere.

NIXON
When they ask if we have anything here.

HAIG
Well, it wouldn't. It wouldn't be bad. To have a tape of that conversation become public. Of that one. Because it indicts Ellsberg, and Halperin. Two real shits. So, that's what I'm going to talk to Buzhardt about.

NIXON
Except it does, it will show widespread tapping.

HAIG
They know that. That's going to be proved.

NIXON
Alright.

HAIG
That there were sixteen newsmen tapped, is now...is now a fact.

SEGMENT TWO

HAIG
....Well, we'll have to see how the hearing goes today - [William] Sullivan is over there. He's just going to say this is a result of J. Edgar Hoover's deception to the President and national security leaks and if this is the kind of thing that, uh, had always been done - traditionally.

NIXON
....Sullivan told you that's what he was going to say? Mitchell discussed it too?

HAIG
The Attorney General approved every single tap that was going on, and that's in accordance with the Kennedy-Clark directive they imposed.... I'm not at all worried. Goddamn it, and we may ultimately have to counterattack with some of that stuff. Put it out - what we were doing. But, you see, when the time is up, people start to get filled, then we've got to take the counter-offensive because, Goddamn it, what's at stake here is good, strong Americanism versus left-wing -

NIXON
Left-wing -

HAIG
Creeps - sabotage. Hell, there were sabotaged discussions, in this- in that talk - that was treason.

NIXON
Let me tell you this. I did not order the taps to Hoover. I didn't tell Hoover to tap this, tap that or-

HAIG
He did. He developed lies. When one guy's name would surface, and it was suspicious, they put a tap on him-

NIXON
He tapped Brandon [journalist Henry Brandon] for years, long before I ever got here.

28:37-31:02

NIXON
They're all trying to save their ass. Alright. Let's come again now. You think Sullivan will be a good witness?

HAIG
Yes, I do...Oh, I think he'll say that J. Edgar Hoover, uh, there were leaks - looked like they were coming out of the White House staff or someplace in the government, and that J. Edgar Hoover authorized these taps. Uh, that the reports of them as they always have been provided  to the White House - came over memos from J. Edgar Hoover to the President which were delivered initially to, uh, Kissinger...[W]ell, initially he saw them all.

NIXON
But, hell, he [Kissinger] was reading everything.

HAIG
Right. Then it was changed after about four months and we got only what involved NSC people.

NIXON
Right.

HAIG
And they started going directly to John.

NIXON
Ehrlichman, right.

HAIG
Then, they were terminated when it became - the Supreme Court ruling - made tapping a questionable activity. We terminated it, as I understand it. We were-

NIXON
Yeah, terminated, then the Hunt thing [plumbers] started after that.

HAIG
Well, that's the trouble. So, it's not good to draw on the purity of this thing.

NIXON
Yeah. The Hunt thing is tough...I don't know, Ehrlichman says they did not tap, but I don't know....

HAIG
I would suspect he didn't...That's awfully hard to do...

(national security withheld)

NIXON
So, I think were making him look better - maybe (uninteligibile) he was going to do a second story job, so-called at the Brookings Institute, which he didn't do and he was going to try to do something in Georgetown, which he did not do...We have nothing on Hunt on taps....

(33:22-34:12)

And, don't you believe [Mark] Felt leaked this to the <i>Times</i>?

HAIG
That's the report Elliot had and Sullivan told me that that's what's going on.

NIXON
Well, [Felt] used the leak to <i>Time</i> magazine. He's a bad guy, you see.

HAIG
Very bad. He's got to go.

NIXON
He's got to go...You still don't have anybody worth a damn at the FBI....

HAIG
Got to get an outsider and we ought to get the dean of the law school [name unknown]...cause he'd be holier than Caesar's wife and uh-

NIXON
Well, let's get the dean of the law school...Sullivan could help a lot....I think he knows about the Johnson tapings in 1968....

HAIG
He knows everything...And he is 100 percent behind you...He is a patriot, that's why.

NIXON
What's he think of Felt? What's he think he's up to?

HAIG
Thinks he's trying to-

NIXON
Be head of the Bureau.

HAIG
I don't know whether to believe these guys - except I have great confidence in Sullivan. For years, he's been really the best man in the Bureau.

NIXON
But Hoover didn't like him - Hoover fired him.

HAIG
Because he kept pressing Hoover to do the things that had to be done in the reforms.

NIXON
Yeah. But when Sullivan goes over now, did he already testify, is it too late to- do you think-

HAIG
He knows.

NIXON
He's ready to say...what at this point?

HAIG
Well, it depends on what they really ask him, but he's just going to say this was done, regularly, in the past-

NIXON
-through other administrations too?

HAIG
Yeah.

NIXON
So I suppose the story is that the president ordered the tapping.

HAIG
Do you really think so?

NIXON
Yeah. The way Sullivan is going to say is that Hoover talked to the President? Actually, what happened is that Mitchell ordered it, you see. I, he - Hoover talked to me about it and I said get the dope, you know. Do the best you can....

HAIG
Sullivan's perspective of this is what he's got inside the department where he was and Hoover called him in and said we're going to do this....He's an honest, straight, patriotic guy, and this happens to be totally on the straight patriotic action, and it's going to be portrayed that way. That's good. It's the lack of knowledge on this thing that-

NIXON
I know.

HAIG
-that's bad.

NIXON
It creates the impression that we were just doing Ellsberg, for Christ, we're doing Ellsberg. And Ehrlichman rememebers-

HAIG
I'm sure that's how it happened! Because it was such a startling discussion between two guys who were working intimately in our government. Two total traitorous...their character was bad, and their loyalty was bad.

NIXON
They were talking at that time of leaks and things?

HAIG
And Halperin, how to sabotage the Vietnam policies.

NIXON
Ellsberg and Halperin?

HAIG
Yup. There was [antagonistic?] statements there, by Ellsberg. It was just anti-establishment pap.

(withdrawn, national security)

NIXON
Well, it's tough. We don't know whether you can take the line. Just don't put it out. Elliot, uh, you can't have Elliot get goosey and decide he doesn't want to be Attorney General. That would be a terrible blow.

HAIG
Bring [former CIA Director] John McCone in or somebody like that.

NIXON
Oh. Another lawyer. Is Elliot that goosey?

HAIG
No, I don't think so. I think he's confident. I think he's - but, he gets - he just had - well, they keep in touch with him everyday so he doesn't get to thinking things are going on that aren't going on.

SEGMENT THREE

HAIG
And that's the way this thing has to be presented - my God, this has been done by Kennedy, Johnson-

NIXON
And, we did less of it.

HAIG
We did less of it.

NIXON
I remember I said that in a news conference, we had seventy eight so-called leaks. I mean, uh, taps.

(48:29-48:50)

NIXON
Let's not get a bad rap on this one.

HAIG
It would be an absolute travesty and tragedy, and I - that's what I told Elliot - Goddamn it, I happen to know he had started bleating to me about the situation. I said, "Elliot, I happen to know about these taps." I said, "Goddamn it, Henry was serviced with them. They involved our people. We fired two people on the head of them - you know, we got rid of them and we had other grounds too"...[T]hat's straight prudent - protection of the national interests, and it was totally above board. The Attorney General approved every one.

NIXON
Right.

HAIG
One led to another, sometimes they'd listen to a guy for a period, nothing came up, so they'd drop him. It was all predicated on leaks. He [Elliot Richardson] said, nah. What's good, he said, "That's good, Al, I'm glad to hear that. But we do have the problem of the imagery of it." I said, that's right, and that's what we cannot take a bad rap for.

NIXON
That's right. He's got to go on the offensive with the national security line. I wish to God Sullivan would do that. Sullivan will.

HAIG
He's an old-

(tape ends)