DLL's PM inquiry

Mobius

It came to our attention that we were too hasty in approving your profile sheet that we have overlooked finer details that raised alarms for us. We apologize. The list below is a list of discrepancies we would like for you to appropriately modify as we have asked others to do as well.

[coder]
ron Body, Burning Spirit: La Màquina is an android, crafted for war. Her body is made of alloys and synthetic material blends far in advance of anything an ordinary fleshy mortal could ever hope to stand up to, and the Fuego de la Orden which serves as her blazing heart supplies her with a seemingly endless stream of power in a staggering variety of types, flavors, and disciplines. La Màquina is faster, stronger, tougher, and just better than almost every Natural she’s ever met.[/coder]


    We are concerned about the stacking capabilities of the Blazing Heart and its almost limitless energy variety.


[coder]Factory of Pain – Ojos de Demonio: ‘The Demon’s Eyes’ – an exacting and precise array of interweaving sensory systems allowing La Màquina to track, analyze, and store for later replication or modification the weapons, abilities, and natures of the foes she fights, or the friends she allows to teach her. The Ojos double as an extremely precise enemy tracking system in close-quarters battles of ranges under two hundred meters – longer-distance detection is reliant on less precise if still potent distance sensors and passive senses, but in close the Demon’s Eyes are difficult to spoof or evade, granting la Màquina supernatural awareness of her immediate environs. Integral to the suite of systems and devises which make up the Diablo’s Foundry, the Ojos de Demonio cannot be escaped.[/coder]


    Reduction of the range for Factory of Pain - Ojos de Demonio's sight.

------------------------------------------------------------

Laser

The Fuego de la Orden is a gateway mechanism. La Maquina does not possess a typical 'mana pool' standard for other characters - she has no overall limitation on the duration she can act and cast for, she doesn't run out of MP so to speak, but there's a limit to what she can draw and utilize at one time which prevents her from "stacking" too many multiples of effects at once. This functionality is critical to La Maquina's functionality - without the Fuego to drive the Diablo's Foundry the core framework the character is built on is unworkable. I would like to ask for a clarification of what it is you're expecting me to do here, so I may either comply or defend my case.

Range reduction for Ojos de Demonio: what range are you looking for? Two hundred meters is already quite short, well within the effective range of both La Maquina's actions and those of most of her competitors. I'm not sure I understand the issue with knowing where an enemy is when they're within pistol range of her?

-------------------------------------------------------------

Mobius

For the Fuego De La Orden -

We don't enforce drains or "magic points" cost on abilities because those are subjective and impossible to enforce. For example if someone said "certain uses of my abilities may drain my x" then we can't really deduce at what conversion or rate, volume, and even maximum capacity can this be effectively enforced from a mechanical level (which is how we judge) and thus we prod players to find a much more concrete or functional limitation.

The second part is that we didn't deduce that from the Blazing Heart or essentially 'Diablo’s Foundry' minus that it cannot use the technique of an opponent in the same match it is used; however, the other limitations are harder to enforce as we do not know what constitutes as complex or sophisticated nor how much time but these issues as more minor than the former. We are really primarily interested in what appears to be a limitless variety of things the Blazing Heart can achieve. Like we told some other players: we cannot truly recommend how you plan to compensate for the change, but we can work with the changes you may propose. We just ask for a limitation on what is currently possible in application. This works double for your Warrior's Aura which not only is a physical defense but can be altered along your Blazing Heart to achieve the rainbow of possibilities.

The range reduction of Ojos De Demonio serves both as an FRT (Fast Reaction Time) and a data mining ability to learn things about the opponent and, possibly, allowing you to soft meta-game along with blazing heart (energy type variety) and Diablo Foundry (create the variety into tangible forms). I think a solution is to first clarify how the Ojos works because we do not see any implementation or "delivery" system other than it being a sensory. The sensory can be implied at 360 because it is supernatural and we already told another player to reduce their "sensory" range of an akin variety because 200 meters will put everyone within your field.

I understand this can be a menace to you, but we go by what is directly stated in your profile sheet and analyze it accordingly. Limitations and boundaries you have thought of or impose must be put in the profile sheet. The Blazing Heart is the key culprit of what we suspect a possible stacking with Ojos being a justifiable meta-game device. Hopefully we can come to some terms.

----------------------------------------------------------

Laser

    [For the Fuego De La Orden -

    We don't enforce drains or "magic points" cost on abilities because those are subjective and impossible to enforce. For example if someone said "certain uses of my abilities may drain my x" then we can't really deduce at what conversion or rate, volume, and even maximum capacity can this be effectively enforced from a mechanical level (which is how we judge) and thus we prod players to find a much more concrete or functional limitation.

    The second part is that we didn't deduce that from the Blazing Heart or essentially 'Diablo’s Foundry' minus that it cannot use the technique of an opponent in the same match it is used; however, the other limitations are harder to enforce as we do not know what constitutes as complex or sophisticated nor how much time but these issues as more minor than the former. We are really primarily interested in what appears to be a limitless variety of things the Blazing Heart can achieve. Like we told some other players: we cannot truly recommend how you plan to compensate for the change, but we can work with the changes you may propose. We just ask for a limitation on what is currently possible in application. This works double for your Warrior's Aura which not only is a physical defense but can be altered along your Blazing Heart to achieve the rainbow of possibilities.]
    @Devil


The Fuego de la Orden is capable of producing most "basic" types of ethereal power, as is needed by basic techniques Maquina utilizes in the manner of a fairly typical Empowered Warrior.  She has access to elemental energies, arcane energies, and most anything else a mage-type character could draw upon and utilize with the appropriate rituals.  She does not have access to Divine energies or Infernal energies, or other forms of power which are drawn from a unique source or via a unique method, and cannot replicate techniques which utilize those abilities without first finding a way to convert them, typically with steep penalties, into more common forms of power.

Consider Maquina a Mage-Engineer - she's not going to match another character in their primary strength, but is instead built to be able to engage with different tactics suited to whatever she's fighting.  Maquina will not be able to out-swordfight a master bladesman like Dias, she cannot match the sheer brawling power of Lobo Negro or El Rey, she doesn't begin to have the ability to simply delete entire battlefields in a single turn the way two full-sized dragons with built-in full-strength lightning storms acting as a single character do.  She does not have the Beardforce.  What Maquina has is the versatility of her weapon/item creation and her broad range of tricks and techniques, much like a mage-style character is expected to have a broad range of spells they can utilize in lieu of being as powerfully razor-focused on one singular specialty as the Dias Blades and the Gonad Yaksplitters and the El Reys of the world.

I would like to ask what sort of parameters and limitations you're hoping to see for this aspect of Maquina's kit.  I'm reticent to simply cripple the character further on principle, especially as I have already culled the entirety of Maquina's typical armament and many of her sub-abilities completely, whilst restricting what remains to below her normal levels.  You may not believe it, but I've cut Maquina down harder than I originally believed I could already.  If it's not enough, I'd like to know specifically how, and what you're looking to do, so I can address that rather than continue to fumble in the dark.


    [The range reduction of Ojos De Demonio serves both as an FRT (Fast Reaction Time) and a data mining ability to learn things about the opponent and, possibly, allowing you to soft meta-game along with blazing heart (energy type variety) and Diablo Foundry (create the variety into tangible forms). I think a solution is to first clarify how the Ojos works because we do not see any implementation or "delivery" system other than it being a sensory. The sensory can be implied at 360 because it is supernatural and we already told another player to reduce their "sensory" range of an akin variety because 200 meters will put everyone within your field.

    I understand this can be a menace to you, but we go by what is directly stated in your profile sheet and analyze it accordingly. Limitations and boundaries you have thought of or impose must be put in the profile sheet. The Blazing Heart is the key culprit of what we suspect a possible stacking with Ojos being a justifiable meta-game device. Hopefully we can come to some terms.]
    @Devil


On the topic of 'delivery' systems...they're an active sensor array.  They work by sending out a carrier pulse, which hits a target and then returns to Maquina and provides information to her, like any other active sensor array.

The problem I have with hard numbers, and this is something I absolutely hate about everyone who demands hard numbers and adjustments to hard numbers (ergo not just you guys), is that nobody ever provides a fucking scale.  How much is too much?  What's short range, medium range, long range for a system like this?  What's the Standard Figure to compare to?

Numbers are nothing more than a means for whoever lucks out and gets the highest ones approved to win whatever fight he wants for free.  "My flame can generate 3600 degrees of heat!"  "HAH!  My flame resistance allows me to withstand 3625 degrees of heat!  YOUR POWERS ARE WORTHLESS ON ME, PEON!"  It's bullshit of the highest order, a gigantic metagaming party-time problem fiesta unless every player involved knows what the scales are ahead of time, prior to character creation.

What you want me to do is to disable the Ojos de Demonio altogether, which I am loathe to do as it would be somewhat akin to telling a normal, Natural character's player to disable that character's hearing or sense of touch.  Maquina relies on the Ojos as a primary sense; I've already cut her range by a goodly margin in the conversion to this Luchalliance sheet.  If you wish me to cut the range further, then again, I ask for a specific target you're looking for and the reasoning behind that target.

Please give me a scale if you desire hard limitations on absolutely everything I've written.

--------------------------------------------------------

Mobius

    [I would like to ask what sort of parameters and limitations you're hoping to see for this aspect of Maquina's kit.]
    @DLL


Reading above it seems you already have a good idea of exactly that; though, in the future it is recommended you don't attempt tell me the limitations of your character and instead implement them since it appears you have ideas already. For reference

You CANNOT use any power, weapon, ability, item, or etc that is NOT stated in your profile sheet UNLESS authorized by a map; however, you may use or create byproducts of your abilities, weapons, power, items, etc through In Character creativity.

Besides the brain fart involving the word map, TZDL requires everything be stated.

    [The problem I have with hard numbers, and this is something I absolutely hate about everyone who demands hard numbers and adjustments to hard numbers (ergo not just you guys), is that nobody ever provides a fucking scale. How much is too much? What's short range, medium range, long range for a system like this? What's the Standard Figure to compare to?]
    @DLL


Though this is a decent point.. you put a hard number first and then said it was small and wonder why we want a reduction. There were other players who came in with equally grandiose values I told them to scale back on. The reason we ask for a scale down isn't the sensory, but the amount of abilities the sensory does plus the additional applications of both Blazing heart (the point of contention) and the Foundry since it can deduce information to facilitate them both. Do you think your sensory range was the only contention we had? My last PM had minor problems we argued on, but decided in fairness to allow you just a range reduction.

    [Numbers are nothing more than a means for whoever lucks out and gets the highest ones approved to win whatever fight he wants for free. "My flame can generate 3600 degrees of heat!" "HAH! My flame resistance allows me to withstand 3625 degrees of heat! YOUR POWERS ARE WORTHLESS ON ME, PEON!" It's bullshit of the highest order, a gigantic metagaming party-time problem fiesta unless every player involved knows what the scales are ahead of time, prior to character creation.]
    @DLL


I find this paragraph a little humorous if you don't mind me. I find a funny because the Interest Thread demonstrated exactly what scale these types of powers had, and one point of contention was Mitsu Mazono or Decoy's main character who only has a 10 to 15 foot radius electric auto-defense. The funny part isn't all the heat, electric kinetic, and mind resistance I see. The funny part is that you put 200 meters and insisted that it was small, but then got upset when I asked you to scale it back.

I will take into consideration the hard numbers for certain things, but this PM isn't the time or place for that. Oh! and before you bring him up: We haven't even read or gotten to him yet.

    [What you want me to do is to disable the Ojos de Demonio altogether, which I am loathe to do as it would be somewhat akin to telling a normal, Natural character's player to disable that character's hearing or sense of touch. Maquina relies on the Ojos as a primary sense; I've already cut her range by a goodly margin in the conversion to this Luchalliance sheet. If you wish me to cut the range further, then again, I ask for a specific target you're looking for and the reasoning behind that target.]
    @dll


You would be arguing something else had I actually told that to you, and you know me well enough that I would have said this directly. We would have even asked you to scale everything about it to begin with to render it obsolete, but I have a tournament to run that is much more important than nerfing your character into oblivion. This isn't about you. I want this tournament to succeed to a degree where we can have more, and doing something dumb like fucking you over would only hurt me in the end. We asked for a scale back and if you can't adhere then remove it. Everyone else has complied with us including your fellow members, and one of them with only one edit inquiry.

Also I don't recall the Ojos being the absolute way your character perceives the world just that it is the ultimate sensory to do certain things with. The reason for the scale-back is simple: Again you can deduce information from enemy players, know what works, and then use holoconstructs to counter them in an attempt to meta-game. You used vague words such as "complex" and "time" as supplemental weaknesses to leverage attempts to claim certain tech or such are not THAT COMPLEX since we have no scale to exactly enforce what your character constitutes as sophisticated (since she, herself, is an android with processes beyond "naturals"). This is why we want your Blazing Heart to have some sort of limits. You know this exactly which is why you are arguing these superficial points instead of proposing changes. This isn't hard and I am willing to give things to you, but I also have a tournament to run and other players to worry about. I don't mind your versatility, but you should know better than to pull these shenanigans with me particularly.

Now can we actually toss ideas at each other for a compromise or am I forced to reject your profile?

I'll start:

200 meters is 656.16. I don't mind the FRT since EVERYONE has one that is like nigh infinite tracking so we're not going to touch that. How about reduce the range of the actual foundry ability to assess and know what something is down to 30.4 meters which is 100 feet. The reason for this drastic reduction is that your profile doesn't state exactly HOW it senses, but you have it stated here as a pining field beyond normal senses that can assess vital information on all objects on the field down to the character's loadout. So because of the Blazing Heart and Holoconstruct with Ojos pretty much being an all encompassing field of sensory requiring no more than just autohitting blips I'd say 100 feet is fair since it'd add variance of speeds to your already well built physical and supernatural defenses.

For the future: I think it'd be better to stick with the basics on character functions. You should actually specify how things work and at what limit. Did you know certain things have inherent limits that don't need specifying? Anyhow, it is best you don't tell me how it works but instead redo the aforementioned sections and proposal them so we can mow it better. Please be more elaborate next time.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Laser

Very well.

Edited original profile post. Relevant edited section is copied below, as so:

-Moves

Iron Body, Burning Spirit: La Màquina is an android, crafted for war.  Her body is made of alloys and synthetic material blends far in advance of anything an ordinary fleshy mortal could ever hope to stand up to, and the Fuego de la Orden which serves as her blazing heart supplies her with a seemingly endless stream of power in a staggering variety of types, flavors, and disciplines.  La Màquina is faster, stronger, tougher, and just better than almost every Natural she’s ever met.

La Màquina’s body is built to take abuse, with a battle steel skeleton able to survive dozens of tons of impact force on its own.  A kinetic spreader system integrated into her core deflects and diffuses impacts against her away, allowing her to reflect damage she suffers away from her more vulnerable internal systems and back out into her myomer rig and extremity boneframe.  Said myomer rig is built to respond directly to energies flowing from the Fuego, allowing La Màquina to alter her physical capabilities to some extent on the fly simply by altering the nature and degree of ethereal energies driving her body – she can switch between an emphasis on crushing physical power to an emphasis on dazzling speed and agility, or to an emphasis on sheer toughness, swiftly enough that many less nimble foes believe she bears all three properties in equally ridiculous measure.

Worst of all, La Màquina is an entirely synthetic being.  She thinks much faster than Naturals typically can, her reaction times often seem to border on prescience, and her ability to execute planned and thoughtful actions even in the midst of a screaming fracas cannot be matched by even the most harshly trained of Naturals.  La Màquina’s synthetic nature comes with its own drawbacks, and she is far from invincible or unbreakable, but she would not trade her gods-reforged body for anything.

---ADDENDUM: Tournament restrictions required by TZDL judging committee stipulate that the Fuego de la Orden be restricted to one-fiftieth of its otherwise nominal output for the duration of the tournament, and furthermore than the Fuego cannot be utilized to fuel any independent techniques or abilities beyond La Maquina's Diablo's Foundry or basic bodily reinforcement.  Its output must be limited to basic 'normal' mana-type energies, without any access to exotic energy types.

Warrior’s Aura: La Màquina is surrounded at all times by a cloud of her own power she refers to (in the ring) as her Warrior’s Aura.  The field eases high-velocity combat by reducing atmospheric friction and eliminating microimpacts from debris thrown up by her own motions or her enemies’ strikes, and also serves as a form of low-level defensive barrier that can blunt weaker attacks and act as a first line of protection against stronger ones.  La Màquina is able to finely manipulate her Aura, increasing its protective radius or density of power or transforming it completely into new states as part of her battery of specialty techniques.

---ADDENDUM: Tournament restrictions required by TZDL judging committee stipulate that the Warrior's Aura cannot be used defensively and must be utilized strictly as a means of protecting La Maquina from high-speed microimpact debris, or for its uses with certain types of Diablo's Foundry constructs.

Fallen Angel’s Halo: La Màquina is able to generate a large halo-like construct of radiant energy above her head, a three-quarters ring roughly four feet in diameter with a break centered forward of her, ringed with six mantling techno-angelic wings of light.  The Halo provides two primary functions to La Màquina, the first of which is freedom of three-dimensional movement.  With her Halo active, La Màquina is able to levitate and fly as swiftly as she is able to traverse distance on the ground, though doing so slightly reduces the overall availability of power from her Fuego.

Secondly, the Halo serves as the focusing system for a weapon known as the Lamento del Pecador – a variable-output beam weapon which can build up power by tapping into La Màquina’s Fuego.  Her ability to fuel her other weapons and systems is reduced while the Lamento is charging, nor does the weapon charge terribly quickly, but unlike many other such weapons, the Lamento does not possess an upper power limit.  Given long enough to build up strength, La Màquina’s Lamento can destroy almost anything with a single piercing bolt of devastating power…though the limits of time in a fight often impose their own restrictions on just how much power La Màquina can realistically build in her Halo before firing.

---ADDENDUM: Tournament restrictions required by TZDL judging committee stipulate that the Fallen Angel's Halo grants la Maquina excessive mobility by the tournament's standards, and that the scaling destructive power of the Lamento del Pecador represents too much potential for abuse, and as such the Fallen Angel's Halo cannot be utilized in the tournament.

Factory of Pain – Ojos de Demonio: ‘The Demon’s Eyes’ – an exacting and precise array of interweaving sensory systems allowing La Màquina to track, analyze, and store for later replication or modification the weapons, abilities, and natures of the foes she fights, or the friends she allows to teach her.  The Ojos double as an extremely precise enemy tracking system in close-quarters battles of ranges under two hundred meters – longer-distance detection is reliant on less precise if still potent distance sensors and passive senses, but in close the Demon’s Eyes are difficult to spoof or evade, granting la Màquina supernatural awareness of her immediate environs.  Integral to the suite of systems and devises which make up the Diablo’s Foundry, the Ojos de Demonio cannot be escaped.

---ADDENDUM: Tournament restrictions required by TZDL judging committee stipulate that the Ojos de Demonio be restricted to a ten-meter maximum range as opposed to a two hundred meter maximum range, and require a minimum of three full turn cycles, i.e. six posts, before any detailed information can be derived from the system.  Required clarification: the Ojos de Demonio are a multifunctional sensor array comprising a number of different active sensor systems conveyed via a unified carrier pulse wave.  Within its ten-meter range the Ojos can penetrate light or porous cover, but is not permitted to penetrate heavy cover or heavy armor.

Factory of Pain – Diablo’s Foundry: La Màquina bears the ability to transform the prodigious power output of the Fuego de la Orden into holophysical constructs, enabling her to create weapons, techniques, and even pale doppelgangers of herself on the fly as she requires them.  The Foundry was built specifically as La Màquina’s greatest possible weapon, making full and vicious use of the widely variable output of the Fuego de la Orden.  Utilizing the Diablo’s Foundry, La Màquina can make use of a dizzying array of armaments and abilities she has learned, stolen, or designed on her own in her travels, making her by far the most versatile of the Luchalliance’s fighters.  Worse, all of La Màquina’s constructs are able to revert back to the energy used in their creation at any time she desires – violently, if she so wishes it, granting an ethereal self-destruct option to everything she creates.  Nothing is safe in a ring that contains La Màquina or anything she has forged.

Despite this, there are limitations to the Foundry’s abilities, and thus to la Màquina’s.  While she can utilize the finely-honed sensor systems of the Ojos de Demonio  to track and eventually replicate enemy weapons or techniques, this process takes time, analysis, and experimentation – La Màquina’s ability to turn the power of her foes against them cannot be utilized in the same match she first learns of a technique in, unless the technique is so simple it requires no extra knowledge to recreate.  La Màquina’s Foundry is also limited in its speed to an extent; while smaller or simpler objects can be whipped up nigh as quickly as La Màquina can think of them, larger or more complex creations require time, investiture, or focus, if not all three.  Particularly involved creations can be lost partway through if an opponent is aggressive enough and manages to break la Màquina’s defenses, though this is rare.  Furthermore, once an item or technique is finished, it leaves La Màquina’s direct control and cannot be remotely manipulated by the Demon unless it’s specifically designed to do so – with the exception of her unique Finishing Move, the Thousand Executions.

---ADDENDUM: Tournament restrictions required by TZDL judging committee stipulate that the Diablo's Foundry adhere to hard limitations on both number and type of constructs available to la Maquina at any given time.  As follows:

-Passive constructs are inert, simple shapes formed of a single piece of raw material.  Maquina is permitted to create a maximum total of ten Passive constructs per turn.
-Mechanical constructs involve moving components and different materials, such as a handgun, but which does not involve electronics, arcane enhancements, or exotic materials.  Maquina is permitted to create a maximum total of four Mechanical constructs in one turn.
-Advanced constructs may incorporate electronic functionality, simple arcane effects, or limited amounts of exotic materials in their construction.  Maquina is permitted to create a maximum total of one Advanced construct per turn.
-'Special' constructs are Advanced constructs which take the form of partial copies of la Maquina's own body.  Her ability to serve as a template for these constructs allows her to create a maximum total of one Special construct a turn, in addition to her Advanced construct.

Finishing Move!
“Beautiful Iron Demon’s Thousand Executions”

La Màquina knocks a defeated foe to the ground on their back, then stomps down on their ribs with one heel, pinning them in place.  When this is done, she conjures a golden marble in the palm of her right hand, building tremendous energy and complexity into the device over the course of nearly a minute while her foe struggles in vain to escape his fate.  When the technique is complete, La Màquina crushes the marble and unleashes her technique, explosively expanding her Warrior’s Aura to encompass the entire battlefield and conjuring up hundreds of weapons of all different types, makes, and degrees of strength.  Unlike normal Diablo’s Foundry creations, these weapons obey La Màquina’s will and move as she desires them to within the aegis of her Aura, enabling her to strike down her pinned foe with every single tool of her chosen armory in a savage fusillade of destruction.

---ADDENDUM: Tournament restrictions required by TZDL judging committee stipulate that the Thousand Executions is far too high-tier for the expected level of competition in the tournament, and must be stricken from the profile.