(New BB message (15/12) posted to 'Shifter Gaian Garou' by Jake: Respect 101)
[Garou] Monica has joined this channel.
[Garou] Feed Me! Zeppelin stares
[Garou] Monica says, "Yeah no shit."
[Garou] Feed Me! Zeppelin says, "That message makes me want to leave the sept immediately"
[Garou] Monica says, "Yep!"
[Garou] Bastion Sebastien says, "...I legitimately am having a hard time coming up with a reason for Bastion, with his pack's purpose, to stay."
[Garou] Pants Ninja Felix mmhmm.
[Garou] Monica says, "Considering the bullshit this sprang from? Yeah, no."
[Garou] <<Mocks-The-Dark>>, George has left this channel.
[Garou] Truthcatcher, Alecto says, "I honestly don't see any issue with the post. And it wasn't about just this. There have been numerous other incidents leading up to this post."
[Garou] Monica LOL okay
[Garou] Truthcatcher, Alecto says, "tl;dr Don't be an ass."
[Garou] Feed Me! Zeppelin says, "-- Some may let it slide but I will not. Therefore, I am issuing a promise, not a warning or a threat, but a promise that I will personally administer physical harm to any Kin that I witness being disrespectful to one of our esteemed Elders. Without any preamble. Your actions and or words will have immediate and swift repercussions and no one, your mate, your tribal leader, or the Den Father, will be able to protect you."
[Garou] Monica says, "Else you'll be physically beaten."
[Garou] Feed Me! Zeppelin says, "That is my problem"
[Garou] Bastion Sebastien says, "That really doesn't change the fact that someone in a pack whose entire purpose is protecting kin from harmful Garou action is really not keen on a Sept that facilitates that kind of attitude."
[Garou] Future Dictator Billy says, "The message itself is sound, if Jake's opinion/reaction to stuff is wrong to you then talk to him about it"
[Garou] Truthcatcher, Alecto says, "That's what I was just about to say, Billy"
[Garou] Future Dictator Billy says, "That's not a grand elder decree, that's one person saying a thing"
[Garou] Bastion Sebastien says, "It's a continued behavior that has been seen elsewhere"
[Garou] Truthcatcher, Alecto says, "It is?"
[Garou] Bastion Sebastien says, "Sure is."
[Garou] Future Dictator Billy says, "So change some minds then"
[Garou] Bastion Sebastien says, "All I said is Bastion has a hard time finding a reason to stay affiliated. That may change minds, it may not, but it is still a true statement."
[Garou] Future Dictator Billy says, "and I just mean, if the pack's thing is protecting kin from something, leaving over a guy's attitude or what have you doesn't serve the purpose"
[Garou] Future Dictator Billy says, "Besides, if nothing else, it generates RP"
[Garou] Bastion Sebastien says, "That's also untrue. Fighting someone with that much rank difference won't get us anywhere. Not /supporting/ s"
[Garou] Future Dictator Billy says, "I'm not saying fight with someone higher rank, I'm saying talk to a dude."
[Garou] Bastion Sebastien says, "Supporting societies that facilitate the behavior, however, sends a message. *"
[Garou] Bastion Sebastien shrugs. "You can have your method, I'll have mine."
[Garou] Future Dictator Billy says, "That could be true, but leaving leaves the kinfolk you want to protect. I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, just offering a counterpoint is all."
[Garou] Bastion Sebastien says, "Or it gives them a group of unaffiliated people that can give them other options than the Sept."
[Garou] Future Dictator Billy shrugs, It's just challenge and a chance to gain/lose renown/affect whatever kind of changes in a game
[Garou] Bastion Sebastien says, "Sure. I'm not losing sleep over it. XD It's also just a group of characters possibly making a decision to establish a different community due to differing beliefs in a game."
[Garou] Monica says, "Yep."
[Garou] Future Dictator Billy says, "That too"
[Garou] Joliet Dex says, "It's almost like the Garou are a military organization more concerned with the destruction of the wyrm."
[Garou] Monica says, "You'd think so, but there seems to be an awful lot of time spent on gossip instead."
[Garou] Feed Me! Zeppelin says, "To be fair, I think gossip happens when 4+ people are involved. It just happens. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's universal of most games."
[Garou] Joliet Dex has been called worse by a superior in RL and had to go 'Yes, sir.' Jake's comment fits right well with a group that is more in the line of 'Shut the fuck up we're loosing a war for our existance and God' then one that wants to make people comfortable.
[Garou] Future Dictator Billy agrees
[Garou] Katerina has joined this channel.
[Garou] <<Mocks-The-Dark>>, George has joined this channel.
[Garou] Future Dictator Billy says, "With both them things."
[Garou] Feed Me! Zeppelin says, "BRB. Going to see if my connection is up yet."
[Garou] Feed Me! Zeppelin says, "back"
[Garou] Truthcatcher, Alecto sees it this way: Jake isn't saying 'I'm watching you! Don't mess up because I'm watching you!' He's saying 'If you flip off an Elder, I'm going to break your finger.'
[Garou] Bastion Sebastien says, "Yep. Some people find that unacceptable."
[Garou] WhoopingCrane has joined this channel.
[Garou] WhoopingCrane says, "If I may:"
[Garou] Feed Me! Zeppelin says, "Doesn't that break litany? Kinfolk are a territory of another and you are to respect that. Saying I can't go to a den person, my tribal elders or my mate seems like a litany break."
[Garou] Feed Me! Zeppelin fluffs WC's feathers. *fluff*
[Garou] WhoopingCrane says, "'Black Unicorn demands thta his children defend those who are unable to defend themselves.' I believe that kinfolk are able to defend themselves by /not disrespecting an elder in front of Jake/. This is only difficult if you are hell-bent on OOCly manufacturing Not Fun Drama."
[Garou] Bastion Sebastien says, "I wasn't saying anything about my Pack Totem's demands."
[Garou] Monica says, "That's not really what he's putting forward."
[Garou] Bastion Sebastien says, "o_O"
[Garou] Truthcatcher, Alecto says, "Okay. So RL: If I heard someone call an old lady a bitch because she said something you didn't like, I'm not going to let it slide. And what WC said."
[Garou] WhoopingCrane says, "And if that is you, then I AM SICK TO FUCKING DEATH OF HEARING ABOUT YOUR BULLSHIT FIFTY TIMES A WEEK, YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE. I hope this is clear."
[Garou] Bastion Sebastien says, "...o_O"
[Garou] Monica ditto.
[Garou] Katerina says, "whose bullshit, exactly?"
[Garou] Feed Me! Zeppelin says, "Now mind you... I'm not exactly on the kin's side in the recent issue and I think my char for the most part has learned to toe the line. So she'd just avoid the person to be fair --- HOWEVER --- it comes off very, I don't know anti-kinfolk."
[Garou] WhoopingCrane says, "Katerina: Manufacturers of Not Fun Drama. Because I hear like /allllllll/ the rants about it ever."
[Garou] Bastion Sebastien says, "But yes, WC, I can understand that I would not be compelled by my Totem ban to do anything here. That doesn't necessarily mean that the characters in this pack, which formed with certain values in mind, would be comfortable with this action and wouldn't be inclined to give people other options. Which is by no means an attempt at Not Fun Drama, just an IC decision to do something different, which people can interact with as they see fit."
[Garou] Firebird's Amethyst says, "Speaking from the sidelines, watching the words go back and forth. I'm seeing and hearing both sides, and it looks like two different expectations and playstyles that are colliding."
[Garou] WhoopingCrane says, "Now, yes, the Litany includes 'Respect Those Beneath Ye - All Are Of Gaia' and 'Respect the Territory of Another'. But it /also/ includes 'Submission to Those of Higher Station'. If different parts of the Litany are in conflict, then someone should probably call in a Philodox to decide which parts /should/ take precedence in that particular situation based on merits."
[Garou] WhoopingCrane says, "Ame: Yes, to say the least. We periodically get bouts of one or more PCs trying to RP (basically) soap opera drama, and one or more other PCs trying to RP (basically) a response of 'goddammit, we are literally fighting to save the planet here, we do not have time to indulge your petty bullshit'."
[Garou] Pants Ninja Felix says, "Those are not the two sides here."
[Garou] WhoopingCrane says, "Whether Jake's post is anti-kinfolk depends on whether the kinfolk is doing the stuff he's griping about."
[Garou] WhoopingCrane says, "Felix, what do you see as the two sides, in that case?"
[Garou] Feed Me! Zeppelin says, "I'm more worried on a player level -- player not char -- that I will not pose dropping my eyes or something quick enough, he'll see it as disrespect and then I'm slapped around or hurt."
[Garou] Pants Ninja Felix says, "I need a moment to figure out how to phrase it, so one moment please."
[Garou] Feed Me! Zeppelin says, "Now, if I'm calling an elder (or Garou) names and getting in their face - I deserve to be smacked down for that."
[Garou] Katerina says, "I wouldn't call Garou A) basically stating they are not responsible for controlling their rage and B) threatening other people's kinfolk "petty bullshit". Regardless, people have IC discomforts with an IC action and will have their own IC responses... none of this seems like Not Fun Drama."
[Garou] Truthcatcher, Alecto says, "Have any of you met Jake? Most of you have. At what point has he ever had an overly irrational action? I can only think of one time when he's done something even remotely hostile and even that didn't come to VIOLENCE. It was a grab, a warning. And well-deserved. He isn't going to go around beating people for not dropping their eyes or accidentally speaking when George says something. He's talking about being honest to god disrespectful."
[Garou] Joliet Dex says, "I will offer this. If people want some help in understanding the reality/very common view there Jake (which yes exists in RL but with different consequences as you can't be fired from the Garou) is putting up then feel free to page. I don't want to add to the spam and frankly don't want to argue about it as that will do exactly 0 good."
[Garou] WhoopingCrane says, "K: Well, it is a joint responsibility. A Garou who sees a rage trigger approaching should try to defuse it or get away from it (as some do). At the same time, when kinfolk who should know better keep jabbing at those buttons over and over again, it gets old fast."
[Garou] Feed Me! Zeppelin says, "And.. I will say that Jake's warning was a good char development to get a person to look at how to interact respectfully when not failing rolls of head visions. >.> #Answering4AFriend"
[Garou] Feed Me! Zeppelin says, "I totally agree with that, WC"
[Garou] WhoopingCrane says, "There could also be an excellent story around a kinfolk who ICly is legitimately driven into trauma/whatever to the point of hitting those buttons, etc. I think it comes down to 'does it OOCly seem like the kinfolk's player is doing it for shits and giggles, as opposed to telling an interesting story'."
[Garou] Firebird's Amethyst says, "I see rape culture, vs not rape culture. But that's me, watching my character get horribly conflicting IC info from two very different-minded groups. I get concerned when I see high fiving and back patting in OOC comments in a scene where Elders are IC circling a Kinfolk like a kill, provoked because she's hurt enough to lash out. Comments praising such should be kept private, or OOC and IC bleed. Consistently, I am reminded to keep IC IC. Where was the warning for the Elders in that ugly scene?"
[Garou] Truthcatcher, Alecto says, "Rape.. culture... what?"
[Garou] WhoopingCrane says, "Including 'does it seem like the kinfolk's player is intentionally setting themselves up for ham-fisted cause and effect'."
[Garou] Pants Ninja Felix says, "In this conversation, there is one side that feels Garou threatening physical harm to far less powerful and squishier allies for what they perceive as disrespect is not only acceptable, but necessary. There is another side that does not feel it is either. That has nothing to do with anyone causing OOC drama, or even IC drama, *even if the post is precipitated by such*. And yes, I have to pretty much agree with both Katarina and Amethyst's last comments."
[Garou] Monica says, "Yes."
[Garou] Katerina says, "Yeah, it is a joint responsibility, that's absolutely true. It just seems to me that people are on chan trying to OOCly dissuade or police people's IC reactions to an IC event... which seems odd. Granted I was also a little late to the party."
[Garou] Monica says, "Watching from an outside/relative newcomers perspective, the situation that brought this to a boil also has a heavy feeling of OOC feelings being taken out IC, on a player that everyone likes to dogpile on a regular basis for (insert reason). Whether it's deserved or not, whatever. How it comes off IC is skeezy as hell. While the 'soap opera' gripe may have legitimacy, I honestly don't think people realize HOW skeezy it's gotten, at face IC value. It's left a pretty sour veneer over a lot of this."
[Garou] Katerina says, "and yes, I get how kin players OOCly trying to poke the bear over and over without giving two shits about the setting is frustrating for garou players and gets real old real fast."
[Garou] Bastion Sebastien says, "Soo... >> << >> I was only trying to make a comment about an IC reaction. I'm going to not engage with this discussion anymore as it seems people are now trying to appeal to me as a player, and are getting very ooc upset and I'm really looking for that by any means. So I'm going to step away and wish every one a good, and fruitful, night. <3"
[Garou] Feed Me! Zeppelin says, "You have a strawberry night too, Sebastien."
[Garou] WhoopingCrane has said his piece for now, goes back to poking at job backlog
[Garou] WhoopingCrane has left this channel.