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The Great Prescription Skip Debate [Chap. 4 - Challenger]

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Sep 10th, 2012
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  1. The Great Prescription Skip Debate
  2. ----------------------------------------------------------------
  3. Chapter 1 - Discovery: http://pastebin.com/uxWcRhka
  4. Chapter 2 - It Begins: http://pastebin.com/wRsNmmhP
  5. Chapter 3 - Analysis: http://pastebin.com/iuStxa0J
  6. Chapter 4 - Challenger: http://pastebin.com/AuNF3GhC
  7. Chapter 5 - Ideas: http://pastebin.com/7SaRZAvA
  8. ----------------------------------------------------------------
  9. [21:51] <@Cosmo> im tryin to get poodleh ere
  10. [21:51] <@Cosmo> he is a "WR" holder on emu
  11. [21:51] <@jiano> pls
  12. [21:52] <@Cosmo> hi
  13. [21:52] <boris> getting poodle in here is also opening a can of worms
  14. [21:52] <@maxx> lol
  15. [21:52] <@Cosmo> whys that lol
  16. [21:52] <poodleskirt> hi
  17. [21:52] <+Kryssstal> snes gb player runs at like 62 fps or something crazy and the gamecube one runs gb at the gamecube framerate
  18. [21:52] <@maxx> nice 1 boris HE'S HERE
  19. [21:52] <lilkcough1> sup poodle?
  20. [21:52] <boris> lmao
  21. [21:52] <+Kryssstal> actual gameboy is like 57 fps? or something slow
  22. [21:52] <@Cosmo> anyway yea poodle we discussing leaderboards more seriously
  23. [21:52] <poodleskirt> cool
  24. [21:52] <@Cosmo> and about how N64 emulation isnt too accurate so its weird
  25. [21:52] <poodleskirt> ZSR leaderboards I suppose you mean
  26. [21:53] <@Cosmo> for now I guess yea zsr but maybe branching out later
  27. [21:53] <@Cosmo> one thing is like if runs should even be labeled as "WR" or not
  28. [21:53] <@Cosmo> another is if emu shoudl have separate table
  29. [21:53] <poodleskirt> it seems to me that the difference between VC and N64 is so big and they're both legal. I don't really understand what major differences people seem to think emulator has that should warrant it's being illegal
  30. [21:54] <@Cosmo> the thing that came up today with the N64 100% thing
  31. [21:54] <Jarvitz> well w/ new 100% not being able to be done on vc, emu has a clear advantage
  32. [21:54] <@Cosmo> 100% on VC is now dead if this trick doesnt work on VC
  33. [21:54] <+Runnerguy2489> if emu is separate, why not jp? it's the one that really separates two things more so in most cases than n64 vs vc
  34. [21:54] <+Kryssstal> I don't see what "official" matters when it comes to VC, like if it's a min faster on sm64 then that's the same thing as emu saving time
  35. [21:54] <poodleskirt> holy hell i called that if the trick was n64 exclusive it would be called cheating
  36. [21:54] <poodleskirt> how about we ban VC instead
  37. [21:55] <@jiano> official as in, everyone has the exact same emulator on the same console
  38. [21:55] <%RingRush> or just if you choose to play vc you eat the consequence like with all other version differences lol
  39. [21:55] <@jiano> pj64 can be on varying pcs, varying plugins, varying versions
  40. [21:55] <@Cosmo> the thing i wanted to say was
  41. [21:55] <@Cosmo> if 100% is only viable on N64, and ppl run it on emu which reduces lag, that is sort of scummy
  42. [21:55] <@jiano> ya what rr said
  43. [21:55] <@jiano> if n64 is faster than vc then GOOD IMO
  44. [21:55] <@Cosmo> Ithink if VC and GCN never existed then nobody would allow emu either cuase its faster
  45. [21:55] <@Cosmo> but cause VC shits on stuff
  46. [21:56] <@jiano> pj64 emulations is complete trash and shouldnt be taken seriously in any n64 gam
  47. [21:56] <@Cosmo> for the record: I don't care in the slightest if VC is obsolete for 100%, its fine if N64 is faster, im not mad in the slightest lol
  48. [21:56] <@Cosmo> im saying that
  49. [21:56] <@Cosmo> Emu is now broken for 100% then
  50. [21:56] <@Cosmo> cause lag reduction
  51. [21:57] <%RingRush> is there a feasible time estimate
  52. [21:57] <@maxx> i like that 100% is better on n64 haha
  53. [21:57] <@maxx> and i play vc all day
  54. [21:57] <@jiano> ya
  55. [21:57] <@Cosmo> another thing is
  56. [21:57] <poodleskirt> sure, i can't argue with that. I mean, obviously VC is faster load times than N64 on everything else
  57. [21:57] <@Cosmo> N64 is obsolete for any%
  58. [21:57] <@Cosmo> you cannot beat pydoyks on an N64
  59. [21:57] <poodleskirt> but we're saying that's not an issue because of other things like worse controls?
  60. [21:57] <@Cosmo> too much lag
  61. [21:57] <+Runnerguy2489> so ban everything but n64 !!!
  62. [21:57] <+Runnerguy2489> =)
  63. [21:57] <poodleskirt> right, pretty sure emu is in the same boat
  64. [21:57] <@maxx> i don't think controls have anything to do with any of this???
  65. [21:57] <poodleskirt> for any%
  66. [21:57] <%RingRush> everyone go import japanese n64s gogo
  67. [21:58] <@maxx> i have jp n64 1.0 RingRush lol
  68. [21:58] <%RingRush> why not apply a penalty to emulator runs
  69. [21:58] <%RingRush> approximately equal to the lag bonus
  70. [21:58] <@Cosmo> penalty is ugly
  71. [21:58] <@maxx> uhhhhhhhhhhh
  72. [21:58] <@jiano> because its inconsistent
  73. [21:58] <@maxx> that's awful
  74. [21:58] <@Cosmo> penalty is like arbitrary and hsitty
  75. [21:58] <poodleskirt> oh, if controls, etc. don't come into play when we're talking about it, then could the same argument be used to say VC should be banned from MST
  76. [21:58] <%RingRush> yeah, that is ugly
  77. [21:58] <@maxx> add time for savewarps like sda used to do
  78. [21:58] <@maxx> lol
  79. [21:59] <poodleskirt> since it's blatantly the fastest
  80. [21:59] <%RingRush> and if it is inconsistent it doesn't work
  81. [21:59] <@Cosmo> how so @ poodle
  82. [21:59] <@Cosmo> o i c
  83. [21:59] <+zodiac> the main issue with emu over vc is emu varies based on a ton of different things and also n64 emulation is really really bad
  84. [21:59] <Koobes> who's going to count their savewarps
  85. [22:00] <@jiano> ya everyones vc is the same
  86. [22:00] <@Cosmo> vc is an official release of the game
  87. [22:00] <poodleskirt> i highly disagree n64 emulation is really really bad
  88. [22:00] <poodleskirt> at least for OoT
  89. [22:00] <+zodiac> well youre objectively wrong
  90. [22:00] <+TestRunner> so like 4 cats: n64/GC/VC/emu?
  91. [22:00] <@Cosmo> so is iQue
  92. [22:00] <%RingRush> I mean theoretically for the leaderboards you can mandate some standardized emulator and version...but I think you're trying to break free from a "site record" thing and go towards a "world record" thing in which case that own't work
  93. [22:00] <@Cosmo> ique is an official release of OoT
  94. [22:00] <poodleskirt> i'm objectively wrong that something is "really really bad"?
  95. [22:00] <poodleskirt> lol
  96. [22:01] <+zodiac> yeah, the emulation is really really bad
  97. [22:01] <+zodiac> plahying on a real console and then on emu the difference is instantly apparent
  98. [22:01] <@Cosmo> yea RR but I dontk now if we can ever properly declare WR if we cant agree on stuff
  99. [22:01] <+zodiac> you can pause the game once and go "hang on this is nothing like console"
  100. [22:01] <@jiano> i just cant trust pj64 at all anymore cus of the sm64 thing removing all lag lol
  101. [22:01] <@Cosmo> i asked random ppl on twitter if emu is allowed or not for WRs and I got a huge mix response
  102. [22:01] <Enterim> lag penalties are impossible to calculate but the 59.97 v 60 fps penalty for emu should be easy and consistent
  103. [22:02] <%RingRush> well can we all agree that like..dolphin is banned for tww
  104. [22:02] <boris> if ur penalizing one thing but not another then what the hell
  105. [22:02] <+zodiac> penalties are dumb and awful
  106. [22:02] <+zodiac> imo
  107. [22:02] <@jiano> ya
  108. [22:03] <rog_> it's not a penalty, it's a correction, duh
  109. [22:03] <%RingRush> I wish the solution of "stop playing on emulator" worked for everyone
  110. [22:03] <poodleskirt> it just comes down to people not wanting emulator to become a "standard" the way VC has sort of become
  111. [22:03] <%RingRush> but I know that'll never happen
  112. [22:03] <Abahbob> ringrush, why ban emu for TWW?
  113. [22:03] <poodleskirt> and in my opinion, that's silly, since we're all playing the same game
  114. [22:03] <boris> ya emulator should not be standard
  115. [22:03] <Abahbob> just wondering
  116. [22:03] <+zodiac> i dont understand why emu people cant just buy the game they spend hundreds of hours playing
  117. [22:03] <%RingRush> dolphin doesn't even attempt to emulate load times or lag
  118. [22:03] <rog_> Abahbob: because you'd save like an hour on load times alone
  119. [22:03] <+zodiac> lol
  120. [22:03] <%RingRush> I know for metroid prime it is a ridiculous ammount of difference
  121. [22:04] <poodleskirt> mostly what i've heard here against emulator is that it's "objectively really really bad" lol
  122. [22:04] <Abahbob> lol i never even looked at the load times. I've just noticed that they are still longish
  123. [22:04] <+zodiac> that was one line i said
  124. [22:04] <+zodiac> and yes n64 emulation is nothing like the console
  125. [22:04] <+zodiac> it is bad at emulation
  126. [22:04] <poodleskirt> no it's not
  127. [22:04] <poodleskirt> they feel exactly the same to me
  128. [22:04] <Koobes> walk into bazaar
  129. [22:04] <Koobes> what happens
  130. [22:04] <+zodiac> well you havent played on console then
  131. [22:04] <+zodiac> you can pause the game one time
  132. [22:04] <+zodiac> and notice the difference
  133. [22:04] <%RingRush> poodleskirt if they feel the same to you then play on console and so we don't have to deal with this controversy
  134. [22:04] <%RingRush> lol
  135. [22:05] <Venick409> The thing is, if people can't run emu then 100% is going to get a huge drop in players. Even more so when the day comes people start playing it on J.
  136. [22:05] <Enterim> the game literally plays faster and it's mathematically simple to calculate, I'm not entirely convinced a 1.00050025x correction for emu times is a bad idea
  137. [22:05] <@Cosmo> this isnt about any 1 player
  138. [22:05] <+zodiac> it might be close enough to be playable but n64 emulation is just a punch of cobbled together hacks with no actual attempt at accuracy
  139. [22:05] <+Kryssstal> certain emus for consoles before n64 era seems fine without room for controversy at least, imo
  140. [22:06] <@jiano> ya
  141. [22:06] <+Kryssstal> mixed responses there would just come from lack of knowledge
  142. [22:06] <@jiano> snes9x and bsnes are fine
  143. [22:06] <Theworm826> ^
  144. [22:06] <%RingRush> so what is the check whether an emulator is good enough
  145. [22:06] <+Kryssstal> nes genesis gb probably have good stuff
  146. [22:06] <RME> 2D systems are much easier to do accurately
  147. [22:06] <%RingRush> if you can come up with some standardized test
  148. [22:06] <RME> and even they can get complicated
  149. [22:06] <%RingRush> then just apply that to any emulator
  150. [22:06] <+Kryssstal> if it's like same frames as console that's pretty good to me lol
  151. [22:06] <+Kryssstal> good luck w/ n64 emus being same lag emulation tho
  152. [22:07] <+Kryssstal> I don't even know what I'd do about VC if I ran n64 games
  153. [22:07] <+zodiac> yea n64 emus will never pass that test
  154. [22:07] <+Kryssstal> seems to be a game by game basis thing
  155. [22:07] <+zodiac> unless someone like bsnes guy sits down and actually tries to make something accurate
  156. [22:07] <+Kryssstal> like use n64 if you wanted to run sm64 and VC if you wanted to run oot? I don't know
  157. [22:07] <%RingRush> wait
  158. [22:07] <Enterim> So if we're allowing n64 emu, would restricting it to PJ64 1.7 be unreasonable?
  159. [22:08] <%RingRush> wasn't sm64 console verified?
  160. [22:08] <%RingRush> the tas
  161. [22:08] <Venick409> If you don't run MM/OoT on VC (other then OoT 100% now) You just lose a bunch of time.
  162. [22:08] <@jiano> krystal majority of english speaking sm64 players use vc and emu
  163. [22:08] <Enterim> the N64bot that console verifies has it wait on lag frames
  164. [22:08] <%RingRush> really?
  165. [22:08] <Toufool31> Jiano yea, lots are switching to N64
  166. [22:09] <rog_> it doesn't wait on lag frames
  167. [22:09] <%RingRush> wow that is silly to call it console verified then
  168. [22:09] <rog_> the controller just isn't polled, so it doesn't send anything
  169. [22:09] <@jiano> idk why ppl are switching to n64 lol
  170. [22:09] <@jiano> literally no point
  171. [22:09] <+Kryssstal> yea but if you get a better time than sig on vc then no one would care like you said
  172. [22:09] <Enterim> that
  173. [22:09] <Toufool31> their choice lol
  174. [22:09] <%mzxrules> lol
  175. [22:09] <Abahbob> i still want a GCbot
  176. [22:09] <@jiano> what if someone got like 3 mins faster than sig on vc
  177. [22:09] <@jiano> that would be confusing
  178. [22:09] <+Kryssstal> it's just like each game is its own community-defined thing and there's no way to generalize "speedruns"
  179. [22:09] <Toufool31> thats possible but
  180. [22:09] <+zodiac> if they were 3 mins faster i think that would get respect
  181. [22:09] <Toufool31> since sig is so fucking good
  182. [22:09] <Toufool31> its really unlikely
  183. [22:09] <+zodiac> hard situation but no ones going to question their skill
  184. [22:10] <@jiano> but what do u consider the real record
  185. [22:10] <Toufool31> yea it would be confusing
  186. [22:10] <@Cosmo> 1:41 VC or 1:44 N64
  187. [22:10] <@Cosmo> which is WR
  188. [22:10] <+Kryssstal> whichever one is faster after adjusting? I assume someone would be bored enough to check
  189. [22:10] <Toufool31> all i know is that JP would totally not count it
  190. [22:10] <+zodiac> 1:41 vc would be WR
  191. [22:10] <Toufool31> there is no way to adjust in sm64
  192. [22:10] <@jiano> u cant adjust because super inconsistent
  193. [22:10] <@Cosmo> cant do adjustment because there are lag reduction strategies
  194. [22:10] <+zodiac> id say shortest time is always going to be wr
  195. [22:10] <+zodiac> even if you respect one run as being better with a slower time
  196. [22:10] <@jiano> ya if vc is "allowed" then it should always be fastest time
  197. [22:11] <@Cosmo> one cool thing about VC
  198. [22:11] <Toufool31> if a VC time would beat sig
  199. [22:11] <%mzxrules> grr
  200. [22:11] <+Kryssstal> hard to say, dang vc
  201. [22:11] <Toufool31> it would be considered WR
  202. [22:11] <@jiano> n64 being standard for sm64 makes no sense esp since every other game vc is standard
  203. [22:11] <Toufool31> but just not to the japanese
  204. [22:11] <@Cosmo> its standardized and its more readily available than N64
  205. [22:11] <%RingRush> yeah but zodiac that doesn't apply to emulators really
  206. [22:11] <poodleskirt> sry i looked away are we still talking about oot
  207. [22:11] <%mzxrules> so with King Zora Collection Delay, I keep getting a grab icon whenever I pull hookshot
  208. [22:11] <%RingRush> there is a glitch in dk64 that is only possible on project and mupen, not on actual consoles
  209. [22:12] <%RingRush> and you wouldn't a run using that the wr would you
  210. [22:12] <%RingRush> so there has to be some place you draw the line
  211. [22:12] <@jiano> i dont think anyone would consider dk64 on emu
  212. [22:12] <@jiano> or castlvania64 or bk or most n64 games
  213. [22:12] <Toufool31> but with sm64 everyone started to not care what version you played
  214. [22:12] <Toufool31> u play n64 u go slower ur choice lol
  215. [22:12] <@jiano> oot and sm64 just happen to be decently emulated
  216. [22:13] <%mzxrules> oot emulated on what
  217. [22:13] <Toufool31> oot seems pretty complicated tho :/
  218. [22:13] <@jiano> on pj64
  219. [22:13] <RME> popular games get more internal hacks to work 'right'
  220. [22:13] <%mzxrules> i can't see grottos on pj64
  221. [22:13] <Jarvitz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_3Jt0vR5Lw changed it to youtube. just for future reference
  222. [22:14] <%mzxrules> and other generally flat textures like paths
  223. [22:14] <@jiano> i said decent
  224. [22:14] <@jiano> not good lol
  225. [22:14] <%RingRush> visual errors aren't that big of a deal
  226. [22:14] <%RingRush> its more of lag errors or especially physics errors (which I don't think there are any documented for oot)
  227. [22:14] <icanspoil> does this new oot glitch only work on VC/emulator or something? i missed the beginning of this discussion
  228. [22:14] <Chabo> mzxrules what's your graphics chip?
  229. [22:14] <boris> it only works on n64
  230. [22:14] <%mzxrules> intel
  231. [22:14] <boris> 1.0/1.1
  232. [22:14] <icanspoil> ahh, okay
  233. [22:14] <Chabo> That's an intel thing
  234. [22:15] <icanspoil> so that's why they are talking about separating it into 2 categories, gotcha
  235. [22:15] <%mzxrules> no it's a "We're a closed dev deal" thing with pj64 imo
  236. [22:15] <@Cosmo> ive been discussing this with people for more than a week
  237. [22:15] <@Cosmo> this new trick is just a good example
  238. [22:15] <%RingRush> is there a filter by console section
  239. [22:15] <boris> so we're thinking doing 100% runs on emu provides a lag advantage that can no longer be matched with vc (an official version)
  240. [22:15] <%RingRush> like...just let people come to their own conclusions
  241. [22:15] <@jiano> i tyhink thats a bad thing though rr
  242. [22:15] <+zodiac> you have to have some kind of rules on runs
  243. [22:15] <@jiano> it starts to make the leaderboard meaningless
  244. [22:15] <qwerty1605> ^
  245. [22:16] <%RingRush> you're right
  246. [22:16] <+zodiac> and if you dont have rules and people come to different conclusions then when a run happens on certain versions people will get all annoyed about it
  247. [22:16] <%RingRush> but say we ban emulators, and poodle gets the obvious best time even without lag bonuses
  248. [22:16] <%RingRush> and we say it isn't the wr....that is kind of meaningless too
  249. [22:16] <+zodiac> yea its a really hard situation
  250. [22:16] <@jiano> as long as the community of a game agrees on a standard
  251. [22:16] <@jiano> i think its fine
  252. [22:17] <@jiano> if 99% of oot players say emu is stupid then
  253. [22:17] <@jiano> well there you go
  254. [22:17] <ChocoPoptart> So why does 1.0 and 1.1 VC inject have to be banned?
  255. [22:17] <+Runnerguy2489> 99% don't though
  256. [22:17] <@jiano> i know im just saying
  257. [22:17] <boris> because 1.0 and 1.1 are only officially released on n64
  258. [22:17] <DLH> inject is banned for exclusive combined 1.0 and VC only things
  259. [22:17] <boris> stick on b on vc + 1.0 advantages
  260. [22:17] <+Runnerguy2489> yeah community dictates is fine
  261. [22:17] <+Runnerguy2489> oot is just super spread apart
  262. [22:17] <@jiano> i just dont think emulator should ever ever be the preferred version
  263. [22:17] <@Cosmo> VC 1.0 banned by combining advantages from two different official versions
  264. [22:17] <%RingRush> if we do allow emulators we definitely have to specify approval
  265. [22:18] <poodleskirt> VC is an emulator and it has become preferred preffered whatever
  266. [22:18] <+zodiac> yea there has to be a certain version you run on
  267. [22:18] <+zodiac> for sure
  268. [22:18] <%RingRush> there are notoriously bad emulators out there, maybe not for n64 but other consoles
  269. [22:18] <@jiano> vc is an emulator created by the same ppl who made the n64
  270. [22:18] <poodleskirt> the differences between VC and all other versions is much greater than difference between emu and n64
  271. [22:18] <@Cosmo> vc is an official standardized release so I dont think yo ucan ban it really under any circumstance
  272. [22:18] <@Cosmo> you could only separate it
  273. [22:18] <@Cosmo> like N64 and VC charts
  274. [22:18] <DLH> imo inject should be allowed for 100% and just leave everything else the way it is
  275. [22:19] <@jiano> vc is also consistent across all wiis, not the case for pj64
  276. [22:19] <Enterim> it's a tricky balance between making times accurate and meaningful and not becoming so exclusionary to versions/categories that you become SDA or TG
  277. [22:19] <poodleskirt> all of these ideas seem pretty arbitrary lol
  278. [22:19] <@jiano> it has to be
  279. [22:19] <poodleskirt> i agree enterim
  280. [22:19] <+zodiac> yea its a really dumb and arbitrary thing but it has to be
  281. [22:19] <@jiano> theres no way it wont be arbitrary
  282. [22:19] <+Runnerguy2489> vc consistent across all wiis? wasn't zfg's loading time in consideration at one point?
  283. [22:19] <@Cosmo> was it? remind me
  284. [22:19] <+zodiac> did zfg overclopck his wii or something lol
  285. [22:19] <@jiano> never heard of it
  286. [22:19] <%RingRush> loading time hacks
  287. [22:19] <Enterim> The only way for it not to be arbitrary is to email Nintendo
  288. [22:19] <poodleskirt> i'm sort of surprised this came up before there ever existed 2 runs that were so close on separate versions that one would have beat the other if it were on the other version
  289. [22:19] <boris> i thought it was cause some1 dropped their wii
  290. [22:19] <boris> and it lagged
  291. [22:19] <boris> lol
  292. [22:19] <Enterim> Kazooie over clocked his N64
  293. [22:20] <boris> LMAO
  294. [22:20] <+zodiac> kazooie also played on pal
  295. [22:20] <@jiano> no one really used emulators before the last year or so because sda being the standard and bans emu
  296. [22:20] <@Cosmo> well nobody evr stepped up and tried to figure this out
  297. [22:20] <@Cosmo> yea
  298. [22:20] <Enterim> Kazooie tried to make his PAL N64 play at 60Hz and ended up at like 63 or something
  299. [22:21] <%RingRush> people definitely had runs on emulators
  300. [22:21] <@Cosmo> poodle I know u like leaderboard idea but how would you personally have it done?
  301. [22:21] <%RingRush> but people ignored them
  302. [22:21] <@Cosmo> what about playing on nero64 or w/e the hell
  303. [22:21] <@Cosmo> weird shitty emus
  304. [22:21] <%RingRush> or else they were like...Wak was it?
  305. [22:21] <RME> digging them up
  306. [22:21] <%RingRush> that was a funny topic
  307. [22:21] <RME> play on corn
  308. [22:21] <@jiano> wak lol
  309. [22:21] <Enterim> limit it to certain emus I guess
  310. [22:22] <Enterim> like PJ64 1.7 only
  311. [22:22] <GUIpsp> why
  312. [22:22] <+zodiac> because other emus are worse
  313. [22:22] <Enterim> as it's the most accurate afaik
  314. [22:22] <GUIpsp> shitty emus will slow the player down
  315. [22:22] <Chabo> This isn't the best example but MM crashes on 1.7
  316. [22:22] <GUIpsp> not speed him up
  317. [22:22] <%RingRush> is 1.7 more accurate than 1.6?
  318. [22:22] <poodleskirt> yeah, i would have let people post their times
  319. [22:22] <Enterim> I would think so...
  320. [22:22] <%RingRush> I know BT for example works on 1.6 but not 1.7
  321. [22:22] <RME> 1.6 is at least open source lol
  322. [22:22] <Enterim> mupen64+ then?
  323. [22:22] <@Cosmo> zsnes has no lag so you could get some sick alttp time on it I think
  324. [22:22] <GUIpsp> let them be shitty if they want
  325. [22:22] <RME> mupen64plus is at least active though
  326. [22:22] <poodleskirt> and if their were complaints about legitimacy they would have been dealt with on a case by case bases I think
  327. [22:23] <RME> and it's cross platform
  328. [22:23] <RME> so that's a plus
  329. [22:23] <+zodiac> doesnt mupen64 still have the pause lag
  330. [22:23] <%RingRush> cosmo just tweet asking for a new n64 emulator
  331. [22:23] <@Cosmo> GUIpsp you could run on a fast emu like zsnes
  332. [22:23] <%RingRush> you have enough followers
  333. [22:23] <Enterim> Though it is community-driven, so it's not unreasonable to specify what emulators are OK for each game
  334. [22:23] <%RingRush> maybe one will do it
  335. [22:23] <+zodiac> unless you enable that one setting that makes it tank on certain computers
  336. [22:23] <poodleskirt> having a rift in the community about the platforms we play on is extremely silly considering that there's never been any 2 runs on separate platforms close enough for it to actually matter
  337. [22:23] <+Kryssstal> Cosmo: it'd save like 40-50 seconds maybe @ zsnes
  338. [22:24] <+zodiac> itd save a lot more time than that on non-wr quality runs though right?
  339. [22:24] <+Kryssstal> idk lol
  340. [22:24] <@jiano> it happened in sm64 though
  341. [22:24] <@Cosmo> if we just let it rock then nobody even knows what the best time is
  342. [22:24] <@jiano> sig beat erumos time i believe on vc right ?
  343. [22:24] <@jiano> or 70
  344. [22:24] <@jiano> one or the other
  345. [22:24] <@Cosmo> VC 1:41 vs N64 1:44
  346. [22:24] <@Cosmo> yea jiano
  347. [22:24] <@Cosmo> tht kind of stuff
  348. [22:24] <+zodiac> sig got 70 wr on vc
  349. [22:25] <r0bd0g> I see beedle at endless night, though maybe he's only there if you get the despair screen idk
  350. [22:25] <ChocoPoptart> So really most of the people that are being affected by this would the ones with or close to WR
  351. [22:25] <poodleskirt> then what happened?
  352. [22:25] <@jiano> no1 knew what the real best time was
  353. [22:25] <poodleskirt> people are going to think what they think is legit regardless of what anyone says
  354. [22:25] <@jiano> and sig switched to jp so he could compare times
  355. [22:25] <@Cosmo> its basically anti-competitive
  356. [22:25] <%RingRush> splitting charts is anticompetitive too
  357. [22:25] <+zodiac> yea poodle but if theres rules at least we can tell them to shut up
  358. [22:25] <%RingRush> since it removes half the competition
  359. [22:25] <ChocoPoptart> I just think that the definition of World Record should be more specific
  360. [22:25] <poodleskirt> well, everyone knew what they real best time was
  361. [22:25] <@Cosmo> yes RR
  362. [22:25] <poodleskirt> it was the one that had less time on the clock at the end of the run
  363. [22:26] <GUIpsp> Cosmo, faster then console emus should be banned
  364. [22:26] <poodleskirt> why that didn't translate to "everyone switch to VC" like it did for OOT baffles me
  365. [22:26] <+Kryssstal> if your run isn't hosted on the SDA then why care about it
  366. [22:26] <poodleskirt> but there it is
  367. [22:26] <GUIpsp> and only those
  368. [22:26] <Enterim> SDA does shit like rejecting RaikerZ's PM 100% because it was encoded in wmv
  369. [22:26] <+zodiac> because jp people are weird
  370. [22:26] <+zodiac> is the answer to that
  371. [22:26] <GUIpsp> the same way speedup is banned
  372. [22:26] <+Kryssstal> I'd reject something encoded in wmv too lollll
  373. [22:26] <@jiano> yeah i still have no idea why sm64 pppl didnt go to vc lol
  374. [22:26] <+Kryssstal> on any website
  375. [22:26] <@jiano> why would u ever use wmvc lmao
  376. [22:26] <Enterim> I don't know
  377. [22:27] <Enterim> but the quality was still very watchable if in a stupid codec
  378. [22:27] <+zodiac> if u use wmv you prob dont deserve your record js...
  379. [22:27] <@jiano> but yeah w/e @ sda
  380. [22:27] <@jiano> let them do what they want
  381. [22:27] <Enterim> It was on YT at least
  382. [22:27] <poodleskirt> but yeah... i don't think using a shitty emulator will be an issue on leaderboards since that in no way translates to better times... and no one would want to play on those anyway
  383. [22:27] <+zodiac> i bet jp dudes wuold have switched to vc if sig stuck with vc
  384. [22:27] <+zodiac> sometimes shitty emulator does mean better times though
  385. [22:28] <+zodiac> like jiano said theres some plugin that eliminates all lag in sm64
  386. [22:28] <@jiano> shitty emulator = no lag
  387. [22:28] <+zodiac> but the emulation is worse
  388. [22:28] <%RingRush> tbh it is up to japanese players to switch to the faster version, not english players to use the same slower ersion
  389. [22:28] <+zodiac> itd be dumb to allow that
  390. [22:28] <@Cosmo> yea rr
  391. [22:28] <+zodiac> agreed RR
  392. [22:28] <+zodiac> sig wanted to compare with them though and they werent going to switch
  393. [22:29] <@Cosmo> i feel like OoT is just not a competitive game cause of how spread apart it is
  394. [22:29] <@Cosmo> so manycategories, versions
  395. [22:29] <@Cosmo> its dumb
  396. [22:29] <poodleskirt> i disagree
  397. [22:29] <poodleskirt> we're acting like the versions are sooooo different
  398. [22:29] <poodleskirt> when they're really not. this new trick is an exception
  399. [22:29] <Enterim> OoT has to be that way because no one likes any% anymore
  400. [22:29] <poodleskirt> but yeah the categories are arbitrary, i agree
  401. [22:29] <@maxx> Cosmo: agreed
  402. [22:29] <Enterim> OoT has something for everybody
  403. [22:30] <@maxx> of course the categories are arbitrary lol
  404. [22:30] <%RingRush> ban child dungeons
  405. [22:30] <boris> ban child dungeons
  406. [22:30] <@jiano> how to be competitive in oot = race
  407. [22:30] <@maxx> every category for every game that isn't "any%"
  408. [22:30] <+zodiac> agreed with ringrush
  409. [22:30] <@maxx> is arbitrary
  410. [22:30] <poodleskirt> #banchilddungeons
  411. [22:30] <Kosmicd12> +1 Jiano
  412. [22:30] <%mzxrules> =O
  413. [22:30] <%mzxrules> =OOOOOOOOO
  414. [22:30] <%mzxrules> collection collection delay
  415. [22:30] <rog_> ban CD, and allow all bottles
  416. [22:30] <@Cosmo> if we make srl leaderboards we should ban all categories that dont beat the game
  417. [22:30] <@Cosmo> lolo
  418. [22:30] <poodleskirt> speedrunning as a hobby is arbitrary
  419. [22:30] <boris> maxx thats why i think alttp's 3 minute run should be tracked
  420. [22:30] <@maxx> it is
  421. [22:30] <boris> even tho it is shit category
  422. [22:30] <%RingRush> I agree @ cosmo
  423. [22:30] <@maxx> on zsr
  424. [22:30] <@Cosmo> yes poodle, it is, but mayb if we could all agree on what WR means then it could be more serious lol
  425. [22:31] <@Cosmo> 11k people watching sig getting WR, clearly people care if its actually competitive
  426. [22:31] <%RingRush> I'm fine with like, different endings
  427. [22:31] <boris> people were saying before that it shouldnt be tracked
  428. [22:31] <@jiano> ity is tracked even though no1 in the world cares about it
  429. [22:31] <%RingRush> but if it isn't an ending it isn't a category
  430. [22:31] <%RingRush> it is a race goal
  431. [22:31] <@maxx> boris: http://zeldaspeedruns.com/leaderboards/alttp/glitched
  432. [22:31] <boris> i know
  433. [22:31] <@maxx> o ok
  434. [22:31] <boris> im saying people were saying earlier
  435. [22:31] <boris> that it shouldnt be tracked
  436. [22:31] <@jiano> ya if it doesnt beat game its a race goal agreed
  437. [22:31] <boris> and i disagree
  438. [22:32] <+Kryssstal> nico lists stuff like master sword at least
  439. [22:32] <+zodiac> race goals can be super competitive though
  440. [22:32] <rog_> you guys just don't want to recognize all bottles as a legit category
  441. [22:32] <+zodiac> its fun to track
  442. [22:32] <poodleskirt> i say we abandon the whole attachment to "wr". there's leaderboards that have spots, and you have the best time if you're number 1. adding some title to it beyond that seems pointless and almost pretentious imo
  443. [22:32] <boris> people will never stop asking
  444. [22:32] <boris> "whats the wr"
  445. [22:32] <%mzxrules> guys, is this known...
  446. [22:32] <@Cosmo> that might be right @ poodle but thats also true @ boris
  447. [22:32] <Koobes> I'm #1 on the leaderboards, and I have the WR sounds different to other people
  448. [22:32] <%RingRush> "World Record" is the single greatest advertising thing
  449. [22:32] <%RingRush> speedrunning has
  450. [22:32] <+zodiac> yea
  451. [22:32] <+zodiac> u gotta keep world record how else are you going to get viewers
  452. [22:32] <%mzxrules> If you perform collection delay, and you jump off a ledge and have a bomb explode in your hand
  453. [22:33] <+zodiac> FREE IPAD only works for so long
  454. [22:33] <%RingRush> it gives it some kind of meaning to people not in the community
  455. [22:33] <%mzxrules> you get like permanent collection delay with king zora
  456. [22:33] <Kosmicd12> :o
  457. [22:33] <Kosmicd12> you can't even talk to him?
  458. [22:33] <%mzxrules> no uh
  459. [22:33] <boris> honestly, there is something about having a time that hasn't been beaten
  460. [22:33] <+Kryssstal> who has the state fair blue ribbon
  461. [22:33] <%RingRush> which state
  462. [22:33] <%mzxrules> if you throw a bomb / talk to him
  463. [22:33] <+Kryssstal> idaho idk
  464. [22:33] <%mzxrules> you get the item
  465. [22:33] <Kosmicd12> lol
  466. [22:34] <+zodiac> how do you even do collection delay in oot
  467. [22:34] <Mr_Carter> how far away can you go from him and still get the item
  468. [22:34] <+zodiac> i have never done it
  469. [22:34] <Kosmicd12> mash a button
  470. [22:34] <%mzxrules> as long as you're facing him
  471. [22:34] <@maxx> if you have ever ever ever tried to talk about speedrunning to someone not familiar with the community they ALWAYS ask about the WR, and they always mean any%, and they always have no idea what "any%" means
  472. [22:34] <%mzxrules> you can pretty much get it
  473. [22:34] <Mr_Carter> so as long as he is loaded?
  474. [22:34] <DLH> you can't just abandon calling something the WR. somebody will have the best time, and the same interests of having/getting the WR will still apply
  475. [22:34] <%mzxrules> more or less
  476. [22:34] <@jiano> any% is a shitty name that will live forever
  477. [22:34] <%RingRush> ^
  478. [22:34] <boris> ^ :(
  479. [22:35] <@Cosmo> i noticd for some sda pages
  480. [22:35] <%RingRush> no use trying to change it, lets just realize it h as the same standing as "HESS"
  481. [22:35] <@Cosmo> the use the term
  482. [22:35] <@Cosmo> "Best time"
  483. [22:35] <@Cosmo> which seems pretty good
  484. [22:35] <boris> yeah but
  485. [22:35] <@jiano> yeah wr exists, its just a matter of what is the true wr
  486. [22:35] <@Cosmo> yea jiano
  487. [22:35] <boris> its hard to say that as a category name, idk
  488. [22:35] <%mzxrules> i prefer "Fastest Route"
  489. [22:35] <poodleskirt> i think we should totally disregard the whole "wr" thing and focus on rules for the leaderboards, because that's what's important
  490. [22:35] <%RingRush> but please stop using the word "glitched" for faster than any%
  491. [22:35] <%RingRush> ugh that bugs me
  492. [22:35] <boris> agreed RingRush
  493. [22:35] <+zodiac> well unless some kid is in a cave playing oot somewhere then theres going to be a world record
  494. [22:35] <+Kryssstal> best time on SDA means segmented
  495. [22:35] <+Kryssstal> and if you like segmented runs you are dumMmmM
  496. [22:35] <@Cosmo> LOL
  497. [22:35] <@Cosmo> segmented heh ehehehhe
  498. [22:35] <@Cosmo> anyway
  499. [22:35] <boris> i hate explaining to ppl
  500. [22:35] <@Cosmo> I think we should figure out
  501. [22:35] <boris> that any% is not fastest alttp category
  502. [22:35] <boris> haha
  503. [22:35] <@Cosmo> if "WR" is a label we want to give out to runs
  504. [22:35] <boris> but like
  505. [22:35] <boris> "category"
  506. [22:35] <@Cosmo> or just not do that
  507. [22:35] <boris> idk
  508. [22:35] <Enterim> pydoyks was practically playing in a cave
  509. [22:36] <+zodiac> a cave with internet and streaming though
  510. [22:36] <%RingRush> No Major Skips/No Major Glitches/ whatever youw ant to call it and any% is better than any% and glitched
  511. [22:36] <@maxx> i am strongly opposed to the removal of the "wr" label
  512. [22:36] <dunham> ^^
  513. [22:36] <@maxx> it is the most important thing by a lot to new people / casual viewers
  514. [22:36] <@jiano> ppl are just throwing WR onto everything these days
  515. [22:36] <Kosmicd12> thx maxx
  516. [22:36] <Mr_Carter> agreed @ maxx
  517. [22:36] <@jiano> so its silly
  518. [22:36] <poodleskirt> obviously when ppl ask what WR is they're asking about #1 on the leaderboards.
  519. [22:36] <poodleskirt> asking "but should #1 on the leaderboards not be what is referred to as 'wr' by people outside the community? or are our rules too arbitrary and forgiving?" is... idk it shouldn't be part of the discussion imo. it's unimportant.
  520. [22:36] <@maxx> and de-emphasising that makes it less approachable
  521. [22:36] <%RingRush> Guys I got a 8:55 in get key 1 and free diddy [wr]
  522. [22:37] <Kosmicd12> what if there isnt a leaderboard
  523. [22:37] <Kosmicd12> is there no wr
  524. [22:37] <boris> RingRush thats a race category, and we just discussed race cateogires :P
  525. [22:37] <@Cosmo> thats a good point maxx
  526. [22:37] <@maxx> i am not sure we are debating the same thing poodleskirt
  527. [22:37] <cfox77> ringrush you so good
  528. [22:37] <qwerty1605> according to srl I have the free all kongs world record for dk64
  529. [22:37] <@jiano> the question poddleskirt is, is it the "emulator wr" or the "n64 wr" or "jp n64 wr" or what
  530. [22:37] <poodleskirt> maybe not...
  531. [22:37] <+Kryssstal> wr just means "best known time to our knowledge" but the problem is that people throw it around without having enough knowledge
  532. [22:37] <@maxx> i do not think that there should be things at the top of the leaderboards that are not "wr"
  533. [22:37] <poodleskirt> oh lol
  534. [22:37] <+Kryssstal> see 5000 videos on youtube saying (WR) even though they aren't
  535. [22:37] <@maxx> i think if the community decides something is "not legit" (emu or inject vc or whatever)
  536. [22:38] <cfox77> i have 8 key wr so good
  537. [22:38] <@maxx> that it should not be on the leaderboard at all
  538. [22:38] <+zodiac> oot wr in 1:06 by pokey
  539. [22:38] <%RingRush> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KAC4hlByTg
  540. [22:38] <+zodiac> my fave video
  541. [22:38] <boris> there are also vids on youtube that say WR that are just outdated wrs
  542. [22:38] <%RingRush> comments lol
  543. [22:38] <@Cosmo> ok kryssstal but if we had it standardized and we got reputable and a lot of ppl would update it then I guess we could get away with it ?
  544. [22:38] <boris> i believe ZFG's oot run is one of those
  545. [22:38] <@maxx> #1 leaderboard time should def always be "wr"
  546. [22:38] <+Kryssstal> cosmo is walter day!!!
  547. [22:38] <%RingRush> some dude claims wr and like every other comment is posting a faster time
  548. [22:38] <boris> hahaha
  549. [22:38] <@Cosmo> lol
  550. [22:38] <boris> cosmo day walter
  551. [22:38] <boris> cdw
  552. [22:39] <cfox77> lol
  553. [22:39] <dunham> almodst my initials :p
  554. [22:39] <Kosmicd12> i remember a guy on yt named JReflex or something and he would speedrun mario levels and put WR on every video out of assumption
  555. [22:39] <@Cosmo> so kryssstal and poodle are opposed to the term WR then
  556. [22:39] <+Kryssstal> idc that much lol
  557. [22:39] <+Kryssstal> at all
  558. [22:39] <+zodiac> i think its more they dont care
  559. [22:39] <+Kryssstal> so don't worry about it
  560. [22:39] <poodleskirt> i think separating WRs into platforms would be a little silly and wouldn't catch on too well
  561. [22:39] <Koobes> honestly, with youtube
  562. [22:39] <Koobes> if it has Shit quality, its not WR
  563. [22:40] <%RingRush> n64 wr and vc wr just sounds terrible lol
  564. [22:40] <Kosmicd12> sm3dl :(
  565. [22:40] <poodleskirt> but yeah, like kryssstal says, as far as the term WR itself goes i could care less
  566. [22:40] <boris> what do you mean shit quality
  567. [22:40] <Koobes> most videos of WR have good quality
  568. [22:40] <+Kryssstal> when someone asks what a "wr" is, I think they should just be directed to the best known, reputable run
  569. [22:40] <@maxx> i think "wr" is so important that i put a section called "world records" on the new zsr homepage
  570. [22:40] <@maxx> that shows the fastest times from the leaderboards
  571. [22:40] <@maxx> for each game
  572. [22:40] <Koobes> lmao
  573. [22:40] <@jiano> heres a fun one: tww english, japanese, with tuner, without tuner
  574. [22:40] <Kosmicd12> sm3dl quality :(
  575. [22:40] <%RingRush> though I also think like "no tuner"
  576. [22:40] <%RingRush> is the dumbest
  577. [22:40] <%RingRush> same as versions: you have to play the fastest
  578. [22:40] <boris> ""vc world record? that's bullshit" - ingx24 2011" - arkanum 2011
  579. [22:40] <+Kryssstal> language separation seems really bad but idk
  580. [22:40] <Koobes> Why doesn't MM have English any% and J any%
  581. [22:40] <%RingRush> if you don't have it then you don't have the record
  582. [22:40] <Koobes> and TWW does
  583. [22:41] <Kosmicd12> qwerty has the oot any% no ww english world record
  584. [22:41] <%RingRush> the english record is like...fit for some sort of filter on the leaderboard but probably nothing more
  585. [22:41] <@maxx> the only reason tww is separated by language is because cosmo did not want to overwrite his english time with his first J time that beat it
  586. [22:41] <Kosmicd12> what a beast
  587. [22:41] <@maxx> lmao
  588. [22:41] <@jiano> its funny though because english without tuner is by far the most popular
  589. [22:41] <Orch|Brian> imo, wr should be only the absoutely fastest time for that specific game. the lang/versions shouldn't matter.
  590. [22:41] <@jiano> so the community would prob pick that right ?
  591. [22:41] <+zodiac> brian - what about games with big version differences on language though
  592. [22:41] <@Cosmo> well most ppl who run only have english + no gba so they just run that
  593. [22:41] <+zodiac> that are more than text
  594. [22:41] <boris> it is the most popular but the record for it is arguably one of the least optimized
  595. [22:41] <@Cosmo> ppl who are more serious get J and gba
  596. [22:41] <boris> well idk
  597. [22:42] <%RingRush> most people who run don't think they will get the wr though so its okay
  598. [22:42] <%RingRush> anyone who is serious about a record gets the equipment
  599. [22:42] <%RingRush> or else they give up on that record
  600. [22:42] <@jiano> yeah i agree with what rr said
  601. [22:42] <boris> yeah its about how serious are you in wind waker's case i geus...
  602. [22:42] <+zodiac> that should be how it works but it isnt rr
  603. [22:42] <@jiano> and thats why i believe fastest should always be the used version
  604. [22:42] <ChocoPoptart> The language seperation just seems silly
  605. [22:42] <@Cosmo> i think claiming that there are 4 wind waker world records is silly
  606. [22:42] <@Cosmo> but i did separate it cause of issues with filtering system
  607. [22:43] <ChocoPoptart> Unless there are major glitch differences between the languages
  608. [22:43] <boris> there are 4 wind waker world records and cosmo has all of them HEH
  609. [22:43] <+zodiac> no tuner is fine as a race goal and tracked on srl, but i dont see the point on zsr leaderboards
  610. [22:43] <boris> oh waiat he only has 3
  611. [22:43] <%RingRush> definitely have a filter, no reason to remove it
  612. [22:43] <boris> lol
  613. [22:43] <@jiano> cosmo, wasnt the english run "better" than japanese for al ong time though?
  614. [22:43] <Kosmicd12> i think that if it is obvious that the overall play of one run was better but the other was only faster from a version difference or something not related to quality of play that the other should still be considered the world record
  615. [22:43] <+Kryssstal> separating the most optimal speedrun version from more accessible versions just makes it annoying to look at full list of times
  616. [22:43] <@Cosmo> yes jiano
  617. [22:43] <@jiano> its shit like that which makes all this retarded
  618. [22:43] <Orch|Brian> i think that it's really easiest to just define WR as the fastest time for a game
  619. [22:43] <boris> Kosmicd12 i think thats a really bad way to go
  620. [22:43] <+Kryssstal> like if I were to look up tww why would I care about the best "english no tuner" run
  621. [22:43] <Orch|Brian> no need for stupid exceptions
  622. [22:43] <@Cosmo> anoter example is sig's run is "better" than a VC run that could be potentially a lower time
  623. [22:44] <Kosmicd12> im not saying like u vs j
  624. [22:44] <@Cosmo> yea I see that krystal and we should fix it somehow
  625. [22:44] <%RingRush> its not because the vc run is faster
  626. [22:44] <%RingRush> if this were sda I'd vouch for sig's run
  627. [22:44] <%RingRush> but for a leaderboard the vc one is faster
  628. [22:44] <Kosmicd12> im saying if someone beat another recofrd by like 10 seconds when their version is minutes faster
  629. [22:44] <Orch|Brian> doesnt matter, you should always run in the best conditions as possible
  630. [22:45] <%RingRush> by saying sig's run is better than a faster, vc time, you are just taking the sda approach of comparing quality over final time which I'm pretty sure many people here dont' like
  631. [22:45] <+Kryssstal> if someone wanted to beat sig they should play both vc and n64 then it'd be pretty solved tbh
  632. [22:45] <+Kryssstal> same thing applies to dkc1
  633. [22:45] <poodleskirt> i think all the "this run was better but had a worse time" stuff is silly
  634. [22:45] <ChocoPoptart> If somebody is serious enough about getting the record then they would go out and get the equipment that they need to get it
  635. [22:45] <Kosmicd12> lets all do wr attempts on iQue i guess
  636. [22:45] <+zodiac> rr: does sda actually do that
  637. [22:45] <poodleskirt> it's a speed run, not a "good play" run or whatever
  638. [22:45] <+Kryssstal> someone who wants to beat riz should beat riz on jp and us dkc1 and make any debates moot
  639. [22:45] <Orch|Brian> i agree with poodleskirt
  640. [22:45] <%RingRush> zodiac: yes, you can't get a record just by playing on a fster version for sda
  641. [22:45] <boris> yes zodiac they do
  642. [22:45] <@maxx> i also agree with poodle there
  643. [22:45] <@jiano> thats hard krystal lol
  644. [22:45] <@Cosmo> i think poodle is right
  645. [22:45] <boris> they also rejected a bk run that was faster than their current best time
  646. [22:45] <@jiano> vc and n64 are waaaaay diff
  647. [22:45] <@maxx> like sva's first run that beat ing's
  648. [22:46] <boris> the rejected run used new strats or something that were faster but overall the play was sloppier
  649. [22:46] <Orch|Brian> why are we discussing about sda?
  650. [22:46] <@maxx> that's ridiculous haha
  651. [22:46] <Orch|Brian> sda is stupid
  652. [22:46] <@maxx> faster time rejected
  653. [22:46] <Kosmicd12> maxx with the time difference between the 2 runs i think its obvious that sva's is overall faster lol
  654. [22:46] <@maxx> wtflol
  655. [22:46] <@maxx> Kosmicd12: sva beat ing's run twice
  656. [22:46] <Kosmicd12> o
  657. [22:46] <Kosmicd12> what was the first time
  658. [22:46] <@Cosmo> the first time it was not clear
  659. [22:46] <boris> 1:51 or something
  660. [22:46] <@maxx> his first one that beat ing's was not much faster
  661. [22:46] <boris> ALSO
  662. [22:46] <boris> ing's run
  663. [22:46] <%RingRush> because if people agree sda is stupid then they agree that we shouldn't care whether a run was vc or n64
  664. [22:47] <boris> single segment
  665. [22:47] <@maxx> yeah
  666. [22:47] <boris> he didnt reset to skip the cutscenes
  667. [22:47] <@maxx> vs sva's RTA
  668. [22:47] <@maxx> so sva had resets, VC, and JP
  669. [22:47] <@maxx> on his side
  670. [22:47] <@maxx> vs ing's no resets, n64, english
  671. [22:47] <%RingRush> *sda is stupid for caring about quality over time
  672. [22:47] <Kosmicd12> practically different categories Kappa
  673. [22:47] <@jiano> it sounds like the only thing up in the air is emulator vs console
  674. [22:47] <poodleskirt> yeah jiano i was wondering where the argument had gone or was going lol
  675. [22:47] <@jiano> i would never agree with like BK or cv64 over a console run
  676. [22:47] <Orch|Brian> emu is really sticky but i don't think that differences are big enough to warrant bans
  677. [22:48] <boris> the rules should not point toward emulator being the preferred version to run on
  678. [22:48] <boris> bottom line
  679. [22:48] <Orch|Brian> emus do invite more people to play though
  680. [22:48] <rog_> but vc is an emulator! DansGame
  681. [22:47] <+Kryssstal> entertainment over time has some bearing otherwise no one would run lttp without oob
  682. [22:48] <+Kryssstal> they would just do the 2 min run
  683. [22:48] <+Runnerguy2489> SMOKE EYEBALL FROG EVERYDAY!!!
  684. [22:48] <+zodiac> ban eyeball frog on n64!!!
  685. [22:48] <+zodiac> ban all eyeball frogs
  686. [22:48] <+Kryssstal> you can't say the 2 min run is "way overboard" when you also have the mentality that "only fastest thing possible matters"
  687. [22:48] <%RingRush> remove bgs from oot 100% definition problem solevd
  688. [22:48] <@jiano> i think its less about entertainment and more about skill krystal
  689. [22:48] <@jiano> from players pov
  690. [22:48] <@Cosmo> this isnt about OoT RR
  691. [22:48] <poodleskirt> lol @ ringrush
  692. [22:48] <@Cosmo> about all games
  693. [22:48] <Orch|Brian> then it's not a true 100%
  694. [22:49] <%RingRush> yeah I know that was a joke lol
  695. [22:49] <%RingRush> that shouldn't be removed
  696. [22:49] <Kosmicd12> you still have something in your adult trade slot so its still 100% amirite
  697. [22:49] <boris> even if bgs is removed from definition
  698. [22:49] <boris> i assume gk would be counted in that instance...
  699. [22:49] <boris> u still need claim check!
  700. [22:49] <%RingRush> alttp is so weird
  701. [22:49] <%RingRush> I compare alttp with spyro enter the dragonfly
  702. [22:49] <%RingRush> both have a long normal game and a 3 minute any%
  703. [22:49] <%RingRush> yet one people only care about the nonglitched, one people only care about glitched
  704. [22:50] <boris> alttp glitched
  705. [22:50] <boris> takes literally no skill
  706. [22:50] <+zodiac> well thats just cuz no one cares about spyro in the first place
  707. [22:50] <Mr_Carter> LA and LADX are the same way
  708. [22:50] <boris> a 5 year old could get under 3 minutes
  709. [22:50] <+Kryssstal> I've never heard of anyone caring about lttp 3min run
  710. [22:50] <Kosmicd12> i found a way to beat space chimps in under 2 minutes, must be best category ye? 1 luck based boss fight is all it is
  711. [22:50] <+zodiac> ive never even heard of space chimps, maybe it is the best category
  712. [22:50] <%RingRush> I think whether people like glitched runs are based on whether or not they are more fun
  713. [22:50] <boris> speedrunning is dumb in general
  714. [22:50] <Fenrikaz> LADX actually takes skill
  715. [22:50] <boris> lets play mafia
  716. [22:50] <%RingRush> alttp is (to people playing it) a fun game
  717. [22:51] <Kosmicd12> zodiac u should watch marathons that involve monkeys :(
  718. [22:51] <%RingRush> spyro is never a fun game
  719. [22:51] <rog_> brb speedrunning king's bounty
  720. [22:51] <Orch|Brian> whats the deal with alttp? if sub 3 mins is the quickest, then so it be. people can compete in arbitrary categories if they dont like the any%
  721. [22:51] <RME> I know people who care about the 3min run in the 'you can do that?' sense
  722. [22:51] <poodleskirt> i think if you're going to make a self-updating (or wiki-style) set of leaderboards for all the games people want to speedrun, the only things that should be banned are things that none of the people who play the game would plan on doing anyway
  723. [22:51] <@jiano> ya arbitrary categories are fine
  724. [22:51] <+Kryssstal> "any%" is dumb term and the 3min lttp run is "EG" not "any%"
  725. [22:51] <@jiano> and are often the preferred ones
  726. [22:51] <boris> ...........
  727. [22:52] <poodleskirt> and deal with in-community "legitimacy" issues on a case by case basis. because they will almost always happen. or they will never happen
  728. [22:52] <%RingRush> any% = fastest completion always
  729. [22:52] <+zodiac> we are locked into a lot of shitty terms
  730. [22:52] <%RingRush> at least it should be, it isn't now
  731. [22:52] <+zodiac> it kind of sucks
  732. [22:52] <Kosmicd12> ^
  733. [22:52] <%RingRush> but for leaderboards I'd say any% is always the fastest category no matter how glitched
  734. [22:52] <%RingRush> even if that is 1 minute for pokemon yellow
  735. [22:52] <Orch|Brian> i agree with RingRush
  736. [22:52] <Fenrikaz> Kryssstal. If im correct Any% means Pure speed. As in fastest completion. So Imo Yes it may be dumb. But EG alttp is true Any%
  737. [22:52] <poodleskirt> any% is what any% is according to the people who play the game
  738. [22:52] <@Cosmo> i think I would label that as "Save Corruption" @ yellow
  739. [22:52] <@maxx> strongly agree with RingRush
  740. [22:53] <@maxx> but w/e
  741. [22:53] <Kosmicd12> shouldnt the name any% define what it is
  742. [22:53] <@maxx> yes
  743. [22:53] <boris> i would label the other run "no save corruption"
  744. [22:53] <%RingRush> ^
  745. [22:53] <+Kryssstal> then go tell the super metroid people that GT code is "any%" and not "GT Code"
  746. [22:53] <%RingRush> what boris said
  747. [22:53] <+Kryssstal> because that beats the game faster but no one cares
  748. [22:53] <boris> Kryssstal thats honestly what i think
  749. [22:53] <RME> isn't the save corruption runs TAS specific?
  750. [22:53] <aldelaro5> I was afk for a while how is this debat is going?
  751. [22:53] <%RingRush> it isn't about what people care about it is about what is fastest
  752. [22:53] <@Cosmo> were all discussing leaderboards still and whats good and whats not
  753. [22:53] <boris> snes games are fucked
  754. [22:53] <boris> in terms of categories lol
  755. [22:53] <Fenrikaz> Kryssstal Thats different because it includes a code that was intended for the devs.
  756. [22:53] <Orch|Brian> how about we go back to the real issue- emu?
  757. [22:54] <Kosmicd12> glitches arent intended
  758. [22:54] <boris> sda classifies it as a cheat code
  759. [22:54] <%RingRush> though it does make sense to have a loewr bound
  760. [22:54] <boris> so they ban it
  761. [22:54] <+Kryssstal> why is a code different than pressing a button to load the ending
  762. [22:54] <boris> LMAO
  763. [22:54] <%RingRush> like if you could enter a password to get to the final boss in a game
  764. [22:54] <%RingRush> I would not call that any%
  765. [22:54] <%RingRush> so I don't know how to phrase a lower bound
  766. [22:54] <%RingRush> of what qualifies as any%
  767. [22:54] <boris> hmmm...
  768. [22:54] <rog_> without cheats?
  769. [22:54] <@Cosmo> lets not use the term any% if theres no % counter : D
  770. [22:54] <Fenrikaz> I love how SDA doesn't like LADX any% because its ' Extremely glitched '. YET they allow Save corruption Pokemon Yellow.
  771. [22:54] <Kosmicd12> SM has % counter :(
  772. [22:54] <%RingRush> cosmo we tried that with HESS
  773. [22:55] <%RingRush> it never works
  774. [22:55] <Orch|Brian> can we just change "any%" to "quickest game completion"
  775. [22:55] <Orch|Brian> or something
  776. [22:55] <+zodiac> beat the game
  777. [22:55] <+Kryssstal> LA screenwarp runs would be accepted
  778. [22:55] <%RingRush> people just stick to same lingo :(
  779. [22:55] <poodleskirt> how about just "completion"
  780. [22:55] <Mr_Carter> Fenrikaz we could go on for days about what SDA does and doesnt do lol
  781. [22:55] <+Kryssstal> SDA would accept a lot of things now
  782. [22:55] <boris> what about actual in-game cheats... do we say the competitive category is "any% no cheats"
  783. [22:55] <Orch|Brian> ingame cheats are fine?
  784. [22:55] <%RingRush> BT cheat run hype
  785. [22:55] <%RingRush> best BT category
  786. [22:55] <Kosmicd12> ingame cheats are fine if you're a dirty jp dk64 player !!!!
  787. [22:56] <@Cosmo> i think creating categories is easier than the emu ruling
  788. [22:56] <Fenrikaz> Kryssstal what are they accepting now that they weren't before, besides single segment with resets?
  789. [22:56] <boris> test
  790. [22:56] <+pokey> r u guys still talking about dead zone
  791. [22:56] <+Kryssstal> they would accept lttp 3min but who carez
  792. [22:56] <+pokey> i changed my deadzone for oot and i bet RG did too :D
  793. [22:57] <boris> hello? D:
  794. [22:57] <poodleskirt> i think banning emulator from any leaderboard where people run the game on emulator regularly is a bad idea
  795. [22:57] <Kosmicd12> not sure i could AE w/o my massive deadzone
  796. [22:57] <poodleskirt> since people would still play on emulator, obviously. it would just cause a rift
  797. [22:57] <+pokey> n64 adapter for VC can change the deadzone between 2ish choices
  798. [22:57] <boris> hi
  799. [22:57] <+pokey> elm we still can't see you
  800. [22:57] <%RingRush> Fastest Time [in general rules - this bans all codes and passwords], Fastest Time without [Save Corruption, Warping Glitches, etc], 100% (full completion?), low% (when applicable), other random categories that make no sense like 16star, BT with cheats, w/e
  801. [22:57] <@jiano> poodle but what about cases in games where emu is clearly faster
  802. [22:57] <+Kryssstal> ban n64 and later to fix issues
  803. [22:57] <+zodiac> wait what pokey
  804. [22:57] <+zodiac> how do you change deadzone
  805. [22:57] <+Kryssstal> only run old games
  806. [22:57] <+pokey> look at the website
  807. [22:57] <+zodiac> you can change sens but that doesnt touch deadzone does it?
  808. [22:58] <Orch|Brian> imo, just make ruleset for every game
  809. [22:58] <+pokey> changing sens is changing the deadzone
  810. [22:58] <Orch|Brian> if a game's emulation isnt an issue
  811. [22:58] <Orch|Brian> then allow it
  812. [22:58] <poodleskirt> okay, as far as that goes, i really don't care if emulator is faster by what would probably never be an amount of time that separated 1 and 2 on a leaderboard.
  813. [22:58] <@jiano> console players having to play emu should never happen
  814. [22:58] <Orch|Brian> if it's an issue, then don't permit it
  815. [22:58] <poodleskirt> i have no kneejerk reaction to that
  816. [22:58] <+pokey> the legendary ingx24 told me this so it must be true
  817. [22:58] <poodleskirt> if emulator is faster, people should play on emulator.
  818. [22:58] <+zodiac> he told me it didnt
  819. [22:58] <Fenrikaz> @Jiano. Than add times from VC onto it. Its simple
  820. [22:58] <+pokey> LOL
  821. [22:58] <+zodiac> fuck ingx24 and his LIES
  822. [22:58] <@jiano> BK is a good example i believe?
  823. [22:58] <@jiano> emulator is way faster
  824. [22:58] <@Cosmo> if emu is faster then its inaccurate and unfair to ppl who are on console
  825. [22:58] <%RingRush> the thing is anyone can m ake an emu
  826. [22:58] <@Cosmo> but at the same time a lot of ppl use emu these days
  827. [22:58] <%RingRush> that is even faster
  828. [22:59] <poodleskirt> okay let me be more specific
  829. [22:59] <+pokey> VC is faster so its unfair for n64 :O
  830. [22:59] <%RingRush> I can make an emu that goes 200% speed
  831. [22:59] <poodleskirt> because i can't speak outside the scope of oot really
  832. [22:59] <ChocoPoptart> But that would only be to the extent of the best players
  833. [22:59] <Fenrikaz> Lets say VC OOT has 0.06 load times and N64 has 0.1... Take out all the VC load time data and input 0.1's for them
  834. [22:59] <@jiano> obv thered be a specific emulator allowed
  835. [22:59] <%RingRush> whereas not everyone can make an official vc release
  836. [22:59] <Orch|Brian> just make it by game...
  837. [22:59] <Orch|Brian> like, bk= emu banned
  838. [22:59] <Orch|Brian> oot= emu not banned
  839. [22:59] <poodleskirt> if the difference is one that would not likely ever be the difference between 1 and 2 on a leaderboard then leave it
  840. [22:59] <poodleskirt> if it's like, play on emu and crush all other platforms, then yeah, ban it
  841. [23:00] <boris> Fenrikaz you cant accurately compensate for differences in amount of lag vs lag reduction strats
  842. [23:00] <poodleskirt> or whatever
  843. [23:00] <@jiano> what about the case of oot, where emu is only better in 100%? just ban emu in that category?
  844. [23:00] <boris> any penalty you apply to a certain version is gonna be more sketchy than the version itself
  845. [23:00] <aldelaro5> can you use a ratio between vc time and console time?
  846. [23:00] <Orch|Brian> is it better by signficant amount of time?
  847. [23:00] <poodleskirt> no, i don't see the point of banning emu in 100%
  848. [23:00] <%RingRush> someone is going to get ique oot
  849. [23:00] <%RingRush> and fuck everything up
  850. [23:00] <%RingRush> lol
  851. [23:00] <@jiano> i see
  852. [23:00] <poodleskirt> i say you let it be, and see if anyone ever takes 100% on emulator by a super small amount of time
  853. [23:00] <boris> just destroy all iques
  854. [23:00] <Mr_Carter> natalyahasdied has ique oot
  855. [23:01] <poodleskirt> compared to the top n64 run
  856. [23:01] <boris> he does? wow
  857. [23:01] <poodleskirt> because that likely won't happen imo
  858. [23:01] <%RingRush> stuff like ique I'm worried about
  859. [23:01] <@Cosmo> ique is a good point heh
  860. [23:01] <%RingRush> since those are not readily available so you can't just "get one"
  861. [23:01] <+pokey> aleck ermit also has ique
  862. [23:01] <Jbop> i agree with poodle
  863. [23:01] <@jiano> so pretty much if vc exists then emulator is ok too
  864. [23:01] <+pokey> he will get teh dampe wr :O
  865. [23:01] <@jiano> it sounds like ur saying
  866. [23:01] <+zodiac> someone here
  867. [23:01] <Orch|Brian> vc is an emulator
  868. [23:01] <+zodiac> said something about someone they knew getting an ique and planning to do runs on it
  869. [23:01] <Orch|Brian> so..
  870. [23:01] <boris> vc is an official release of the game
  871. [23:01] <@jiano> vc is an emulator created by nintendo
  872. [23:01] <%RingRush> pydoyks you're done
  873. [23:01] <%RingRush> ique will destroy you
  874. [23:02] <boris> everyone who plays on vc will have the exact same settings and lag and all that shit
  875. [23:02] <boris> its not like emu where hardware differences and plugins and shit make difference between emu players
  876. [23:02] <boris> it is standardized
  877. [23:02] <+zodiac> even people on n64 dont have that with version differences lol
  878. [23:02] <poodleskirt> oh yeah well you guys soft mod your wiis to play it so it's totz not legit hax hax hax hax
  879. [23:02] <Fenrikaz> Jiano. Doesn't VC have lag reduction and stuff? Is it not different from the original
  880. [23:02] <+zodiac> poodle idk why you dont get console
  881. [23:02] <+pokey> what if i have jp console
  882. [23:02] <+pokey> and i flew to japan to buy oot
  883. [23:02] <+zodiac> you own at the game and play it tons why wouldnt you want real version
  884. [23:02] <poodleskirt> i have console. i have every version we play it on
  885. [23:03] <poodleskirt> i prefer emulator because practice is better
  886. [23:03] <Fenrikaz> @Zodiac. He does have a Jap cart he just prefers Emulator so he can practice more.
  887. [23:03] <%RingRush> poodle isn't the only emulator player though if we are talking about more than just zelda
  888. [23:03] <%RingRush> there are a lot of record holders on emulator
  889. [23:03] <@jiano> u can practice on emu and play on console
  890. [23:03] <@jiano> a lot of ppl do
  891. [23:03] <+zodiac> just seems so weird to me to dump that much time into the game and not do runs on an official version
  892. [23:03] <poodleskirt> why has this turned into trying to convince me to not play on emu lol
  893. [23:03] <+pokey> wat if poodle's tv has input lag
  894. [23:03] <Mr_Carter> its not just you lol
  895. [23:04] <poodleskirt> i don't think anything is illegitimate about it, playing on console would be inconvenient so i won't
  896. [23:04] <Fenrikaz> Hey Jiano
  897. [23:04] <@jiano> hey
  898. [23:04] <@Cosmo> i will never play commadner keen 4 on actual DOS
  899. [23:04] <@Cosmo> but i enjoy doing runs of it
  900. [23:04] <Fenrikaz> Don't you do your Alttp runs on a SNES emulator for the wii?
  901. [23:04] <%RingRush> I will never play MSSCWACEW on an actual DS
  902. [23:04] <@jiano> yeah
  903. [23:04] <poodleskirt> we've decided that any wii emulators don't count as emulators for the purpose of this discussion because they were officially released by nintendo
  904. [23:04] <+zodiac> that acronym
  905. [23:04] <+pokey> i play all of my games on the legitimate console
  906. [23:05] <+pokey> :D
  907. [23:05] <+zodiac> makes me laugh every time
  908. [23:05] <@Cosmo> well
  909. [23:05] <@jiano> im gonna get a snes when i get better at the game
  910. [23:05] <poodleskirt> sorry i could feel the bias flowing through my fingers when i typed that
  911. [23:05] <@jiano> i would never stay on emulator if i got serious
  912. [23:05] <@Cosmo> i'd say actual VC is official and the wii homebrew emus are "emulatorS"
  913. [23:05] <boris> what Cosmo said for sure
  914. [23:05] <poodleskirt> anyone else think the capitalized S had significance there for a second
  915. [23:05] <@Cosmo> sorry, wii VC is an emulator, jsut an official emulator
  916. [23:05] <@Cosmo> no im bad at typing
  917. [23:06] <+zodiac> i pirate all my games to play on legitimate systems
  918. [23:06] <+zodiac> is the only way i can handle my life
  919. [23:06] <+zodiac> (being eurotrash)
  920. [23:06] <%RingRush> if we are only using official versions of the game we should only use official movement techniques like running instead of supersliding!!!!!!
  921. [23:06] <@jiano> what about playing roms on original console
  922. [23:06] <@jiano> oh sh!t
  923. [23:06] <boris> supersliding is an official movement technical, it exists in an official version of the game ^_^\
  924. [23:06] <boris> *technique
  925. [23:07] <poodleskirt> i don't understand the mentality of "i play on emu but if i got good i would switch to console". nothing has really changed, why bother
  926. [23:07] <@Cosmo> thats because of how ppl view it
  927. [23:07] <@jiano> because t he console is 100% for sure accurate
  928. [23:07] <+zodiac> just seems to me if youre taking the game that seriously youd be wanting to play on the proper official version
  929. [23:07] <@Cosmo> some ppl disagree that emu counts, or that it "sort of counts" and is "sketchy"
  930. [23:07] <@jiano> and its exactly the same for everyone who uses it
  931. [23:07] <poodleskirt> sound analogous to the situation where sig switched to n64
  932. [23:07] <+Kryssstal> it's good to do whatever run you "retire" with on console, emu is just trainin
  933. [23:07] <poodleskirt> which we all agree was silly
  934. [23:08] <boris> we agree it was silly because sm64 vc is an official version and thus should be counted
  935. [23:08] <poodleskirt> i understand that
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