[02:40] +AM: pie the amount of threats diminishes as the tier slowly stabilizes it took ORAS, and it still is to a degree stabilizing
[02:40] +montecrist0: but w/e we've discussed this before man
[02:41] @Disaster Area: man AM I think I'd maybe
[02:41] +AM: a lot of teams fall under a pretty specific archtype these days
[02:41] @Disaster Area: rather discuss this in pm
[02:41] +AM: why?
[02:41] +AM: I hate pms
[02:41] #Pomman: I would rather it be discussed
[02:41] @Disaster Area: too distracting with this room full of people
[02:41] @Disaster Area: lol
[02:41] #Pomman: In here
[02:41] @Disaster Area: okay
[02:41] @peli: open chat is fine, I would like to hear the thoughts also
[02:41] #Pomman: I like this sort of conversation
[02:41] @peli: =]
[02:41] %DG9: Oh AM no wonder why you hate me
[02:41] +montecrist0: I like this room
[02:41] @Disaster Area: so do I but it feels like
[02:41] +ashes and dust~: i dont think
[02:41] +ashes and dust~: this is distracting
[02:41] +montecrist0: but I just dont want to argue with am because weve done it before
[02:41] @Disaster Area: too many cooks ruin the soup
[02:41] +ashes and dust~: i enjoy it
[02:41] @Disaster Area: too many people talking and it takes forever to cover
[02:41] @Disaster Area: a single point
[02:41] +montecrist0: and we reached the conclusion of agreeing to disagree im p sure
[02:42] +montecrist0: i mean thats how most arguments with competent people end
[02:42] @Disaster Area: okay then
[02:42] +AM: it's better talking here I can assure you I don't give a fuck about half my pms
[02:42] @Disaster Area: you can just stay quiet
[02:42] @Disaster Area: and let AM and I any anyone else
[02:42] @Disaster Area: talk
[02:42] +ashes and dust~: ...
[02:42] +AM: lmfao
AM was promoted to Room Moderator by Pomman.
Moderated chat was set to @!
Only users of rank @ and higher can talk.
[02:42] #Pomman: :P
[02:42] @AM: rofl
[02:42] @Disaster Area: okay that works for me
[02:42] @Disaster Area: i was tempted to suggest it but I felt rude
[02:42] @peli: figured that was coming
[02:42] @peli: lol
[02:42] #Pomman: I'll take it off when the convo ends
[02:42] @magsyy: hi
[02:42] @AM: better with more cooks but then again I'm a man of the peeps
[02:42] @Disaster Area: okay wonderful
[02:42] @AM: well w/e
[02:42] @Disaster Area: AM please continue
[02:42] @AM: ask away
[02:42] @magsyy: hi am
[02:42] @AM: forgot what I was saying
[02:42] @magsyy: :)
[02:42] @NJNP: [:
[02:43] @Disaster Area: uhh something about matchup like
[02:43] @Disaster Area: u were saying about
[02:43] @Disaster Area: dislike vs broken
[02:43] @AM: I mean
[02:43] @AM: ask me more specifics
[02:43] @AM: instead of me generalizing
[02:44] @Disaster Area: I'm not really familiar enough in OU to talk specifics in some ways. My experience is more general, knowing the specifics of ubers and general complaints about OU
[02:44] @AM: ok
[02:44] @Disaster Area: combined with general cross-gen battle experience
[02:44] @Disaster Area: okay well I think my first point is
[02:44] @Disaster Area: how much agreement, and from who, does there need to be
[02:44] @Disaster Area: for matchup to be considered an issue that needs to be formally addressed in the fashions being discussed in jpw's thread
[02:45] @Disaster Area: e.g. the variations of tournament format
[02:45] @Disaster Area: (which imo is a good idea, sideboarding I can't comment really but it shouldn't be used much)
[02:45] @Disaster Area: how do you assess that there is enough agreement that
[02:45] @AM: this matchup issue was addressed awhile back even before jpw discussed it fyi. It isn't exactly a new thing as far back as since hugo was in OU council.
[02:45] @Disaster Area: you can't 'git gud' or whatever, can't cover everything or whatever you want, that there exist these matchup issues
[02:45] @AM: to give you an idea
[02:45] @Disaster Area: yeah i can imagine
[02:46] @Disaster Area: it's important because
[02:46] @Disaster Area: jpw mentions later gens specifically
[02:46] @AM: later gens is where the problem lies
[02:46] @AM: not this current gen
[02:46] @Disaster Area: yeah, that's what this part of the discussion
[02:46] @Disaster Area: is about
[02:47] @Disaster Area: when do you as a community recognise it as an actual issue
[02:47] @Disaster Area: rather than with 'git gud' or something
[02:48] @AM: we already know it's an issue but the community is split to the point it's at a stalemate. You have one side who believes it's a legitimate problem and the others who believe it's the times changing
[02:48] @Disaster Area: mm. Can we discuss these 2 hypotheses separately
[02:48] @AM: sure
[02:48] @Disaster Area: firstly i wanna talk about the idea that it's not an issue side
[02:48] @Disaster Area: one thing that comes to mind
[02:48] @Disaster Area: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/game-balance-and-yomi if you go down to matchup charts section
[02:48] @AM: ben gay and tesung part of the OU council are on this side
[02:48] @Disaster Area: i'm thinking about jpw's points about
[02:48] @AM: to give you an idea
[02:49] @NJNP: Am sry to interrupt, i know the meta doesn't need genesect but the meta also didn't need slash and it got suspected, any chance on gen making a suspect appearance. I'd like to see how it plays out
[02:49] @Disaster Area: teams having various levels of matchup against eachother
[02:49] @AM: not sure yet
[02:49] @AM: I'll address that later
[02:49] @AM: let me take a look pie
[02:49] @Disaster Area: like e.g. mega manec teams apparently have
[02:49] @Disaster Area: good matchups versus HO
[02:49] @AM: ok
[02:49] @AM: let me explain that
[02:49] @Disaster Area: so versus HO teams they might be 5.5-4.5 or 8-2's or whatever
[02:49] @AM: cause PK Gaming sort of asked me about it that I'll just reiterate
[02:49] @Disaster Area: and the problem perceived by people is too many of the matchups where the numbers are large differences
[02:50] @AM: alright
[02:50] @AM: as far as m-manectric goes
[02:51] @AM: m-manectric is an aspect of a typing that has an upper advantage against offensive teams in general
[02:51] @AM: electrics
[02:51] @AM: as far as OU goes
[02:51] @Disaster Area: (also when you are done discussing manectric I want to discuss baton pass momentarily)
[02:51] @AM: they've always been the dark horse typing that necessitates electric switch ins almost mandatory these days a ground
[02:51] @AM: but
[02:52] @AM: the best electrics are able to run hp ice efficiently
[02:52] @AM: m-manectric can do this
[02:52] @AM: and has fire coverage
[02:52] @AM: every dominant hyper offensive threat
[02:52] @AM: is prone to these
[02:52] @AM: that is why m-manectric will usually have a favorable matchup against offense
[02:52] @AM: because all the other grounds that aren't x4 weak to ice ( the ones found on offense) are passive and or balanced mons
[02:52] @Disaster Area: mm I think that this idea that sirlin is using to some degree allows us to quantify the matchups between teams.
[02:52] @AM: every offensive player knows this
[02:53] @Disaster Area: yeah
Moderated chat was set to autoconfirmed!
Only users of rank autoconfirmed and higher can talk.
[02:53] @AM: m-manectric, m-lopunny, m-alakazam, weavile, m-aero, anything above a 115 speed tier basically
[02:53] PomManAFK: Going afk
[02:53] @AM: or more specifcally 110+ base speed
[02:53] @Disaster Area: ninjask
[02:53] @AM: is what thrives in an offensive meta
[02:54] @AM: lol
[02:54] @AM: anyways
[02:54] @Disaster Area: anyways
[02:54] @AM: BP
[02:54] @Disaster Area: can I mention baton pass quickly
[02:54] @Disaster Area: w.r.t.
[02:54] @Disaster Area: the sirlin thing
[02:54] @Disaster Area: I think the simplest way to explain why it's 'broken' as a team
[02:54] @Disaster Area: is because of its matchups can be described as being
[02:54] @Disaster Area: almost totally say
[02:54] @Disaster Area: 8-2 9-1 or 10-0
[02:54] @Disaster Area: if you have a quick look at the article
[02:54] @AM: idk what there is to explain because I wanted a blanket ban on BP but others didn't so there needs to be middle ground
[02:54] @Disaster Area: with the odd one which is the opposite direction
[02:55] @Disaster Area: well I'm not saying about
[02:55] @Disaster Area: the specifics of
[02:55] @Disaster Area: nerfing BP at all
[02:55] @AM: ok
[02:55] @Disaster Area: I'm just saying the reason that
[02:55] @Disaster Area: BP teams were broken
[02:55] @Disaster Area: is because they have
[02:55] @peli: quick thing: am are you still council member?
[02:55] @Disaster Area: the majority of their matchups are
[02:55] @AM: yes
[02:55] @Disaster Area: really really heavily in their favour,
[02:55] @Disaster Area: with a small handful of equal to terrible matchups
[02:56] @AM: that's cause the legitimate tools for BP are small if nonexistent in reality
[02:56] @Disaster Area: and it imbalances the matchups terribly etc., or you could alternatively describe it
[02:56] @AM: in the realm of it all
[02:56] @Disaster Area: as dominating the matchup chart
[02:56] @Disaster Area: in a way you could really say that about any hypothetical team
[02:56] @AM: matchups that dominate to the level of BP are normally systematic. Those are the ones we normally keep a lookout for
[02:56] @Disaster Area: it doesn't matter specifically what BP is
[02:56] @Disaster Area: the problem is that
[02:56] @AM: that's the problem
[02:56] @Disaster Area: the team dominates with almost completely exceptional matchups
[02:57] @AM: not every team follows that systematic approach though
[02:57] @Disaster Area: and the teams with good to great matchups versus bP have poorer matchups overall
[02:57] @AM: because unlike BP there's more room for human error
[02:57] @Disaster Area: mm it's not impossible though
[02:57] @AM: in the case of other archtypes
[02:57] @Disaster Area: like uhh take this example
[02:57] @Disaster Area: frmo balanced hackmons
[02:57] @Disaster Area: I saw it when discussing ACRE on IRC
[02:57] @Disaster Area: there was a team that went 46-1 described as
[02:57] @Disaster Area: paranoid stall
[02:57] @Disaster Area: and you had a list of rulse you had to follow basically
[02:58] @Disaster Area: it was systematic though not quite to BP's degree
[02:58] @Disaster Area: lemme find it but
[02:58] @Disaster Area: I mean I'm not saying
[02:58] @AM: lol
[02:58] @Disaster Area: paranoid stall is broken or anything
[02:58] @AM: was that
[02:58] @Disaster Area: could be that BH players all suck
[02:58] @AM: brokenwings?
[02:58] @AM: oh
[02:58] @AM: brokenwings did that in ubers lol
[02:58] @Disaster Area: BUT the point is that
[02:58] @Disaster Area: a team of that sort
[02:58] @AM: that exact record
[02:59] @Disaster Area: could very well exist etc in some metagame, possibly standard, where you can ardently follow rules that are beyond mere rules of thumb
[02:59] @Disaster Area: that has consistently great matchups versus everything if you follow those rules
[02:59] @Disaster Area: the only thing separating BP and paranoid stall really
[02:59] @Disaster Area: is that the rules for paranoid stall are more complex
[02:59] @Disaster Area: to directly follow
[02:59] @AM: in what manner?
[02:59] @Disaster Area: well with BP or even
[02:59] @Disaster Area: swagger
[03:00] @Disaster Area: the recipe to follow is very obvious
[03:00] @Disaster Area: whereas the rules of paranoid stall I guess cover things in a
[03:00] @Disaster Area: slightly broader manner
[03:00] @Disaster Area: lemme try and find it give me a minute
[03:00] @AM: I mean
[03:00] @AM: I follow rules in a broader manner with a lot of my teams
[03:00] @AM: where I know what to execute at what point
[03:00] @Disaster Area: yeah
[03:00] @Disaster Area: with stall in particular it can be played in that way to some degree
[03:00] @Disaster Area: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-a-paranoid-stall-balanced-hackmons-team-win-loss-46-1.3495854/
[03:00] @Disaster Area: with BP
[03:01] @Disaster Area: it's just that to a more extreme point
[03:01] @AM: that's just part of playing and understanding your own teambuilding and plying philosophy
[03:01] @Disaster Area: where your optimal play ALWAYS follows those rules
[03:01] @AM: you do realize adrian marin is a genius right?
[03:01] @Disaster Area: in the conclusion it recommends that
[03:01] @AM: lol
[03:01] @Disaster Area: team raters follow the guidlines religiously
[03:01] @AM: this comes back to the human error thing
[03:02] @AM: it just so happens adrian revealed that formula
[03:02] @Disaster Area: anyway as I say I think the main difference between it and BP is that
[03:02] @Disaster Area: they're less stringent rules
[03:02] @Disaster Area: and allow for more ways in which to play things
[03:03] @Disaster Area: whereas BP or more extremely swagger
[03:03] @Disaster Area: are extremely systematic
[03:03] @Disaster Area: and more basic as a consequence
[03:03] @AM: the rules are more basic cause it's following the nature of a much more simple tier
[03:04] @AM: the rules have to balance out with the complexity of said tier
[03:04] @AM: in regards to team building and playing
[03:04] @Disaster Area: anyway my point is more that
[03:04] @Disaster Area: 'any' team could have
[03:04] @Disaster Area: a similar match up chart
[03:04] @Disaster Area: to baton pass
[03:04] @Disaster Area: as it had in OU
[03:04] @Disaster Area: at its peak
[03:04] @AM: I don't agree with that
[03:05] @Disaster Area: well it's not qutie the same because
[03:05] @Disaster Area: 'any' team
[03:05] @Disaster Area: won't be so easy to blindly follow the rules of
[03:05] @Disaster Area: or even explain the rules
[03:05] @Disaster Area: but it doesn't mean that at the top level of play there couldn't exist a near-perfect team in this sense
[03:06] @AM: every team in ORAS as of right now
[03:06] @Disaster Area: (though I don't think the discovery of such a thing is likely)
[03:06] @AM: has an exploit
[03:06] @Disaster Area: yeah
[03:06] @AM: perfection is practically impossible
[03:06] @Disaster Area: on the other hand maybe it can't happen in ORAS
[03:06] @Disaster Area: just due to the amount of threats
[03:06] @AM: yes
[03:06] @Disaster Area: at least without BP and swagger
[03:07] @Disaster Area: in short you've removed
[03:07] @Disaster Area: the most ridiculous of matchup issues
[03:07] @Disaster Area: i.e. the matchups where it's heavily one-sided
[03:07] @Disaster Area: NOW what you're seeing in ORAS perhaps is
[03:07] @Disaster Area: a really complex mix where
[03:07] @Disaster Area: there are very many teams
[03:07] @Disaster Area: that all have matchups versus eachother
[03:07] @Disaster Area: ranging from very balanced and equal
[03:07] @Disaster Area: to the point where it's very challenging
[03:07] @Disaster Area: or even a 6-0 (maybe?)
[03:08] @Disaster Area: the trouble you have is
[03:08] @Disaster Area: no one team is the culprit
[03:08] @Disaster Area: and some people are more tolerant
[03:08] @Disaster Area: to this than others
[03:08] @AM: something being a challenge shouldn't be a cop out to be leniant on players who can't accept the fact they got 6-0d by something that in the context of teambuilding you have the ability to play around
[03:08] @Disaster Area: obviously a certain amount of it depends on your skill, with less skill alkl your matchups are worse
[03:08] %gbhg: why is am
[03:08] %gbhg: A mod
[03:08] +Mob Squad: hes fancy like that
[03:08] %gbhg: godamn it
[03:08] @Disaster Area: gbhg so we could have modchat earlier
[03:08] @Disaster Area: cos too many people were interrupting the chat
[03:08] %gbhg: I liked it when I was above AM
[03:08] @Peli: so they could have a chat at modchat @
[03:09] %gbhg: In at least ONE room
[03:09] @Disaster Area: now then AM if we aren't to be lenient to teambuilders and
[03:09] @Disaster Area: remove from the 'pool' of teams
[03:09] @Disaster Area: all of those that get 6-0d by something fairly relevant
[03:09] @magsyy: am is funny
[03:09] %gbhg: Disaster Area you are piexplode
[03:09] @Disaster Area: you still have a lot of matchups
[03:09] %gbhg: right?
[03:09] @Disaster Area: yes now shut up
[03:09] %gbhg: rude
[03:09] @Disaster Area: you still have a lot of matchups that might be
[03:09] @Disaster Area: very heavily in one person's favour
[03:10] @Disaster Area: where the person in the worse position can still play around
[03:10] @Disaster Area: but it's very much in the opponent's favour
[03:10] @Disaster Area: the trouble is some people are
[03:10] @Disaster Area: happy playing a matchup where it's 3-7 or even 2-8 on that scale
[03:10] @Disaster Area: as on the sirlin link
[03:10] @Disaster Area: whereas some people aren't happy if they're playing worse than 4-6 say
[03:10] %LeoLancaster: o
[03:11] @Disaster Area: but very few if any teams might meet
[03:11] %LeoLancaster: I can talk now
[03:11] %LeoLancaster: good evening all ^.^
[03:11] @Disaster Area: certain people's leniency towards matchups
[03:11] @Disaster Area: in general
[03:11] @Disaster Area: good evening
[03:11] @Peli: hello leo
[03:11] @Disaster Area: it's not black and white saying
[03:11] @Disaster Area: there aren't/are matchup issues
[03:11] @Disaster Area: it's a case of personal taste and the degree between teams and players
[03:12] @Disaster Area: the extent to which matchup is an issue, both down to personal tolerance and how good a 'metagame pick' or whatever a team is
[03:12] @AM: so what's the actual question?
[03:12] @Disaster Area: the question is how do you deal with a situation where
[03:12] @Disaster Area: the majority of players personal taste makes them unhappy with the level of matchup
[03:12] @Disaster Area: but arguably nothing is broken or banning any selection of things won't fix the issues
[03:13] @Disaster Area: or the issues are simply so complex to untangle it's unfeasible/impossible
[03:13] @Disaster Area: how do you 1) recognise that it's that scenario and 2) adapt tournaments to suit this
[03:13] @AM: [22:13] @Disaster Area: but arguably nothing is broken or banning any selection of things won't fix the issues
[03:13] @AM: [22:13] @Disaster Area: or the issues are simply so complex to untangle it's unfeasible/impossible
[03:13] @Disaster Area: note I'm not saying
[03:13] @NJNP: genesect discussion </3
[03:13] @Disaster Area: nothing is broken in OU
[03:13] @AM: those are what I would emphasize
[03:13] @AM: the first point....[22:13] @Disaster Area: the majority of players personal taste makes them unhappy with the level of matchup
[03:13] @AM: is moot
[03:14] @AM: for a bunch of reasons
[03:14] %LeoLancaster: one thing that'd work for quite a while down the road
[03:14] %LeoLancaster: is accept that the lower tiers will have this problem to a much smaller degree
[03:14] @Disaster Area: yeah of course
[03:14] @Disaster Area: also here's another question
[03:14] @AM: pie we recognize the scenario when we're aware they're 100+ things to account for and or legitimately can work
[03:14] %LeoLancaster: and make said lower tier more prominent in the tour scene
[03:15] @AM: it's not the tournaments that
[03:15] @AM: really adapt
[03:15] @Disaster Area: if you had a tier where you had these matchup issues and another tier with less matchup issues by a long way but would take a lot of effort and shift to move to that tier being the standard
[03:15] @Disaster Area: what would you choose?
[03:15] @AM: it's the players within those tournaments
[03:15] @AM: and they're capabilities as such to adapt
[03:15] @Disaster Area: AM I mean adapting to changing formats e.g. more bo3 bo5 double elimination swiss etc sort of thing
[03:15] %DG9: Gnight
[03:15] %LeoLancaster: night DG9
[03:15] @Peli: night groudon
[03:16] @Disaster Area: to mitigate the fact that these matchup issues (whether or not you feel them to be problematic is moot) affect the game to a degree
[03:16] @AM: the problem with your prior question pie is like I told soulgazer you're hitting a very thin line of subjectivity as to what is perceived as the mons who induce these scenarios of matchup
[03:16] @Disaster Area: that a lot of players are unhappy with
[03:16] @AM: I could argue that
[03:16] @AM: m-metagross is the most matchup based mon in the entire tier
[03:16] @AM: and has created the tier we are playing now
[03:16] @Disaster Area: yeah exactly AM I don't think that we can ban stuff so easily by arguing that it messes up the matchup
[03:17] @Disaster Area: because in some ways it's not the ONE threat being too much but more the 50+ that you need to prepare for
[03:17] @Disaster Area: having one mega per team doesn't help since
[03:17] %gbhg: I don't see megagross being used that much
[03:17] @Disaster Area: they cover larger amounts of the metagame than other mons
[03:17] @AM: the matchup problems effect the game but it's always going to be the community at large
[03:17] @Disaster Area: and are more threatening
[03:17] %gbhg: I actually see manaphy way more
[03:17] @AM: pie it's about role compression
[03:17] @Disaster Area: i understand that
[03:17] @AM: as far as covering threats goes
[03:17] Minnow: dafuq is this
[03:18] %gbhg: shh Minnow
[03:18] @Disaster Area: the trouble is that role compression is warped in OU
[03:18] @Disaster Area: by the peculiar rules of megas
[03:18] @Disaster Area: you have these mons that compress massively but you can only have one
[03:18] @AM: not necessarily
[03:18] @Disaster Area: and they give you more stuff with which you must compress roles for (i.e. morethreats to prepare for)
[03:18] @Disaster Area: well
[03:18] @Disaster Area: I'm not saying
[03:18] @Disaster Area: megas are the problem
[03:19] @Disaster Area: but they exascerbate it
[03:19] @AM: most teambuilds can accomodate for general role compression while playing around nuisances through just solid playing
[03:19] @Disaster Area: at least conceptually
[03:19] @AM: like all of heists teams so far in wcop
[03:19] @AM: were mediocre at best if not bad
[03:19] @AM: but he made up for it
[03:19] @AM: through his playing
[03:19] @Disaster Area: that's basically saying
[03:19] @Disaster Area: every match he has a 3-7 matchup
[03:19] @Disaster Area: but because he's good he can win every 3-7 matchup
[03:19] @AM: he doesn't win them all though
[03:20] @Disaster Area: well I'm being general
[03:20] @AM: due to human nature and the way of human error
[03:20] @AM: and the complexity of said nature
[03:20] @Disaster Area: and the probability in the game too of course
[03:20] @AM: yes I know but there;s too many factors you're trying to take into account
[03:20] @AM: and mathematics that are skewed by the anomaly of the RNG itself
[03:20] @Disaster Area: indeed I'm not saying we need to create values or whatever for this I'm just using them
[03:20] @Disaster Area: to illustrate my points
[03:21] @Disaster Area: basically heist is a really good player but a bad teambuilder so he has
[03:21] @Disaster Area: persistent bad matchups due to bringing bad teams
[03:21] @Disaster Area: but he manages to win a large number of bad matchups
[03:21] @Disaster Area: by being that much better than his opponents
Minnow was promoted to Room Voice by Disaster Area.
[03:23] @AM: go on....
[03:23] @Disaster Area: hmm.. I'm not sure where it was going. But does what i said there make sense?
[03:23] @Disaster Area: i was just describing the heist situation that you brought up. Let's read up and see why you brought it up *-*
[03:23] @NJNP: ur beat disaster, lets turn the table to genesect [:
[03:23] @AM: yeah
[03:24] @AM: makes sense but like
[03:24] @Disaster Area: [03:19] @AM: most teambuilds can accomodate for general role compression while playing around nuisances through just solid playing
[03:24] @Disaster Area: [03:19] @AM: like all of heists teams so far in wcop
[03:24] @Disaster Area: [03:19] @AM: were mediocre at best if not bad
[03:24] @Disaster Area: basically you're saying that the better player can win a weaker matchup for them
[03:24] Amir Returns: I feel like dropping down Deoxys-S
[03:24] @AM: yes
[03:24] @Disaster Area: and a better teambuilder makes teams that have generally better matchups
[03:24] @AM: yes
[03:24] @AM: which is why they're paired up in tour play
[03:25] @Disaster Area: okay I agree with that
[03:25] @Disaster Area: okay so
[03:25] @Disaster Area: let's when discussing matchup hmm
[03:25] @AM: teambuilding is becoming more and more vital as the generations progress
[03:25] @Disaster Area: what happens if we assume that 2 players
[03:25] @Disaster Area: are of approximately equal skill
[03:25] @AM: cause you have people who specialize in studying those trends
[03:25] @NJNP: amir maybe d not s
[03:26] Amir Returns: S has decent bulk, and D is quite fast at base 90 speed
[03:26] @AM: it's still an approximation
[03:26] @Disaster Area: I think that you could actually
[03:26] @Disaster Area: use this as a way to describe
[03:26] @Disaster Area: what a 'good player' is
[03:26] @Disaster Area: is one who can beat another player in spite of having a 'losing' matchup
[03:26] @Disaster Area: and a player is more 'good'
[03:26] @Disaster Area: by the worse the matchup they can be victorious
[03:27] @Disaster Area: versus some objectively defined player if we wish to use a standard, or if not then we can compare players with eachother and say that
[03:27] @Disaster Area: one is better than the other
[03:27] @Disaster Area: because they can beat the other when they have such and such
[03:27] @Disaster Area: matchup disadvantage
[03:27] @AM: and the level at which a good player is perceived as good is not only subjective by the person you are asking but is also trying to find the fine level where other factors such as RNG weren't a factor. Good players are distinguised by consistentcy amongst the higher level plateau
[03:27] @AM: mcmeghan, bloo, hugo, etc.
[03:27] @Disaster Area: yeah
[03:27] @AM: for example
[03:27] @AM: I think
[03:27] @AM: bloody sunday is terrible
[03:27] @AM: some people think he's good
[03:28] @AM: cause he wins a lot of shitty matchups
[03:28] Amir Returns: true
[03:28] @AM: it's trying to justify an opinion as fact
[03:28] @AM: which obviously doesn't work
[03:28] @Disaster Area: winning a bad matchup is
[03:28] @Disaster Area: bizarrel
[03:28] @Disaster Area: a different skill to
[03:28] @Disaster Area: winning a good one
[03:28] @Disaster Area: lol
[03:28] @Disaster Area: yeah the whole concept of matchups is warped because players are warped
[03:29] @Disaster Area: i.e. a player can have betetr odds at winning a bad matchup than a good one
[03:29] @AM: too many players with too many different tiering philosophies and backgrounds
[03:29] @Disaster Area: versus a player of approximately equal skill
[03:30] @AM: this is where both teambuilding and battling skill come to play
[03:30] @Disaster Area: teambuilding = trying to give yourself the best possible matchup
[03:30] @Disaster Area: battling = trying to win with the matchup you and your opponent give eachother
[03:31] @AM: teambuilding is based on the study of the meta from a theoretical standpoint, battling is based on the study of the meta from a practical standpoint
[03:31] @AM: you need both
[03:31] @Disaster Area: yeah of course both are connected
[03:31] @Disaster Area: but I'm discussing w.r.t the matchup thing
[03:31] @AM: the point being is that matchup is alleviated when both are top notch
[03:31] @AM: this is why guys like ben gay and tesung
[03:31] @Disaster Area: no not totally
[03:31] @AM: have no real issues
[03:31] @Disaster Area: you still have bad matchups when you're a top player
[03:31] @Disaster Area: you're just better at winning in those bad matchups
[03:31] @Disaster Area: therefore you have fewer issues with them
[03:31] %gbhg: When you face a bad matchup
[03:32] %gbhg: You have to make more reads
[03:32] +ashes and dust~: i swear ur the best am
[03:32] @Disaster Area: so you're correct
[03:32] @Disaster Area: in saying ben gay and tesung have no real issues
[03:32] %gbhg: Then you normally would have to
[03:32] @Disaster Area: but it's not because
[03:32] @Disaster Area: matchup issues don't exist
[03:32] @AM: well it's not so much about reads but making the right read
[03:32] @Disaster Area: it's because they're skillful enough
[03:32] @AM: some people try to make reads and just fail
[03:32] @Disaster Area: to be able to win bad matchups
[03:32] Amir Returns: sometimes you need to think logically
[03:32] Amir Returns: when it's a great time to make a read
[03:32] @AM: well there's a stigma in that there's not enough people that can achieve that last point pie
[03:33] @AM: and as a result the argument of matchup is brought up
[03:33] @Disaster Area: okay so this explains exactly why
[03:33] Amir Returns: you need to factor of risk vs reward
[03:33] @Disaster Area: most of the community
[03:33] @Disaster Area: has matchup issues
[03:33] @Disaster Area: but most of the top players in charge
[03:33] @Disaster Area: do not
[03:33] @Disaster Area: so you have to ask yourself in what way do you need to cater to each
[03:33] @Disaster Area: with tournaments obviously
[03:33] @Disaster Area: you cater to the top players
[03:33] @Disaster Area: with banning pokemon etc
[03:33] @Disaster Area: you're catering to every competitive player who takes the game fairly seriously
[03:34] @Disaster Area: (e.g. not trying to win with a mono team etc)
[03:34] @Disaster Area: jpw's thread addresses
[03:34] @Disaster Area: how do you cater for top players
[03:34] @Disaster Area: over an issue top players don't currently need to recognise
[03:34] +obii: which thread?
[03:34] @Disaster Area: in policy review
[03:34] +obii: thanks
[03:34] @AM: you think ahead
[03:34] @AM: you make yourself aware of problems
[03:35] @AM: that are about to show its face
[03:35] +ashes and dust~: oml
[03:35] @AM: such as Landorus when it was gaining tons of usage in tour play
[03:35] +ashes and dust~: i was just about to reg
[03:35] +ashes and dust~: hermanos
[03:35] +ashes and dust~: pollos
[03:35] +ashes and dust~: cri
[03:35] Amir Returns: you need to also look at problems that may arise
[03:35] %LeoLancaster: chicken brothers?
[03:35] +ashes and dust~: yh
[03:35] +ashes and dust~: its a show
[03:35] %LeoLancaster: o
[03:35] @AM: We already knew it was going to be a problem, but SPL games just confirmed it
[03:35] +ashes and dust~: oml lando-i was everywhere
[03:35] +ashes and dust~: spl
[03:35] Amir Returns: thinking outside of the box does seem to help at times
[03:36] @AM: when on one night alone was the factor of 4 wins
[03:36] +ashes and dust~: like withdrawing alakazam
[03:36] +ashes and dust~: =]
[03:36] @AM: 3 of those by itself
[03:36] @Disaster Area: LOL slurmz nice
[03:36] @Disaster Area: cypher reference I see ya
[03:36] +ashes and dust~: =]
[03:37] @Disaster Area: okay but AM I'm talking more about
[03:37] @Disaster Area: matchup than specific pokemon here I guess
[03:37] +ashes and dust~: ok why did i almost go into ladder
[03:37] +ashes and dust~: with only a manaphy
[03:37] +ashes and dust~: ...
[03:37] @Disaster Area: top players don't recognise
[03:37] @Disaster Area: the same matchup issues
[03:37] @Disaster Area: as weaker players do
[03:37] @Disaster Area: it doesn't mean the matchup issues don't exist
[03:37] @AM: matchup is based on the preconceived notion that a pokemon and or group of them is the culprit of the issue
[03:37] @Disaster Area: it means the matchup issues don't exist anywhere near as much
[03:37] @Disaster Area: for the top players
[03:37] @Disaster Area: as it does for the weaker players
[03:38] @Disaster Area: no matchup doesn't nessecarily mean
[03:38] @Disaster Area: one thing is an issue
[03:38] @Disaster Area: or even 5 things
[03:38] @Disaster Area: you can have a complex matchup chart of
[03:38] @Disaster Area: 500 different OU teams
[03:38] @Disaster Area: and how they all matchup versus eachother
[03:38] @AM: no
[03:38] @Disaster Area: in the hands of players of certain shill
[03:38] @Disaster Area: (hypothetically)
[03:38] @Disaster Area: and when the players
[03:38] @Disaster Area: are better
[03:38] @Disaster Area: the numbers become
[03:38] @Disaster Area: more even
[03:38] @AM: 500 different OU teams don't equate to the archetypes they fall under
[03:38] @Disaster Area: that's all
[03:38] @AM: which is what you would actually prepare for
[03:38] @Disaster Area: okay if you want to go to archetypes then even still like what
[03:39] @Disaster Area: 50?
[03:39] @Disaster Area: I dunno depends on how broad vs specific you want to be
[03:39] @Disaster Area: matchups are then within a range of values depending on specific team tweaks
[03:39] @Disaster Area: but the overall picture still stands
[03:39] @AM: it would take too long to get into specifics but your teambuilding would accommodate these general archtypes
[03:39] @Disaster Area: yhea obviously
[03:39] @AM: most of these archtypes
[03:39] @Disaster Area: this is mostly hypothetical instead of specific
[03:40] @AM: are formulaic
[03:40] @Disaster Area: although I think
[03:40] @Disaster Area: LC did something sorta like that
[03:40] @Disaster Area: lol
[03:40] @Disaster Area: can't comment on the quality of it though or anything
[03:40] @AM: as such they follow a pattern not only that you have to build for but how you have to play against
[03:40] +ashes and dust~: i love lc
[03:40] +ashes and dust~: =]
[03:41] @Disaster Area: matchup exists but for top players in ORAS OU it's so negligible that for players of their skill level matchup issues do not exist
[03:41] @AM: there's gonna be matchups in regards to certain archetypes being annoyed by a certain threat but there shouldn't be an instance where you're flat out 6-0d by a Pokemon alone.
[03:41] @AM: that's just bad teambuilding
[03:41] @AM: 6-0s can realistically come from player ability
[03:42] @AM: that's understandable
[03:42] #PomMan: (cough mega mence)
[03:42] Amir Returns: ^
[03:42] +obii: ^
[03:42] @AM: you could actually build teams for m-mence that weren't 6-0d by it but they were all shitty against everything else
[03:42] @AM: to the point there was no room for anything else
[03:42] @AM: which isn't the case here
[03:42] #PomMan: My point was more
[03:42] +obii: anyone have examples of where a top player overcomes a bad match up?
[03:42] Amir Returns: AM, don't look at a threat alone, look at chain threats
[03:43] @Disaster Area: obii earlier we discussed
[03:43] #PomMan: In the instance of having one or more broken things in a tier
[03:43] @Disaster Area: heist's WCOP games
[03:43] @Disaster Area: as a case in point
[03:43] @AM: I never look at a threat by itself
[03:43] #PomMan: It can cause you to overcompensate for them
[03:43] @Disaster Area: have a look at some of those perhaps
[03:43] @AM: that's just dumb
[03:43] +obii: whats his showdown name?
[03:43] +obii: just heist?
[03:43] @AM: everything is associated with cores
[03:43] #PomMan: And leave you weaker to something like idk zardy
[03:43] @Disaster Area: babidi1998 / heist
[03:43] +obii: thanks
[03:44] +obii: is this one of the examples? http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-74714
[03:44] Amir Returns: if you have an Yveltal for example to take care of E-killer only or Mega Mence, it's gonna get weared down quite fast and can't be able to kill the second threat being the Mega Mence
[03:44] @Disaster Area: how could one describe a singular pokemon as broken if the issue is the cores in which it forms. Like say mega loppunny mega metagross and mega altaria are 'broken' when in a core with 2 specific but relatively less important pokemon say like lando-t or ferrothorn or azumarill or something
[03:45] @Disaster Area: what if it was actually lando-t that was in more 'broken cores' than
[03:45] @Disaster Area: any of the single megas
[03:45] @Disaster Area: (just an example I have no clue how accurate this is)
[03:45] @AM: deosharp is the most obvious example
[03:45] @AM: deo was the problem
[03:45] @Disaster Area: yeah
[03:45] #PomMan: Suspect Bisharp! :P
[03:45] @Disaster Area: what if it was a pokemon that's a glue mon that fits on tons of non-broken cores too
[03:45] #PomMan: clefable
[03:45] @AM: cause deos effect not only cascaded into deosharp it cascaded into the archtype of offense itself
[03:45] @Disaster Area: but it forms broken cores with multiple different pokemon
[03:45] @Disaster Area: ?
[03:46] @AM: aegislash
[03:46] @Disaster Area: that aren't broken themselves either
[03:46] @Disaster Area: except when in those cores perhaps
[03:46] @AM: aegislash + lopunny
[03:46] Amir Returns: I see Deoxys being able to be brought down to OU like we got two extra magic bounce users, couldn't that help?
[03:46] %LeoLancaster: disaster area that's the collateral that comes with all bans
[03:46] @Peli: loses to lopunny :D
[03:46] %LeoLancaster: like lesser sets on broken pokemon
[03:46] @Disaster Area: exactly
[03:46] @Disaster Area: leo
[03:46] @Disaster Area: take this
[03:46] @Disaster Area: what if there were 3 cores in OU that were broken
[03:47] Amir Returns: example
[03:47] @Disaster Area: m-alt | lando-t | clefable, m-meta | lando-t | keldeo, m-lopp | lando-t | ferrothorn
[03:47] @Disaster Area: for example
[03:47] @tennis: ew AM is in here
[03:47] @tennis: now i gotta leave
[03:47] @tennis: ugh
[03:47] @Disaster Area: let's say for example
[03:47] @AM: fuck you tennis
[03:47] @tennis: LOL
[03:47] @Disaster Area: m-alt is not broken
[03:47] @AM: n_n
[03:47] @Disaster Area: on any other core
[03:47] @Disaster Area: same with the other 5 mons not calle dlando
[03:47] @tennis: n_n
[03:47] @Disaster Area: and say lando is clearly not the one doing the sweeping or even particuarly major support duties etc
[03:47] @Disaster Area: maybe even playing different sets in each
[03:48] @Disaster Area: but forms cores with lots and lots of other mons in the tier too
[03:48] @Disaster Area: so basically it's a huge glue mon
[03:48] @Disaster Area: would you ban it? or would you ban
[03:48] @Disaster Area: m-alt and m-meta and stuff
[03:48] %LeoLancaster: hm
[03:48] @Disaster Area: Now what if
[03:48] @Disaster Area: it wasn't
[03:48] @Disaster Area: 3 cores
[03:48] @Disaster Area: but 50
[03:48] Amir Returns: oh god
[03:48] %LeoLancaster: if it was 50 cores like that
[03:48] @Disaster Area: varying in degrees of brokenness
[03:48] @Disaster Area: of size
[03:48] @Disaster Area: and with
[03:48] @Disaster Area: different pokemon in each
[03:48] @Disaster Area: but say lando is in
[03:48] @Disaster Area: 15 of them
[03:48] %LeoLancaster: I think it'd be pretty clear that lando-t is the problem
[03:48] %LeoLancaster: oh
[03:48] @AM: well lando-t isn't a problem
[03:48] @Disaster Area: and it's the one that's in the most
[03:48] @Disaster Area: AM I'm not saying it is
[03:48] @AM: to where it should be banned
[03:48] @Disaster Area: I'm just illustrating
[03:48] @Disaster Area: ideas
[03:49] @AM: I know
[03:49] #PomMan: As a bit better example
[03:49] @Disaster Area: then leo in this scenario
[03:49] @Disaster Area: what in hells name do you do
[03:49] @Peli: that veralis video was a joke
[03:49] @Peli: lol
[03:49] #PomMan: Pursuit support for stuff like keldeo in BW
[03:49] #PomMan: or for lando
[03:49] @AM: Keldeo isnt busted though
[03:49] Amir Returns: doesn't make them anymore of a threat
[03:49] @AM: even with pursuit support
[03:49] @AM: no
[03:49] #PomMan: In BW it was suspected a few times
[03:49] Amir Returns: just applies pressure
[03:49] @AM: Lando is way more extreme
[03:50] @Disaster Area: u know uhh
[03:50] Amir Returns: fairies kinda nerfed keldeo
[03:50] +Ransei: T?
[03:50] @Disaster Area: u know phil and bluekirby
[03:50] #PomMan: I meant if something broken would be held in check by shit tonnes of psychics
[03:50] @Disaster Area: made their sim that runs on permanent budgetmons etc
[03:50] #PomMan: But pursuit from ttar/bisharp made them too good
[03:50] @Disaster Area: pretty much
[03:50] @Disaster Area: I think that
[03:50] #PomMan: I cant think of a concrete example
[03:50] Amir Returns: giving us extra switchesm like mega alt, clefable
[03:50] @Disaster Area: that system of balancing can realistically
[03:50] @Disaster Area: work better than the current model but
[03:50] @Disaster Area: the cost of balance
[03:50] @Disaster Area: is ruleset complexity
[03:50] @AM: it's the cost of losing an enormous player base
[03:50] @Disaster Area: unless you're designing the pieces yourself of course :P but that's a CAP thing if anythin
[03:51] @AM: people are attracted to ORAS for its ability to be creative
[03:51] @Disaster Area: and because it's the flagship tier/current generation
[03:52] @AM: talking about
[03:52] @AM: people who enjoy oras more than xy
[03:52] @Disaster Area: ah
[03:53] %LeoLancaster: disaster area
[03:53] %LeoLancaster: about those cores
[03:53] +Ransei: If emerald was amazing
[03:53] %LeoLancaster: I can only think of two solutions
[03:53] @AM: someone wanted to talk about gene?
[03:53] +Ransei: oras should be too :^)
[03:53] @AM: not sure the topic
[03:53] @Disaster Area: okay let me hear them
[03:53] %LeoLancaster: 1) introduce a centralizing pokemon (like Aegi)
[03:53] @Disaster Area: NJNP wanted to discuss gene
[03:53] %LeoLancaster: 2) play a lower tier
[03:53] @NJNP: [:
[03:53] ashes and dust~: (Private to Disaster Area) [22:52:03] magsyy: ubers
[03:53] ashes and dust~: (Private to Disaster Area) [22:52:08] magsyy: is my meta
[03:53] @Disaster Area: (or higher tier)
[03:53] ashes and dust~: (Private to Disaster Area) [22:53:15] ashes and dust~: and ur still bad at it
[03:53] %LeoLancaster: and niether of those are optimal
[03:53] ashes and dust~: (Private to Disaster Area) [22:53:16] ashes and dust~: rof
[03:53] ashes and dust~: (Private to Disaster Area) LOOOOOOOOOOOL
[03:53] #PomMan: njnp has a genesect fetish
[03:54] #PomMan: ANd he wants it in OU
[03:54] @NJNP: genesect is bae.
[03:54] #PomMan: Basically
[03:54] +obii: we'll see how gene does in the battle of gods tourney
[03:54] @Disaster Area: basically leolancaster that's a scenario where
[03:54] @Disaster Area: too much diversity = bad
[03:54] %LeoLancaster: mhm
[03:54] @Disaster Area: i.e. the meta NJNP fears
[03:54] Amir Returns: I have a Deoxys-S fetish
[03:54] +obii: i dont think it should come down tho
[03:54] @Disaster Area: *jpw234
[03:54] @Disaster Area: brainfast
[03:54] +obii: thing is ridiculous
[03:54] @NJNP: lol
[03:54] @Disaster Area: *brainfary
[03:54] @Disaster Area: *brainfart
[03:54] @Disaster Area: sorry for hl rof
[03:54] Amir Returns: you know what the "S" stands for ;)
[03:54] Amir Returns: speed. ;)#
[03:54] %LeoLancaster: is it acceptable
[03:55] @Disaster Area: LeoLancaster
[03:55] %LeoLancaster: to have a pokemon which isn't broken per se
[03:55] @Disaster Area: now how about this
[03:55] @Disaster Area: how about
[03:55] @Disaster Area: the meta's like this
[03:55] %LeoLancaster: but appears on 90% of teams
[03:55] @Disaster Area: BUT
[03:55] @Disaster Area: the top players
[03:55] %LeoLancaster: aka a super glue mon
[03:55] @Disaster Area: are adapted well to it
[03:55] @Disaster Area: and the very top players
[03:55] #PomMan: !dt tyranitar

    OU Tyranitar RockDark Sand StreamUnnerveHP
    100 Atk
    134 Def
    110 SpA
    95 SpD
    100 Spe
    61 BST
    600

Dex#: 248 |  Gen: 2 |  Height: 2 m |  Weight: 202 kg (120 BP) |  Dex Colour: Green |  Egg Group(s): Monster |  Does Not Evolve
[03:55] @Disaster Area: don't perceieve matchup as an issue
[03:55] #PomMan: !dt heatran

    OU Heatran FireSteel Flash FireFlame BodyHP
    91 Atk
    90 Def
    106 SpA
    130 SpD
    106 Spe
    77 BST
    600

Dex#: 485 |  Gen: 4 |  Height: 1.7 m |  Weight: 430 kg (120 BP) |  Dex Colour: Brown |  Egg Group(s): Undiscovered |  Does Not Evolve
[03:55] #PomMan: !dt skarmory

    OU Skarmory SteelFlying Keen Eye
    SturdyWeak ArmorHP
    65 Atk
    80 Def
    140 SpA
    40 SpD
    70 Spe
    70 BST
    465

Dex#: 227 |  Gen: 2 |  Height: 1.7 m |  Weight: 50.5 kg (80 BP) |  Dex Colour: Gray |  Egg Group(s): Flying |  Does Not Evolve
[03:55] @Disaster Area: because they can 'play around it'
[03:55] @Disaster Area: should you deal with
[03:55] #PomMan: !dt blissey

    UU Blissey Normal Natural Cure
    Serene GraceHealerHP
    255 Atk
    10 Def
    10 SpA
    75 SpD
    135 Spe
    55 BST
    540

Dex#: 242 |  Gen: 2 |  Height: 1.5 m |  Weight: 46.8 kg (60 BP) |  Dex Colour: Pink |  Egg Group(s): Fairy |  Does Not Evolve
[03:55] @Disaster Area: the whims of the entire playerbase
[03:55] #PomMan: Gen three in particular
[03:55] @Disaster Area: who want to play competitively
[03:55] @Disaster Area: OR
[03:55] @Peli: fat
[03:55] %LeoLancaster: pomman those aren't getting 90% usage
[03:55] @Disaster Area: do you cater to the top players only
[03:55] %LeoLancaster: are they?
[03:56] Amir Returns: lol "gen three" uses "!dt heatran"
[03:56] #PomMan: Heatran got something very high (ie 45%) or so
[03:56] #PomMan: In gen4
[03:56] @Disaster Area: yeah
[03:56] @Disaster Area: what about
[03:56] @Disaster Area: lando-t in XY or something
[03:56] #PomMan: And no mon except snorlax
[03:56] @Disaster Area: ?
[03:56] +ashes and dust~: why does piex look like a potato
[03:56] %gbhg: um
[03:56] #PomMan: Has breached 90% since gsc
[03:56] %gbhg: those 4 mons
[03:56] %gbhg: have ALWAYS
[03:56] %gbhg: been ou
[03:56] %gbhg: until gen6
[03:56] %gbhg: for blissey
[03:56] @Disaster Area: so has gengar gbhg
[03:56] Amir Returns: mechanics might be the answer
[03:56] @Disaster Area: starmie too apart from XY I think
[03:57] #PomMan: So has keldeo
[03:57] %gbhg: yeh
[03:57] %gbhg: keldeo is new
[03:57] Amir Returns: explosion on heatran is one reason
[03:57] %gbhg: So it don't count
[03:57] #PomMan: I wasn
[03:57] #PomMan: 't saying
[03:57] #PomMan: That they were banworthy
[03:57] %gbhg: and keld was uu
[03:57] #PomMan: I was giving examples of mons that are everywhere
[03:57] %gbhg: beta x and y
[03:57] %gbhg: uu
[03:57] #PomMan: Dafuq?
[03:57] Amir Returns: really?
[03:57] %gbhg: And blissey isn't everywhere anymore
[03:57] %LeoLancaster: that was before they used weighted tiering stats
[03:57] %gbhg: Yes
[03:57] Amir Returns: i don't think it was
[03:57] @AM: lando-t in xy / early oras had like upwards of 50+%
[03:57] %LeoLancaster: Amir it was
[03:57] Amir Returns: o
[03:58] %LeoLancaster: then they upped the usage stats weighting
[03:58] %gbhg: No
[03:58] %gbhg: it moved up
[03:58] %gbhg: cause it was banned
[03:58] %LeoLancaster: n
[03:58] %LeoLancaster: keldeo wasn't ever BL
[03:58] Amir Returns: i can't remember tho
[03:58] %gbhg: orlly
[03:58] Amir Returns: i think it worked like Raikou
[03:58] %gbhg: yeh
[03:58] %LeoLancaster: it's not in the Uu tiering record
[03:58] %gbhg: It did
[03:58] Amir Returns: usage in OU really high, and it rose
[03:58] %gbhg: work like raik
[03:58] %gbhg: even w/o usage
[03:59] %gbhg: keld would be ou by now anyways
[03:59] %gbhg: It would have been banned
[03:59] %gbhg: eventually
[03:59] %LeoLancaster: maybe, maybe not
[03:59] %LeoLancaster: kokoloko (past uutl) ran a minitour recently
[03:59] +ashes and dust~: keldeo was uu in bw @ leo
[03:59] %LeoLancaster: where some OU pokemon were dropped into UU
[03:59] %LeoLancaster: for fun
[03:59] %LeoLancaster: and Keldeo was one of them