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- 1
- 00:00:28,725 --> 00:00:31,116
- You know, I grew up
- in country like this.
- 2
- 00:00:31,295 --> 00:00:34,110
- My dad and I were riding
- our horses up to these amazing...
- 3
- 00:00:34,165 --> 00:00:35,842
- high mountain lakes.
- 4
- 00:00:35,928 --> 00:00:40,578
- We'd ride back in to some pretty
- remote wilderness areas with...
- 5
- 00:00:40,664 --> 00:00:44,399
- incredible streams, and meadows,
- and, and wildlife.
- 6
- 00:00:44,530 --> 00:00:46,258
- I love it here.
- 7
- 00:00:49,366 --> 00:00:50,642
- Look at this canyon.
- 8
- 00:00:50,689 --> 00:00:52,954
- It reminds me of
- the Grand Canyon.
- 9
- 00:00:52,993 --> 00:00:54,594
- You got this old stream.
- 10
- 00:00:54,629 --> 00:00:57,019
- You got these steep canyon walls.
- 11
- 00:00:57,246 --> 00:00:58,838
- How long do you
- suppose it would take
- 12
- 00:00:58,863 --> 00:01:00,543
- for a stream this small
- 13
- 00:01:00,668 --> 00:01:02,504
- to remove this much material
- 14
- 00:01:02,566 --> 00:01:05,131
- and cut the canyon this deep?
- 15
- 00:01:06,599 --> 00:01:08,295
- This rock has a story.
- 16
- 00:01:08,389 --> 00:01:10,928
- Just like I do and
- just like you do.
- 17
- 00:01:11,029 --> 00:01:12,975
- It came from somewhere.
- 18
- 00:01:13,092 --> 00:01:15,951
- A lot of these rocks
- have been dated to be
- 19
- 00:01:15,998 --> 00:01:19,639
- 350,000 years old,
- up to 2 million.
- 20
- 00:01:19,769 --> 00:01:21,623
- That is pretty old.
- 21
- 00:01:22,193 --> 00:01:24,584
- But, it might surprise you
- to know
- 22
- 00:01:24,631 --> 00:01:27,936
- that all the geological formations
- that we see here,
- 23
- 00:01:27,990 --> 00:01:29,334
- the cannons,
- 24
- 00:01:29,569 --> 00:01:32,115
- the layers,
- even the plants,
- 25
- 00:01:32,326 --> 00:01:34,217
- are younger than I am.
- 26
- 00:01:34,490 --> 00:01:36,317
- When I was born,
- there was nothing here,
- 27
- 00:01:36,342 --> 00:01:37,896
- but the vast forest,
- 28
- 00:01:37,944 --> 00:01:41,576
- hundreds of feet below where
- we're standing right now.
- 29
- 00:01:42,214 --> 00:01:44,224
- In fact, before 1980,
- 30
- 00:01:44,328 --> 00:01:46,951
- most people had never even heard
- 31
- 00:01:47,029 --> 00:01:48,826
- of Mount Saint Helens.
- 32
- 00:01:53,626 --> 00:01:56,297
- It was in that year,
- on May 18th
- 33
- 00:01:56,336 --> 00:01:58,915
- that molten rock created a steam blast
- 34
- 00:01:58,940 --> 00:02:02,227
- with the force of 20 million tons of TNT.
- 35
- 00:02:02,282 --> 00:02:05,868
- Avalanche debris and
- other flows of the eruption
- 36
- 00:02:05,922 --> 00:02:08,791
- lay down all of those layers rapidly
- 37
- 00:02:08,869 --> 00:02:11,221
- up to 600 feet thick.
- 38
- 00:02:11,457 --> 00:02:12,863
- A couple of years later,
- 39
- 00:02:12,903 --> 00:02:15,161
- uh, there were some more
- volcanic activity
- 40
- 00:02:15,199 --> 00:02:17,051
- that created a mudflow
- 41
- 00:02:17,137 --> 00:02:19,551
- that cut out this entire canyon.
- 42
- 00:02:19,754 --> 00:02:23,223
- It also cut through deep bedrock,
- 43
- 00:02:23,325 --> 00:02:25,426
- all in a couple of days.
- 44
- 00:02:25,809 --> 00:02:27,129
- Isn't it amazing,
- 45
- 00:02:27,192 --> 00:02:30,637
- what a little bit of information
- from the past can do
- 46
- 00:02:30,754 --> 00:02:32,480
- to help change your view
- 47
- 00:02:32,534 --> 00:02:35,644
- of the present and
- the present world around you?
- 48
- 00:02:36,387 --> 00:02:40,504
- There're a lot of assumptions
- made by a lot of people,
- 49
- 00:02:40,848 --> 00:02:44,215
- about the history
- of the Earth around us.
- 50
- 00:02:44,652 --> 00:02:46,785
- The question is,
- how do those assumptions
- 51
- 00:02:46,816 --> 00:02:50,230
- affect how
- we view the history?
- 52
- 00:02:50,512 --> 00:02:52,324
- But more importantly,
- 53
- 00:02:52,481 --> 00:02:55,527
- how do they play in
- how we view science
- 54
- 00:02:55,637 --> 00:02:57,105
- and the Bible?
- 55
- 00:02:57,807 --> 00:03:01,691
- Did God create the world in a few days
- 56
- 00:03:01,957 --> 00:03:04,465
- or billions of years?
- 57
- 00:03:04,661 --> 00:03:07,457
- Is humanity descended from apes?
- 58
- 00:03:07,652 --> 00:03:11,543
- Or did God created us instantly,
- in his image?
- 59
- 00:03:11,885 --> 00:03:15,816
- Was there a global flood that
- destroyed the Earth?
- 60
- 00:03:16,098 --> 00:03:18,059
- Or is that a myth?
- 61
- 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:19,887
- In other words,
- 62
- 00:03:20,052 --> 00:03:22,676
- is Genesis history?
- 63
- 00:03:59,633 --> 00:04:01,501
- When we think about
- the history of the Earth,
- 64
- 00:04:01,532 --> 00:04:03,829
- there are a lot things
- we need to consider.
- 65
- 00:04:03,871 --> 00:04:07,422
- But one of the most fascinating
- is the account of the Flood.
- 66
- 00:04:07,515 --> 00:04:10,297
- Was the whole Earth
- covered with water?
- 67
- 00:04:10,424 --> 00:04:13,758
- Genesis says the waters prevailed
- so mildly on the Earth
- 68
- 00:04:13,790 --> 00:04:17,234
- that all the high mountains
- in the whole heaven were covered.
- 69
- 00:04:17,315 --> 00:04:19,377
- So if the Flood was truly global,
- 70
- 00:04:19,455 --> 00:04:21,917
- wouldn't there be a lot of evidence?
- 71
- 00:04:22,682 --> 00:04:25,337
- I had heard of a scientist
- who has spent over 40 years
- 72
- 00:04:25,362 --> 00:04:26,979
- studying this question.
- 73
- 00:04:27,091 --> 00:04:29,479
- When I spoke with him,
- he said he had a great place
- 74
- 00:04:29,511 --> 00:04:32,315
- where we could see evidence
- for the global Flood.
- 75
- 00:04:35,245 --> 00:04:37,921
- Steve, I got to admit,
- I, I've been here several times
- 76
- 00:04:37,948 --> 00:04:40,511
- but every time I come here,
- it is breathtaking.
- 77
- 00:04:40,565 --> 00:04:42,175
- Uh, besides being at home,
- 78
- 00:04:42,206 --> 00:04:43,995
- - our Grand Canyon is my favorite
- - Yeah.
- 79
- 00:04:44,034 --> 00:04:45,284
- - place on Earth.
- - Yeah.
- 80
- 00:04:45,542 --> 00:04:48,292
- So, Steve, tell me,
- what, what do you see here?
- 81
- 00:04:48,323 --> 00:04:49,731
- When we look at
- the Grand Canyon,
- 82
- 00:04:49,770 --> 00:04:53,997
- we see the inside story
- to the ground beneath our feet.
- 83
- 00:04:54,083 --> 00:04:56,731
- And we kind of have
- a layered cake here, don't we?
- 84
- 00:04:56,786 --> 00:04:58,083
- Of Strata
- 85
- 00:04:58,131 --> 00:05:01,350
- that have been eroded
- for our benefit
- 86
- 00:05:01,374 --> 00:05:04,327
- to see the inside structure
- of the Earth.
- 87
- 00:05:04,428 --> 00:05:07,733
- These same layers are also in Colorado.
- 88
- 00:05:07,817 --> 00:05:10,561
- Well, also in Illinois,
- also in Pennsylvania.
- 89
- 00:05:10,586 --> 00:05:13,389
- So when you say, sedimentary strata,
- 90
- 00:05:13,436 --> 00:05:15,244
- you're talking about
- the layers that we see?
- 91
- 00:05:15,276 --> 00:05:18,476
- Yes. So the lowest layers
- are formed first.
- 92
- 00:05:18,538 --> 00:05:21,853
- Little sediment grains
- that were mixed,
- 93
- 00:05:21,884 --> 00:05:25,790
- separated, and flowed in here
- from different directions
- 94
- 00:05:25,853 --> 00:05:28,735
- and accumulated one ontop of another.
- 95
- 00:05:28,829 --> 00:05:30,095
- And then, of course,
- 96
- 00:05:30,142 --> 00:05:32,923
- naturally, they convert to rock.
- 97
- 00:05:32,985 --> 00:05:35,853
- So you're saying that the solid ground
- we're standing on right now
- 98
- 00:05:35,907 --> 00:05:37,837
- if we went back in its history,
- 99
- 00:05:37,884 --> 00:05:39,493
- - it'd be liquid?
- - Yes.
- 100
- 00:05:39,540 --> 00:05:42,493
- So the ocean is doing
- some amazing things
- 101
- 00:05:42,518 --> 00:05:45,426
- and water of, of incredible power
- 102
- 00:05:45,481 --> 00:05:48,564
- is depositing the layers
- we see in the canyon.
- 103
- 00:05:48,614 --> 00:05:50,786
- And are there fossils
- in all those layers?
- 104
- 00:05:50,817 --> 00:05:53,546
- There are marine fossils
- through all the layers.
- 105
- 00:05:53,639 --> 00:05:55,577
- Uh, but the standard explanation is,
- 106
- 00:05:55,609 --> 00:05:59,006
- there were 17 different
- advances and retreats
- 107
- 00:05:59,069 --> 00:06:02,514
- of the ocean over
- the north American continent,
- 108
- 00:06:02,561 --> 00:06:05,725
- and it was extended over
- hundreds of millions of years.
- 109
- 00:06:05,772 --> 00:06:08,155
- And what is the evidence
- that you see here
- 110
- 00:06:08,186 --> 00:06:10,467
- that would say that
- doesn't seem to make sense?
- 111
- 00:06:10,522 --> 00:06:14,751
- The 4,000 feet of flat line
- strata in the canyon are flat.
- 112
- 00:06:14,790 --> 00:06:16,085
- And relative to one another,
- 113
- 00:06:16,110 --> 00:06:17,938
- we look in between
- the strata layers
- 114
- 00:06:17,977 --> 00:06:20,579
- and we don't see the passage of time
- 115
- 00:06:20,642 --> 00:06:21,910
- in between layers.
- 116
- 00:06:21,941 --> 00:06:22,949
- You mean erosion?
- 117
- 00:06:22,980 --> 00:06:25,329
- Erosion, specially,
- and channeling
- 118
- 00:06:25,355 --> 00:06:29,096
- uh, on any great scale is not visible.
- 119
- 00:06:29,131 --> 00:06:30,886
- And then we look at
- the strata themselves,
- 120
- 00:06:30,902 --> 00:06:33,386
- they provide evidence of rapid,
- 121
- 00:06:33,457 --> 00:06:35,410
- very rapid sedimentation.
- 122
- 00:06:35,464 --> 00:06:39,642
- Just minutes or hours is all
- it's needed to make layers.
- 123
- 00:06:39,707 --> 00:06:41,621
- Well, tell me about
- the story of these layers.
- 124
- 00:06:41,646 --> 00:06:42,980
- I mean, how did they get here?
- 125
- 00:06:43,011 --> 00:06:44,871
- "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life,
- 126
- 00:06:44,902 --> 00:06:47,371
- from the second month of
- the seventeenth day of the month,
- 127
- 00:06:47,402 --> 00:06:50,920
- the same day were all the fountains
- of the great deep broken up,
- 128
- 00:06:50,974 --> 00:06:52,958
- and the windows of heaven were opened."
- 129
- 00:06:52,997 --> 00:06:56,796
- My understanding is
- the ocean floor upheaval occurred,
- 130
- 00:06:56,858 --> 00:06:58,968
- - some type of magma or...
- - Uh-huh.
- 131
- 00:06:59,030 --> 00:07:01,866
- earthquake propelled
- the oceans over the continent.
- 132
- 00:07:01,897 --> 00:07:03,272
- So that's why we get
- 133
- 00:07:03,304 --> 00:07:06,638
- uh, these marine fossils
- in these layers?
- 134
- 00:07:06,663 --> 00:07:08,101
- Yes. And we have six months
- 135
- 00:07:08,132 --> 00:07:10,171
- the waters prevailed upon the earth.
- 136
- 00:07:10,218 --> 00:07:13,676
- Another seven months or so
- for the water to subside.
- 137
- 00:07:13,701 --> 00:07:17,447
- The 4,000 feet of strata
- probably represent the early
- 138
- 00:07:17,486 --> 00:07:19,557
- and middle part of the global Flood
- 139
- 00:07:19,592 --> 00:07:21,156
- right here in the Grand Canyon.
- 140
- 00:07:21,181 --> 00:07:22,496
- We have other strata
- 141
- 00:07:22,543 --> 00:07:24,746
- locally in this Grand Canyon region.
- 142
- 00:07:24,777 --> 00:07:27,050
- That's called "The Grand Staircase".
- 143
- 00:07:27,089 --> 00:07:31,097
- We have about 10,000 feet,
- two miles thick of strata
- 144
- 00:07:31,136 --> 00:07:33,511
- - on top of the Grand Canyon.
- - Higher than where we are.
- 145
- 00:07:33,550 --> 00:07:35,308
- Higher than where we are,
- 146
- 00:07:35,363 --> 00:07:36,816
- now represents uh,
- 147
- 00:07:36,863 --> 00:07:40,834
- the later stages of the Flood
- and the retreat of the flood water.
- 148
- 00:07:40,869 --> 00:07:44,215
- This surface was beveled by
- the retreat of flood waters.
- 149
- 00:07:44,269 --> 00:07:48,059
- And as the flood retreated into
- the newly formed ocean basins,
- 150
- 00:07:48,113 --> 00:07:51,051
- then the continents probably uplifted
- 151
- 00:07:51,082 --> 00:07:54,021
- and the Ark,
- of course, was landed
- 152
- 00:07:54,092 --> 00:07:56,732
- in high country
- in the Middle East.
- 153
- 00:07:56,802 --> 00:07:58,982
- Well, there are some people
- who say that, that...
- 154
- 00:07:59,037 --> 00:08:01,380
- record is about a local flood.
- 155
- 00:08:01,482 --> 00:08:03,187
- I believe it's a global flood.
- 156
- 00:08:03,212 --> 00:08:05,781
- And "all the high hills
- or the whole heaven were covered",
- 157
- 00:08:05,813 --> 00:08:07,359
- the universal statement,
- 158
- 00:08:07,406 --> 00:08:10,328
- but mountains have risen since then.
- 159
- 00:08:10,406 --> 00:08:12,928
- And we shouldn't measure
- the depth of the floodwaters
- 160
- 00:08:12,953 --> 00:08:14,961
- by the present mountains of the Earth,
- 161
- 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,244
- which largely created during
- the Flood and after the Flood.
- 162
- 00:08:19,315 --> 00:08:23,268
- Well, the fact that we have
- all of these layers, um...
- 163
- 00:08:23,330 --> 00:08:26,930
- would be unknown to us
- if we were standing on them
- 164
- 00:08:26,955 --> 00:08:28,158
- you know,
- somewhere else,
- 165
- 00:08:28,221 --> 00:08:31,045
- but they're known to us
- because they've been cut out.
- 166
- 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:32,455
- How did that happen?
- 167
- 00:08:32,494 --> 00:08:35,861
- Well, it was the story that
- we all learned in grammar school.
- 168
- 00:08:35,893 --> 00:08:37,635
- OK, Colorado River,
- 169
- 00:08:37,674 --> 00:08:41,254
- over tens of millions of years,
- cut the Grand Canyon.
- 170
- 00:08:41,301 --> 00:08:44,976
- Most geologists have jettisoned that idea.
- 171
- 00:08:45,053 --> 00:08:47,767
- It's hard to sustain a canyon like this
- 172
- 00:08:47,802 --> 00:08:50,248
- for uh tens of millions of years.
- 173
- 00:08:50,287 --> 00:08:54,312
- Uh, uh, you can't imagine a canyon
- enduring that long with erosion
- 174
- 00:08:54,337 --> 00:08:57,602
- Is that because it would, eventually,
- the sides would have collapsed and...
- 175
- 00:08:57,656 --> 00:08:58,890
- - Yes.
- - broken down?
- 176
- 00:08:58,968 --> 00:09:02,049
- Then how in the world that
- we get this all carved out?
- 177
- 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,080
- Well, uh,
- there are a lot of theories,
- 178
- 00:09:04,119 --> 00:09:06,534
- and personally,
- I like the idea...
- 179
- 00:09:06,596 --> 00:09:08,642
- of catastrophic erosion
- 180
- 00:09:08,682 --> 00:09:11,324
- by drainage of lakes.
- 181
- 00:09:11,394 --> 00:09:15,653
- So after the flood,
- we have these large bodies of water,
- 182
- 00:09:15,692 --> 00:09:17,723
- these lakes that are trapped.
- 183
- 00:09:17,793 --> 00:09:20,599
- There is evidence of the big lake
- in the Painted Desert,
- 184
- 00:09:20,624 --> 00:09:22,468
- - a place called "Hopi Buttes",
- - Hhh.
- 185
- 00:09:22,499 --> 00:09:26,944
- about 500 cubic miles
- of water in this huge lake...
- 186
- 00:09:27,029 --> 00:09:30,787
- And so the dam breaks and
- all of that massive amount of water
- 187
- 00:09:30,818 --> 00:09:34,709
- then is now pouring out
- and carving this.
- 188
- 00:09:34,742 --> 00:09:38,179
- Yes. And how long would it take
- to erode Grand Canyon?
- 189
- 00:09:38,234 --> 00:09:39,666
- Maybe weeks.
- 190
- 00:09:39,737 --> 00:09:41,893
- But not, uh, millions of years.
- 191
- 00:09:41,932 --> 00:09:44,783
- - Time is not a magic wand...
- - Uh-huh.
- 192
- 00:09:44,814 --> 00:09:48,338
- that solves all the geological
- problems of the world.
- 193
- 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,527
- Jettison that way of thinking
- 194
- 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,465
- about millions of years
- and then start thinking...
- 195
- 00:09:53,543 --> 00:09:57,090
- about catastrophic processes
- like you see in Mount St. Helens...
- 196
- 00:09:57,154 --> 00:10:01,100
- and that will help you
- understand Grand Canyon.
- 197
- 00:10:01,709 --> 00:10:02,959
- Everywhere we looked,
- 198
- 00:10:03,006 --> 00:10:07,259
- Steve showed me evidence of
- the incredible power of moving water.
- 199
- 00:10:07,361 --> 00:10:09,939
- They quickly laid down
- these enormous layers,
- 200
- 00:10:09,964 --> 00:10:12,040
- then quickly eroded them away.
- 201
- 00:10:12,150 --> 00:10:14,376
- Steve wanted to show me
- where the floodwaters
- 202
- 00:10:14,407 --> 00:10:15,759
- first hit the continent.
- 203
- 00:10:15,807 --> 00:10:18,587
- So he took me deeper
- into the canyon.
- 204
- 00:10:20,098 --> 00:10:22,145
- Steve, when you said
- you're gonna bring me to the bottom,
- 205
- 00:10:22,176 --> 00:10:24,392
- you, you weren't kidding
- when you word
- 206
- 00:10:24,454 --> 00:10:25,825
- the word "the bottom", are we?
- 207
- 00:10:25,872 --> 00:10:30,030
- We are in this uh, big side canyon
- to the main Grand Canyon...
- 208
- 00:10:30,108 --> 00:10:32,772
- and we are looking at
- the granite basement rock,
- 209
- 00:10:32,835 --> 00:10:36,129
- which is the, the core
- of the continent, if you will...
- 210
- 00:10:36,164 --> 00:10:39,768
- and then we see the flat
- lining strata on top of it.
- 211
- 00:10:39,830 --> 00:10:43,008
- The boundary between
- the granite rock below
- 212
- 00:10:43,033 --> 00:10:45,644
- and the Tapeats sandstone above
- 213
- 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,607
- is this surface we call
- the Great Unconformity.
- 214
- 00:10:49,748 --> 00:10:53,567
- Why, why does it appear
- to be such a, a stark line?
- 215
- 00:10:53,592 --> 00:10:54,598
- I mean, it's clear.
- 216
- 00:10:54,623 --> 00:10:58,891
- I think it's an erosional
- boundary of colossal scale.
- 217
- 00:10:58,953 --> 00:11:01,752
- We're looking at something
- that uh, shows the,...
- 218
- 00:11:01,822 --> 00:11:04,219
- the magnitude of flood flow...
- 219
- 00:11:04,297 --> 00:11:05,541
- over a surface.
- 220
- 00:11:05,580 --> 00:11:06,978
- And this is just here?
- 221
- 00:11:07,057 --> 00:11:09,307
- The Great Unconformity
- is continent wide.
- 222
- 00:11:09,377 --> 00:11:11,760
- I've seen it, I believe,
- in the Middle East.
- 223
- 00:11:11,799 --> 00:11:13,393
- It's over in Europe.
- 224
- 00:11:13,478 --> 00:11:14,705
- Uh, it's in Africa.
- 225
- 00:11:14,744 --> 00:11:17,471
- And here it is uh, under
- the North American continent.
- 226
- 00:11:17,502 --> 00:11:21,471
- So, we got this uh, layer,
- how thick is this layer?
- 227
- 00:11:21,503 --> 00:11:22,924
- What goes up from here?
- 228
- 00:11:22,971 --> 00:11:25,473
- Well, we have the Sauk
- Megasequence here,
- 229
- 00:11:25,498 --> 00:11:27,184
- if you will,
- a thousand feet of...
- 230
- 00:11:27,239 --> 00:11:31,028
- sandstone, shale, limestone
- that go continent wide.
- 231
- 00:11:31,121 --> 00:11:33,754
- - There are four other big sequence
- - Hmm.
- 232
- 00:11:33,779 --> 00:11:36,256
- packages of strata
- that sit above it.
- 233
- 00:11:36,311 --> 00:11:39,779
- Those are also
- very continuous like this.
- 234
- 00:11:39,889 --> 00:11:43,889
- What we're seeing here
- is rather representative
- 235
- 00:11:43,928 --> 00:11:45,428
- of the rest of the world.
- 236
- 00:11:45,482 --> 00:11:48,890
- It makes one uh,
- really question the notion
- 237
- 00:11:48,915 --> 00:11:51,461
- that this all happened
- because of a small local flood.
- 238
- 00:11:51,486 --> 00:11:53,297
- We're talking about
- something enormous.
- 239
- 00:11:53,322 --> 00:11:57,148
- The power of moving water
- was beveling and pulverizing rock,
- 240
- 00:11:57,234 --> 00:12:00,699
- depositing great thicknesses of layers...
- 241
- 00:12:00,754 --> 00:12:04,822
- and calling our mind
- to think about the global flood.
- 242
- 00:12:05,081 --> 00:12:08,384
- The conventional story is
- entirely different, though.
- 243
- 00:12:08,455 --> 00:12:11,504
- It would say that
- there is a lot of time...
- 244
- 00:12:11,551 --> 00:12:13,434
- between each of these layers.
- 245
- 00:12:13,496 --> 00:12:16,115
- Some people have said that
- the Great Unconformity
- 246
- 00:12:16,154 --> 00:12:19,061
- boundary here represents
- half of billion years.
- 247
- 00:12:19,100 --> 00:12:21,006
- You mean, between the granite
- we see and that
- 248
- 00:12:21,037 --> 00:12:22,608
- first layer of sedimentary rock?
- 249
- 00:12:22,635 --> 00:12:25,662
- Yeah. They say that maybe
- half of billion years there.
- 250
- 00:12:25,733 --> 00:12:30,340
- Ok, and that's what their
- explanation of Earth history
- 251
- 00:12:30,410 --> 00:12:33,045
- would ask them to consider.
- 252
- 00:12:33,131 --> 00:12:35,201
- Yet, when you come here
- and look at this...
- 253
- 00:12:35,256 --> 00:12:37,024
- nearly a featureless plane.
- 254
- 00:12:37,055 --> 00:12:39,348
- It's not an exactly a plane,
- 255
- 00:12:39,391 --> 00:12:41,125
- but it's a gently...
- 256
- 00:12:41,180 --> 00:12:42,915
- - rolling surface.
- - Uh-huh.
- 257
- 00:12:42,963 --> 00:12:46,180
- And would that be the product
- of billions of years...
- 258
- 00:12:46,227 --> 00:12:49,598
- or would that be the product
- of the power of water...
- 259
- 00:12:49,660 --> 00:12:51,457
- - planing off a surface?
- - Hhh.
- 260
- 00:12:51,567 --> 00:12:54,434
- Time is foreign to...
- 261
- 00:12:54,481 --> 00:12:56,606
- - a good explanation here.
- - Uh-huh.
- 262
- 00:12:56,637 --> 00:12:59,270
- And so we want
- to explain what we see.
- 263
- 00:12:59,452 --> 00:13:02,295
- Everywhere we look,
- we see the power of water.
- 264
- 00:13:02,334 --> 00:13:04,717
- And it's water on
- a colossal scale.
- 265
- 00:13:04,742 --> 00:13:07,288
- And that's the story here
- at Grand Canyon.
- 266
- 00:13:07,355 --> 00:13:10,366
- It's not a little of water
- and a lot of time.
- 267
- 00:13:10,489 --> 00:13:14,045
- It's a lot of water in a little time.
- 268
- 00:13:15,412 --> 00:13:17,506
- Time really is the essential issue
- 269
- 00:13:17,562 --> 00:13:19,858
- when talking about
- the history of the Earth.
- 270
- 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,702
- How much time did it take
- to form what we see around us?
- 271
- 00:13:23,834 --> 00:13:26,327
- It seemed clear to me that
- the global Flood would have
- 272
- 00:13:26,352 --> 00:13:28,592
- transformed the Earth quickly.
- 273
- 00:13:28,694 --> 00:13:30,108
- Yet I know,
- many people think
- 274
- 00:13:30,139 --> 00:13:33,702
- that the world formed slowly
- over billions of years.
- 275
- 00:13:33,850 --> 00:13:38,077
- What was the real difference
- between these two views of time?
- 276
- 00:13:38,491 --> 00:13:41,122
- I needed to talk to someone
- who could tell me more about
- 277
- 00:13:41,147 --> 00:13:43,584
- science and history and time.
- 278
- 00:13:43,684 --> 00:13:46,178
- Since my background is
- in computer science,
- 279
- 00:13:46,231 --> 00:13:48,100
- we met in a place
- we had personally
- 280
- 00:13:48,131 --> 00:13:50,584
- experienced some of that history.
- 281
- 00:13:56,984 --> 00:13:58,289
- As we looked at the exhibit,
- 282
- 00:13:58,321 --> 00:14:00,031
- I was reminded how much smaller
- 283
- 00:14:00,063 --> 00:14:01,922
- and more powerful
- computers have become
- 284
- 00:14:01,947 --> 00:14:04,045
- since I first started using them.
- 285
- 00:14:04,163 --> 00:14:07,344
- Paul said that changing
- assumptions about computers
- 286
- 00:14:07,387 --> 00:14:10,086
- were really a series
- of paradigm shifts.
- 287
- 00:14:10,274 --> 00:14:13,196
- So when I was 19,
- I read Thomas Kuhn's classic.
- 288
- 00:14:13,235 --> 00:14:15,313
- "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions",
- 289
- 00:14:15,338 --> 00:14:18,711
- where he described
- this notion of paradigms.
- 290
- 00:14:18,826 --> 00:14:23,188
- A paradigm is a framework,
- within which you interpret evidence.
- 291
- 00:14:23,253 --> 00:14:26,008
- So really, science isn't
- just about the evidence,
- 292
- 00:14:26,033 --> 00:14:28,525
- it's about how
- you interpret that evidence.
- 293
- 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:29,961
- So, this room for example,
- 294
- 00:14:29,986 --> 00:14:32,484
- we got so-called "minicomputers" here.
- 295
- 00:14:32,523 --> 00:14:34,258
- But really, they're not mini at all,
- 296
- 00:14:34,283 --> 00:14:36,234
- in terms of our current paradigm.
- 297
- 00:14:36,297 --> 00:14:38,320
- - Yeah, today, right?
- - Yeah.
- 298
- 00:14:38,375 --> 00:14:39,797
- - This.
- - Yeah.
- 299
- 00:14:39,836 --> 00:14:40,875
- Right?
- 300
- 00:14:40,945 --> 00:14:44,258
- So really, to understand
- this question of origins
- 301
- 00:14:44,283 --> 00:14:46,002
- you really need to begin
- 302
- 00:14:46,033 --> 00:14:48,289
- by looking at
- the governing paradigms,
- 303
- 00:14:48,314 --> 00:14:51,429
- the two major views
- that we currently have...
- 304
- 00:14:51,502 --> 00:14:54,705
- about the history of life
- and history of the Universe.
- 305
- 00:14:54,783 --> 00:14:55,822
- And what are those?
- 306
- 00:14:55,848 --> 00:14:57,119
- On the one hand,
- we have
- 307
- 00:14:57,144 --> 00:14:58,988
- - the conventional paradigm.
- - Uh-huh.
- 308
- 00:14:59,070 --> 00:15:02,877
- In the conventional paradigm,
- you got deep time.
- 309
- 00:15:02,928 --> 00:15:05,275
- 13.7 billion years
- 310
- 00:15:05,330 --> 00:15:08,127
- along which, this gradual process
- 311
- 00:15:08,162 --> 00:15:10,088
- beginning with primal simplicity,
- 312
- 00:15:10,119 --> 00:15:12,290
- ending in what we see today.
- 313
- 00:15:12,473 --> 00:15:15,324
- All the complexity in life
- has to be built bottom up
- 314
- 00:15:15,348 --> 00:15:17,106
- by strictly physical processes,
- 315
- 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:18,598
- where no mind,
- 316
- 00:15:18,652 --> 00:15:19,724
- no creator,
- 317
- 00:15:19,787 --> 00:15:22,272
- no design is present.
- 318
- 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,816
- The second view,
- we can call, let's say,
- 319
- 00:15:24,841 --> 00:15:27,223
- the historical Genesis paradigm.
- 320
- 00:15:27,285 --> 00:15:31,357
- Everything starts with
- a divine mind, a creator,
- 321
- 00:15:31,382 --> 00:15:35,912
- an intelligence that
- plans and superintends
- 322
- 00:15:35,943 --> 00:15:38,717
- and brings in to existence reality.
- 323
- 00:15:38,795 --> 00:15:42,295
- Events are happening at
- a much more recent time scale.
- 324
- 00:15:42,499 --> 00:15:44,742
- The universe,
- the solar system,
- 325
- 00:15:44,781 --> 00:15:46,586
- our planet,
- life itself,
- 326
- 00:15:46,626 --> 00:15:50,756
- all of that begins fully formed
- as a functioning system.
- 327
- 00:15:50,842 --> 00:15:52,190
- It's not hard to see
- 328
- 00:15:52,215 --> 00:15:54,800
- there is a radical difference
- between those two
- 329
- 00:15:54,857 --> 00:15:57,053
- in terms of time.
- 330
- 00:15:57,123 --> 00:15:59,637
- When we look at the history
- of life on this planet,
- 331
- 00:15:59,662 --> 00:16:01,326
- we got a body of data.
- 332
- 00:16:01,373 --> 00:16:03,943
- But depending on the paradigm
- that one adopts,
- 333
- 00:16:03,967 --> 00:16:07,193
- that data will be interpreted
- in very different ways.
- 334
- 00:16:07,322 --> 00:16:09,857
- It seems that one paradigm is
- 335
- 00:16:09,882 --> 00:16:11,975
- drawing on a history that was
- 336
- 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,803
- - given to us?
- - Yes.
- 337
- 00:16:13,959 --> 00:16:17,818
- And another paradigm is
- constructing that history.
- 338
- 00:16:17,843 --> 00:16:18,928
- Is that how you see that?
- 339
- 00:16:18,953 --> 00:16:21,045
- We have a witness to those events.
- 340
- 00:16:21,108 --> 00:16:23,615
- And that witness is telling us...
- 341
- 00:16:23,662 --> 00:16:24,896
- this is what happened
- 342
- 00:16:24,921 --> 00:16:27,115
- and we have to take that
- into consideration
- 343
- 00:16:27,148 --> 00:16:29,064
- when we evaluate the data.
- 344
- 00:16:29,209 --> 00:16:32,084
- Well, Paul, the,
- the reason has become s...
- 345
- 00:16:32,155 --> 00:16:33,463
- serious.
- 346
- 00:16:33,502 --> 00:16:37,445
- As we're not talking
- about a history of just...
- 347
- 00:16:37,492 --> 00:16:39,593
- boiling water at
- a certain temperature.
- 348
- 00:16:39,618 --> 00:16:41,992
- - Right.
- - We're talking about a history...
- 349
- 00:16:42,130 --> 00:16:45,136
- that deals with the origin
- of the universe;
- 350
- 00:16:45,207 --> 00:16:47,753
- it deals with the origin of life,
- 351
- 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:49,831
- the origin of humanity,
- 352
- 00:16:49,902 --> 00:16:53,134
- the origin of sin and
- why there is evil in the world,
- 353
- 00:16:53,173 --> 00:16:55,869
- the origin of geological formations
- 354
- 00:16:55,894 --> 00:16:57,479
- - that we have around us,
- - Yeah.
- 355
- 00:16:57,556 --> 00:16:58,884
- the origin of language.
- 356
- 00:16:58,923 --> 00:17:02,376
- I mean, this is a history
- that is not minor.
- 357
- 00:17:02,447 --> 00:17:03,625
- - Yeah.
- - This is dealing with
- 358
- 00:17:03,650 --> 00:17:06,073
- major, major elements of humanity
- 359
- 00:17:06,104 --> 00:17:07,441
- - and where we are today.
- - Yeah.
- 360
- 00:17:07,472 --> 00:17:10,620
- You're talking about the origins
- of literally everything.
- 361
- 00:17:10,698 --> 00:17:12,779
- And I think,
- if we zoom out from that
- 362
- 00:17:12,818 --> 00:17:15,060
- and say, well,
- "what really is the difference
- 363
- 00:17:15,099 --> 00:17:16,732
- between these two paradigms?"
- 364
- 00:17:16,763 --> 00:17:18,060
- It isn't a question of...
- 365
- 00:17:18,105 --> 00:17:21,359
- science on the one hand
- versus religion on the other.
- 366
- 00:17:21,453 --> 00:17:23,632
- Because both of them are scientific
- 367
- 00:17:23,663 --> 00:17:26,781
- in the sense of looking at
- the common body of data.
- 368
- 00:17:26,890 --> 00:17:28,709
- Really, at the deepest level,
- 369
- 00:17:28,741 --> 00:17:32,280
- the difference is two
- competing views of history.
- 370
- 00:17:32,397 --> 00:17:36,069
- What is the true history
- of our cosmos?
- 371
- 00:17:36,678 --> 00:17:38,842
- That does seem
- to be the real question.
- 372
- 00:17:38,904 --> 00:17:40,592
- What is our true history?
- 373
- 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:42,561
- What actually happened?
- 374
- 00:17:42,706 --> 00:17:45,709
- The conflict is not between
- two views of science,
- 375
- 00:17:45,755 --> 00:17:48,584
- but between two competing views of history.
- 376
- 00:17:48,784 --> 00:17:50,608
- Since Genesis was written in Hebrew,
- 377
- 00:17:50,633 --> 00:17:53,069
- I wanted to talk to Hebrew expert.
- 378
- 00:17:53,140 --> 00:17:56,280
- What was actually
- in the original text?
- 379
- 00:18:04,861 --> 00:18:08,221
- The first word in Genesis is "Braichit".
- 380
- 00:18:08,246 --> 00:18:09,278
- Braichit uh, uh.
- 381
- 00:18:09,312 --> 00:18:12,853
- Genesis 1:1 is Braichit...
- 382
- 00:18:12,892 --> 00:18:16,150
- So, this is the beginning
- of the Toledot of uh, of Noah.
- 383
- 00:18:16,181 --> 00:18:18,722
- Just think that word Toledot
- is a very interesting word.
- 384
- 00:18:18,747 --> 00:18:20,613
- Translated, sometimes, as "genealogy".
- 385
- 00:18:20,637 --> 00:18:22,630
- Sometimes, it's translated "history".
- 386
- 00:18:22,761 --> 00:18:24,410
- And what follows then...
- 387
- 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,488
- - is the account of the Flood.
- - Uh-huh.
- 388
- 00:18:26,566 --> 00:18:28,005
- Steve, it seems that...
- 389
- 00:18:28,036 --> 00:18:31,381
- there is a lot of
- history in the Bible.
- 390
- 00:18:31,466 --> 00:18:32,890
- Is that how you see it?
- Is...
- 391
- 00:18:32,915 --> 00:18:33,960
- Oh, absolutely.
- 392
- 00:18:34,007 --> 00:18:37,484
- In, in fact, the first thing is,
- it is an accurate historical account.
- 393
- 00:18:37,509 --> 00:18:38,531
- Uh-huh.
- 394
- 00:18:38,570 --> 00:18:42,218
- The presentation is such uh,
- in, in the perspective of writers...
- 395
- 00:18:42,243 --> 00:18:45,651
- that they believe they were
- talking about real events.
- 396
- 00:18:45,683 --> 00:18:48,058
- - Okay. In...
- - It's very, it's very obvious that...
- 397
- 00:18:48,112 --> 00:18:49,792
- because of the way in which...
- 398
- 00:18:49,847 --> 00:18:53,214
- uh, they insisted
- the next generation learn...
- 399
- 00:18:53,245 --> 00:18:54,972
- - you know, learn their history.
- - Uh-huh.
- 400
- 00:18:55,035 --> 00:18:58,292
- When you look at these
- early chapters in Genesis,
- 401
- 00:18:58,347 --> 00:18:59,448
- what do you see?
- 402
- 00:18:59,479 --> 00:19:01,081
- Can you take us through this?
- 403
- 00:19:01,112 --> 00:19:02,136
- It starts with:
- 404
- 00:19:02,161 --> 00:19:04,259
- In the beginning God created
- the heaven and the earth.
- 405
- 00:19:04,284 --> 00:19:06,796
- There's, there's no word
- in the Hebrew for Universe.
- 406
- 00:19:06,821 --> 00:19:08,268
- This means,
- He created everything.
- 407
- 00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:09,315
- - Uh-huh.
- - And then...
- 408
- 00:19:09,340 --> 00:19:11,690
- the next thing we find
- in Genesis 1:2...
- 409
- 00:19:11,745 --> 00:19:13,730
- uh, we, we find a waterball...
- 410
- 00:19:13,776 --> 00:19:16,034
- - that is in space.
- - Uh-huh.
- 411
- 00:19:16,065 --> 00:19:19,573
- God, in the subsequent days,
- is going to fill that universe.
- 412
- 00:19:19,604 --> 00:19:21,745
- You're talking about days here.
- 413
- 00:19:21,820 --> 00:19:23,698
- Do you see these as literal days?
- 414
- 00:19:23,723 --> 00:19:25,558
- Is that what the text is telling us?
- 415
- 00:19:25,583 --> 00:19:27,667
- Or, you know what
- other people think,
- 416
- 00:19:27,692 --> 00:19:29,729
- that this, this is just a poetic
- 417
- 00:19:29,761 --> 00:19:32,097
- - uh, different point of view?
- - Well, first of all, it's not poetry.
- 418
- 00:19:32,122 --> 00:19:36,290
- The world greatest Hebraists
- all affirm that this is the narrative.
- 419
- 00:19:36,326 --> 00:19:37,351
- Uh-huh.
- 420
- 00:19:37,376 --> 00:19:40,967
- Uh, and uh, they, they say that,
- that one of the unique features...
- 421
- 00:19:41,046 --> 00:19:43,633
- of, of the Genesis account...
- 422
- 00:19:43,688 --> 00:19:45,314
- of creation...
- 423
- 00:19:45,345 --> 00:19:46,353
- and the Flood,
- 424
- 00:19:46,384 --> 00:19:47,519
- is that they are narratives.
- 425
- 00:19:47,544 --> 00:19:49,097
- Because the ancient Near East,
- 426
- 00:19:49,126 --> 00:19:51,243
- they are done in epic poetry.
- 427
- 00:19:51,268 --> 00:19:52,548
- Which is very different.
- 428
- 00:19:52,595 --> 00:19:53,933
- And here we have...
- 429
- 00:19:54,019 --> 00:19:57,254
- a narrative to indicate
- that this is historical.
- 430
- 00:19:57,415 --> 00:20:01,230
- What that means is that the,
- you should understand the words...
- 431
- 00:20:01,277 --> 00:20:04,347
- the what, the normal way in which
- these Hebrew words were understood.
- 432
- 00:20:04,372 --> 00:20:05,394
- The word "yom",...
- 433
- 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,628
- it means "day".
- 434
- 00:20:07,757 --> 00:20:09,745
- Uh, the foundation of its usage...
- 435
- 00:20:09,785 --> 00:20:11,361
- is what we mean by a day.
- 436
- 00:20:11,386 --> 00:20:12,878
- It's a 24-hour day.
- 437
- 00:20:13,026 --> 00:20:15,798
- The only way you'd want it to mean
- a long, longer period of time...
- 438
- 00:20:15,833 --> 00:20:17,933
- is if, as if you impose...
- 439
- 00:20:17,996 --> 00:20:20,870
- an alien uh, concept...
- 440
- 00:20:20,928 --> 00:20:22,116
- - to the text.
- - Uh-huh.
- 441
- 00:20:22,154 --> 00:20:25,569
- And say, well, I think that,
- that these are ages.
- 442
- 00:20:25,639 --> 00:20:27,522
- And therefore,
- "yom" has to mean ages.
- 443
- 00:20:27,565 --> 00:20:29,471
- What you have to do
- is start with the text.
- 444
- 00:20:29,496 --> 00:20:30,151
- Yeah.
- 445
- 00:20:30,182 --> 00:20:32,432
- If we start with the text,
- "yom" means day.
- 446
- 00:20:32,486 --> 00:20:34,176
- So when we come to...
- 447
- 00:20:34,231 --> 00:20:37,950
- uh, the passage that
- talks about the creation of...
- 448
- 00:20:38,019 --> 00:20:40,308
- - of Adam and Eve,
- - Uh-huh, yeah.
- 449
- 00:20:40,332 --> 00:20:44,553
- um, you're seeing that
- as a clear historical event...
- 450
- 00:20:44,578 --> 00:20:46,475
- which would stand
- in direct opposition
- 451
- 00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:49,434
- to the conventional paradigm
- that, that man evolved off
- 452
- 00:20:49,459 --> 00:20:51,947
- of a long, long process.
- 453
- 00:20:52,154 --> 00:20:53,830
- The biblical text...
- 454
- 00:20:53,979 --> 00:20:56,033
- is not compatible...
- 455
- 00:20:56,081 --> 00:20:57,385
- - with the standard...
- - Hmm.
- 456
- 00:20:57,424 --> 00:20:59,268
- uh, the conventional paradigm.
- 457
- 00:20:59,487 --> 00:21:03,117
- The Bible teaches us that
- the Lord God formed man.
- 458
- 00:21:03,161 --> 00:21:05,611
- Artistically breeding
- in the breath of life,
- 459
- 00:21:05,642 --> 00:21:07,049
- created man in His image.
- 460
- 00:21:07,108 --> 00:21:08,971
- And then, of course,
- woman is created.
- 461
- 00:21:09,007 --> 00:21:10,119
- We have marriage.
- 462
- 00:21:10,154 --> 00:21:11,588
- Uh, we have the fall.
- 463
- 00:21:11,730 --> 00:21:14,932
- And then in Noah genealogy,
- we have the entire Flood account.
- 464
- 00:21:15,021 --> 00:21:16,751
- And the Flood,
- is it a global flood?
- 465
- 00:21:16,775 --> 00:21:17,593
- Well, I mean...
- 466
- 00:21:17,618 --> 00:21:20,001
- I don't know how many times,
- I think, 35 times or so,
- 467
- 00:21:20,056 --> 00:21:23,174
- the word "kol", which is "all",
- occurs in the Flood narrative.
- 468
- 00:21:23,275 --> 00:21:25,354
- Uh, if this is a judgment on mankind,
- 469
- 00:21:25,408 --> 00:21:27,221
- then it has to be global.
- 470
- 00:21:27,275 --> 00:21:28,949
- We continue through these...
- 471
- 00:21:28,980 --> 00:21:31,809
- first eleven chapters of Genesis,
- we come to chapter ten,...
- 472
- 00:21:31,910 --> 00:21:34,295
- which is called, which is called
- the table of nations,
- 473
- 00:21:34,334 --> 00:21:35,779
- which are the sons of Noah.
- 474
- 00:21:35,818 --> 00:21:37,670
- Uh, it mentions in that chapter...
- 475
- 00:21:37,695 --> 00:21:41,216
- that the people are in their
- different nations and their languages.
- 476
- 00:21:41,246 --> 00:21:44,123
- So Moses goes back
- in Genesis 11:1 thru 9...
- 477
- 00:21:44,153 --> 00:21:46,943
- and explains how
- the languages develop.
- 478
- 00:21:47,019 --> 00:21:50,285
- And so we come to
- the Toledot of Terah.
- 479
- 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,927
- Uh, and the Toledot of Terah
- is not going to be about Terah.
- 480
- 00:21:53,954 --> 00:21:56,677
- It's going to be about
- his famous son,...
- 481
- 00:21:56,733 --> 00:21:58,052
- - Abraham.
- - Uh-huh.
- 482
- 00:21:58,130 --> 00:22:00,756
- It just seems so apparent that...
- 483
- 00:22:00,803 --> 00:22:02,577
- that there is,
- there is no disconnect
- 484
- 00:22:02,602 --> 00:22:05,208
- between all of that and everything
- that we see in the beginning.
- 485
- 00:22:05,233 --> 00:22:10,225
- It's, it's, it's just one long
- historical narrative, is it not?
- 486
- 00:22:10,264 --> 00:22:11,772
- It, it is.
- As a matter of fact,
- 487
- 00:22:11,826 --> 00:22:14,654
- the ge, the genealogy
- form the structure,
- 488
- 00:22:14,722 --> 00:22:16,217
- uh, not just for Genesis,
- 489
- 00:22:16,264 --> 00:22:18,730
- but the, the narratives are
- embedded in the genealogies.
- 490
- 00:22:18,765 --> 00:22:21,685
- The genealogies are picked up
- and actually call the Toledot...
- 491
- 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:22,795
- in the book of Ruth...
- 492
- 00:22:22,858 --> 00:22:26,155
- to establish that David is
- a descendant of Judah.
- 493
- 00:22:26,209 --> 00:22:29,158
- Which is required by Jacob prophecy.
- 494
- 00:22:29,254 --> 00:22:31,376
- And then we move in
- to the New Testament...
- 495
- 00:22:31,472 --> 00:22:33,572
- How is the pedigree of Jesus established?
- 496
- 00:22:33,597 --> 00:22:35,134
- With, with two genealogies:
- 497
- 00:22:35,197 --> 00:22:38,244
- One going back
- through, uh, Mary's line...
- 498
- 00:22:38,302 --> 00:22:39,911
- all the way back to Adam.
- 499
- 00:22:40,062 --> 00:22:43,341
- Steve, in the light of all this
- that we, that we have seen,
- 500
- 00:22:43,379 --> 00:22:47,669
- um, how important is
- the historical narrative
- 501
- 00:22:47,710 --> 00:22:49,342
- that we find throughout Genesis,
- 502
- 00:22:49,373 --> 00:22:52,513
- including all of the, uh,
- the generations that are led up?
- 503
- 00:22:52,540 --> 00:22:56,647
- How important is that to Christianity?
- 504
- 00:22:57,101 --> 00:23:00,064
- It shows that Christianity
- has a historical basis.
- 505
- 00:23:00,103 --> 00:23:01,329
- It's what the Scriptures say
- 506
- 00:23:01,354 --> 00:23:05,517
- and the scriptures represent
- actual historical, uh, data.
- 507
- 00:23:05,573 --> 00:23:09,393
- So Christianity is,
- is not a leap in the dark.
- 508
- 00:23:09,473 --> 00:23:14,299
- It is an understanding that has
- very strong historical bases,...
- 509
- 00:23:14,482 --> 00:23:18,190
- and that our Savior
- is also our Creator.
- 510
- 00:23:19,746 --> 00:23:22,823
- These genealogies are
- incredibly important.
- 511
- 00:23:22,941 --> 00:23:25,372
- If Jesus is descended from Adam,
- 512
- 00:23:25,430 --> 00:23:28,276
- and Adam was created
- on the sixth day of creation,
- 513
- 00:23:28,350 --> 00:23:30,854
- then the Earth can't be very old.
- 514
- 00:23:30,975 --> 00:23:33,932
- So where do the millions
- of years come from?
- 515
- 00:23:34,666 --> 00:23:36,446
- I met a geologist at a place
- 516
- 00:23:36,471 --> 00:23:39,549
- where he said we could
- understand this better.
- 517
- 00:23:45,260 --> 00:23:46,269
- You see there...
- 518
- 00:23:46,301 --> 00:23:48,598
- - the quietness expands?
- - Yup.
- 519
- 00:23:48,652 --> 00:23:50,956
- Nothing to disturb you.
- 520
- 00:23:51,631 --> 00:23:55,175
- Yet you got the reminder that
- there was an explosive in the past.
- 521
- 00:23:55,348 --> 00:23:58,668
- There was a volcano back here,
- the cinder cone volcano.
- 522
- 00:23:58,802 --> 00:24:00,785
- And it built steps this lava flow
- 523
- 00:24:00,818 --> 00:24:03,309
- that spilled out
- across this country side.
- 524
- 00:24:03,450 --> 00:24:06,012
- Just a huge amount of,
- of basaltic lava.
- 525
- 00:24:06,037 --> 00:24:08,375
- Yeah, but it's actually small, uh,
- 526
- 00:24:08,441 --> 00:24:11,711
- compared to the lava flows
- that we see in many places.
- 527
- 00:24:11,776 --> 00:24:15,638
- And there're, there're some like
- thousand of these volcanoes around here.
- 528
- 00:24:15,663 --> 00:24:17,171
- And the little one
- behind us here,...
- 529
- 00:24:17,214 --> 00:24:19,288
- we call that a cinder cone volcano.
- 530
- 00:24:19,313 --> 00:24:21,520
- - You call that "a little one"?
- - Yeah, well, it is.
- 531
- 00:24:21,548 --> 00:24:23,339
- I mean, these volcanoes are small.
- 532
- 00:24:23,364 --> 00:24:26,612
- Mount St. Helens in 1980
- when it erupted, ok?
- 533
- 00:24:26,663 --> 00:24:29,656
- The top two and a half thousand feet
- of the volcano blew off,
- 534
- 00:24:29,693 --> 00:24:33,195
- but that was small compared
- to historical eruptions.
- 535
- 00:24:33,376 --> 00:24:35,448
- We can go back a little further
- 536
- 00:24:35,473 --> 00:24:37,378
- to the great Yellowstone eruption,
- 537
- 00:24:37,453 --> 00:24:40,737
- and some of the volcanic ash
- was down in Texas.
- 538
- 00:24:40,777 --> 00:24:42,605
- It blew that far away.
- 539
- 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,792
- You think about
- lava flows in India...
- 540
- 00:24:45,927 --> 00:24:49,497
- where you have an accumulation
- up about to a thousand feet...
- 541
- 00:24:49,528 --> 00:24:52,374
- over an area a third
- of the size of the...
- 542
- 00:24:52,411 --> 00:24:54,339
- subcontinent of India.
- 543
- 00:24:54,514 --> 00:24:57,513
- What we see in the present
- is really only...
- 544
- 00:24:57,558 --> 00:25:01,044
- a, a minuscule by comparison
- to what we've seen in the past.
- 545
- 00:25:01,083 --> 00:25:04,354
- And that's telling us something
- about the historic past.
- 546
- 00:25:04,467 --> 00:25:09,724
- We can't use present day rates
- of these processes to understand...
- 547
- 00:25:09,771 --> 00:25:13,820
- how quickly and how majestically,
- in terms of scale,...
- 548
- 00:25:13,867 --> 00:25:16,203
- the geological record accumulated.
- 549
- 00:25:16,335 --> 00:25:19,340
- Well, that is the point
- that has brought me to you.
- 550
- 00:25:19,372 --> 00:25:20,145
- - Because,
- - Uh-huh.
- 551
- 00:25:20,184 --> 00:25:23,121
- how do we determine
- the age of these rocks?
- 552
- 00:25:23,164 --> 00:25:24,659
- Well, the important...
- 553
- 00:25:24,676 --> 00:25:28,121
- first thing is to recognize
- that this lava flow is uh,
- 554
- 00:25:28,176 --> 00:25:29,660
- in a sense,
- an instant in time.
- 555
- 00:25:29,685 --> 00:25:30,826
- It's an event.
- 556
- 00:25:30,978 --> 00:25:32,832
- And when that's molten,...
- 557
- 00:25:32,926 --> 00:25:34,504
- you got all the different elements
- 558
- 00:25:34,551 --> 00:25:37,316
- that uh, uh, come out
- of the volcano all mixed up.
- 559
- 00:25:37,474 --> 00:25:39,592
- And the rock starts to crystallize.
- 560
- 00:25:39,682 --> 00:25:42,295
- Any of those atoms
- that are radioactive,...
- 561
- 00:25:42,409 --> 00:25:44,490
- they now start to accumulate...
- 562
- 00:25:44,552 --> 00:25:47,406
- what we call "the daughter products",
- the decay products.
- 563
- 00:25:47,534 --> 00:25:51,786
- Now, the point is that,
- that this rate of decay is so slow...
- 564
- 00:25:51,827 --> 00:25:53,632
- when we measure in the present...
- 565
- 00:25:53,757 --> 00:25:56,757
- that uh, you know,
- it takes millions of years...
- 566
- 00:25:56,827 --> 00:25:59,829
- for parent atoms to decay
- to daughter atoms.
- 567
- 00:25:59,854 --> 00:26:02,868
- And so, that's ultimately where
- the millions of years come from.
- 568
- 00:26:02,893 --> 00:26:06,087
- The fact that the decay rates
- in the present are slow.
- 569
- 00:26:06,164 --> 00:26:07,821
- But we would say
- that the present...
- 570
- 00:26:07,861 --> 00:26:09,992
- is not really the key to the past,
- 571
- 00:26:10,017 --> 00:26:11,423
- because, obviously,...
- 572
- 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,535
- the past holds
- some massive, massive
- 573
- 00:26:14,559 --> 00:26:16,121
- - catastrophic events...
- - Right.
- 574
- 00:26:16,152 --> 00:26:17,314
- that are not going on today.
- 575
- 00:26:17,339 --> 00:26:18,575
- In fact, the Bible would say that
- 576
- 00:26:18,607 --> 00:26:20,419
- - the past is the key to the present.
- - Mmm.
- 577
- 00:26:20,450 --> 00:26:23,471
- If you want us, want to understand
- why the way the world is today,...
- 578
- 00:26:23,506 --> 00:26:25,953
- you got to understand
- what happened in the past.
- 579
- 00:26:26,024 --> 00:26:27,733
- So we got lots of hints...
- 580
- 00:26:27,804 --> 00:26:32,382
- that geological processes haven't been
- at constant rates through time.
- 581
- 00:26:32,465 --> 00:26:34,218
- And we have other hints...
- 582
- 00:26:34,303 --> 00:26:37,554
- that the, the decay rates
- might not have been constant.
- 583
- 00:26:37,808 --> 00:26:41,259
- So we've taken rock samples
- from a number of places.
- 584
- 00:26:41,311 --> 00:26:44,705
- Lots of samples in the Grand Canyon,
- in each of these rock layers.
- 585
- 00:26:44,786 --> 00:26:46,384
- I've done it in New Zealand.
- 586
- 00:26:46,431 --> 00:26:48,556
- We've done in other parts of the world.
- 587
- 00:26:48,641 --> 00:26:51,259
- And what we've done is
- we submitted...
- 588
- 00:26:51,377 --> 00:26:53,103
- the same samples...
- 589
- 00:26:53,155 --> 00:26:55,556
- to more than one
- of these dating methods.
- 590
- 00:26:55,616 --> 00:26:57,124
- And so,
- what we found is
- 591
- 00:26:57,162 --> 00:26:59,451
- on the same samples
- with more than one method,
- 592
- 00:26:59,490 --> 00:27:01,303
- we were getting ages
- that were different
- 593
- 00:27:01,328 --> 00:27:02,708
- by hundreds of millions of years,
- 594
- 00:27:02,733 --> 00:27:03,459
- - even...
- - Hmm.
- 595
- 00:27:03,486 --> 00:27:05,860
- even a billion years
- in some instances.
- 596
- 00:27:06,045 --> 00:27:10,304
- We're seeing huge differences
- by using different, different methods.
- 597
- 00:27:10,336 --> 00:27:13,765
- Well, if, if, if there is
- that kind of difference
- 598
- 00:27:13,790 --> 00:27:16,281
- between all of these
- dating method, methods...
- 599
- 00:27:16,357 --> 00:27:18,281
- then that would seems
- to confirm the fact
- 600
- 00:27:18,308 --> 00:27:20,140
- that we have
- an open system here,
- 601
- 00:27:20,165 --> 00:27:20,984
- - Correct.
- - not closed one.
- 602
- 00:27:21,018 --> 00:27:22,711
- And if we have an open system,
- 603
- 00:27:22,750 --> 00:27:24,570
- that means,
- we can't trust it...
- 604
- 00:27:24,646 --> 00:27:27,289
- uh, to give us
- dependable dates...
- 605
- 00:27:27,375 --> 00:27:28,890
- for, for those rocks.
- 606
- 00:27:28,929 --> 00:27:32,359
- And that changes the whole thinking
- about the history of the Earth.
- 607
- 00:27:32,421 --> 00:27:34,296
- Because suddenly now,
- 608
- 00:27:34,339 --> 00:27:37,225
- these, these radioactive
- clocks are not reliable.
- 609
- 00:27:37,275 --> 00:27:40,554
- Uh, we got evidence that
- rates were faster in the past.
- 610
- 00:27:40,613 --> 00:27:44,335
- Suddenly, we, we might not be
- thinking in terms of millions of years.
- 611
- 00:27:44,369 --> 00:27:46,569
- We might be thinking
- in terms of a history...
- 612
- 00:27:46,616 --> 00:27:48,554
- that is much more
- much shorter.
- 613
- 00:27:48,730 --> 00:27:51,921
- But you were saying that
- this kind of evidence...
- 614
- 00:27:51,975 --> 00:27:54,600
- uh, is in the open literature now.
- 615
- 00:27:54,625 --> 00:27:55,632
- Yes, yes.
- 616
- 00:27:55,679 --> 00:27:57,667
- Why, why is it not making impact?
- 617
- 00:27:57,692 --> 00:27:59,468
- Well, I, I, I've been asked that
- 618
- 00:27:59,493 --> 00:28:02,499
- when I've spoken in universities'
- geology departments.
- 619
- 00:28:02,575 --> 00:28:04,436
- And the answer is: Because...
- 620
- 00:28:04,468 --> 00:28:07,405
- there is a commitment
- to the millions of years.
- 621
- 00:28:07,444 --> 00:28:11,093
- And so, once people
- get lock in to that focus...
- 622
- 00:28:11,186 --> 00:28:13,507
- anything outside
- their field of view that...
- 623
- 00:28:13,558 --> 00:28:15,452
- conflicts with that focus...
- 624
- 00:28:15,562 --> 00:28:17,898
- uh, is, is marginalized.
- 625
- 00:28:17,944 --> 00:28:20,850
- And the reason why
- the millions of years are important,
- 626
- 00:28:20,981 --> 00:28:25,046
- If, if, if we go back in history
- of, of scientific thought,
- 627
- 00:28:25,154 --> 00:28:27,061
- Charles Lyell in England...
- 628
- 00:28:27,117 --> 00:28:31,343
- proposed millions of years and
- they multiplied the ages for the rocks.
- 629
- 00:28:31,499 --> 00:28:35,108
- And that was the foundation
- on which Charles Darwin built.
- 630
- 00:28:35,153 --> 00:28:37,382
- In fact, he read Charles Lyell's book...
- 631
- 00:28:37,452 --> 00:28:40,912
- and was convinced of the millions
- of years of geological evolution,
- 632
- 00:28:40,937 --> 00:28:43,694
- so he could say,
- now given enough time...
- 633
- 00:28:43,741 --> 00:28:45,556
- what we now see
- happening in the present,
- 634
- 00:28:45,581 --> 00:28:47,750
- we might not only see
- small changes in the present,
- 635
- 00:28:47,815 --> 00:28:49,127
- given millions of years,
- 636
- 00:28:49,166 --> 00:28:51,564
- the small changes can
- add up to big changes.
- 637
- 00:28:51,685 --> 00:28:55,572
- And so, if you want to have a way
- of looking at the hist of history...
- 638
- 00:28:55,597 --> 00:28:58,383
- that uh, says that
- we got here by chance,
- 639
- 00:28:58,408 --> 00:29:01,019
- random processes
- over millions of years,...
- 640
- 00:29:01,051 --> 00:29:03,377
- then you got to have rocks
- that are millions of years old.
- 641
- 00:29:03,402 --> 00:29:05,494
- Otherwise, you'd
- undermine that whole...
- 642
- 00:29:05,541 --> 00:29:08,439
- that whole foundation
- of that view of the history.
- 643
- 00:29:08,464 --> 00:29:11,106
- So time becomes
- the critical element
- 644
- 00:29:11,139 --> 00:29:12,560
- - Yes.
- - for the conventional paradigm,
- 645
- 00:29:12,591 --> 00:29:16,356
- - Exactly.
- - and that time has to be a deep time.
- 646
- 00:29:18,193 --> 00:29:20,913
- Andrew said when
- you study the rock formations,
- 647
- 00:29:20,989 --> 00:29:25,826
- they show evidence of a young earth
- transformed by a global catastrophe.
- 648
- 00:29:25,995 --> 00:29:29,772
- So he took me south to Sedona
- to see it for myself.
- 649
- 00:29:31,649 --> 00:29:33,850
- The important thing
- to note is that uh...
- 650
- 00:29:33,875 --> 00:29:37,155
- this landscape is actually very stable.
- 651
- 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,412
- There was lots of erosion in the past...
- 652
- 00:29:39,444 --> 00:29:40,999
- - Oh, yeah.
- - to carve out this...
- 653
- 00:29:41,053 --> 00:29:42,514
- - whole terrain.
- - Uh-huh.
- 654
- 00:29:42,556 --> 00:29:43,983
- But those cliffs...
- 655
- 00:29:44,061 --> 00:29:46,120
- and, and the valley floor
- are very stable,
- 656
- 00:29:46,144 --> 00:29:48,277
- which is why you got
- the vegetation.
- 657
- 00:29:48,349 --> 00:29:50,803
- Today, everything is much,
- much quieter.
- 658
- 00:29:50,908 --> 00:29:54,332
- Today's processes are extremely slow.
- 659
- 00:29:54,455 --> 00:29:57,090
- But they can't explain
- how we got this erosion,
- 660
- 00:29:57,137 --> 00:29:58,418
- how we got these layers,
- 661
- 00:29:58,457 --> 00:30:00,387
- how we got these cliffs.
- 662
- 00:30:00,716 --> 00:30:02,082
- Alright. So,...
- 663
- 00:30:02,121 --> 00:30:05,176
- you wanted to come here
- because you see evidence...
- 664
- 00:30:05,239 --> 00:30:07,019
- uh, of a young Earth...
- 665
- 00:30:07,075 --> 00:30:08,972
- uh, because of, of what's here.
- 666
- 00:30:08,997 --> 00:30:10,496
- - What do you see?
- - Yes. Well,...
- 667
- 00:30:10,551 --> 00:30:13,980
- the first thing we've noticed
- is the extent of these layers.
- 668
- 00:30:14,055 --> 00:30:16,004
- It's like a stack of pancakes.
- 669
- 00:30:16,051 --> 00:30:17,918
- For example, the red unit
- 670
- 00:30:17,965 --> 00:30:19,340
- - that goes all the way across
- - Uh-huh.
- 671
- 00:30:19,365 --> 00:30:20,527
- our field of view,
- 672
- 00:30:20,582 --> 00:30:22,592
- that's the Schnebly Hill Formation.
- 673
- 00:30:22,631 --> 00:30:23,717
- And above that,
- 674
- 00:30:23,749 --> 00:30:25,671
- you can see the first white unit,
- 675
- 00:30:25,724 --> 00:30:27,584
- it's Coconino Sandstone.
- 676
- 00:30:27,630 --> 00:30:30,834
- And above that, you got
- the Toroweap at the horizon,
- 677
- 00:30:30,874 --> 00:30:32,802
- you got the Kaibab limestone,
- 678
- 00:30:32,827 --> 00:30:35,296
- which is the, the rim rock
- of the Grand Canyon.
- 679
- 00:30:35,371 --> 00:30:37,069
- And, you know,
- here we are,...
- 680
- 00:30:37,116 --> 00:30:39,468
- 70 more miles from
- the Grand Canyon
- 681
- 00:30:39,493 --> 00:30:41,647
- - and these layers are still here.
- - Yeah.
- 682
- 00:30:41,789 --> 00:30:43,987
- It's almost hard to imagine
- 683
- 00:30:44,035 --> 00:30:48,033
- the volume of material
- that that represents.
- 684
- 00:30:48,058 --> 00:30:48,830
- Yes.
- 685
- 00:30:48,855 --> 00:30:50,761
- Take the Coconino sandstone,
- 686
- 00:30:50,841 --> 00:30:52,515
- We can trace it from here
- 687
- 00:30:52,594 --> 00:30:54,406
- right across New Mexico,
- 688
- 00:30:54,437 --> 00:30:55,547
- Colorado,
- 689
- 00:30:55,585 --> 00:30:58,920
- right over towards Kansas
- and Oklahoma, even in Texas.
- 690
- 00:30:58,945 --> 00:31:01,275
- We're talking at least
- 200,000 square miles...
- 691
- 00:31:01,314 --> 00:31:03,275
- - Mmm.
- - for this one rock unit...
- 692
- 00:31:03,306 --> 00:31:06,392
- that's consistant for miles
- after miles after miles.
- 693
- 00:31:06,446 --> 00:31:08,907
- That's not the scale
- that we see today,
- 694
- 00:31:08,939 --> 00:31:10,892
- with localized sedimentation.
- 695
- 00:31:10,964 --> 00:31:13,525
- And to get a flat line like this...
- 696
- 00:31:13,580 --> 00:31:15,627
- over such a large area,
- 697
- 00:31:15,690 --> 00:31:18,259
- it's like you have to make
- your pancake all at once
- 698
- 00:31:18,284 --> 00:31:19,744
- - very rapidely.
- - Uh-huh.
- 699
- 00:31:19,769 --> 00:31:23,672
- And so, these layers show
- evidence of rapid sedimentation,
- 700
- 00:31:23,731 --> 00:31:25,810
- the, the extension of these layers.
- 701
- 00:31:25,912 --> 00:31:26,919
- Well, Andrew,
- 702
- 00:31:26,959 --> 00:31:29,834
- you, you were talking about
- that red formation, but...
- 703
- 00:31:29,871 --> 00:31:31,459
- that doesn't sound familiar to me.
- 704
- 00:31:31,484 --> 00:31:33,154
- No, that's the Schnebly Hill Formation.
- 705
- 00:31:33,185 --> 00:31:35,021
- That's not in the Grand Canyon.
- 706
- 00:31:35,108 --> 00:31:37,935
- In the Grand Canyon,
- we go from Coconino...
- 707
- 00:31:37,998 --> 00:31:39,639
- into the Hermit formation.
- 708
- 00:31:39,695 --> 00:31:41,755
- There's no face boundary,...
- 709
- 00:31:41,854 --> 00:31:44,802
- and there's no evidence
- of erosion there.
- 710
- 00:31:44,889 --> 00:31:48,443
- Which means that the Hermit
- formation was rapidly deposited...
- 711
- 00:31:48,507 --> 00:31:51,794
- and then immediately the Coconino
- that was deposited on top of it.
- 712
- 00:31:51,842 --> 00:31:52,920
- But here,...
- 713
- 00:31:52,966 --> 00:31:55,701
- we come 70 miles
- from the Grand Canyon...
- 714
- 00:31:55,771 --> 00:31:58,959
- and we got this Schnebly Hill
- formation between...
- 715
- 00:31:59,005 --> 00:32:01,107
- - the Coconino and the Hermit.
- - Hmm.
- 716
- 00:32:01,176 --> 00:32:02,951
- And, and this Schnebly Hill formation,
- 717
- 00:32:02,982 --> 00:32:05,022
- 800 to 1,000 feet thick,...
- 718
- 00:32:05,060 --> 00:32:08,304
- over an area of a, a,
- a 1,000 square miles,...
- 719
- 00:32:08,380 --> 00:32:10,804
- had to have been formed very rapidly.
- 720
- 00:32:10,833 --> 00:32:13,389
- If, if, if that took millions of years,
- 721
- 00:32:13,487 --> 00:32:15,326
- we ought to see millions
- of years of evidence
- 722
- 00:32:15,351 --> 00:32:16,680
- - of millions of years of erosion
- - Uh-huh.
- 723
- 00:32:16,705 --> 00:32:18,203
- - back in the Grand Canyon
- - Uh-huh.
- 724
- 00:32:18,228 --> 00:32:20,369
- at that same boundary.
- We don't.
- 725
- 00:32:20,466 --> 00:32:23,930
- So that means that this Schnebly Hill
- formation in this area...
- 726
- 00:32:23,973 --> 00:32:26,676
- had to form in a matter of hours.
- 727
- 00:32:26,824 --> 00:32:30,191
- So it told you that not only
- there's lack of erosion
- 728
- 00:32:30,216 --> 00:32:32,442
- but there's no time
- between those boundaries.
- 729
- 00:32:32,473 --> 00:32:34,387
- - So the whole sequence of layers
- - Hhh.
- 730
- 00:32:34,443 --> 00:32:36,271
- was very rapidly deposited.
- 731
- 00:32:36,395 --> 00:32:40,130
- So we have this,
- this large extent of layers.
- 732
- 00:32:40,161 --> 00:32:43,973
- We have the lack of erosion
- between the layers.
- 733
- 00:32:44,012 --> 00:32:45,911
- What other evidence do you see?
- 734
- 00:32:45,966 --> 00:32:47,716
- Well, if we look closely,
- 735
- 00:32:47,754 --> 00:32:50,091
- for example,
- the Coconino Sandstone,
- 736
- 00:32:50,204 --> 00:32:52,562
- we see the bedding
- that this bands within
- 737
- 00:32:52,593 --> 00:32:54,233
- - that is, that is sloping.
- - Hhh.
- 738
- 00:32:54,294 --> 00:32:56,187
- We call those cross-beds.
- 739
- 00:32:56,249 --> 00:32:58,093
- What they indicate is that
- 740
- 00:32:58,140 --> 00:33:00,171
- you had underwater sand waves...
- 741
- 00:33:00,210 --> 00:33:01,515
- were moving along.
- 742
- 00:33:01,577 --> 00:33:03,462
- The comparison is in the desert.
- 743
- 00:33:03,517 --> 00:33:06,744
- It is important to recognize that
- there's a difference in the angle...
- 744
- 00:33:06,783 --> 00:33:07,976
- in the desert dune.
- 745
- 00:33:08,001 --> 00:33:12,121
- It is usually 30 to 34 degrees
- of these, these sloping beds.
- 746
- 00:33:12,205 --> 00:33:15,380
- Under water, it's usually
- 25 degrees or less.
- 747
- 00:33:15,415 --> 00:33:17,426
- And Dr. John Whitmore...
- 748
- 00:33:17,488 --> 00:33:21,012
- has combed the hills
- around here with his students...
- 749
- 00:33:21,059 --> 00:33:23,262
- hundreds and hundreds
- of measurements...
- 750
- 00:33:23,293 --> 00:33:25,028
- of these cross-beds.
- 751
- 00:33:25,090 --> 00:33:27,215
- And they all come
- in the range of
- 752
- 00:33:27,254 --> 00:33:29,114
- - 15 to 25 degrees.
- - Hhh.
- 753
- 00:33:29,215 --> 00:33:31,457
- So it was underwater deposition.
- 754
- 00:33:31,527 --> 00:33:34,248
- And so, these layers
- are accumulating
- 755
- 00:33:34,273 --> 00:33:36,857
- in hours, weeks, and,
- and within months,...
- 756
- 00:33:36,912 --> 00:33:39,600
- you got this whole stack
- of pancakes layers...
- 757
- 00:33:39,670 --> 00:33:41,170
- over such wide areas.
- 758
- 00:33:41,216 --> 00:33:43,320
- So it isn't difference in believing
- 759
- 00:33:43,351 --> 00:33:44,961
- in those layers that exist.
- 760
- 00:33:44,986 --> 00:33:46,638
- - Not at all.
- - It's, it's the difference
- 761
- 00:33:46,663 --> 00:33:48,663
- - of time, isn't it?
- - Correct.
- 762
- 00:33:48,688 --> 00:33:51,871
- It's not a question of
- science versus the Bible.
- 763
- 00:33:51,925 --> 00:33:53,913
- When we're talking about
- the Flood paradigm
- 764
- 00:33:53,952 --> 00:33:55,523
- and the conventional paradigm,
- 765
- 00:33:55,566 --> 00:33:58,205
- we're actually talking
- about two different views
- 766
- 00:33:58,230 --> 00:34:00,327
- - of the Earth history.
- - Uh-huh.
- 767
- 00:34:00,805 --> 00:34:03,570
- Those views really are different.
- 768
- 00:34:03,827 --> 00:34:06,536
- Of course, I grew up being taught
- the conventional view
- 769
- 00:34:06,561 --> 00:34:10,234
- with this long ages and
- slow uniform changes.
- 770
- 00:34:10,297 --> 00:34:14,469
- But what was the history
- of the world according to Genesis?
- 771
- 00:34:24,935 --> 00:34:28,036
- Kurt Wise took me from
- one fascinating place to another,...
- 772
- 00:34:28,083 --> 00:34:30,341
- showing me evidence of fossil forests,...
- 773
- 00:34:30,380 --> 00:34:32,927
- explaining the rapid formation of coal,...
- 774
- 00:34:32,997 --> 00:34:37,351
- and talking about the complex
- design of biological systems.
- 775
- 00:34:37,460 --> 00:34:38,788
- Everywhere we turned,
- 776
- 00:34:38,819 --> 00:34:42,616
- he showed me something new
- about the Earth and its history.
- 777
- 00:34:42,743 --> 00:34:47,017
- We ended up at the entrance
- to an old abandoned coal mine.
- 778
- 00:34:47,674 --> 00:34:49,680
- This is leftover remain
- 779
- 00:34:49,705 --> 00:34:51,875
- of the Dayton Coal and Iron Company,
- 780
- 00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:54,611
- built about 100-110 years ago.
- 781
- 00:34:54,689 --> 00:34:56,254
- What's amazing is uh,
- 782
- 00:34:56,279 --> 00:34:59,761
- if, if you didn't know that history,
- and if you look at these rocks,
- 783
- 00:34:59,799 --> 00:35:01,375
- you would think
- they were very ancient.
- 784
- 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:02,744
- In fact, if we were in Greece,
- 785
- 00:35:02,791 --> 00:35:04,931
- you might think
- they're thousands of years old.
- 786
- 00:35:04,987 --> 00:35:08,284
- It's hard to tell just looking
- at the structure itself.
- 787
- 00:35:08,464 --> 00:35:11,191
- Well, Kurt, then I need
- for you to do something,
- 788
- 00:35:11,216 --> 00:35:15,259
- because I know that
- the conventional paradigm...
- 789
- 00:35:15,284 --> 00:35:18,652
- looks back in Earth history
- as a straight line,...
- 790
- 00:35:18,745 --> 00:35:21,917
- a lot of uniform processes
- and so forth.
- 791
- 00:35:22,003 --> 00:35:25,114
- But, the Genesis history
- is telling us that...
- 792
- 00:35:25,153 --> 00:35:27,622
- it's, it's not that uniform.
- 793
- 00:35:27,708 --> 00:35:28,739
- Yes, that's a good point.
- 794
- 00:35:28,778 --> 00:35:30,583
- In 2nd Peter chapter 3,
- 795
- 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:31,726
- it talks about
- 796
- 00:35:31,765 --> 00:35:33,234
- people in the later days saying,
- 797
- 00:35:33,259 --> 00:35:34,705
- "Where is the promise of His coming?
- 798
- 00:35:34,730 --> 00:35:36,501
- For all the things continuing
- as they were
- 799
- 00:35:36,540 --> 00:35:37,845
- from the beginning of creation".
- 800
- 00:35:37,876 --> 00:35:39,453
- - That concept that...
- - Uh-huh, uh-huh.
- 801
- 00:35:39,478 --> 00:35:42,187
- what you see in the present,
- what's happening now,...
- 802
- 00:35:42,257 --> 00:35:44,001
- what's happening
- in the creek down below,
- 803
- 00:35:44,033 --> 00:35:45,851
- what's happening in
- every place on the Earth
- 804
- 00:35:45,876 --> 00:35:47,259
- is the way
- it has always been.
- 805
- 00:35:47,322 --> 00:35:49,511
- It has always been
- for all of Earth history.
- 806
- 00:35:49,574 --> 00:35:50,918
- The passage goes on to say,
- 807
- 00:35:50,957 --> 00:35:52,486
- "For this, they're willingly
- 808
- 00:35:52,511 --> 00:35:53,660
- - ignorant.
- - Uh-huh.
- 809
- 00:35:53,715 --> 00:35:56,463
- They are not just ignorant
- of these truths,
- 810
- 00:35:56,488 --> 00:35:59,074
- they're purposely
- rejecting these truths,
- 811
- 00:35:59,105 --> 00:36:01,302
- and lists of the Creation...
- 812
- 00:36:01,365 --> 00:36:02,467
- and the Flood.
- 813
- 00:36:02,529 --> 00:36:05,492
- These are apparently events,
- according to the Bible,
- 814
- 00:36:05,562 --> 00:36:07,279
- that aren't like the present.
- 815
- 00:36:07,314 --> 00:36:07,992
- Right.
- 816
- 00:36:08,017 --> 00:36:10,837
- And the neat thing is
- that's what we see here.
- 817
- 00:36:10,892 --> 00:36:14,361
- That cliff isn't actually in place.
- 818
- 00:36:14,439 --> 00:36:17,769
- That cliff, it belongs
- about a 1,000 feet up.
- 819
- 00:36:17,810 --> 00:36:20,466
- - It slid down to its current location.
- - Uh-huh.
- 820
- 00:36:20,505 --> 00:36:22,286
- - That's a pretty big bolder.
- - That's huge.
- 821
- 00:36:22,311 --> 00:36:25,434
- Okay now, now, what kind
- of process in the present...
- 822
- 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,235
- slides blocks that big down?
- 823
- 00:36:28,279 --> 00:36:30,774
- - This thing continues for a mile.
- - Uh-huh.
- 824
- 00:36:30,890 --> 00:36:33,375
- - Uh-huh.
- - But inside those rocks...
- 825
- 00:36:33,416 --> 00:36:35,484
- are yet, further evidence
- of an event...
- 826
- 00:36:35,509 --> 00:36:37,556
- before that,
- it's even bigger,
- 827
- 00:36:37,612 --> 00:36:40,682
- - even more unlike the present.
- - Uh-huh.
- 828
- 00:36:40,814 --> 00:36:45,129
- And then, inside those rocks,
- are also fossils of a time period...
- 829
- 00:36:45,183 --> 00:36:46,814
- - that's very different from the present.
- - Uh-huh.
- 830
- 00:36:46,839 --> 00:36:48,604
- So that, according to
- the claim of Scripture
- 831
- 00:36:48,629 --> 00:36:50,386
- and according to
- my own experience...
- 832
- 00:36:50,433 --> 00:36:52,505
- you can't use the present to...
- 833
- 00:36:52,583 --> 00:36:54,708
- to judge the past,
- to understand the past.
- 834
- 00:36:54,733 --> 00:36:57,355
- But if you go all the way back
- to the beginning, you'll realize...
- 835
- 00:36:57,380 --> 00:36:58,849
- that the Bible lays out...
- 836
- 00:36:58,904 --> 00:37:01,390
- what I would call
- epochs of Earth history,
- 837
- 00:37:01,415 --> 00:37:02,834
- - Major occurence of time?
- - periods just,
- 838
- 00:37:02,859 --> 00:37:04,514
- just different things happening
- 839
- 00:37:04,539 --> 00:37:06,183
- during each of these epochs.
- 840
- 00:37:06,218 --> 00:37:08,765
- But if you live in anyone
- of the other epochs,...
- 841
- 00:37:08,821 --> 00:37:11,058
- - you would never understand...
- - Hhh.
- 842
- 00:37:11,104 --> 00:37:13,478
- the previous epoch,
- because they're so different.
- 843
- 00:37:13,603 --> 00:37:16,681
- The first one is
- the creation itself.
- 844
- 00:37:16,775 --> 00:37:20,205
- In six days, God created
- the entire universe.
- 845
- 00:37:20,260 --> 00:37:22,680
- He created the planets and the stars.
- 846
- 00:37:22,705 --> 00:37:26,113
- And He stretched out the universe
- with His outstretch arm.
- 847
- 00:37:26,158 --> 00:37:28,516
- That's obviously not happening today.
- 848
- 00:37:28,541 --> 00:37:30,737
- - Yeah.
- - He's not creating planets.
- 849
- 00:37:30,821 --> 00:37:32,987
- In fact, at the end of that passage,
- 850
- 00:37:33,012 --> 00:37:34,488
- it says He ended...
- 851
- 00:37:34,551 --> 00:37:36,512
- - His creation work.
- - Hhh.
- 852
- 00:37:36,653 --> 00:37:40,147
- And then we move into
- what I call the Edenian Epoch,
- 853
- 00:37:40,264 --> 00:37:43,930
- the period of time when Adam and Eve
- are in the garden of Eden.
- 854
- 00:37:43,969 --> 00:37:46,049
- - And it's very different from the present.
- - Right.
- 855
- 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,172
- We get the impression
- from that passage,
- 856
- 00:37:48,203 --> 00:37:50,539
- for example, that Adam and Eve
- if they had not sinned...
- 857
- 00:37:50,564 --> 00:37:51,680
- would have lived forever.
- 858
- 00:37:51,711 --> 00:37:55,299
- It's hard to even conceive
- of human being living forever.
- 859
- 00:37:55,330 --> 00:37:56,768
- - So it's a different world.
- - True.
- 860
- 00:37:56,793 --> 00:37:58,368
- - Wildly different.
- - Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
- 861
- 00:37:58,395 --> 00:38:00,273
- How long it lasts?
- We do not know.
- 862
- 00:38:00,308 --> 00:38:03,247
- But it suddenly terminated
- with Adam and Eve
- 863
- 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,879
- eating of the tree of
- the knowledge of good and evil.
- 864
- 00:38:05,904 --> 00:38:08,279
- - Rebelling the...
- - And God cursing the creation.
- 865
- 00:38:08,304 --> 00:38:09,545
- - He changed the rules
- - Uh-huh.
- 866
- 00:38:09,570 --> 00:38:10,999
- in the, in the universe.
- 867
- 00:38:11,033 --> 00:38:14,164
- Now, no longer is the sun
- gonna be able to burn forever.
- 868
- 00:38:14,226 --> 00:38:16,328
- No longer are we gonna
- be able to live forever.
- 869
- 00:38:16,383 --> 00:38:18,430
- So it's hard for us
- to even imagine...
- 870
- 00:38:18,455 --> 00:38:19,797
- - Theory.
- - what that would be like...
- 871
- 00:38:19,822 --> 00:38:21,531
- because we only see the laws...
- 872
- 00:38:21,556 --> 00:38:23,803
- And we wouldn't have
- come to that conclusion
- 873
- 00:38:23,828 --> 00:38:25,789
- - if we didn't have the Word of God.
- - Hhh, it's true if we didn't have this...
- 874
- 00:38:25,829 --> 00:38:27,939
- With, and, and that's what
- I think the Word of God
- 875
- 00:38:27,964 --> 00:38:29,494
- - has been given to us for.
- - Right.
- 876
- 00:38:29,541 --> 00:38:32,900
- So we slide into
- the third epoch of time,
- 877
- 00:38:32,925 --> 00:38:34,833
- what I call the Ante-Diluvian period,
- 878
- 00:38:34,865 --> 00:38:37,480
- the period before the flood
- and after the fall of man.
- 879
- 00:38:37,505 --> 00:38:38,275
- Uh-huh.
- 880
- 00:38:38,314 --> 00:38:41,243
- It's a world that's different
- than the present.
- 881
- 00:38:41,275 --> 00:38:43,558
- It's gotten the same
- natural laws going on.
- 882
- 00:38:43,583 --> 00:38:44,229
- Uh-huh.
- 883
- 00:38:44,254 --> 00:38:45,754
- But it's a different set of critters,
- 884
- 00:38:45,779 --> 00:38:47,386
- - a different set of plants.
- - Yeah.
- 885
- 00:38:47,411 --> 00:38:49,066
- It's a little warmer Earth.
- 886
- 00:38:49,097 --> 00:38:51,410
- The continents are in
- different positions
- 887
- 00:38:51,435 --> 00:38:53,011
- from what they are now.
- 888
- 00:38:53,043 --> 00:38:55,543
- It looks significantly different.
- 889
- 00:38:55,597 --> 00:38:58,037
- Well, and that's what
- we see in, in Peter,
- 890
- 00:38:58,061 --> 00:38:59,569
- where it talks about...
- 891
- 00:38:59,636 --> 00:39:01,662
- that world being destroyed.
- 892
- 00:39:01,698 --> 00:39:04,928
- So, the Flood was not
- just soaking everything.
- 893
- 00:39:04,967 --> 00:39:07,637
- This was a radical,
- radical change, wasn't it?
- 894
- 00:39:07,662 --> 00:39:10,992
- Yes, if we're right about
- what we've understood so far,
- 895
- 00:39:11,055 --> 00:39:13,078
- we got continents moving,
- 896
- 00:39:13,125 --> 00:39:15,687
- smashing together,
- creating mountains.
- 897
- 00:39:15,722 --> 00:39:18,904
- The mountains are rising
- to tens of thousands of feet.
- 898
- 00:39:18,966 --> 00:39:22,349
- You got water washing
- across the entire continents.
- 899
- 00:39:22,412 --> 00:39:26,693
- We're, we're reaping tens of,
- of thousands of feet of sediment
- 900
- 00:39:26,728 --> 00:39:28,474
- off of the old continents...
- 901
- 00:39:28,529 --> 00:39:32,289
- and then depositing thousands of feet
- of sediment on top of them again.
- 902
- 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:33,334
- - Yeah.
- - It's...
- 903
- 00:39:33,367 --> 00:39:36,792
- We're looking at earthquakes
- of astonishing power.
- 904
- 00:39:36,827 --> 00:39:39,704
- So this changed then from the...
- 905
- 00:39:39,729 --> 00:39:42,407
- what you call the Ante-Diluvian epoch,
- 906
- 00:39:42,470 --> 00:39:45,580
- now into uh, the post-Flood...
- 907
- 00:39:45,665 --> 00:39:48,509
- Basically, the, the Earth
- has gotten to recover...
- 908
- 00:39:48,548 --> 00:39:49,806
- from a global Flood.
- 909
- 00:39:49,860 --> 00:39:51,712
- The atmosphere has
- gotten to recover.
- 910
- 00:39:51,743 --> 00:39:54,237
- The geology, the rocks have to recover.
- 911
- 00:39:54,269 --> 00:39:57,181
- Plants and animals have
- to spread across the Earth.
- 912
- 00:39:57,216 --> 00:39:58,576
- You got lots of water,
- 913
- 00:39:58,638 --> 00:40:01,779
- humongous earthquake,
- humongous volcanoes.
- 914
- 00:40:01,810 --> 00:40:04,037
- And more or less,
- that period of recovery...
- 915
- 00:40:04,092 --> 00:40:05,662
- is a slow...
- 916
- 00:40:05,701 --> 00:40:07,199
- decrease in intensity...
- 917
- 00:40:07,224 --> 00:40:08,934
- and frequency of those things.
- 918
- 00:40:08,959 --> 00:40:12,599
- So would it be in that period
- that we would see the Ice Age?
- 919
- 00:40:12,638 --> 00:40:13,646
- For example?
- 920
- 00:40:13,709 --> 00:40:16,326
- Yes. That's ironically,
- 921
- 00:40:16,357 --> 00:40:18,357
- the Ice Age turns out to be,
- 922
- 00:40:18,382 --> 00:40:19,516
- in our modeling,
- 923
- 00:40:19,563 --> 00:40:22,607
- a consequence of
- the heating of water...
- 924
- 00:40:22,686 --> 00:40:23,951
- during the flood.
- 925
- 00:40:23,990 --> 00:40:25,922
- The water is evaporating
- off the oceans.
- 926
- 00:40:25,947 --> 00:40:27,547
- - That cools the oceans.
- - Uh-huh.
- 927
- 00:40:27,578 --> 00:40:29,625
- The water is then moving
- over the continents
- 928
- 00:40:29,650 --> 00:40:32,219
- and dropping enormous
- volumes of water.
- 929
- 00:40:32,250 --> 00:40:35,437
- Now in certain places, the rain
- is gonna come down as snow.
- 930
- 00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:37,375
- - They're coming down so rapidly
- - Okay.
- 931
- 00:40:37,384 --> 00:40:39,172
- and without break,
- 932
- 00:40:39,219 --> 00:40:42,289
- that can't melt and
- accumulates into thick...
- 933
- 00:40:42,336 --> 00:40:44,039
- - sequences of ice...
- - Uh-huh.
- 934
- 00:40:44,078 --> 00:40:46,196
- - until they're miles thick.
- - Uh-huh.
- 935
- 00:40:46,229 --> 00:40:48,547
- And then when the oceans
- have cooled enough
- 936
- 00:40:48,572 --> 00:40:51,383
- that that rain generation
- system has stopped,...
- 937
- 00:40:51,430 --> 00:40:55,237
- then those glaciers then collapse
- under their own weight,
- 938
- 00:40:55,291 --> 00:40:58,245
- melt back to the current position,
- and they're continuing to melt.
- 939
- 00:40:58,284 --> 00:41:00,377
- Now this thing global warming, it is.
- 940
- 00:41:00,403 --> 00:41:03,598
- It's recovering, the Earth is still
- recovering from the flood.
- 941
- 00:41:03,684 --> 00:41:08,686
- So that was really a fairly
- tumultuous era uh, right then...
- 942
- 00:41:08,757 --> 00:41:11,476
- and but then you have
- one final epoch.
- 943
- 00:41:11,569 --> 00:41:14,460
- - So the modern epoch is...
- - Uh-huh.
- 944
- 00:41:14,485 --> 00:41:16,633
- you can study present processeses
- 945
- 00:41:16,665 --> 00:41:17,986
- and understand things...
- 946
- 00:41:18,016 --> 00:41:20,055
- fairly literally back to...
- 947
- 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:20,665
- Yeah.
- 948
- 00:41:20,690 --> 00:41:22,481
- where within a couple
- centuries of the Flood.
- 949
- 00:41:22,516 --> 00:41:25,626
- And so that would leave one
- to think that these processes,
- 950
- 00:41:25,651 --> 00:41:27,432
- if you take it all the way back.
- 951
- 00:41:27,457 --> 00:41:28,604
- - Precisely.
- - You're right.
- 952
- 00:41:28,643 --> 00:41:31,434
- You, you take the present processes
- and extend them into the back.
- 953
- 00:41:31,459 --> 00:41:33,700
- And, and that's what
- 2nd Peter says.
- 954
- 00:41:33,725 --> 00:41:35,020
- That's the error people make.
- 955
- 00:41:35,051 --> 00:41:36,270
- It's reasonable.
- 956
- 00:41:36,293 --> 00:41:38,645
- Take the present and
- extend it into the past,
- 957
- 00:41:38,676 --> 00:41:40,175
- not unreasonable.
- 958
- 00:41:40,215 --> 00:41:42,497
- So you need to go to the Bible...
- 959
- 00:41:42,575 --> 00:41:45,028
- to find out the necessary information
- 960
- 00:41:45,067 --> 00:41:46,723
- - to, to reconstruct it.
- - Uh-huh. Yeah.
- 961
- 00:41:46,786 --> 00:41:48,527
- And looking at the other way,...
- 962
- 00:41:48,582 --> 00:41:50,230
- if you start from the Bible,...
- 963
- 00:41:50,269 --> 00:41:52,800
- You only get the beginning of the story.
- 964
- 00:41:52,831 --> 00:41:53,441
- Right.
- 965
- 00:41:53,466 --> 00:41:56,331
- God has given us the ability
- to read the rocks
- 966
- 00:41:56,356 --> 00:41:58,675
- - and fill in the rest of the story.
- - Yeah.
- 967
- 00:41:58,706 --> 00:42:01,255
- And we need to, to fully
- understand the Flood,
- 968
- 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:02,802
- we start with the Bible.
- 969
- 00:42:02,919 --> 00:42:04,231
- But then we go to the rocks.
- 970
- 00:42:04,256 --> 00:42:06,239
- Speak to the rocks
- and they shall tell...
- 971
- 00:42:06,264 --> 00:42:06,840
- Right.
- 972
- 00:42:06,865 --> 00:42:08,841
- what has happened in the past.
- 973
- 00:42:09,849 --> 00:42:11,278
- Kurt made a good point.
- 974
- 00:42:11,325 --> 00:42:13,769
- The Bible records historical events...
- 975
- 00:42:13,794 --> 00:42:16,671
- but it doesn't explain how
- those events happened.
- 976
- 00:42:16,812 --> 00:42:19,030
- That's what these scientists were doing.
- 977
- 00:42:19,077 --> 00:42:21,030
- They were trying to
- interpret the evidence
- 978
- 00:42:21,055 --> 00:42:23,069
- in the light of biblical history.
- 979
- 00:42:23,413 --> 00:42:26,569
- But Kurt said there was
- evidence inside the rocks.
- 980
- 00:42:26,632 --> 00:42:28,569
- What was that evidence?
- 981
- 00:42:39,503 --> 00:42:41,355
- I love coming to
- the Natural History Museums.
- 982
- 00:42:41,380 --> 00:42:45,230
- Uh, uh, for me as a paleontologist,
- it's like a chance to go to a zoo.
- 983
- 00:42:45,308 --> 00:42:48,091
- That's all the animals that
- used to live before the Flood.
- 984
- 00:42:48,122 --> 00:42:48,677
- Uh-huh.
- 985
- 00:42:48,708 --> 00:42:50,654
- It's like a chance
- to step back in time.
- 986
- 00:42:50,682 --> 00:42:52,443
- It is like a zoo,
- except they are not alive.
- 987
- 00:42:52,460 --> 00:42:53,607
- - They're all dead.
- - Right, I know.
- 988
- 00:42:53,632 --> 00:42:54,505
- And they don't smell.
- 989
- 00:42:54,537 --> 00:42:56,130
- - So that is pretty good.
- - Yeah.
- 990
- 00:42:56,229 --> 00:42:58,794
- And, and the Natural History
- Museum isn't just about...
- 991
- 00:42:58,865 --> 00:43:00,583
- telling us what was there.
- 992
- 00:43:00,622 --> 00:43:03,364
- It's also trying to
- give us a story line.
- 993
- 00:43:03,389 --> 00:43:03,987
- - Right?
- - Uh-huh.
- 994
- 00:43:04,021 --> 00:43:05,107
- And we...
- 995
- 00:43:05,145 --> 00:43:07,534
- we got two possibilities,
- we got these two paradigms
- 996
- 00:43:07,559 --> 00:43:10,458
- between a naturalistic view
- and a, a biblical view.
- 997
- 00:43:10,497 --> 00:43:12,575
- And all the Natural History
- Museums in the country,
- 998
- 00:43:12,614 --> 00:43:13,848
- most of them around the world,
- 999
- 00:43:13,879 --> 00:43:14,934
- all give you just...
- 1000
- 00:43:14,965 --> 00:43:16,678
- - one of those views.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1001
- 00:43:16,703 --> 00:43:20,625
- Only giving you a naturalistic
- old Earth view of the world.
- 1002
- 00:43:20,651 --> 00:43:22,261
- But the same data,...
- 1003
- 00:43:22,331 --> 00:43:23,550
- this dinosaur,
- 1004
- 00:43:23,581 --> 00:43:25,386
- is able to be understood
- 1005
- 00:43:25,432 --> 00:43:27,206
- in an alternate paradigm.
- 1006
- 00:43:27,268 --> 00:43:29,847
- So when I'm thinking about
- these types of creatures,
- 1007
- 00:43:29,872 --> 00:43:32,511
- I'm thinking about a world
- just right before the Flood.
- 1008
- 00:43:32,536 --> 00:43:35,034
- I mean, this is a real picture
- of a violent world.
- 1009
- 00:43:35,059 --> 00:43:36,253
- - Yeah. And...
- - Yeah.
- 1010
- 00:43:36,278 --> 00:43:38,634
- This is why God said:
- "Behold, the end of all flush".
- 1011
- 00:43:38,659 --> 00:43:40,249
- - It wasn't just mankind.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1012
- 00:43:40,296 --> 00:43:42,865
- Man and all the animals
- on which we rule...
- 1013
- 00:43:42,900 --> 00:43:45,358
- - are juged at the time of the Flood.
- - Uh-huh. Yeah.
- 1014
- 00:43:45,744 --> 00:43:49,145
- Well, Marcus, can you kind of
- give us an overall picture...
- 1015
- 00:43:49,221 --> 00:43:52,713
- of the fossils and how
- all these stuffs fit together?
- 1016
- 00:43:52,738 --> 00:43:53,392
- Yeah.
- 1017
- 00:43:53,424 --> 00:43:55,908
- Fossils tend to be found
- in distinct layers where the...
- 1018
- 00:43:55,939 --> 00:43:58,267
- very, very large numbers
- that have been destroyed.
- 1019
- 00:43:58,322 --> 00:43:59,799
- Untold billions.
- 1020
- 00:44:00,049 --> 00:44:01,510
- And so every time we see
- 1021
- 00:44:01,549 --> 00:44:03,416
- a layer of rock that this thick,...
- 1022
- 00:44:03,478 --> 00:44:06,775
- we're thinking about an event
- that probably took minutes...
- 1023
- 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:07,907
- - to, to make. Not...
- - Hhh.
- 1024
- 00:44:07,916 --> 00:44:09,174
- thousands of years.
- 1025
- 00:44:09,203 --> 00:44:11,166
- Minutes for just this
- one package of rocks.
- 1026
- 00:44:11,191 --> 00:44:12,549
- Sometimes, even seconds.
- 1027
- 00:44:12,580 --> 00:44:15,121
- Now, where these pulses
- of water from the Flood are...
- 1028
- 00:44:15,168 --> 00:44:16,809
- moving over the continents,
- 1029
- 00:44:16,848 --> 00:44:18,444
- grabbing ecosystems,
- 1030
- 00:44:18,469 --> 00:44:22,082
- or dragging marine ones up
- from, from deeper in the ocean...
- 1031
- 00:44:22,123 --> 00:44:23,600
- and pulling them onto land.
- 1032
- 00:44:23,632 --> 00:44:25,873
- And as one gets deposited,
- and the waves come back,
- 1033
- 00:44:25,898 --> 00:44:28,709
- They start pulling and piling
- additional stuffs on top of that.
- 1034
- 00:44:28,734 --> 00:44:32,782
- And it's, it's a graveyard on top
- of a graveyard on top of a graveyard.
- 1035
- 00:44:32,900 --> 00:44:35,595
- It's, it's a sort of thing
- that speaks to a catastrophe,
- 1036
- 00:44:35,620 --> 00:44:37,470
- not the sort of thing
- where the fossil record
- 1037
- 00:44:37,494 --> 00:44:38,986
- is gradually accumulating
- 1038
- 00:44:39,017 --> 00:44:40,728
- bone by bone,
- shell by shell,
- 1039
- 00:44:40,753 --> 00:44:41,712
- - little by little,
- - Uh-huh.
- 1040
- 00:44:41,736 --> 00:44:43,392
- over untold eons of time.
- 1041
- 00:44:43,628 --> 00:44:45,602
- So you're saying that
- we have these...
- 1042
- 00:44:45,627 --> 00:44:48,259
- uh, marine fossils all over,
- 1043
- 00:44:48,284 --> 00:44:49,994
- - even on mountains.
- - Yes.
- 1044
- 00:44:50,041 --> 00:44:52,137
- Yeah, further back over
- uh, in the Museum,
- 1045
- 00:44:52,162 --> 00:44:53,957
- they got sections
- with things like mosasaurs,
- 1046
- 00:44:53,981 --> 00:44:56,035
- - big swimming reptiles.
- - Hhh.
- 1047
- 00:44:56,137 --> 00:44:57,973
- Mosasaurs are globally distributed.
- 1048
- 00:44:57,998 --> 00:45:00,435
- And, and they're distributed
- on continents.
- 1049
- 00:45:00,460 --> 00:45:02,113
- So looking at these things,
- you're saying:
- 1050
- 00:45:02,138 --> 00:45:03,608
- what is it that has the power,
- 1051
- 00:45:03,633 --> 00:45:05,335
- what is it that has, has a capacity
- 1052
- 00:45:05,366 --> 00:45:06,677
- to take the marine world
- 1053
- 00:45:06,702 --> 00:45:08,787
- and throw it on top
- of the continents
- 1054
- 00:45:08,819 --> 00:45:10,467
- in such violent and
- destructive manner.
- 1055
- 00:45:10,501 --> 00:45:12,581
- And, and the Flood makes
- perfect sense with this.
- 1056
- 00:45:12,628 --> 00:45:14,261
- When we were in
- the Grand Canyon,
- 1057
- 00:45:14,300 --> 00:45:16,667
- we saw that Great Unconformity.
- 1058
- 00:45:16,692 --> 00:45:18,464
- - Yeah.
- - And there were no fossils
- 1059
- 00:45:18,496 --> 00:45:20,043
- to speak of really below that.
- 1060
- 00:45:20,068 --> 00:45:22,757
- And then all of the sudden,
- we start getting a lot.
- 1061
- 00:45:22,782 --> 00:45:25,612
- What, what does that say
- to you as a paleontologist?
- 1062
- 00:45:25,690 --> 00:45:27,414
- Well, the Great Unconformity is telling me
- 1063
- 00:45:27,439 --> 00:45:29,409
- that there's some sort of
- massive erosion
- 1064
- 00:45:29,434 --> 00:45:31,636
- and sheering that is happening
- across the continent.
- 1065
- 00:45:31,667 --> 00:45:34,595
- And then once we start getting
- to those nice sedimentary rocks,
- 1066
- 00:45:34,620 --> 00:45:36,622
- they have all the wonderful
- fossils in them.
- 1067
- 00:45:36,686 --> 00:45:39,816
- The pattern uh, starts to emerge.
- 1068
- 00:45:39,841 --> 00:45:43,148
- The ecosystem that has
- the first animal tenet
- 1069
- 00:45:43,173 --> 00:45:44,562
- shows up very suddenly.
- 1070
- 00:45:44,601 --> 00:45:46,111
- In conventional Paleontology,
- 1071
- 00:45:46,136 --> 00:45:48,189
- they call this
- the Cambrianic Explosion.
- 1072
- 00:45:48,281 --> 00:45:50,593
- It's the first appearance
- of a wide diversity
- 1073
- 00:45:50,624 --> 00:45:52,470
- of different types
- of marine animals.
- 1074
- 00:45:52,501 --> 00:45:54,953
- All of the sudden, you have
- this complex and whole ecosystem
- 1075
- 00:45:54,978 --> 00:45:57,220
- that shows up,
- basically, out of nowhere.
- 1076
- 00:45:57,259 --> 00:45:59,986
- Now that makes perfect sense from
- the Creation and Flood perspective
- 1077
- 00:46:00,017 --> 00:46:02,594
- because the Flood is about
- destroying ecosystems.
- 1078
- 00:46:02,658 --> 00:46:04,181
- Whereas in the evolutionary view,
- 1079
- 00:46:04,212 --> 00:46:06,994
- uh, these ecosystems are
- going to have to arise
- 1080
- 00:46:07,033 --> 00:46:08,478
- a little more gradually
- 1081
- 00:46:08,517 --> 00:46:10,910
- as organism diversify evolve
- 1082
- 00:46:10,935 --> 00:46:13,292
- and respond to one another
- in their environment.
- 1083
- 00:46:13,339 --> 00:46:14,527
- But that's not what you see.
- 1084
- 00:46:14,552 --> 00:46:16,089
- Instead, you see...
- 1085
- 00:46:16,176 --> 00:46:17,949
- an explosion of life...
- 1086
- 00:46:18,074 --> 00:46:19,777
- that is complex,
- 1087
- 00:46:19,808 --> 00:46:20,816
- whole,
- 1088
- 00:46:20,847 --> 00:46:22,943
- the ecosystem is integrated
- with one another.
- 1089
- 00:46:22,968 --> 00:46:25,357
- You can see where all
- the different organisms fit,
- 1090
- 00:46:25,435 --> 00:46:27,084
- - Uh-huh.
- - with respect to one another.
- 1091
- 00:46:27,124 --> 00:46:30,138
- And that's just the first
- time that that happens.
- 1092
- 00:46:30,318 --> 00:46:32,576
- Every time you move up
- in the geological column,
- 1093
- 00:46:32,607 --> 00:46:34,007
- in this fossil record,
- 1094
- 00:46:34,046 --> 00:46:37,132
- you start seeing snapshots of
- more and more ecosystems.
- 1095
- 00:46:37,164 --> 00:46:39,336
- You got one ecosystem that is destroyed,
- 1096
- 00:46:39,391 --> 00:46:40,555
- and then you got another one.
- 1097
- 00:46:40,573 --> 00:46:42,234
- It's gotten slightly different creatures,
- 1098
- 00:46:42,281 --> 00:46:44,305
- there're different interactions going on.
- 1099
- 00:46:44,351 --> 00:46:46,242
- And as the floodwaters
- move higher and higher,
- 1100
- 00:46:46,267 --> 00:46:48,158
- they're getting closer
- and closer to the shore,
- 1101
- 00:46:48,216 --> 00:46:50,584
- destroying more and more
- organisms in the shoreline,
- 1102
- 00:46:50,609 --> 00:46:52,921
- - and eventually up onto land.
- - Yeah.
- 1103
- 00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,507
- So I, I think I see
- what you're saying here.
- 1104
- 00:46:55,536 --> 00:46:57,499
- And that is,
- it's, it's the paradigm
- 1105
- 00:46:57,539 --> 00:46:59,164
- that uh, we're all taught,
- 1106
- 00:46:59,182 --> 00:47:00,749
- that conventional paradigm...
- 1107
- 00:47:00,804 --> 00:47:03,421
- is trying to tell us that
- the fossil record is...
- 1108
- 00:47:03,460 --> 00:47:07,465
- an evolutionary picture
- of life as it's developing...
- 1109
- 00:47:07,518 --> 00:47:11,104
- as oppose to the Genesis
- paradigm that is saying no,
- 1110
- 00:47:11,129 --> 00:47:13,503
- all of that life,
- all the complexity of life
- 1111
- 00:47:13,528 --> 00:47:15,019
- - already was there...
- - Yeah.
- 1112
- 00:47:15,044 --> 00:47:18,090
- and now, we're looking at
- the graveyard of all that life.
- 1113
- 00:47:18,115 --> 00:47:19,170
- Exactly.
- 1114
- 00:47:19,195 --> 00:47:20,839
- Well, what are some other data
- 1115
- 00:47:20,864 --> 00:47:24,245
- that you're seeing that,
- that convinces you of this paradigm?
- 1116
- 00:47:24,272 --> 00:47:27,897
- Sure. Well, one very curious
- situation with the fossil record,
- 1117
- 00:47:27,922 --> 00:47:30,374
- so if you're thinking
- vertically about things,
- 1118
- 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,639
- it, it's not the hard parts
- of the animal,
- 1119
- 00:47:32,699 --> 00:47:34,855
- but the trackways.
- 1120
- 00:47:34,903 --> 00:47:36,144
- They are the footprints.
- 1121
- 00:47:36,186 --> 00:47:38,808
- This is a pattern that we see
- in several different groups,
- 1122
- 00:47:38,835 --> 00:47:42,245
- where their footprints are first
- and body parts are later.
- 1123
- 00:47:42,277 --> 00:47:43,041
- Uh-huh.
- 1124
- 00:47:43,066 --> 00:47:45,525
- For the trilobites, for the amphibians,
- for the dinosaurs,
- 1125
- 00:47:45,550 --> 00:47:48,284
- the first time I find evidence
- of them in the fossil record
- 1126
- 00:47:48,330 --> 00:47:49,644
- is from trackways,
- 1127
- 00:47:49,691 --> 00:47:51,511
- - not hard parts.
- - Interesting.
- 1128
- 00:47:51,655 --> 00:47:53,097
- From an old Earth perspective,
- 1129
- 00:47:53,122 --> 00:47:56,011
- that's really weird
- and hard to grapple with,
- 1130
- 00:47:56,042 --> 00:47:58,168
- because you have millions of years...
- 1131
- 00:47:58,203 --> 00:48:00,135
- between the trackway production...
- 1132
- 00:48:00,182 --> 00:48:01,236
- and ultimately,
- 1133
- 00:48:01,261 --> 00:48:02,681
- - the animal that made it.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1134
- 00:48:02,706 --> 00:48:05,010
- But that obviously doesn't
- make a whole lot of sense.
- 1135
- 00:48:05,035 --> 00:48:06,877
- Uh, because if there're trackways,
- there are animals.
- 1136
- 00:48:06,894 --> 00:48:09,213
- And these animals have bones
- and teeth and shells to them.
- 1137
- 00:48:09,244 --> 00:48:10,924
- Why aren't they fossilized?
- 1138
- 00:48:10,955 --> 00:48:13,142
- Instead, the pattern is telling us
- something different.
- 1139
- 00:48:13,167 --> 00:48:14,314
- There's no time...
- 1140
- 00:48:14,361 --> 00:48:17,064
- between when somebody leaves a track
- and when somebody gets buried.
- 1141
- 00:48:17,111 --> 00:48:19,650
- But the fact that those
- trackways are still there,
- 1142
- 00:48:19,675 --> 00:48:22,001
- that, that should tell us
- something as well, shouldn't it?
- 1143
- 00:48:22,026 --> 00:48:23,760
- One, it tells us that the deposition
- 1144
- 00:48:23,785 --> 00:48:26,432
- or the, the placement of
- the next layer on top of them
- 1145
- 00:48:26,463 --> 00:48:28,284
- had to happen very, very quickly.
- 1146
- 00:48:28,353 --> 00:48:31,814
- Because, again, you go on to uh,
- a beach and you walk in the sand,
- 1147
- 00:48:31,877 --> 00:48:33,822
- your trackways are, are destroyed
- 1148
- 00:48:33,854 --> 00:48:35,564
- - very, very quickly.
- - Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
- 1149
- 00:48:35,611 --> 00:48:38,603
- But the fossil record is showing us
- something very different from today.
- 1150
- 00:48:38,659 --> 00:48:40,033
- This is death in a moment.
- 1151
- 00:48:40,058 --> 00:48:41,346
- - Yes.
- - This is death in an instant.
- 1152
- 00:48:41,371 --> 00:48:44,203
- And we're talking about
- a, a world that was complex,
- 1153
- 00:48:44,228 --> 00:48:45,635
- whole, integrated,
- 1154
- 00:48:45,705 --> 00:48:49,275
- and the Flood is destroying
- that world, sequentially,...
- 1155
- 00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:51,838
- - and burying it in a vertical fashion.
- - Uh-huh. Yeah.
- 1156
- 00:48:51,908 --> 00:48:53,036
- And so I think,
- 1157
- 00:48:53,084 --> 00:48:56,029
- looking at the fossil record
- as a record of life is...
- 1158
- 00:48:56,068 --> 00:48:57,263
- partly correct.
- 1159
- 00:48:57,318 --> 00:48:58,943
- But it's not about life development.
- 1160
- 00:48:58,968 --> 00:49:02,099
- It's about life attempts
- to survive an event...
- 1161
- 00:49:02,138 --> 00:49:04,672
- that ultimately consumed all of them.
- 1162
- 00:49:04,771 --> 00:49:06,101
- Well, that would make sense then,
- 1163
- 00:49:06,126 --> 00:49:10,766
- because, when God was talking
- about destroying the Earth...
- 1164
- 00:49:10,791 --> 00:49:11,877
- uh, with the flood,
- 1165
- 00:49:11,902 --> 00:49:14,437
- it wasn't just
- the destruction of human life,
- 1166
- 00:49:14,462 --> 00:49:17,019
- it was the destruction of all life.
- 1167
- 00:49:17,044 --> 00:49:19,367
- And so, now the world we live in
- 1168
- 00:49:19,392 --> 00:49:20,655
- is, as you said,
- 1169
- 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:21,687
- radically different
- 1170
- 00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:23,328
- - than what that was before.
- - Yeah.
- 1171
- 00:49:23,359 --> 00:49:25,828
- When we look at the T-Rex,
- when we look at the Mosasaur,
- 1172
- 00:49:25,853 --> 00:49:26,953
- when we look at...
- 1173
- 00:49:27,008 --> 00:49:29,219
- uh, all these animals
- as ferocious carnivores,
- 1174
- 00:49:29,244 --> 00:49:30,247
- and they really are.
- 1175
- 00:49:30,303 --> 00:49:31,779
- I mean, they terrify.
- 1176
- 00:49:31,804 --> 00:49:34,825
- But that's not what they were
- initially created to be.
- 1177
- 00:49:34,872 --> 00:49:36,724
- And so these sharp teeth,
- 1178
- 00:49:36,771 --> 00:49:38,217
- these devastating claws,
- 1179
- 00:49:38,247 --> 00:49:39,997
- and the behaviors
- that go along with them,
- 1180
- 00:49:40,036 --> 00:49:41,958
- all seem to be part of the curse.
- 1181
- 00:49:41,990 --> 00:49:43,287
- And part of that is genetic.
- 1182
- 00:49:43,333 --> 00:49:45,966
- Part of it might also be
- just thru some modifications.
- 1183
- 00:49:45,991 --> 00:49:48,068
- - But, uh, these organisms...
- - Uh-huh.
- 1184
- 00:49:48,130 --> 00:49:49,702
- by the time we see them,
- 1185
- 00:49:49,741 --> 00:49:51,286
- and it is important for us to remember
- 1186
- 00:49:51,312 --> 00:49:52,849
- when we come to
- a Natural History Museum,
- 1187
- 00:49:52,874 --> 00:49:54,959
- that you're not seeing
- the world at creation week.
- 1188
- 00:49:54,984 --> 00:49:55,593
- Right.
- 1189
- 00:49:55,624 --> 00:49:56,765
- You're seeing the world...
- 1190
- 00:49:56,802 --> 00:49:58,727
- as it existed in the Flood.
- 1191
- 00:49:58,797 --> 00:50:01,852
- And that world was the one
- that was filled with violence,
- 1192
- 00:50:01,879 --> 00:50:04,984
- and was, was a pretty
- terrible place to live.
- 1193
- 00:50:05,766 --> 00:50:09,491
- I realized that the billions of
- creatures buried in those layers
- 1194
- 00:50:09,516 --> 00:50:13,031
- are a silent testimony
- to God's global judgment.
- 1195
- 00:50:13,125 --> 00:50:17,445
- I decided I wanted to see one of
- those layers of fossils for myself.
- 1196
- 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,563
- If dinosaurs died suddenly in the Flood,
- 1197
- 00:50:20,642 --> 00:50:22,789
- wouldn't that be obvious?
- 1198
- 00:50:29,225 --> 00:50:30,811
- What we're dealing with here,
- 1199
- 00:50:30,836 --> 00:50:32,866
- this is in the Lance Formation.
- 1200
- 00:50:32,912 --> 00:50:37,125
- This is a "Upper Cretaceous"
- sedimentary deposit.
- 1201
- 00:50:37,170 --> 00:50:40,068
- And what we have here is
- what's called the bone-beds.
- 1202
- 00:50:40,093 --> 00:50:42,681
- It's, it's, an accumulation of bones...
- 1203
- 00:50:42,728 --> 00:50:44,080
- that's about a meter thick,
- 1204
- 00:50:44,109 --> 00:50:45,564
- a little less than a meter,
- 1205
- 00:50:45,617 --> 00:50:46,853
- and in this meter,
- 1206
- 00:50:46,878 --> 00:50:49,385
- we find the bones present
- as a graded bed,
- 1207
- 00:50:49,416 --> 00:50:52,580
- with little bones at the top and
- bigger bones at the bottom.
- 1208
- 00:50:52,799 --> 00:50:54,275
- And you can see here,...
- 1209
- 00:50:54,322 --> 00:50:55,541
- looks like,...
- 1210
- 00:50:55,601 --> 00:50:58,002
- Erline is working on
- another vertebrate.
- 1211
- 00:50:58,027 --> 00:51:01,582
- Here, this is a cervical vertebra
- of a duckbill dinosaur.
- 1212
- 00:51:01,613 --> 00:51:03,824
- This is where the spinal cord goes.
- 1213
- 00:51:03,849 --> 00:51:05,460
- - Right there.
- - Hhh. Uh-huh.
- 1214
- 00:51:05,499 --> 00:51:08,318
- When I, when I look at
- these bones in the quarry, I...
- 1215
- 00:51:08,428 --> 00:51:10,498
- I often I think of them as being...
- 1216
- 00:51:10,545 --> 00:51:12,340
- - inside the animal alive.
- - Oh.
- 1217
- 00:51:12,373 --> 00:51:13,763
- - And just imagine what is,
- - Sure.
- 1218
- 00:51:13,795 --> 00:51:14,939
- what is like to be...
- 1219
- 00:51:14,964 --> 00:51:17,154
- seeing these bones
- for the first time.
- 1220
- 00:51:17,337 --> 00:51:19,550
- So, so this is just full of bones.
- 1221
- 00:51:19,581 --> 00:51:23,136
- And, and it's not like we have to go
- looking for where the bones are.
- 1222
- 00:51:23,176 --> 00:51:26,214
- We just have to sit down
- and start digging.
- 1223
- 00:51:27,379 --> 00:51:29,792
- What is mainly different about...
- 1224
- 00:51:29,827 --> 00:51:31,829
- the site that you're digging here,
- 1225
- 00:51:31,860 --> 00:51:33,665
- as oppose to,
- what we would say,
- 1226
- 00:51:33,690 --> 00:51:36,337
- a general dinosaur dig somewhere?
- 1227
- 00:51:36,921 --> 00:51:39,634
- Well, there're, there're dinosaurs
- found all over the world,
- 1228
- 00:51:39,665 --> 00:51:42,306
- but, this particular site is unique,...
- 1229
- 00:51:42,345 --> 00:51:44,923
- in there is probably one of the largest
- 1230
- 00:51:44,978 --> 00:51:47,033
- collections of bones in the world.
- 1231
- 00:51:47,133 --> 00:51:49,095
- And there are the remains of, between,
- 1232
- 00:51:49,128 --> 00:51:51,871
- I would say, between
- 5,000 and 10,000 animals,
- 1233
- 00:51:51,896 --> 00:51:54,183
- each 20 to 40 feet long,
- 1234
- 00:51:54,214 --> 00:51:55,746
- in this, in this deposit.
- 1235
- 00:51:55,790 --> 00:51:57,185
- These are big animals,
- 1236
- 00:51:57,240 --> 00:51:59,091
- - and there are a lot of them.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1237
- 00:51:59,154 --> 00:52:01,739
- - Let's step back for just a second.
- - Okay.
- 1238
- 00:52:01,786 --> 00:52:05,258
- Okay, so we had,
- we had a duckbill dinosaur
- 1239
- 00:52:05,289 --> 00:52:06,524
- roaming around the Earth.
- 1240
- 00:52:06,555 --> 00:52:08,139
- And all of the sudden, it dies.
- 1241
- 00:52:08,176 --> 00:52:09,796
- Would it become a fossil?
- 1242
- 00:52:10,100 --> 00:52:13,843
- Fossilization requires
- very special circumstances.
- 1243
- 00:52:13,868 --> 00:52:15,500
- Normally, we know,
- 1244
- 00:52:15,571 --> 00:52:18,407
- for example, if a coy...,
- if a coyote dies on the desert,
- 1245
- 00:52:18,432 --> 00:52:20,692
- its, its body is soon gone.
- 1246
- 00:52:20,754 --> 00:52:23,696
- Yet these bones are
- all perfectly preserved.
- 1247
- 00:52:23,721 --> 00:52:25,672
- They have never been
- subjected to the weather,
- 1248
- 00:52:25,703 --> 00:52:27,391
- they are just all there,
- They're...
- 1249
- 00:52:27,430 --> 00:52:30,500
- Today, it would be very difficult
- to imagine how you could do that.
- 1250
- 00:52:30,549 --> 00:52:33,165
- To some extent,
- we would really say that
- 1251
- 00:52:33,190 --> 00:52:35,221
- to find a fossil is rare.
- 1252
- 00:52:35,252 --> 00:52:36,846
- Eventhough, we have
- many, many fossils,
- 1253
- 00:52:36,871 --> 00:52:38,651
- in terms of things that die,
- 1254
- 00:52:38,694 --> 00:52:41,080
- - Right.
- - it's rare if it'd become fossilized.
- 1255
- 00:52:41,105 --> 00:52:41,877
- It is rare.
- 1256
- 00:52:41,916 --> 00:52:44,432
- - It requires special circumstances.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1257
- 00:52:44,463 --> 00:52:46,745
- Not, not the least of which
- is the rapid burial.
- 1258
- 00:52:46,776 --> 00:52:47,432
- Hhh.
- 1259
- 00:52:47,457 --> 00:52:49,842
- These, these animals had to die...
- 1260
- 00:52:49,959 --> 00:52:52,826
- and then their carcasses
- had to have time to rot.
- 1261
- 00:52:52,851 --> 00:52:55,686
- So, we're talking days
- or weeks or months...
- 1262
- 00:52:55,732 --> 00:52:59,404
- during which time, the,
- the bones and tissues
- 1263
- 00:52:59,429 --> 00:53:01,853
- were either eaten away
- or rotten away.
- 1264
- 00:53:01,931 --> 00:53:04,126
- and then the bones or remains
- 1265
- 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,551
- were deposited instantaneously
- in, in this environment.
- 1266
- 00:53:07,597 --> 00:53:09,386
- Because they're in a graded bed
- 1267
- 00:53:09,411 --> 00:53:11,605
- where big bones at the bottom
- and little bones at the top.
- 1268
- 00:53:11,630 --> 00:53:12,761
- And you can see that here.
- 1269
- 00:53:12,786 --> 00:53:14,769
- - The big bones are all down at the bottom.
- - Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
- 1270
- 00:53:14,794 --> 00:53:18,214
- And when they start digging up here,
- they start to find small bones.
- 1271
- 00:53:18,254 --> 00:53:22,105
- So that condition requires
- a sorting process.
- 1272
- 00:53:22,136 --> 00:53:25,871
- It can only take place during
- a catastrophic emplacement.
- 1273
- 00:53:25,988 --> 00:53:28,785
- So when we look at
- the dinosaur fossils,
- 1274
- 00:53:28,816 --> 00:53:31,287
- rather than looking at them
- from the standpoint
- 1275
- 00:53:31,312 --> 00:53:33,412
- that we have early dinosaurs,
- 1276
- 00:53:33,445 --> 00:53:36,701
- then middle dinosaurs,
- and later dinosaurs,
- 1277
- 00:53:36,869 --> 00:53:38,095
- you're looking at proof
- 1278
- 00:53:38,127 --> 00:53:40,650
- from the perspective
- that all those dinosaurs
- 1279
- 00:53:40,674 --> 00:53:41,916
- were in existence.
- 1280
- 00:53:41,947 --> 00:53:43,244
- They were all living,
- 1281
- 00:53:43,291 --> 00:53:45,720
- and then there was
- this huge catastrophe
- 1282
- 00:53:45,745 --> 00:53:47,193
- that brought them to an end.
- 1283
- 00:53:47,248 --> 00:53:49,312
- The dinosaurs are already dinosaurs
- 1284
- 00:53:49,337 --> 00:53:51,172
- when they first,
- when they first appeared.
- 1285
- 00:53:51,197 --> 00:53:52,266
- They looked just like...
- 1286
- 00:53:52,313 --> 00:53:55,180
- anyone would sit,
- think of a dinosaur looked.
- 1287
- 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:56,844
- And this is a conundrum
- 1288
- 00:53:56,869 --> 00:53:59,555
- for, for those who believe in
- the evolution of the dinosaurs.
- 1289
- 00:53:59,580 --> 00:54:02,931
- But we hear a lot
- about transitional forms.
- 1290
- 00:54:02,973 --> 00:54:05,462
- What's, what's the real story there?
- 1291
- 00:54:05,584 --> 00:54:07,937
- Scientists have been able to...
- 1292
- 00:54:07,969 --> 00:54:11,249
- lay out some forms
- they think are transitional,
- 1293
- 00:54:11,335 --> 00:54:15,759
- and some of them are very interesting,
- some even challenging.
- 1294
- 00:54:15,876 --> 00:54:18,290
- But, there are
- the exceptions to the rule.
- 1295
- 00:54:18,329 --> 00:54:20,784
- The rule is there are
- no transitional fossils.
- 1296
- 00:54:20,809 --> 00:54:23,581
- And what we find
- in the fossil record...
- 1297
- 00:54:23,644 --> 00:54:27,538
- and contrary to Darwin's hopes,
- this is the rule,...
- 1298
- 00:54:27,598 --> 00:54:30,691
- is that a form exists
- in the fossil record,...
- 1299
- 00:54:30,716 --> 00:54:32,748
- it basically stays unchanged,
- 1300
- 00:54:32,773 --> 00:54:34,662
- and it disappears
- from the fossil record
- 1301
- 00:54:34,701 --> 00:54:36,384
- without him had been changed.
- 1302
- 00:54:36,460 --> 00:54:39,234
- That has gotten to mean
- somethng besides evolution
- 1303
- 00:54:39,259 --> 00:54:40,644
- because we don't never see
- 1304
- 00:54:40,669 --> 00:54:42,752
- changes from this form into this form
- 1305
- 00:54:42,777 --> 00:54:45,040
- in the, in the rocks themselves.
- 1306
- 00:54:45,228 --> 00:54:47,714
- So it's coming from somewhere else.
- 1307
- 00:54:47,753 --> 00:54:51,908
- It's a, it's a paradigm that is
- being imposed on the data...
- 1308
- 00:54:51,943 --> 00:54:53,394
- rather than the data is...
- 1309
- 00:54:53,465 --> 00:54:55,472
- - providing the paradigm.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1310
- 00:54:55,576 --> 00:54:58,925
- So I think it's very easy
- for me to be a creationist
- 1311
- 00:54:58,950 --> 00:55:01,105
- just based on my understanding of...
- 1312
- 00:55:01,136 --> 00:55:02,964
- the complexity of life forms.
- 1313
- 00:55:03,021 --> 00:55:04,707
- And when we look at
- the fossil record,
- 1314
- 00:55:04,740 --> 00:55:07,355
- we can see the complexity
- is all there from the beginning
- 1315
- 00:55:07,371 --> 00:55:09,675
- - and this, this begs a question of:
- - Uh-huh.
- 1316
- 00:55:09,714 --> 00:55:12,154
- Where did all this complexity come from?
- 1317
- 00:55:12,216 --> 00:55:13,662
- It's one thing to have faith.
- 1318
- 00:55:13,727 --> 00:55:15,383
- I have faith that God...
- 1319
- 00:55:15,469 --> 00:55:16,618
- was a creator,
- 1320
- 00:55:16,673 --> 00:55:19,374
- but that's substantiated
- by what I see around me.
- 1321
- 00:55:19,406 --> 00:55:20,179
- Uh-huh.
- 1322
- 00:55:20,210 --> 00:55:23,334
- To say I have faith that,
- that evolution produced this...
- 1323
- 00:55:23,381 --> 00:55:26,147
- when I can't even see
- how it could've happened,
- 1324
- 00:55:26,257 --> 00:55:27,475
- that's blind faith.
- 1325
- 00:55:27,514 --> 00:55:30,327
- - That's a leap in the dark.
- - That's a leap in the dark.
- 1326
- 00:55:31,789 --> 00:55:33,594
- It seemed that everywhere I looked,
- 1327
- 00:55:33,649 --> 00:55:35,540
- there was a growing body of evidence
- 1328
- 00:55:35,564 --> 00:55:38,422
- that fits the historical record of Genesis.
- 1329
- 00:55:38,539 --> 00:55:40,263
- It wasn't just one thing.
- 1330
- 00:55:40,329 --> 00:55:43,568
- It was many things pointing
- in the same direction.
- 1331
- 00:55:43,639 --> 00:55:44,722
- When I was with Art,
- 1332
- 00:55:44,753 --> 00:55:49,548
- he told me about some recent discoveries
- of material inside dinosaur bones.
- 1333
- 00:55:49,591 --> 00:55:52,851
- So I traveled to a lab in Arizona
- to talk to a scientist...
- 1334
- 00:55:52,913 --> 00:55:55,747
- who is doing some
- of that research himself.
- 1335
- 00:55:59,650 --> 00:56:02,540
- - This is a fragment of Triceratops horn.
- - Hhh.
- 1336
- 00:56:02,579 --> 00:56:04,134
- Uh, when we pulled it out the ground,
- 1337
- 00:56:04,159 --> 00:56:05,329
- it fragmented.
- 1338
- 00:56:05,361 --> 00:56:07,694
- And then, of course, we had
- to continue to fragment it,
- 1339
- 00:56:07,729 --> 00:56:09,674
- in order to do analysis of it.
- 1340
- 00:56:09,728 --> 00:56:11,281
- Uh, in 2012,
- 1341
- 00:56:11,321 --> 00:56:14,820
- the Creationist Research Society
- sponsored Mark Armitage and I
- 1342
- 00:56:14,836 --> 00:56:17,875
- to go to the Hell Creek
- Formation in Montana,
- 1343
- 00:56:17,906 --> 00:56:21,336
- which is very popular place
- for finding dinosaur bones,
- 1344
- 00:56:21,397 --> 00:56:23,265
- and we instead dug out
- 1345
- 00:56:23,290 --> 00:56:27,394
- a, almost, four foot long
- Triceratops brown horn.
- 1346
- 00:56:27,511 --> 00:56:30,534
- Now, it's just in crumble pieces now.
- 1347
- 00:56:30,565 --> 00:56:32,470
- So we can't really,
- you know, put it together
- 1348
- 00:56:32,495 --> 00:56:34,075
- - and show you a horn.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1349
- 00:56:34,106 --> 00:56:36,325
- But yet, you have
- to recognize that...
- 1350
- 00:56:36,388 --> 00:56:38,575
- pieces susch as this,...
- 1351
- 00:56:38,685 --> 00:56:41,606
- we have found tissue...
- 1352
- 00:56:41,778 --> 00:56:43,318
- with cells,...
- 1353
- 00:56:43,372 --> 00:56:45,606
- - Oh, that's amazing.
- - And potentially...
- 1354
- 00:56:45,692 --> 00:56:47,442
- proteins such as collagen.
- 1355
- 00:56:47,497 --> 00:56:50,257
- It's so difficult to understand
- 1356
- 00:56:50,288 --> 00:56:54,683
- how you could have this material
- still in a dinosaur fossil...
- 1357
- 00:56:54,734 --> 00:56:58,041
- that is supposed to be 65, 75,
- 1358
- 00:56:58,066 --> 00:56:59,431
- - 80 million years of age,
- - Uh-huh.
- 1359
- 00:56:59,456 --> 00:57:04,361
- because tissue, cells,
- proteins break down.
- 1360
- 00:57:04,416 --> 00:57:06,238
- They don't just,
- they're not concrete.
- 1361
- 00:57:06,263 --> 00:57:08,825
- They don't just exist
- for eons of time.
- 1362
- 00:57:08,856 --> 00:57:10,419
- They break down.
- And, in fact,...
- 1363
- 00:57:10,474 --> 00:57:12,183
- they tend to break down
- fairly quickly,
- 1364
- 00:57:12,208 --> 00:57:13,617
- depending upon the conditions.
- 1365
- 00:57:13,656 --> 00:57:15,624
- And certainly in Hell Creek,...
- 1366
- 00:57:15,694 --> 00:57:16,788
- the conditions would be
- 1367
- 00:57:16,820 --> 00:57:19,359
- warmed up, cooled down,
- warmed up, cooled down.
- 1368
- 00:57:19,397 --> 00:57:20,849
- And any biochemist can tell you
- 1369
- 00:57:20,874 --> 00:57:23,781
- that is the fastest way
- to destroy material.
- 1370
- 00:57:23,843 --> 00:57:26,836
- It's difficult enough
- to envision it surviving
- 1371
- 00:57:26,861 --> 00:57:28,836
- for 4 or 5000 years.
- 1372
- 00:57:28,861 --> 00:57:30,494
- - But, 60 million years?
- - Hhh.
- 1373
- 00:57:30,519 --> 00:57:31,484
- 70 million years?
- 1374
- 00:57:31,511 --> 00:57:34,332
- See, that really becomes
- very difficult to make
- 1375
- 00:57:34,341 --> 00:57:37,621
- any kind of biochemical
- 1376
- 00:57:37,683 --> 00:57:40,193
- - basis for how it could have survived.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1377
- 00:57:40,276 --> 00:57:43,849
- Okay, so,
- once you find a, a,...
- 1378
- 00:57:43,897 --> 00:57:44,934
- - a sample like this,
- - Uh-huh.
- 1379
- 00:57:44,959 --> 00:57:46,342
- what do you do next?
- 1380
- 00:57:46,428 --> 00:57:50,608
- So, what we do is
- we soak the fossil material
- 1381
- 00:57:50,633 --> 00:57:53,766
- in a solution called E.D.T.A.
- 1382
- 00:57:53,805 --> 00:57:56,586
- And what you'll have
- after dissolving the fossil,
- 1383
- 00:57:56,617 --> 00:57:57,768
- the tissuewill be remaining
- 1384
- 00:57:57,795 --> 00:57:59,921
- because the EDTA won't
- dissolve the tissue.
- 1385
- 00:57:59,961 --> 00:58:02,002
- - Hhh.
- - So then I bring this over to...
- 1386
- 00:58:02,096 --> 00:58:04,299
- uh, what we call a dissection...
- 1387
- 00:58:04,339 --> 00:58:06,049
- - microscope.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1388
- 00:58:06,136 --> 00:58:08,654
- This is, in essence, dissolved...
- 1389
- 00:58:08,709 --> 00:58:10,834
- Triceratops horn.
- 1390
- 00:58:10,912 --> 00:58:12,084
- Magnified...
- 1391
- 00:58:12,123 --> 00:58:13,693
- And so, you can see
- what it looks like.
- 1392
- 00:58:13,734 --> 00:58:16,813
- Just like of little,
- little pieces of rock.
- 1393
- 00:58:17,322 --> 00:58:19,608
- Well, Kevin,
- what did you find then...
- 1394
- 00:58:19,647 --> 00:58:22,733
- uh, when you, when you were
- looking at the sample
- 1395
- 00:58:22,772 --> 00:58:25,319
- and you actually found
- some, some tissue?
- 1396
- 00:58:25,467 --> 00:58:27,303
- Okay, here is what we found.
- 1397
- 00:58:27,381 --> 00:58:29,787
- This is actually Triceratops tissue.
- 1398
- 00:58:29,842 --> 00:58:31,233
- It's stretchable.
- 1399
- 00:58:31,303 --> 00:58:32,616
- It's pliable.
- 1400
- 00:58:32,670 --> 00:58:34,397
- - It's not an impression
- - Hhh.
- 1401
- 00:58:34,444 --> 00:58:36,999
- of the soft part of the dinosaur.
- 1402
- 00:58:37,053 --> 00:58:38,743
- This is truely soft.
- 1403
- 00:58:38,768 --> 00:58:39,803
- It is squishy.
- 1404
- 00:58:39,828 --> 00:58:41,969
- It is stretchable.
- It is tissue.
- 1405
- 00:58:41,994 --> 00:58:43,225
- That blows your mind, huh?
- 1406
- 00:58:43,250 --> 00:58:44,314
- Absolutely.
- 1407
- 00:58:44,349 --> 00:58:48,570
- And if you look at them
- in the closer magnification,...
- 1408
- 00:58:49,148 --> 00:58:53,067
- what we see then, this is using
- scanning electron microscopy,
- 1409
- 00:58:53,102 --> 00:58:57,088
- you can see the extreme
- detail of the cells.
- 1410
- 00:58:57,213 --> 00:58:59,274
- And that picture and this picture,
- 1411
- 00:58:59,299 --> 00:59:01,417
- and particularly like,
- look at this picture...
- 1412
- 00:59:01,479 --> 00:59:03,262
- we would not expect,
- 1413
- 00:59:03,309 --> 00:59:08,051
- we didn't expect to see such
- enormous and elaborate detail.
- 1414
- 00:59:08,129 --> 00:59:10,808
- I mean, these structures
- are incredibly small.
- 1415
- 00:59:10,833 --> 00:59:13,129
- You know, this is
- our 20 micron bar here.
- 1416
- 00:59:13,161 --> 00:59:15,036
- You see how small
- these structures are...
- 1417
- 00:59:15,075 --> 00:59:16,497
- - still intact.
- - Yeah.
- 1418
- 00:59:16,522 --> 00:59:18,974
- It would take very little
- to break those.
- 1419
- 00:59:19,009 --> 00:59:22,198
- So at best, you would expect
- that all that would have broken off
- 1420
- 00:59:22,230 --> 00:59:23,605
- - and been long gone.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1421
- 00:59:23,659 --> 00:59:26,700
- So, that has, has to have...
- 1422
- 00:59:26,763 --> 00:59:29,191
- shaken up the scientific community.
- 1423
- 00:59:29,230 --> 00:59:31,652
- What has been
- the response to all of this?
- 1424
- 00:59:31,691 --> 00:59:33,427
- The initial response,
- 1425
- 00:59:33,458 --> 00:59:36,700
- when Dr. Schweitzer
- first published her work,...
- 1426
- 00:59:36,747 --> 00:59:40,593
- which is what became
- very popularized in 2005,
- 1427
- 00:59:40,624 --> 00:59:42,772
- it generated a lot of response.
- 1428
- 00:59:42,866 --> 00:59:46,412
- And so initially, some of
- the reaction was rejection.
- 1429
- 00:59:46,447 --> 00:59:48,055
- Oh, it's contamination.
- 1430
- 00:59:48,087 --> 00:59:48,876
- You know, those,
- 1431
- 00:59:48,901 --> 00:59:50,470
- - Oh.
- - that's not really dinosaur.
- 1432
- 00:59:50,524 --> 00:59:52,578
- It's bacteria.
- 1433
- 00:59:52,626 --> 00:59:55,344
- Because bacteria can look
- kind of strange sometimes.
- 1434
- 00:59:55,376 --> 00:59:59,232
- So, you have a lot of
- proposals of what it could be.
- 1435
- 00:59:59,299 --> 01:00:04,199
- And to her credit,
- Dr. Schweitzer did more work.
- 1436
- 01:00:04,246 --> 01:00:06,028
- They began to find protein.
- 1437
- 01:00:06,059 --> 01:00:07,898
- You break open some of these cells,
- 1438
- 01:00:07,933 --> 01:00:09,099
- you look in them
- 1439
- 01:00:09,124 --> 01:00:12,833
- at the matrix these cells are
- attached to and their protein.
- 1440
- 01:00:12,904 --> 01:00:15,371
- Okay, so once that is uh,
- 1441
- 01:00:15,396 --> 01:00:16,951
- - understood,
- - Yes.
- 1442
- 01:00:16,988 --> 01:00:18,417
- then, what happens?
- 1443
- 01:00:18,464 --> 01:00:20,370
- No, this is shaking it up, I guess.
- 1444
- 01:00:20,402 --> 01:00:22,714
- That becomes part of the controversy.
- 1445
- 01:00:22,739 --> 01:00:25,525
- Because, clearly,
- you now face with
- 1446
- 01:00:25,550 --> 01:00:28,556
- How could you explain
- the survival of this?
- 1447
- 01:00:28,581 --> 01:00:30,527
- - The pristine survival...
- - Hhh.
- 1448
- 01:00:30,552 --> 01:00:31,620
- of this.
- 1449
- 01:00:31,667 --> 01:00:33,769
- Not only for so long,
- 1450
- 01:00:33,831 --> 01:00:36,323
- - but in very unpristine condition.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1451
- 01:00:36,355 --> 01:00:38,255
- And so then,
- the controversy has been,
- 1452
- 01:00:38,294 --> 01:00:39,454
- How do you explain it?
- 1453
- 01:00:39,486 --> 01:00:40,259
- - Uh-huh.
- - And...
- 1454
- 01:00:40,298 --> 01:00:42,843
- if you read some of the literature,
- 1455
- 01:00:42,882 --> 01:00:44,913
- there is almost like desperation of,
- 1456
- 01:00:44,938 --> 01:00:46,437
- because they recognize...
- 1457
- 01:00:46,484 --> 01:00:48,406
- what the implications of this could be.
- 1458
- 01:00:48,460 --> 01:00:50,703
- Now, some people would claim:
- Well, it means nothing,
- 1459
- 01:00:50,728 --> 01:00:52,110
- because we know how old they are,
- 1460
- 01:00:52,135 --> 01:00:54,189
- and therefore, it just means
- it survived somehow.
- 1461
- 01:00:54,220 --> 01:00:55,296
- Big deal.
- 1462
- 01:00:55,321 --> 01:00:57,024
- But, how do you know
- how old they are?
- 1463
- 01:00:57,049 --> 01:00:58,399
- Would you use methods?
- 1464
- 01:00:58,424 --> 01:00:59,541
- Suppose methods of dating.
- 1465
- 01:00:59,567 --> 01:01:01,331
- Well, this is a method of dating.
- 1466
- 01:01:01,532 --> 01:01:03,978
- The tissue itself can't be discounted
- 1467
- 01:01:04,009 --> 01:01:05,549
- - as part of a method of dating.
- - Hhh.
- 1468
- 01:01:05,574 --> 01:01:08,396
- So, why do you say that doesn't count,
- but this does count?
- 1469
- 01:01:08,421 --> 01:01:12,240
- Well, it's all about the paradigm
- drives your conclusions.
- 1470
- 01:01:12,265 --> 01:01:13,990
- The paradigm is,
- it has to be old,
- 1471
- 01:01:14,029 --> 01:01:17,906
- therefore, methods that give us
- an old fossil are what we choose.
- 1472
- 01:01:17,931 --> 01:01:20,562
- Something that doesn't give us
- an old fossil, like tissue,
- 1473
- 01:01:20,601 --> 01:01:23,406
- - we have to reject or explain away.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1474
- 01:01:23,453 --> 01:01:27,047
- At least to me, and I, of course,
- I'm not a microbiologist, but...
- 1475
- 01:01:27,140 --> 01:01:29,431
- I think most people uh, would say:
- 1476
- 01:01:29,456 --> 01:01:32,470
- Well, that, that just seems
- reasonable to think that,
- 1477
- 01:01:32,495 --> 01:01:34,878
- maybe, these are not that old.
- 1478
- 01:01:34,931 --> 01:01:39,167
- Clearly, this is in violation of
- the dating process.
- 1479
- 01:01:39,192 --> 01:01:40,245
- It challenges...
- 1480
- 01:01:40,285 --> 01:01:42,160
- - the entire dating process.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1481
- 01:01:42,199 --> 01:01:45,636
- If the fossils of dinosaurs
- have been dated incorrectly,
- 1482
- 01:01:45,661 --> 01:01:48,370
- which I would say, this is
- a clear evidence they have,
- 1483
- 01:01:48,410 --> 01:01:50,632
- then it's very likely
- 1484
- 01:01:50,663 --> 01:01:53,835
- the fossils of any organism
- had been dated incorrectly.
- 1485
- 01:01:53,860 --> 01:01:54,889
- And therefore then,
- 1486
- 01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:57,358
- the geological ages
- themselves are incorrect.
- 1487
- 01:01:57,389 --> 01:02:00,881
- What you're saying is that
- if you pull out the notion of
- 1488
- 01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,711
- a long period of time,...
- 1489
- 01:02:03,750 --> 01:02:06,422
- uh, you're pulling out a major...
- 1490
- 01:02:06,462 --> 01:02:07,837
- - foundation...
- - Hhh.
- 1491
- 01:02:07,868 --> 01:02:09,472
- uh, for the conventional paradigm.
- 1492
- 01:02:09,519 --> 01:02:10,440
- Absolutely.
- 1493
- 01:02:10,472 --> 01:02:15,815
- In fact, time is the critical
- component for evolution.
- 1494
- 01:02:15,970 --> 01:02:18,349
- If you're going to say that...
- 1495
- 01:02:18,427 --> 01:02:22,896
- a simple cellular system became
- a multicellular system,
- 1496
- 01:02:22,927 --> 01:02:25,190
- and then became fish,...
- 1497
- 01:02:25,299 --> 01:02:26,809
- and the fish then...
- 1498
- 01:02:26,856 --> 01:02:28,924
- jumped up on land and grew legs
- 1499
- 01:02:28,949 --> 01:02:30,504
- - and started breathing air,
- - Hhh.
- 1500
- 01:02:30,543 --> 01:02:32,801
- and then that creature
- 1501
- 01:02:32,848 --> 01:02:35,551
- grew feathers and wings
- and started flying...
- 1502
- 01:02:35,635 --> 01:02:37,848
- So if you give us time,
- 1503
- 01:02:37,888 --> 01:02:41,317
- we'll claim to account
- for all of this...
- 1504
- 01:02:41,371 --> 01:02:43,940
- massive change of organisms.
- 1505
- 01:02:43,965 --> 01:02:46,160
- But, we got to have the time.
- 1506
- 01:02:46,723 --> 01:02:50,168
- Everything seemed to come back
- to the question of time.
- 1507
- 01:02:50,285 --> 01:02:51,795
- I remembered Andrew saying that
- 1508
- 01:02:51,820 --> 01:02:54,940
- Charles Darwin accepted
- the millions of years first,
- 1509
- 01:02:54,996 --> 01:02:58,193
- then fit his theory of evolution
- to that assumption.
- 1510
- 01:02:58,271 --> 01:03:02,578
- But why is time such
- an important element to evolution?
- 1511
- 01:03:10,782 --> 01:03:12,665
- Rob Carter is a marine biologist.
- 1512
- 01:03:12,696 --> 01:03:14,439
- So we took this scuba diving...
- 1513
- 01:03:14,478 --> 01:03:17,454
- to get a glimpse of a world
- most people don't see.
- 1514
- 01:03:17,548 --> 01:03:19,689
- His specialty was coral.
- 1515
- 01:03:19,814 --> 01:03:22,170
- And he knew a lot about
- the incredible creatures
- 1516
- 01:03:22,205 --> 01:03:25,673
- that inhabit the reefs
- around St. Thomas.
- 1517
- 01:03:25,988 --> 01:03:28,214
- Oh man, we got the sharks here?
- 1518
- 01:03:28,261 --> 01:03:29,605
- The mean in which how they move,
- 1519
- 01:03:29,630 --> 01:03:31,800
- and it's almost like effortlessly
- 1520
- 01:03:31,910 --> 01:03:33,465
- glide along.
- 1521
- 01:03:33,472 --> 01:03:34,964
- I wish I could swim like that.
- 1522
- 01:03:35,005 --> 01:03:37,128
- Engineers wish we could
- make boats like that.
- 1523
- 01:03:37,153 --> 01:03:37,613
- Yeah.
- 1524
- 01:03:37,622 --> 01:03:40,011
- Submarines that could move
- as efficiently as a shark,
- 1525
- 01:03:40,066 --> 01:03:41,709
- we can't quite do it.
- 1526
- 01:03:42,154 --> 01:03:44,731
- So from your perspective
- as a marine biologist,
- 1527
- 01:03:44,756 --> 01:03:48,466
- and I know that you've studied
- the whole area of genetics alot,...
- 1528
- 01:03:48,498 --> 01:03:49,256
- Yes.
- 1529
- 01:03:49,295 --> 01:03:51,649
- when people talk about
- evolution, what is it?
- 1530
- 01:03:51,674 --> 01:03:53,445
- How do you define evolution?
- 1531
- 01:03:53,496 --> 01:03:55,702
- The word means "change over time".
- 1532
- 01:03:55,813 --> 01:03:58,508
- But, I believe in change over time.
- 1533
- 01:03:58,625 --> 01:03:59,891
- But I'm not an evolutionist.
- 1534
- 01:03:59,916 --> 01:04:01,625
- So how does one figure this out?
- 1535
- 01:04:01,650 --> 01:04:04,438
- Really, evolution is a belief...
- 1536
- 01:04:04,552 --> 01:04:06,797
- that enough change over time,...
- 1537
- 01:04:06,872 --> 01:04:08,477
- over enough time,...
- 1538
- 01:04:08,549 --> 01:04:11,297
- can lead to the common ancestry
- of all species on Earth.
- 1539
- 01:04:11,322 --> 01:04:11,881
- Alright.
- 1540
- 01:04:11,906 --> 01:04:13,608
- So that's the part I reject.
- 1541
- 01:04:13,625 --> 01:04:14,695
- Of course, species change.
- 1542
- 01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:15,977
- I mean, look at these sharks here.
- 1543
- 01:04:16,002 --> 01:04:18,203
- We have several different
- species of sharks.
- 1544
- 01:04:18,253 --> 01:04:19,566
- When God created,
- 1545
- 01:04:19,605 --> 01:04:22,355
- He put in to those organisms the ability
- 1546
- 01:04:22,386 --> 01:04:23,925
- to change,
- to adapt,
- 1547
- 01:04:23,956 --> 01:04:26,339
- - to respond dynamically...
- - Uh-huh.
- 1548
- 01:04:26,363 --> 01:04:27,660
- to the environment.
- 1549
- 01:04:27,730 --> 01:04:29,496
- But, they're still sharks.
- 1550
- 01:04:29,566 --> 01:04:31,207
- And when we look at
- the fossil record,...
- 1551
- 01:04:31,270 --> 01:04:33,300
- - they're still sharks.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1552
- 01:04:33,332 --> 01:04:35,660
- Yeah, people have heard
- the phrase the "missing link",...
- 1553
- 01:04:35,691 --> 01:04:37,808
- and they usually think of
- between man and monkeys.
- 1554
- 01:04:37,808 --> 01:04:39,111
- No, this missing link is between
- 1555
- 01:04:39,136 --> 01:04:40,941
- almost every major group of animal,
- 1556
- 01:04:40,972 --> 01:04:44,044
- and almost every other major
- group of animal and plant,
- 1557
- 01:04:44,069 --> 01:04:47,185
- and bacteria throughout
- the entire fossil record.
- 1558
- 01:04:47,226 --> 01:04:49,021
- Which indicates very strongly...
- 1559
- 01:04:49,052 --> 01:04:52,255
- that these are actually
- different creations.
- 1560
- 01:04:52,368 --> 01:04:54,552
- So we don't get one kind
- becoming another kind?
- 1561
- 01:04:54,577 --> 01:04:55,372
- No.
- 1562
- 01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:57,788
- Evolution theory requires that...
- 1563
- 01:04:57,827 --> 01:05:01,757
- small, random changes
- can explain everything we see.
- 1564
- 01:05:01,805 --> 01:05:03,633
- - Uh-huh.
- - But, it can't.
- 1565
- 01:05:03,754 --> 01:05:04,796
- And why can't it?
- 1566
- 01:05:04,821 --> 01:05:07,663
- Because life is so complex...
- 1567
- 01:05:07,683 --> 01:05:09,692
- that small changes can't explain it.
- 1568
- 01:05:09,734 --> 01:05:12,518
- Just like you can't take
- a computer operating system,...
- 1569
- 01:05:12,543 --> 01:05:13,011
- Uh-huh.
- 1570
- 01:05:13,036 --> 01:05:14,675
- and look at it and say,
- oh yeah, this is built up
- 1571
- 01:05:14,706 --> 01:05:16,446
- - one digit at a time...
- - Right.
- 1572
- 01:05:16,471 --> 01:05:18,190
- over any length of time.
- 1573
- 01:05:18,221 --> 01:05:20,596
- No, it took an intelligent
- person to sit down...
- 1574
- 01:05:20,667 --> 01:05:22,003
- and put it together.
- 1575
- 01:05:22,049 --> 01:05:25,004
- Well, I can guarantee you
- as one who is in that world...
- 1576
- 01:05:25,067 --> 01:05:28,749
- that if anyone in the area of
- computer science would have said,
- 1577
- 01:05:28,788 --> 01:05:32,030
- we just randomly change some things
- in this operating system,
- 1578
- 01:05:32,055 --> 01:05:33,069
- it'll get better.
- 1579
- 01:05:33,100 --> 01:05:34,544
- I mean, no one would
- agree with that.
- 1580
- 01:05:34,569 --> 01:05:36,694
- No, we're not gonna get the shark...
- 1581
- 01:05:36,749 --> 01:05:39,030
- to evolve into a bird.
- 1582
- 01:05:39,139 --> 01:05:41,389
- The, the, the number of changes
- 1583
- 01:05:41,421 --> 01:05:43,140
- and the type of changes...
- 1584
- 01:05:43,202 --> 01:05:45,506
- - are not something you could do...
- - Uh-huh.
- 1585
- 01:05:45,577 --> 01:05:47,756
- one change at a time.
- 1586
- 01:05:50,619 --> 01:05:53,005
- This is a sea urchin.
- 1587
- 01:05:53,173 --> 01:05:54,200
- Looks spiny.
- 1588
- 01:05:54,227 --> 01:05:55,721
- It's pointy.
- You have to be careful.
- 1589
- 01:05:55,758 --> 01:05:57,758
- - Am I gonna get stuck if I touch it?
- - No, no, no.
- 1590
- 01:05:57,805 --> 01:05:58,807
- It's pointy, but...
- 1591
- 01:05:58,846 --> 01:06:00,143
- Oh my goodness,
- they, they're moving.
- 1592
- 01:06:00,178 --> 01:06:01,495
- Yes, they're moving.
- 1593
- 01:06:01,719 --> 01:06:04,556
- And then between the spines,
- there are little tube feet.
- 1594
- 01:06:04,638 --> 01:06:06,807
- Especially, in the bottom.
- 1595
- 01:06:08,314 --> 01:06:09,838
- Oh, look at that movement.
- 1596
- 01:06:09,900 --> 01:06:12,152
- - So he walks with his spines...
- - Huh.
- 1597
- 01:06:12,192 --> 01:06:13,871
- but his little tube feet in here,
- 1598
- 01:06:13,900 --> 01:06:15,847
- and that's what he uses
- to grab on to things...
- 1599
- 01:06:15,894 --> 01:06:17,582
- But look, looking carefully...
- 1600
- 01:06:17,605 --> 01:06:19,723
- there is one, two, three,
- four, five, six, seven...
- 1601
- 01:06:19,754 --> 01:06:23,324
- there are actually ten
- radial parts to this animal.
- 1602
- 01:06:23,449 --> 01:06:24,285
- Huh!
- 1603
- 01:06:24,324 --> 01:06:26,293
- Actually, the starfish is his cousin.
- 1604
- 01:06:26,339 --> 01:06:27,902
- Are you seriously?
- You can't be serious.
- 1605
- 01:06:27,927 --> 01:06:28,933
- Absolutely.
- 1606
- 01:06:28,958 --> 01:06:32,300
- A starfish here is
- also an echinoderm.
- 1607
- 01:06:32,363 --> 01:06:34,254
- But note, it has five full symmetry...
- 1608
- 01:06:34,317 --> 01:06:35,887
- - instead of 10.
- - Uh-huh. Yeah.
- 1609
- 01:06:35,912 --> 01:06:37,292
- This starfish does.
- 1610
- 01:06:37,390 --> 01:06:39,201
- At the bottom, look...
- 1611
- 01:06:39,530 --> 01:06:42,436
- we see the spines,
- we see the tube feet.
- 1612
- 01:06:42,498 --> 01:06:45,047
- - His mouth is in the center there.
- - Huh.
- 1613
- 01:06:45,336 --> 01:06:47,203
- So there are some similarities here?
- 1614
- 01:06:47,234 --> 01:06:48,109
- - Similarities...
- - Eventhough,
- 1615
- 01:06:48,133 --> 01:06:49,561
- externally, looks a lot different.
- 1616
- 01:06:49,586 --> 01:06:50,272
- A lot different...
- 1617
- 01:06:50,297 --> 01:06:52,016
- You want to see something
- that looks a lot different?
- 1618
- 01:06:52,047 --> 01:06:54,211
- - Sure.
- - Which is cousin to the starfish
- 1619
- 01:06:54,242 --> 01:06:55,459
- - and sea urchins.
- - Okay.
- 1620
- 01:06:55,484 --> 01:06:56,656
- Alright.
- 1621
- 01:06:56,686 --> 01:06:57,961
- It almost looks like a rock.
- 1622
- 01:06:57,986 --> 01:06:59,959
- Yes, yes, I got to be careful.
- 1623
- 01:06:59,990 --> 01:07:01,303
- He's squirting on me.
- 1624
- 01:07:01,443 --> 01:07:04,544
- - This is a sea cucumber.
- - No.
- 1625
- 01:07:04,583 --> 01:07:06,411
- - I'll be...
- - He has spines.
- 1626
- 01:07:06,863 --> 01:07:08,458
- He has...
- 1627
- 01:07:08,513 --> 01:07:09,631
- Huh.
- 1628
- 01:07:09,693 --> 01:07:11,324
- - tube feet.
- - Oh my goodness.
- 1629
- 01:07:11,349 --> 01:07:14,679
- You'd never know until
- you study really hard...
- 1630
- 01:07:14,742 --> 01:07:17,210
- that this is also an echinoderm.
- 1631
- 01:07:17,304 --> 01:07:19,117
- He's not very happy
- to be out of water
- 1632
- 01:07:19,156 --> 01:07:20,210
- - so let me put him back in.
- - Yeah.
- 1633
- 01:07:20,249 --> 01:07:21,453
- So these are all related
- 1634
- 01:07:21,488 --> 01:07:23,554
- eventhough, they look
- very, very different.
- 1635
- 01:07:23,593 --> 01:07:25,406
- Related in their creation.
- 1636
- 01:07:25,431 --> 01:07:27,413
- - Uh-huh.
- - Not in an evolutionary sense,
- 1637
- 01:07:27,460 --> 01:07:29,288
- but, our Creator...
- 1638
- 01:07:29,367 --> 01:07:31,398
- took this phylum of life,...
- 1639
- 01:07:31,507 --> 01:07:32,898
- the echinoderms,
- 1640
- 01:07:33,023 --> 01:07:35,695
- and created this and this and this
- 1641
- 01:07:35,734 --> 01:07:36,928
- on a similar pattern.
- 1642
- 01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:39,710
- And that's what we see
- across the entire realm of life,
- 1643
- 01:07:39,740 --> 01:07:41,701
- - Uh-huh.
- - similarities and differences.
- 1644
- 01:07:41,828 --> 01:07:44,275
- So, what makes them different?
- 1645
- 01:07:44,314 --> 01:07:46,902
- Well, genetically, they share...
- 1646
- 01:07:46,948 --> 01:07:49,143
- most of their genes in common.
- 1647
- 01:07:49,346 --> 01:07:51,603
- But, they develop mental genes,
- 1648
- 01:07:51,635 --> 01:07:53,119
- they're called Hox genes,
- 1649
- 01:07:53,150 --> 01:07:54,996
- that set up these patterns
- 1650
- 01:07:55,021 --> 01:07:56,330
- in the animals as they develop.
- 1651
- 01:07:56,355 --> 01:07:58,213
- They develop from a single cell.
- 1652
- 01:07:58,248 --> 01:08:00,838
- Then in one of them,
- they set up a five-fold symmetry.
- 1653
- 01:08:00,885 --> 01:08:02,721
- in another, they set up
- a ten-fold symmetry.
- 1654
- 01:08:02,746 --> 01:08:05,717
- Another one, they make
- this long skinny animal.
- 1655
- 01:08:05,779 --> 01:08:07,873
- They control the development...
- 1656
- 01:08:07,912 --> 01:08:10,589
- of the embryo in these amazing ways.
- 1657
- 01:08:10,678 --> 01:08:14,086
- So what you're saying,
- when we look at this from uh, um,...
- 1658
- 01:08:14,139 --> 01:08:17,201
- a molecular or genetic perspective,...
- 1659
- 01:08:17,303 --> 01:08:22,238
- uh, what we're finding is
- really a fascinating design...
- 1660
- 01:08:22,279 --> 01:08:24,076
- - in all of this.
- - Absolutely.
- 1661
- 01:08:24,201 --> 01:08:27,836
- But, what we heard in
- the conventional paradigm,
- 1662
- 01:08:27,867 --> 01:08:30,086
- the conventional story tells us...
- 1663
- 01:08:30,133 --> 01:08:32,772
- that is those random changes
- 1664
- 01:08:32,797 --> 01:08:34,764
- that has brought about all of this.
- 1665
- 01:08:34,789 --> 01:08:35,447
- Sure.
- 1666
- 01:08:35,482 --> 01:08:36,867
- Back in the eighteen hundreds,
- 1667
- 01:08:36,898 --> 01:08:38,424
- - when life was simple,
- - Uh-huh.
- 1668
- 01:08:38,449 --> 01:08:40,295
- when they didn't know what
- was happening inside the cell,
- 1669
- 01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:42,383
- they didn't know
- how complex genetics was,
- 1670
- 01:08:42,430 --> 01:08:44,297
- you could imagine
- all sorts of things.
- 1671
- 01:08:44,336 --> 01:08:46,166
- But now that we know
- what actually happens
- 1672
- 01:08:46,174 --> 01:08:47,283
- - behind the scence,
- - Hhh.
- 1673
- 01:08:47,315 --> 01:08:49,008
- the story gets a lot more complicated.
- 1674
- 01:08:49,033 --> 01:08:51,316
- You see, I like to say
- that the genome...
- 1675
- 01:08:51,379 --> 01:08:53,160
- - is four-dimensional.
- - Hhh.
- 1676
- 01:08:53,199 --> 01:08:55,808
- We, we have a one
- dimensional string called DNA.
- 1677
- 01:08:55,855 --> 01:08:58,121
- And if you want to draw that out,
- 1678
- 01:08:58,176 --> 01:08:59,879
- you have to write all the letters of DNA,
- 1679
- 01:08:59,910 --> 01:09:01,629
- I don't, all three billion of them,
- 1680
- 01:09:01,691 --> 01:09:03,957
- and then you have
- to draw lines or arrows...
- 1681
- 01:09:03,988 --> 01:09:06,588
- from one part to anotherpart
- because this part turns this part off,
- 1682
- 01:09:06,613 --> 01:09:09,215
- this part interferes with this,
- this part enhances this.
- 1683
- 01:09:09,254 --> 01:09:11,358
- It is a huge two dimensional
- interaction network.
- 1684
- 01:09:11,404 --> 01:09:13,576
- that's a way you have
- a two-dimensional genome.
- 1685
- 01:09:13,615 --> 01:09:14,295
- Hey, let me, let me
- 1686
- 01:09:14,326 --> 01:09:15,067
- - stop you for a second,
- - Alright.
- 1687
- 01:09:15,092 --> 01:09:16,787
- because this is really amazing...
- 1688
- 01:09:16,834 --> 01:09:18,365
- to think about this because...
- 1689
- 01:09:18,412 --> 01:09:21,389
- um, I think, in terms of
- a computer program
- 1690
- 01:09:21,414 --> 01:09:22,676
- that is fairly static.
- 1691
- 01:09:22,701 --> 01:09:24,513
- - I mean, the instructions are there.
- - Yeah.
- 1692
- 01:09:24,545 --> 01:09:26,555
- But, you're talking about a program
- 1693
- 01:09:26,586 --> 01:09:28,569
- - that is reprogramming itself.
- - Oh.
- 1694
- 01:09:28,594 --> 01:09:30,319
- That's modifying its own instructions.
- 1695
- 01:09:30,344 --> 01:09:31,672
- Wait until you get to fourth dimension.
- 1696
- 01:09:31,712 --> 01:09:32,766
- Oh, okay.
- 1697
- 01:09:32,816 --> 01:09:34,367
- Because there is a third dimension first.
- 1698
- 01:09:34,399 --> 01:09:37,573
- The information in that first dimension,
- that linear string,...
- 1699
- 01:09:37,602 --> 01:09:39,727
- has to be organized in such a way...
- 1700
- 01:09:39,756 --> 01:09:42,482
- that when it folds
- into the third dimension,
- 1701
- 01:09:42,529 --> 01:09:43,537
- it still works.
- 1702
- 01:09:43,572 --> 01:09:44,669
- Oh, that's amazing.
- 1703
- 01:09:44,707 --> 01:09:47,005
- Genes that are used together
- are next to each other.
- 1704
- 01:09:47,045 --> 01:09:48,811
- - In 3D space.
- - I'll be...
- 1705
- 01:09:48,857 --> 01:09:52,137
- Are you saying that once
- this thing gets folded up,
- 1706
- 01:09:52,162 --> 01:09:53,560
- It's almost like we have...
- 1707
- 01:09:53,615 --> 01:09:55,397
- - a new set of instructions?
- - Yes.
- 1708
- 01:09:55,427 --> 01:09:56,896
- And new level of information.
- 1709
- 01:09:56,943 --> 01:09:58,246
- - Unbelievable.
- - That...
- 1710
- 01:09:58,271 --> 01:10:00,373
- whoever programmed that first level...
- 1711
- 01:10:00,404 --> 01:10:02,184
- needed to understand
- what was gonna happen...
- 1712
- 01:10:02,209 --> 01:10:03,680
- have it work in the third level.
- 1713
- 01:10:03,705 --> 01:10:05,594
- But, you said there is
- another dimension even.
- 1714
- 01:10:05,625 --> 01:10:07,977
- Oh yeah.
- The fourth dimension is time.
- 1715
- 01:10:08,133 --> 01:10:09,352
- And how does that work?
- 1716
- 01:10:09,383 --> 01:10:11,219
- The genome changes shape...
- 1717
- 01:10:11,313 --> 01:10:12,594
- over time.
- 1718
- 01:10:12,633 --> 01:10:15,078
- Maybe, you eat something
- that's bad for you...
- 1719
- 01:10:15,148 --> 01:10:18,322
- and your liver says,
- I can get rid of that toxin.
- 1720
- 01:10:18,347 --> 01:10:22,244
- Now, the chromosomes in
- the liver will change shape,
- 1721
- 01:10:22,547 --> 01:10:25,232
- expose that new protein gene,
- 1722
- 01:10:25,295 --> 01:10:27,318
- make copies of it,...
- 1723
- 01:10:27,529 --> 01:10:30,997
- build the brand new protein
- that can kill off that toxin,...
- 1724
- 01:10:31,068 --> 01:10:32,419
- and when it's not needed anymore,
- 1725
- 01:10:32,451 --> 01:10:34,591
- - they change shape again and fold back.
- - Oh my goodness.
- 1726
- 01:10:34,646 --> 01:10:36,349
- Dynamic programming.
- 1727
- 01:10:36,428 --> 01:10:38,537
- All three levels...
- 1728
- 01:10:38,591 --> 01:10:41,591
- change in the fourth level time.
- 1729
- 01:10:41,796 --> 01:10:45,237
- Rob, that's so far beyond
- anything that we know.
- 1730
- 01:10:45,262 --> 01:10:47,827
- Even in our most complex
- software systems
- 1731
- 01:10:47,842 --> 01:10:51,280
- that it, it's almost beyond
- imagination to think...
- 1732
- 01:10:51,348 --> 01:10:53,600
- that someone would look at that
- 1733
- 01:10:53,625 --> 01:10:55,319
- and say,
- it all happened by chance.
- 1734
- 01:10:55,344 --> 01:10:57,242
- Yes, and only brings glory to God.
- 1735
- 01:10:57,274 --> 01:10:58,047
- It does.
- 1736
- 01:10:58,078 --> 01:10:59,705
- You can't build something like that up
- 1737
- 01:10:59,745 --> 01:11:00,913
- - one thing at a time.
- - Yeah.
- 1738
- 01:11:00,938 --> 01:11:02,909
- You need it function.
- 1739
- 01:11:03,018 --> 01:11:06,010
- In, in all its interlocking
- four dimensional complexity,
- 1740
- 01:11:06,049 --> 01:11:07,557
- it's not something you can do...
- 1741
- 01:11:07,588 --> 01:11:08,948
- one letter at a time...
- 1742
- 01:11:08,987 --> 01:11:10,360
- - with natural selection.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1743
- 01:11:10,385 --> 01:11:11,606
- It all has to be there.
- 1744
- 01:11:11,645 --> 01:11:13,285
- Yeah, in the same way
- when we talk about
- 1745
- 01:11:13,317 --> 01:11:15,379
- the environment down here
- at the coral reef.
- 1746
- 01:11:15,442 --> 01:11:18,591
- If you don't have all these
- interlocking pieces in that puzzle,
- 1747
- 01:11:18,653 --> 01:11:20,513
- you don't have that ecology.
- 1748
- 01:11:20,538 --> 01:11:22,075
- The system would come crashing down
- 1749
- 01:11:22,107 --> 01:11:24,550
- if you just remove
- a couple of very important
- 1750
- 01:11:24,575 --> 01:11:25,607
- - factors that are there.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1751
- 01:11:25,638 --> 01:11:28,279
- They have to be together
- or it doesn't happen.
- 1752
- 01:11:28,363 --> 01:11:31,638
- So not only do we have
- this uh, interdependency,
- 1753
- 01:11:31,678 --> 01:11:34,974
- this mutualism, so to speak,
- down at the genetic level,
- 1754
- 01:11:35,060 --> 01:11:37,617
- now we even make it
- more complex by saying,
- 1755
- 01:11:37,642 --> 01:11:39,687
- there is that same mutualism...
- 1756
- 01:11:39,718 --> 01:11:41,439
- - at the higher level as well.
- - Yes.
- 1757
- 01:11:41,464 --> 01:11:44,431
- In fact, the entire
- world has mutualism.
- 1758
- 01:11:44,546 --> 01:11:46,595
- It's impossible to think...
- 1759
- 01:11:46,642 --> 01:11:48,924
- that all of this could have happened...
- 1760
- 01:11:49,017 --> 01:11:53,083
- just by a series of slow processes
- over billions of years.
- 1761
- 01:11:53,108 --> 01:11:55,532
- That's exactly what I'm saying.
- 1762
- 01:11:57,963 --> 01:11:59,924
- It's clear that the world we live in...
- 1763
- 01:11:59,971 --> 01:12:02,190
- is incredibly interdependent.
- 1764
- 01:12:02,300 --> 01:12:04,675
- From the smallest biological system...
- 1765
- 01:12:04,706 --> 01:12:06,963
- to the largest ecosystem.
- 1766
- 01:12:07,069 --> 01:12:10,728
- There are complex mutual
- relationships everywhere.
- 1767
- 01:12:10,884 --> 01:12:14,577
- I realized the creation in six days
- makes the most sense,
- 1768
- 01:12:14,602 --> 01:12:16,329
- from an engineering perspective.
- 1769
- 01:12:16,411 --> 01:12:18,515
- You need everything working together
- 1770
- 01:12:18,561 --> 01:12:20,031
- at the same time
- 1771
- 01:12:20,093 --> 01:12:22,466
- for everything to function properly.
- 1772
- 01:12:22,561 --> 01:12:26,507
- And that's exactly how
- Genesis says, God created it.
- 1773
- 01:12:26,780 --> 01:12:29,124
- Rob also said,
- God created animals
- 1774
- 01:12:29,149 --> 01:12:30,874
- with the ability to change
- 1775
- 01:12:30,899 --> 01:12:33,171
- and adapt to their environments.
- 1776
- 01:12:33,233 --> 01:12:36,182
- Is it possible, this ability to change...
- 1777
- 01:12:36,202 --> 01:12:38,835
- has been mistaken for evolution?
- 1778
- 01:12:45,811 --> 01:12:47,905
- As Todd Wood and I
- walk through the zoo,
- 1779
- 01:12:47,944 --> 01:12:50,741
- we saw incredible beauty
- and amazing design
- 1780
- 01:12:50,788 --> 01:12:52,053
- wherever we looked.
- 1781
- 01:12:52,147 --> 01:12:54,899
- I noticed the great diversity
- between some animals,
- 1782
- 01:12:54,930 --> 01:12:58,571
- as well as a remarkable
- similarity of others.
- 1783
- 01:12:59,704 --> 01:13:01,305
- As, as a biologist,
- 1784
- 01:13:01,347 --> 01:13:04,415
- what do you see when
- you see all of these creatures?
- 1785
- 01:13:04,516 --> 01:13:06,040
- Yeah, when I look at this,...
- 1786
- 01:13:06,071 --> 01:13:07,602
- look at these lions,...
- 1787
- 01:13:07,634 --> 01:13:09,675
- specifically, I'm seeing cats.
- 1788
- 01:13:09,706 --> 01:13:13,204
- And so, and all the other cats
- they have here at the zoo,
- 1789
- 01:13:13,235 --> 01:13:15,801
- they all have this underlining...
- 1790
- 01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:17,552
- catness to them...
- 1791
- 01:13:17,590 --> 01:13:19,155
- - Hhh.
- - that's really apparent.
- 1792
- 01:13:19,201 --> 01:13:23,746
- It's really apparent when
- they start playing, right?
- 1793
- 01:13:23,795 --> 01:13:26,787
- You see them play with some sort of ball
- or something and they look...
- 1794
- 01:13:26,819 --> 01:13:28,965
- - Look just like a cat.
- - They look like a cat.
- 1795
- 01:13:28,991 --> 01:13:32,061
- You know, scientists would put that
- to a family called Felidae.
- 1796
- 01:13:32,123 --> 01:13:34,319
- And I would understand
- the felines to be...
- 1797
- 01:13:34,344 --> 01:13:36,362
- representatives of a single created kind.
- 1798
- 01:13:36,387 --> 01:13:37,516
- So the continuity,
- 1799
- 01:13:37,541 --> 01:13:40,032
- the similarity there is so significant...
- 1800
- 01:13:40,063 --> 01:13:41,235
- that I'd say, yeah,
- 1801
- 01:13:41,267 --> 01:13:43,688
- these guys are all
- descended from a single...
- 1802
- 01:13:43,750 --> 01:13:44,938
- pair of critters...
- 1803
- 01:13:44,993 --> 01:13:46,524
- - Hhh.
- - that was on the ark...
- 1804
- 01:13:46,563 --> 01:13:50,452
- and that eventually generated
- all the different sorts of cats
- 1805
- 01:13:50,477 --> 01:13:51,625
- that we have today.
- 1806
- 01:13:51,665 --> 01:13:55,839
- So rather than just uh,
- a, a random accident,...
- 1807
- 01:13:55,909 --> 01:13:59,587
- it appears as if all of these
- different species are coming
- 1808
- 01:13:59,603 --> 01:14:00,634
- from a really
- 1809
- 01:14:00,659 --> 01:14:03,084
- - elaborate design.
- - Oh, absolutely.
- 1810
- 01:14:03,111 --> 01:14:05,152
- And it's not just the design,
- like God, you know,
- 1811
- 01:14:05,177 --> 01:14:06,534
- designed and created the lion,
- 1812
- 01:14:06,565 --> 01:14:09,122
- it's God created something
- that could make a lion.
- 1813
- 01:14:09,147 --> 01:14:10,763
- - Uh-huh.
- - So it's more like, you know,
- 1814
- 01:14:10,796 --> 01:14:12,395
- a multi-purpose tool
- or a Swiss Army knife,
- 1815
- 01:14:12,420 --> 01:14:15,388
- where you got all these pieces that
- you just pop out whenever you need them,
- 1816
- 01:14:15,427 --> 01:14:17,013
- but it's all just one thing.
- 1817
- 01:14:17,052 --> 01:14:20,231
- So give me some other
- examples of created kinds.
- 1818
- 01:14:20,263 --> 01:14:23,359
- Yes, so, you got the grizzly
- and the polar bear.
- 1819
- 01:14:23,406 --> 01:14:25,375
- Those are all members
- of the bear kind.
- 1820
- 01:14:25,410 --> 01:14:27,935
- You got ducks, swans and geese.
- 1821
- 01:14:28,001 --> 01:14:30,271
- The thing about the dog kind
- is really interesting.
- 1822
- 01:14:30,303 --> 01:14:33,326
- So, you take just
- this wolf-like creature...
- 1823
- 01:14:33,389 --> 01:14:36,084
- and we can breed in only
- a few hundred years...
- 1824
- 01:14:36,115 --> 01:14:37,797
- many different breeds.
- 1825
- 01:14:37,953 --> 01:14:39,908
- Well, Todd, that's kind of
- fascinating now,
- 1826
- 01:14:39,939 --> 01:14:42,119
- to think about
- what God was doing
- 1827
- 01:14:42,159 --> 01:14:43,604
- when He was bringing
- 1828
- 01:14:43,633 --> 01:14:45,494
- uh, two of every kind.
- 1829
- 01:14:45,525 --> 01:14:47,032
- What do you think
- was going on there?
- 1830
- 01:14:47,064 --> 01:14:48,400
- Oh yeah.
- I mean, He's...
- 1831
- 01:14:48,533 --> 01:14:52,457
- He doesn't have to bring
- every little variety onto the ark.
- 1832
- 01:14:52,496 --> 01:14:54,473
- So when you actually
- do the calculations,
- 1833
- 01:14:54,504 --> 01:14:55,926
- and, okay, so we don't know exactly
- 1834
- 01:14:55,951 --> 01:14:57,795
- how many created kinds
- that were on the ark.
- 1835
- 01:14:57,820 --> 01:14:59,663
- Maybe, couple thousands,...
- 1836
- 01:14:59,688 --> 01:15:00,709
- and they're small.
- 1837
- 01:15:00,734 --> 01:15:02,312
- Most animals are quite small.
- 1838
- 01:15:02,343 --> 01:15:04,132
- So, you have room to spare.
- 1839
- 01:15:04,164 --> 01:15:05,656
- - Literally, room to spare.
- - Hhh.
- 1840
- 01:15:05,693 --> 01:15:08,265
- And all of that diversity
- that we have today
- 1841
- 01:15:08,312 --> 01:15:11,101
- is built in to those two of a kind.
- 1842
- 01:15:14,311 --> 01:15:16,631
- Well Todd, we're looking
- at the zebras and...
- 1843
- 01:15:16,671 --> 01:15:17,864
- they're all unique,
- 1844
- 01:15:17,889 --> 01:15:19,600
- and yet all of these creatures,
- 1845
- 01:15:19,631 --> 01:15:23,045
- there is so much
- complexity and diversity.
- 1846
- 01:15:23,084 --> 01:15:25,005
- How does the standard story,
- 1847
- 01:15:25,030 --> 01:15:28,092
- the conventional paradigm,
- explain all of that?
- 1848
- 01:15:28,178 --> 01:15:30,225
- Well, they would use evolution, right?
- 1849
- 01:15:30,257 --> 01:15:31,188
- So...
- 1850
- 01:15:31,227 --> 01:15:32,578
- Millions of years,
- 1851
- 01:15:32,617 --> 01:15:34,360
- random variations,
- 1852
- 01:15:34,406 --> 01:15:37,196
- all things that are alive now,
- 1853
- 01:15:37,329 --> 01:15:39,774
- that cactus,
- that zebra,...
- 1854
- 01:15:39,837 --> 01:15:42,257
- the grass here, is all related.
- 1855
- 01:15:42,282 --> 01:15:44,696
- We all go back to a common
- ancestor that lived
- 1856
- 01:15:44,727 --> 01:15:46,243
- billions of years ago.
- 1857
- 01:15:46,313 --> 01:15:51,095
- And through the process of mutation
- and genetic variation...
- 1858
- 01:15:51,157 --> 01:15:52,852
- uh, and natural selection,
- 1859
- 01:15:52,877 --> 01:15:55,141
- and that's where we get
- the stuffs that we have today.
- 1860
- 01:15:55,368 --> 01:15:57,720
- So, natural selection...
- 1861
- 01:15:57,775 --> 01:15:59,406
- uh, what is it?
- 1862
- 01:15:59,431 --> 01:16:01,425
- Does it have the kind of creative
- 1863
- 01:16:01,459 --> 01:16:03,910
- potential that we need
- for all of this?
- 1864
- 01:16:04,011 --> 01:16:07,205
- Natural selection uh,
- is basically all about
- 1865
- 01:16:07,230 --> 01:16:09,589
- killing off things that aren't
- fit for the environment.
- 1866
- 01:16:09,621 --> 01:16:13,066
- So, if you're a finch
- in the Galapagos,...
- 1867
- 01:16:13,105 --> 01:16:15,175
- and you have a really tiny beak,...
- 1868
- 01:16:15,222 --> 01:16:17,238
- and the only food
- available to you is really
- 1869
- 01:16:17,269 --> 01:16:18,947
- - big hard seeds,...
- - Uh-huh.
- 1870
- 01:16:18,972 --> 01:16:20,142
- you're gonna die.
- 1871
- 01:16:20,167 --> 01:16:21,863
- And that's exactly what we observe.
- 1872
- 01:16:21,902 --> 01:16:23,964
- And so, we can watch
- over the generations
- 1873
- 01:16:24,003 --> 01:16:26,410
- that the beak sizes
- of finches change
- 1874
- 01:16:26,457 --> 01:16:27,691
- in the Galapagos.
- 1875
- 01:16:27,746 --> 01:16:29,316
- But, they're still finches.
- 1876
- 01:16:29,371 --> 01:16:30,863
- They're still birds.
- 1877
- 01:16:30,933 --> 01:16:33,667
- The notion that natural
- selection can generate
- 1878
- 01:16:33,699 --> 01:16:34,916
- all of the diversity we see,
- 1879
- 01:16:34,941 --> 01:16:36,527
- that's not been demonstrated.
- 1880
- 01:16:36,557 --> 01:16:37,666
- - Uh-huh.
- - What we find,
- 1881
- 01:16:37,691 --> 01:16:39,471
- most often,
- with natural selection
- 1882
- 01:16:39,496 --> 01:16:42,162
- is that natural selection
- does a lot of fine tunings.
- 1883
- 01:16:42,209 --> 01:16:44,490
- So right over here,
- we got these oryxes, right?
- 1884
- 01:16:44,529 --> 01:16:45,951
- Beautiful creatures,...
- 1885
- 01:16:45,991 --> 01:16:48,506
- and very, very pale colors.
- 1886
- 01:16:48,553 --> 01:16:53,657
- The wild ranges of the oryx is right on
- the southern end of Sahara Desert.
- 1887
- 01:16:53,750 --> 01:16:55,235
- - And so you can see...
- - Uh-huh.
- 1888
- 01:16:55,274 --> 01:16:57,032
- yeah, their coloration makes sense.
- 1889
- 01:16:57,063 --> 01:16:58,703
- If you get a really dark color one
- 1890
- 01:16:58,735 --> 01:17:00,125
- that's gonna be very easy for
- 1891
- 01:17:00,157 --> 01:17:01,524
- - predators to find,
- - Uh-huh.
- 1892
- 01:17:01,555 --> 01:17:04,870
- and so they end up being
- these really beautiful light colors.
- 1893
- 01:17:04,925 --> 01:17:08,253
- Uh, and that's an example of
- where selection would take...
- 1894
- 01:17:08,300 --> 01:17:11,458
- a variation and turn it
- into an adaptation.
- 1895
- 01:17:11,521 --> 01:17:14,333
- And that brings us back
- to the notion that...
- 1896
- 01:17:14,365 --> 01:17:17,154
- a really exquisite design
- in the beginning.
- 1897
- 01:17:17,179 --> 01:17:18,191
- - Oh, I think so.
- - It...
- 1898
- 01:17:18,216 --> 01:17:19,310
- - Oh, absolutely.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1899
- 01:17:19,365 --> 01:17:21,826
- It has provided these creatures
- with the ability
- 1900
- 01:17:21,865 --> 01:17:24,591
- to survive and to, to change
- 1901
- 01:17:24,630 --> 01:17:26,257
- - for their benefit.
- - Absolutely.
- 1902
- 01:17:26,296 --> 01:17:29,842
- So the ability to be able
- to change your coloration like that,
- 1903
- 01:17:29,867 --> 01:17:31,492
- to be able to fit in an environment,
- 1904
- 01:17:31,554 --> 01:17:34,931
- that's got to be built into
- the system before it starts.
- 1905
- 01:17:34,970 --> 01:17:35,986
- Now, don't get me wrong.
- 1906
- 01:17:36,011 --> 01:17:39,267
- I mean, that those selections and
- random variations can do amazing things.
- 1907
- 01:17:39,306 --> 01:17:41,558
- I mean, it, it's pretty astonishing...
- 1908
- 01:17:41,668 --> 01:17:44,230
- the kind of changes that we can see,...
- 1909
- 01:17:44,281 --> 01:17:47,222
- but we don't see one kind
- changing into another.
- 1910
- 01:17:47,285 --> 01:17:49,058
- All we see are variations...
- 1911
- 01:17:49,098 --> 01:17:51,035
- - that happened within a created kind.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1912
- 01:17:51,068 --> 01:17:53,666
- There is a felid tree
- which has all the cats on it.
- 1913
- 01:17:53,691 --> 01:17:56,097
- There is a canid tree
- which has all the dogs on it.
- 1914
- 01:17:56,128 --> 01:17:58,761
- There is an ursid tree
- which has all the bears on it.
- 1915
- 01:17:58,786 --> 01:18:00,763
- There is an equid tree
- with all the horses on it.
- 1916
- 01:18:00,810 --> 01:18:05,187
- Each individual created kind then
- has its own individual tree.
- 1917
- 01:18:05,218 --> 01:18:08,234
- So that you end up with
- something like an orchard or forest.
- 1918
- 01:18:08,289 --> 01:18:09,546
- As a scientist,
- 1919
- 01:18:09,571 --> 01:18:12,648
- it seems, what you're saying is
- the Genesis paradigm...
- 1920
- 01:18:12,687 --> 01:18:15,484
- answers all of this data better.
- 1921
- 01:18:15,570 --> 01:18:16,945
- Ultimately, I think it does,
- 1922
- 01:18:16,970 --> 01:18:19,976
- because it embraces both
- similarity and difference.
- 1923
- 01:18:20,031 --> 01:18:21,539
- Now, as we already said,
- 1924
- 01:18:21,564 --> 01:18:24,962
- there are just, there are a lot of
- questions that are still out there.
- 1925
- 01:18:25,017 --> 01:18:26,025
- But,...
- 1926
- 01:18:26,080 --> 01:18:28,471
- uh, I'm pretty confident,
- given what...
- 1927
- 01:18:28,525 --> 01:18:29,953
- our paradigm can explain,
- 1928
- 01:18:29,978 --> 01:18:33,339
- I am very confident that those
- answers are going to be found.
- 1929
- 01:18:34,214 --> 01:18:35,775
- After we left the zebras,
- 1930
- 01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:37,568
- we made our way to the gorillas.
- 1931
- 01:18:37,652 --> 01:18:41,763
- Todd wanted to talk about
- the question of human evolution.
- 1932
- 01:18:42,256 --> 01:18:43,860
- Todd, we see it all the time,
- 1933
- 01:18:43,891 --> 01:18:46,212
- a new discovery,
- new skulls,...
- 1934
- 01:18:46,256 --> 01:18:48,008
- new skeletons that...
- 1935
- 01:18:48,071 --> 01:18:51,594
- supposedly solidify this whole link.
- 1936
- 01:18:51,667 --> 01:18:53,393
- - Yeah.
- - What do you see there?
- 1937
- 01:18:53,432 --> 01:18:56,260
- Absolutely. Well, I got some
- right here in my bag.
- 1938
- 01:18:57,284 --> 01:18:58,354
- Oh, a skull.
- 1939
- 01:18:58,379 --> 01:19:00,143
- So, this guy...
- 1940
- 01:19:00,550 --> 01:19:03,346
- is a Neandertal.
- 1941
- 01:19:03,550 --> 01:19:05,357
- Very, very low forehead.
- 1942
- 01:19:05,404 --> 01:19:07,631
- - To we have very tall foreheads.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1943
- 01:19:07,693 --> 01:19:09,521
- Uh, the face,
- 1944
- 01:19:09,576 --> 01:19:11,724
- the mid-face has been pulled out.
- 1945
- 01:19:11,779 --> 01:19:14,130
- - Uh-huh.
- - Uh, but at the same time,...
- 1946
- 01:19:14,217 --> 01:19:15,950
- well, it looks very human.
- 1947
- 01:19:16,005 --> 01:19:17,044
- - So that's the Neandertal.
- - Okay.
- 1948
- 01:19:17,069 --> 01:19:18,044
- - You want to hold it on for me?
- - Yeah, yeah.
- 1949
- 01:19:18,075 --> 01:19:18,904
- Okay?
- 1950
- 01:19:18,966 --> 01:19:20,950
- We have others
- that are very different.
- 1951
- 01:19:20,998 --> 01:19:22,247
- Oh, yeah.
- 1952
- 01:19:22,287 --> 01:19:24,428
- Now, this one is...
- 1953
- 01:19:24,513 --> 01:19:26,419
- Australopithecus Africanus.
- 1954
- 01:19:26,458 --> 01:19:27,733
- So, you can see,...
- 1955
- 01:19:27,781 --> 01:19:29,685
- really no forehead at all.
- 1956
- 01:19:29,710 --> 01:19:31,279
- - It's just slopes right back.
- - Uh-huh.
- 1957
- 01:19:31,304 --> 01:19:33,718
- Very, very small brain case,...
- 1958
- 01:19:33,781 --> 01:19:36,336
- uh, muscle sticks way out,...
- 1959
- 01:19:36,413 --> 01:19:39,532
- so the flace faces slope forward.
- 1960
- 01:19:39,784 --> 01:19:41,446
- What do you do with this stuff?
- 1961
- 01:19:41,485 --> 01:19:43,239
- I mean, there is many more
- that we can show,
- 1962
- 01:19:43,270 --> 01:19:44,880
- many more pictures,
- many more skulls,
- 1963
- 01:19:44,911 --> 01:19:46,329
- and you can see looking at the...
- 1964
- 01:19:46,354 --> 01:19:48,704
- - Bringing them together, they're really...
- - Yeah. Uh-huh.
- 1965
- 01:19:49,090 --> 01:19:51,067
- - There is a lot of difference there.
- - Yeah.
- 1966
- 01:19:51,137 --> 01:19:52,541
- Well, here's the thing.
- 1967
- 01:19:52,576 --> 01:19:55,252
- So all that created kind stuffs
- that we already talked about,
- 1968
- 01:19:55,287 --> 01:19:56,842
- I can show...
- 1969
- 01:19:56,889 --> 01:20:00,100
- again and again and again
- with multiple studies...
- 1970
- 01:20:00,180 --> 01:20:03,758
- that I can find the discontinuity
- between humans...
- 1971
- 01:20:03,821 --> 01:20:05,587
- and nonhumans.
- 1972
- 01:20:05,633 --> 01:20:07,899
- So this thing lands
- on the human side.
- 1973
- 01:20:07,926 --> 01:20:11,526
- This Neandertal here is one of us.
- 1974
- 01:20:11,643 --> 01:20:13,666
- - This thing is not.
- - Hhh.
- 1975
- 01:20:13,697 --> 01:20:14,838
- It is different.
- 1976
- 01:20:14,877 --> 01:20:17,098
- But, this would be just
- another one of those...
- 1977
- 01:20:17,137 --> 01:20:20,527
- varieties of living things that
- God made in the beginning
- 1978
- 01:20:20,559 --> 01:20:22,817
- and it survive the flood
- and board the ark.
- 1979
- 01:20:22,856 --> 01:20:26,467
- So when we look at uh,
- Neanderthal man,...
- 1980
- 01:20:26,624 --> 01:20:29,952
- uh, we're looking at a, a human,...
- 1981
- 01:20:30,085 --> 01:20:33,592
- uh, but it's a human that
- just like we find in dogs,
- 1982
- 01:20:33,631 --> 01:20:36,295
- we have a lot of
- varieties of, of dogs...
- 1983
- 01:20:36,335 --> 01:20:38,126
- We got a lot of varieties of people.
- 1984
- 01:20:38,181 --> 01:20:39,915
- So even looking back here at the gorilla,
- 1985
- 01:20:39,939 --> 01:20:40,946
- we can see...
- 1986
- 01:20:40,985 --> 01:20:43,252
- the obvious differences
- between us and him.
- 1987
- 01:20:43,287 --> 01:20:45,142
- Not the least of which is
- that he's in there...
- 1988
- 01:20:45,167 --> 01:20:47,114
- and we, we can go home
- when we're done.
- 1989
- 01:20:47,177 --> 01:20:50,833
- And so those differences
- are really huge, aren't they?
- 1990
- 01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:52,607
- Uh, yeah, absolutely.
- 1991
- 01:20:52,653 --> 01:20:53,966
- The image of God...
- 1992
- 01:20:54,029 --> 01:20:56,317
- entails this idea of...
- 1993
- 01:20:56,380 --> 01:20:58,724
- being God's representatives
- here on this Earth.
- 1994
- 01:20:58,763 --> 01:21:01,825
- Part of that, there is having
- dominion and having authority.
- 1995
- 01:21:01,864 --> 01:21:03,817
- A spiritual quality
- that we have, you know,
- 1996
- 01:21:03,888 --> 01:21:05,452
- - that we don't share...
- - Uh-huh.
- 1997
- 01:21:05,484 --> 01:21:07,444
- - with animals like that.
- - Yeah.
- 1998
- 01:21:08,527 --> 01:21:11,114
- It's obvious we're different
- from the rest of creation.
- 1999
- 01:21:11,163 --> 01:21:13,372
- Because we were made in God's image.
- 2000
- 01:21:13,431 --> 01:21:15,251
- We're the only ones to create zoos.
- 2001
- 01:21:15,290 --> 01:21:17,751
- So, we can see the beauty
- of God's animals.
- 2002
- 01:21:17,790 --> 01:21:20,024
- And we're unique in tracking time
- 2003
- 01:21:20,049 --> 01:21:22,356
- and want to know our own history.
- 2004
- 01:21:22,459 --> 01:21:25,903
- But, where does our concept
- of time come from?
- 2005
- 01:21:38,058 --> 01:21:39,925
- It was a beautiful night.
- 2006
- 01:21:40,003 --> 01:21:41,893
- Danny took me far outside the city.
- 2007
- 01:21:41,924 --> 01:21:43,268
- And kept me up very late
- 2008
- 01:21:43,300 --> 01:21:46,729
- in order to show something
- I will never forget.
- 2009
- 01:21:48,636 --> 01:21:49,925
- Oh my goodness!
- 2010
- 01:21:49,956 --> 01:21:52,699
- Now you're gonna
- make me buy a telescope.
- 2011
- 01:21:54,455 --> 01:21:57,011
- You know, we have some purposes
- that were given from the stars.
- 2012
- 01:21:57,058 --> 01:22:00,360
- In, in Genesis 1:14 to 19,
- that's day 4...
- 2013
- 01:22:00,391 --> 01:22:03,159
- uh, creation calendar, mentions
- the stars and other heavenly bodies
- 2014
- 01:22:03,190 --> 01:22:04,214
- - that mark time,
- - Hhh.
- 2015
- 01:22:04,249 --> 01:22:06,071
- to rule over the night,
- to be for sign,
- 2016
- 01:22:06,103 --> 01:22:08,033
- seasons, festivals and so forth.
- 2017
- 01:22:08,079 --> 01:22:10,079
- Uh, people have been using the stars
- 2018
- 01:22:10,119 --> 01:22:12,728
- - for, for marking, passing of time.
- - Uh-huh.
- 2019
- 01:22:12,753 --> 01:22:14,556
- The patterns repeat every night.
- 2020
- 01:22:14,581 --> 01:22:15,728
- They repeated every year.
- 2021
- 01:22:15,753 --> 01:22:17,071
- They, they come back.
- 2022
- 01:22:17,095 --> 01:22:18,204
- And the season,
- 2023
- 01:22:18,229 --> 01:22:20,610
- - it's a lot of regularity going on here.
- - Uh-huh.
- 2024
- 01:22:20,673 --> 01:22:23,329
- Uh, what about the design
- of the sun and the moon?
- 2025
- 01:22:23,354 --> 01:22:24,845
- Well, there're a couple of things
- I can talk about.
- 2026
- 01:22:24,899 --> 01:22:28,229
- On rare occasions, the, the moon
- passes between us and our sun.
- 2027
- 01:22:28,254 --> 01:22:29,760
- - Uh-huh.
- - Doesn't happen very often.
- 2028
- 01:22:29,792 --> 01:22:31,174
- And when that happens,
- 2029
- 01:22:31,199 --> 01:22:33,629
- the, the moon just barely
- covers the sun up.
- 2030
- 01:22:33,654 --> 01:22:36,518
- If the moon were a little smaller
- or little farther away,
- 2031
- 01:22:36,557 --> 01:22:38,075
- it wouldn't do it at all.
- 2032
- 01:22:38,113 --> 01:22:40,629
- If it were larger or closer to us,
- 2033
- 01:22:40,668 --> 01:22:42,504
- it would be grossly over total.
- 2034
- 01:22:42,536 --> 01:22:43,551
- - Uh-huh.
- - And uh,
- 2035
- 01:22:43,591 --> 01:22:46,479
- So these eclipses are,
- are spectacular and rare,
- 2036
- 01:22:46,504 --> 01:22:49,192
- and this is the only planet
- on which it matters.
- 2037
- 01:22:49,226 --> 01:22:51,390
- And it's the only planet
- on which it happens.
- 2038
- 01:22:51,429 --> 01:22:54,861
- And you got to think either just
- that's the way the world is,...
- 2039
- 01:22:54,892 --> 01:22:56,642
- for no apparent reason,...
- 2040
- 01:22:56,677 --> 01:22:59,689
- or the world is that way
- for a purpose and design.
- 2041
- 01:22:59,721 --> 01:23:01,853
- And to me,
- that speaks of creation.
- 2042
- 01:23:02,270 --> 01:23:03,512
- Okay, high over head here,
- 2043
- 01:23:03,537 --> 01:23:05,176
- we have the great square of Pegasus.
- 2044
- 01:23:05,201 --> 01:23:06,817
- it is this big regtangle.
- 2045
- 01:23:06,842 --> 01:23:10,250
- Now coming off of Pegasus is
- a little fuzzy spot right there.
- 2046
- 01:23:10,280 --> 01:23:11,304
- - You see it?
- - Yeah.
- 2047
- 01:23:11,329 --> 01:23:12,954
- That's the Andromeda Galaxy.
- 2048
- 01:23:13,039 --> 01:23:16,719
- That is the most distant object
- that you can see with the naked eye.
- 2049
- 01:23:16,750 --> 01:23:18,452
- It's a little over,
- we think, a little over
- 2050
- 01:23:18,477 --> 01:23:19,735
- two million light years away,
- 2051
- 01:23:19,766 --> 01:23:21,735
- and it contains a couple
- hundred billion stars.
- 2052
- 01:23:21,774 --> 01:23:22,501
- Wow.
- 2053
- 01:23:22,526 --> 01:23:24,366
- Okay, Danny,
- that brings me to...
- 2054
- 01:23:24,397 --> 01:23:27,546
- a big question, a big question
- in a lot of people's minds.
- 2055
- 01:23:27,593 --> 01:23:30,822
- If we have stars
- that are that far away,
- 2056
- 01:23:30,847 --> 01:23:32,999
- million of light years away,
- 2057
- 01:23:33,132 --> 01:23:35,452
- and if the Earth is young,
- 2058
- 01:23:35,515 --> 01:23:37,281
- as we believe,
- 2059
- 01:23:37,384 --> 01:23:40,740
- then how in the world
- can the starlight be here?
- 2060
- 01:23:40,765 --> 01:23:41,413
- Yeah.
- 2061
- 01:23:41,438 --> 01:23:44,186
- We call this the, the light
- travel time problem.
- 2062
- 01:23:44,241 --> 01:23:47,061
- And I'll try to phrase it for you
- little, little differently.
- 2063
- 01:23:47,108 --> 01:23:50,819
- Uh, we believe that if creation is
- only thousands of years old,
- 2064
- 01:23:50,882 --> 01:23:53,140
- uh, say 6,000 years,
- 7,000 years,
- 2065
- 01:23:53,165 --> 01:23:54,429
- - something like that.
- - Uh-huh.
- 2066
- 01:23:54,454 --> 01:23:56,032
- And I just pointed out
- something to you
- 2067
- 01:23:56,057 --> 01:23:58,291
- that we think, it's 2 million
- light years away from us.
- 2068
- 01:23:58,361 --> 01:24:00,572
- I think those distances
- are reasonably correct.
- 2069
- 01:24:00,618 --> 01:24:03,065
- And uh, we creationists
- need to answer this question.
- 2070
- 01:24:03,097 --> 01:24:06,761
- And we've offered several
- different solutions to that.
- 2071
- 01:24:06,801 --> 01:24:09,589
- - I'll discuss with you my solution...
- - OK.
- 2072
- 01:24:09,628 --> 01:24:10,667
- on this.
- 2073
- 01:24:10,701 --> 01:24:13,121
- Several, several things jump out
- at me in the creation account.
- 2074
- 01:24:13,128 --> 01:24:15,679
- One, there are a lot
- of process going on,
- 2075
- 01:24:15,704 --> 01:24:18,242
- very rapid process, but still process.
- 2076
- 01:24:18,279 --> 01:24:19,834
- Uh, if you look at
- the day 3 account,
- 2077
- 01:24:19,861 --> 01:24:22,246
- it talks about plants,
- rising up above the ground.
- 2078
- 01:24:22,271 --> 01:24:24,819
- It says, let the Earth
- bring forth these plants,
- 2079
- 01:24:24,844 --> 01:24:26,174
- and the Earth brought forth.
- 2080
- 01:24:26,213 --> 01:24:27,998
- I think if you would have been there,
- it would have looked like
- 2081
- 01:24:28,023 --> 01:24:29,815
- - a time lapse movie.
- - Hhh.
- 2082
- 01:24:29,846 --> 01:24:31,893
- Growth might take normally decades,
- 2083
- 01:24:31,940 --> 01:24:35,604
- taking place in a matter of minutes
- or hours at the most.
- 2084
- 01:24:35,663 --> 01:24:36,911
- Uh, normal growth,...
- 2085
- 01:24:36,958 --> 01:24:39,278
- - abnormally fast.
- - Hhh.
- 2086
- 01:24:39,372 --> 01:24:40,676
- I believe, you can interpret...
- 2087
- 01:24:40,701 --> 01:24:42,927
- one day of creation
- in terms of another day.
- 2088
- 01:24:42,958 --> 01:24:44,583
- So I turn to the day 4 account,
- 2089
- 01:24:44,608 --> 01:24:46,130
- not much information is given there.
- 2090
- 01:24:46,155 --> 01:24:49,012
- But I think, God also
- rapidly made the stars
- 2091
- 01:24:49,044 --> 01:24:50,669
- and other astronomical bodies.
- 2092
- 01:24:50,700 --> 01:24:54,333
- And then, in order for them
- to fulfill their function to be seen,
- 2093
- 01:24:54,360 --> 01:24:56,598
- He had to rapidly
- bring forth that light.
- 2094
- 01:24:56,625 --> 01:24:59,176
- Just as He brought plants
- and matured quickly,
- 2095
- 01:24:59,229 --> 01:25:01,190
- - He had to bring light here.
- - Uh-huh.
- 2096
- 01:25:01,229 --> 01:25:03,682
- I'm suggesting when we
- actually look at these objects,
- 2097
- 01:25:03,707 --> 01:25:06,232
- like the Andromeda galaxy
- we saw a few minutes ago,
- 2098
- 01:25:06,272 --> 01:25:09,379
- we're looking at light
- that actually left that object.
- 2099
- 01:25:09,404 --> 01:25:10,044
- Yes.
- 2100
- 01:25:10,075 --> 01:25:11,576
- So I think, there is rapid maturing
- 2101
- 01:25:11,601 --> 01:25:12,788
- - took place.
- - Yeah.
- 2102
- 01:25:12,920 --> 01:25:16,138
- Danny, are there some
- other things that you see
- 2103
- 01:25:16,163 --> 01:25:19,654
- that would point to
- a young universe?
- 2104
- 01:25:19,689 --> 01:25:20,800
- I think so.
- 2105
- 01:25:20,839 --> 01:25:22,786
- For instance, uh, spiral galaxies.
- 2106
- 01:25:22,811 --> 01:25:24,693
- So, Andromeda Galaxy,
- we talked about,
- 2107
- 01:25:24,724 --> 01:25:25,925
- - is a spiral galaxy.
- - Uh-huh.
- 2108
- 01:25:25,950 --> 01:25:27,122
- Our own is.
- 2109
- 01:25:27,162 --> 01:25:30,396
- And the inside of the galaxies
- should spin faster
- 2110
- 01:25:30,421 --> 01:25:31,755
- than the outside of the galaxies.
- 2111
- 01:25:31,794 --> 01:25:33,419
- So after few rotations,
- 2112
- 01:25:33,490 --> 01:25:35,904
- you ought to wind up or smear out.
- 2113
- 01:25:35,942 --> 01:25:37,107
- Those, those spiral patterns,
- 2114
- 01:25:37,138 --> 01:25:39,507
- they ought to disappear
- after few rotations.
- 2115
- 01:25:39,548 --> 01:25:42,060
- Now, most astronomers think
- that the spiral galaxies are
- 2116
- 01:25:42,099 --> 01:25:43,177
- 10 billion years old.
- 2117
- 01:25:43,216 --> 01:25:45,730
- So, why do we still see
- spiral patterns?
- 2118
- 01:25:45,755 --> 01:25:47,154
- - You shouldn't see those.
- - Right.
- 2119
- 01:25:47,193 --> 01:25:49,412
- And it has been long
- recognized this is problem.
- 2120
- 01:25:49,443 --> 01:25:51,240
- But also, if we look at the um,
- 2121
- 01:25:51,265 --> 01:25:53,677
- the outer planets of the solar
- system, the gas giants,
- 2122
- 01:25:53,701 --> 01:25:54,803
- they all have rings.
- 2123
- 01:25:54,845 --> 01:25:57,638
- And we also know that
- these things are changing.
- 2124
- 01:25:57,663 --> 01:25:58,794
- They're wiping out.
- 2125
- 01:25:58,833 --> 01:26:02,203
- They've actually documented changes that
- have taken place within the ring system.
- 2126
- 01:26:02,228 --> 01:26:06,110
- You have all these gravitational tugs
- from the other satellites, orbiting around.
- 2127
- 01:26:06,153 --> 01:26:08,928
- So these ring systems are fairly young.
- 2128
- 01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:10,725
- Doesn't prove that
- the solar system is young,
- 2129
- 01:26:10,750 --> 01:26:12,686
- but it proves that these
- ring systems are young.
- 2130
- 01:26:12,711 --> 01:26:14,225
- - Uh-huh.
- - And that's interesting.
- 2131
- 01:26:14,296 --> 01:26:16,132
- Well, you mentioned a, a lot of...
- 2132
- 01:26:16,163 --> 01:26:19,210
- theories about the spirals
- and, and so forth,...
- 2133
- 01:26:19,249 --> 01:26:20,983
- uh, that brings us to...
- 2134
- 01:26:21,022 --> 01:26:23,413
- what most people see as the big theory,
- 2135
- 01:26:23,460 --> 01:26:25,997
- - concerning cosmology and the universe,
- - Uh-huh.
- 2136
- 01:26:26,015 --> 01:26:27,554
- and that the Big Bang.
- 2137
- 01:26:27,608 --> 01:26:29,250
- Uh, how do you see that?
- 2138
- 01:26:29,275 --> 01:26:31,219
- Is it holding up over time?
- 2139
- 01:26:31,244 --> 01:26:32,250
- I don't think so.
- 2140
- 01:26:32,275 --> 01:26:34,681
- I think it's, it's getting
- some problems.
- 2141
- 01:26:34,728 --> 01:26:36,189
- - Hhh.
- - So much so that
- 2142
- 01:26:36,214 --> 01:26:37,668
- more than a dozen years ago,
- 2143
- 01:26:37,693 --> 01:26:39,103
- I think, in New Scientist Magazine,
- 2144
- 01:26:39,128 --> 01:26:41,697
- there was an open letter,
- protesting the Big Bang theory.
- 2145
- 01:26:41,728 --> 01:26:43,847
- And it has hundreds of signatures since.
- 2146
- 01:26:43,878 --> 01:26:45,682
- And most people signing are atheists.
- 2147
- 01:26:45,707 --> 01:26:47,463
- They are not even creationists.
- 2148
- 01:26:47,488 --> 01:26:51,136
- So, this idea that the Big Bang model's
- universally accepted is not true.
- 2149
- 01:26:51,161 --> 01:26:52,486
- There are many people out there,
- 2150
- 01:26:52,511 --> 01:26:54,168
- well, well, known people,
- 2151
- 01:26:54,199 --> 01:26:56,894
- very famous physic
- and astronomy people
- 2152
- 01:26:56,933 --> 01:26:58,878
- that have real problems with the Big Bang.
- 2153
- 01:26:58,916 --> 01:27:01,927
- And, and I don't see any way
- that you can reconcile
- 2154
- 01:27:01,952 --> 01:27:03,301
- the Big Bang with the Bible,
- 2155
- 01:27:03,326 --> 01:27:05,458
- though, a lot of people
- seem to think that you can.
- 2156
- 01:27:05,498 --> 01:27:07,177
- I think, the temptation
- they have there
- 2157
- 01:27:07,209 --> 01:27:08,811
- is to try to interpret...
- 2158
- 01:27:08,849 --> 01:27:12,449
- uh, Scripture in terms of
- the current cosmological thinking.
- 2159
- 01:27:12,474 --> 01:27:14,863
- That's nothing new.
- That has happened before,
- 2160
- 01:27:14,895 --> 01:27:17,231
- as it turns out,
- with disastrous results.
- 2161
- 01:27:17,277 --> 01:27:19,686
- So I, I think when you look at
- the history of science,
- 2162
- 01:27:19,717 --> 01:27:21,920
- the way we have discarded
- theories over time,
- 2163
- 01:27:21,952 --> 01:27:24,311
- We've had theories
- that were supposedly...
- 2164
- 01:27:24,390 --> 01:27:26,775
- uh, beyond dispute...
- 2165
- 01:27:26,814 --> 01:27:28,827
- - Uh-huh.
- - and then later on discarded.
- 2166
- 01:27:28,881 --> 01:27:31,898
- Uh, when you see
- that lesson from history
- 2167
- 01:27:31,923 --> 01:27:33,595
- and then you want to wed Genesis,
- 2168
- 01:27:33,642 --> 01:27:36,563
- you want to interpret Genesis
- in terms of ruling paradigm,
- 2169
- 01:27:36,595 --> 01:27:39,191
- - I think you need to be very careful.
- - Hhh, yeah.
- 2170
- 01:27:40,566 --> 01:27:44,628
- I realized, Danny was
- re-orienting our perspective.
- 2171
- 01:27:44,823 --> 01:27:48,107
- We need to interpret the Universe,
- in terms of Genesis,
- 2172
- 01:27:48,154 --> 01:27:50,318
- not the other way around.
- 2173
- 01:27:50,427 --> 01:27:54,711
- And Genesis tells us that God
- created the sun, moon, and stars
- 2174
- 01:27:54,742 --> 01:27:58,804
- to be a magnificent clock
- to track the passage of time.
- 2175
- 01:27:58,898 --> 01:28:02,359
- Even the ancient built towers
- to follow the stars.
- 2176
- 01:28:02,437 --> 01:28:04,951
- But what does Genesis say
- about those people
- 2177
- 01:28:04,976 --> 01:28:07,344
- and the languages they spoke?
- 2178
- 01:28:16,522 --> 01:28:20,491
- Doug took me to one of the best
- archaeological museums in the world,
- 2179
- 01:28:20,522 --> 01:28:23,006
- to show some of the unique artifacts
- 2180
- 01:28:23,061 --> 01:28:25,303
- that relate to Genesis.
- 2181
- 01:28:26,763 --> 01:28:29,316
- Well, the events of
- the Bible are unfolded
- 2182
- 01:28:29,351 --> 01:28:30,621
- in the ancient Near East.
- 2183
- 01:28:30,646 --> 01:28:34,601
- So, all these lands are extremely
- important to understanding...
- 2184
- 01:28:34,656 --> 01:28:37,671
- uh, how and what took place
- in the biblical text.
- 2185
- 01:28:37,726 --> 01:28:41,078
- So, this picks up the events
- we've been looking at in, in Genesis,
- 2186
- 01:28:41,103 --> 01:28:43,008
- from Creation and the Flood,
- 2187
- 01:28:43,033 --> 01:28:45,839
- and now, we're to
- the dispersion of mankind
- 2188
- 01:28:45,871 --> 01:28:47,574
- out of Noah and his family.
- 2189
- 01:28:47,605 --> 01:28:48,488
- Exactly.
- 2190
- 01:28:48,535 --> 01:28:50,472
- And the, the dispersion
- would have taken place
- 2191
- 01:28:50,503 --> 01:28:53,824
- somewhere in the mountain range
- to the northwest of Mesopotamia.
- 2192
- 01:28:53,871 --> 01:28:56,964
- And what we see in the biblical text
- and the narrative is that
- 2193
- 01:28:56,989 --> 01:28:59,231
- a number of people have migrated
- 2194
- 01:28:59,278 --> 01:29:03,109
- uh, down to southern Mesopotamia,
- to the land of Shinar,...
- 2195
- 01:29:03,134 --> 01:29:06,108
- and move toward the process
- of urbanization,
- 2196
- 01:29:06,163 --> 01:29:07,366
- - Uh-huh.
- - city living.
- 2197
- 01:29:07,413 --> 01:29:09,436
- And that's the famous
- Tower of Babel.
- 2198
- 01:29:09,483 --> 01:29:10,302
- Absolutely.
- 2199
- 01:29:10,327 --> 01:29:12,007
- Do we know where that is?
- 2200
- 01:29:12,061 --> 01:29:14,804
- There are about 7 or 8 Babels,
- 2201
- 01:29:14,829 --> 01:29:16,821
- - cities of Babel,
- - Huh.
- 2202
- 01:29:16,853 --> 01:29:19,235
- in the ancient area of Mesopotamia.
- 2203
- 01:29:19,266 --> 01:29:22,001
- And so, one at a time,
- I studied all of those areas...
- 2204
- 01:29:22,032 --> 01:29:25,266
- and found only one that
- meets all the criteria of...
- 2205
- 01:29:25,321 --> 01:29:28,282
- - the famous site of the Tower of Babel.
- - Hhh.
- 2206
- 01:29:28,323 --> 01:29:30,220
- And that is site of Eridu,
- 2207
- 01:29:30,245 --> 01:29:33,466
- which is in southeastern Mesopotamia.
- 2208
- 01:29:33,513 --> 01:29:36,278
- We have signs of
- the expansion to the North,
- 2209
- 01:29:36,349 --> 01:29:38,763
- to the South,
- to the East,
- 2210
- 01:29:38,841 --> 01:29:41,718
- to the West,
- all the way as far as Egypt.
- 2211
- 01:29:41,781 --> 01:29:43,866
- And when you say evidence, uh,
- 2212
- 01:29:43,906 --> 01:29:46,757
- that is the artifacts
- that we find in these...
- 2213
- 01:29:46,788 --> 01:29:48,146
- archaeological digs?
- 2214
- 01:29:48,171 --> 01:29:50,235
- Exactly.
- There is an enormous
- 2215
- 01:29:50,275 --> 01:29:55,579
- a, amount and very
- specific kind of material culture...
- 2216
- 01:29:55,626 --> 01:29:58,277
- that attest to this expansion of people.
- 2217
- 01:29:58,308 --> 01:30:01,457
- And I'm connecting to
- the post Babel dispersion.
- 2218
- 01:30:01,482 --> 01:30:03,494
- Uh, here are the beveled rim bowls,
- 2219
- 01:30:03,519 --> 01:30:04,583
- - these two,
- - Uh-huh.
- 2220
- 01:30:04,608 --> 01:30:06,010
- just that Riemchen brick...
- 2221
- 01:30:06,050 --> 01:30:07,477
- - that we see up there,
- - Oh, yeah.
- 2222
- 01:30:07,502 --> 01:30:10,080
- and those two spouted jars,
- 2223
- 01:30:10,105 --> 01:30:14,474
- all these diagnostic forms
- of pottery and material culture,
- 2224
- 01:30:14,513 --> 01:30:16,724
- they're found throughout the Near East.
- 2225
- 01:30:16,755 --> 01:30:20,410
- The Bible describes an event that's not
- just the confusion of language,
- 2226
- 01:30:20,435 --> 01:30:22,505
- but the dispersing of people...
- 2227
- 01:30:22,537 --> 01:30:24,389
- - far from that city.
- - Uh-huh.
- 2228
- 01:30:24,420 --> 01:30:26,352
- And because we see language
- 2229
- 01:30:26,399 --> 01:30:28,680
- or, or the written
- expression of language,
- 2230
- 01:30:28,727 --> 01:30:30,524
- - just pop up out of nowhere.
- - Hhh.
- 2231
- 01:30:30,549 --> 01:30:32,749
- And then different languages
- 2232
- 01:30:32,774 --> 01:30:35,660
- being represented
- through cuneiform script
- 2233
- 01:30:35,692 --> 01:30:38,621
- or through hieroglyphic script
- or, or other means.
- 2234
- 01:30:38,653 --> 01:30:41,694
- So you do not have
- a universal plan
- 2235
- 01:30:41,726 --> 01:30:43,679
- that's followed among
- all of those languages.
- 2236
- 01:30:43,710 --> 01:30:47,353
- You see great diversity
- in the forms of grammar,
- 2237
- 01:30:47,384 --> 01:30:50,587
- from language to language
- even in ancient languages.
- 2238
- 01:30:50,641 --> 01:30:52,376
- It, it seems then that
- 2239
- 01:30:52,401 --> 01:30:54,658
- the event recorded in Genesis...
- 2240
- 01:30:54,689 --> 01:30:56,407
- about the Tower of Babel,
- 2241
- 01:30:56,446 --> 01:30:59,518
- that's a very, very event
- for archeology.
- 2242
- 01:30:59,550 --> 01:31:00,470
- It is.
- 2243
- 01:31:00,495 --> 01:31:02,573
- So all of this fits perfectly
- 2244
- 01:31:02,612 --> 01:31:05,118
- with what we, we would see
- as the biblical account...
- 2245
- 01:31:05,143 --> 01:31:07,321
- of how languages took place.
- 2246
- 01:31:07,346 --> 01:31:10,284
- It's, it's really the only way
- of explaining this.
- 2247
- 01:31:10,331 --> 01:31:12,503
- So the integrity of biblical history,
- 2248
- 01:31:12,542 --> 01:31:14,331
- ultimately, is justified,...
- 2249
- 01:31:14,393 --> 01:31:16,682
- by the expression of these languages.
- 2250
- 01:31:16,729 --> 01:31:20,817
- Now, most of us think today
- of a tower the kind of thing
- 2251
- 01:31:20,850 --> 01:31:24,070
- we see in big cities,
- they have big straight walls.
- 2252
- 01:31:24,095 --> 01:31:25,651
- Is that what they were building?
- 2253
- 01:31:25,686 --> 01:31:28,495
- Well, essentially,
- it's a variation of the pyramid.
- 2254
- 01:31:28,527 --> 01:31:30,128
- And there were four sides to it
- 2255
- 01:31:30,160 --> 01:31:33,043
- and several stairways
- that would go up to the top.
- 2256
- 01:31:33,089 --> 01:31:35,239
- At Eridu,
- we have a temple...
- 2257
- 01:31:35,279 --> 01:31:37,279
- that existed in 18 different phases,
- 2258
- 01:31:37,304 --> 01:31:40,521
- and in every phase,
- it grew in its size and complexity.
- 2259
- 01:31:40,568 --> 01:31:41,394
- Uh-huh.
- 2260
- 01:31:41,419 --> 01:31:44,659
- And that final temple,
- that final phase of the temple,
- 2261
- 01:31:44,694 --> 01:31:47,351
- it was abandoned immediately,
- 2262
- 01:31:47,413 --> 01:31:49,593
- right at the time
- of the late Uruk
- 2263
- 01:31:49,632 --> 01:31:50,638
- - expansion.
- - Hhh.
- 2264
- 01:31:50,663 --> 01:31:56,488
- Cater-cornered to the temple was
- an absolutely enormous platform.
- 2265
- 01:31:56,535 --> 01:31:59,659
- You think that could be the foundation
- of the Tower of Babel?
- 2266
- 01:31:59,684 --> 01:32:00,462
- Absolutely.
- 2267
- 01:32:00,487 --> 01:32:02,024
- And I would suggest to you...
- 2268
- 01:32:02,049 --> 01:32:04,604
- - that this late Uruk expansion...
- - Hhh.
- 2269
- 01:32:04,659 --> 01:32:06,714
- where this technology began...
- 2270
- 01:32:06,739 --> 01:32:08,870
- was something that spread
- with the people.
- 2271
- 01:32:08,909 --> 01:32:11,346
- We find forms of these ziggurats...
- 2272
- 01:32:11,378 --> 01:32:13,581
- all around the globe.
- 2273
- 01:32:13,612 --> 01:32:15,372
- We find them in China.
- 2274
- 01:32:15,411 --> 01:32:16,880
- We find them in India.
- 2275
- 01:32:16,927 --> 01:32:19,309
- We find them in various parts of Americas.
- 2276
- 01:32:19,334 --> 01:32:20,914
- - Hhh.
- - We find them all over.
- 2277
- 01:32:20,949 --> 01:32:24,903
- Well, obviously, we have
- evidence here of civilization
- 2278
- 01:32:24,934 --> 01:32:28,366
- and people beginning to gather
- together in communities, even cities.
- 2279
- 01:32:28,428 --> 01:32:30,225
- Do we have any
- other evidence of that?
- 2280
- 01:32:30,264 --> 01:32:30,952
- Absolutely.
- 2281
- 01:32:30,983 --> 01:32:33,858
- We can move forward
- to the time of Abraham.
- 2282
- 01:32:33,889 --> 01:32:36,553
- Because we know that
- Abraham lived at the site of Ur,
- 2283
- 01:32:36,600 --> 01:32:39,365
- which was also in
- southern Mesopotamia...
- 2284
- 01:32:39,397 --> 01:32:42,196
- at the end of
- the third millennium BC.
- 2285
- 01:32:42,235 --> 01:32:44,602
- That brings us to the end
- of Genesis chapter 11.
- 2286
- 01:32:44,657 --> 01:32:45,540
- Exactly.
- 2287
- 01:32:45,571 --> 01:32:49,633
- In fact, you see some pottery,
- some cuneiform tablets,
- 2288
- 01:32:49,665 --> 01:32:52,844
- all dating to the period
- of the Third Dynasty of Ur.
- 2289
- 01:32:52,869 --> 01:32:55,991
- It, it's amazing just as we're sitting here
- and thinking about that, you know,
- 2290
- 01:32:56,016 --> 01:32:58,321
- thinking uh, about Abraham
- 2291
- 01:32:58,346 --> 01:33:02,969
- and that this represents the culture
- and civilization that he lived in.
- 2292
- 01:33:03,032 --> 01:33:05,597
- It's a great tie to that
- record in Genesis for.
- 2293
- 01:33:05,628 --> 01:33:07,948
- It is fascinating and
- it gives you a feeling of...
- 2294
- 01:33:07,987 --> 01:33:09,948
- - put your hands around the events
- - Hhh.
- 2295
- 01:33:09,973 --> 01:33:12,280
- - that go on in the biblical text.
- - Right. Yup.
- 2296
- 01:33:13,038 --> 01:33:14,780
- When I looked through history,
- 2297
- 01:33:14,827 --> 01:33:16,873
- I realized each of these cultures
- 2298
- 01:33:16,913 --> 01:33:20,553
- had been impacted by
- the events recorded in Genesis.
- 2299
- 01:33:20,623 --> 01:33:24,375
- But, what is the importance
- of Genesis to us today?
- 2300
- 01:33:32,580 --> 01:33:35,838
- George Grant wanted to meet me
- at a garden near his home.
- 2301
- 01:33:35,908 --> 01:33:39,939
- He said it was a good reminder
- of where our history began.
- 2302
- 01:33:40,650 --> 01:33:42,978
- So it's something significant about
- 2303
- 01:33:43,018 --> 01:33:44,627
- uh, the Genesis text
- 2304
- 01:33:44,666 --> 01:33:47,049
- in which Adam and Eve
- were then placed
- 2305
- 01:33:47,083 --> 01:33:49,356
- into a garden to tend it.
- 2306
- 01:33:49,408 --> 01:33:51,349
- Uh, that's more than just a story.
- 2307
- 01:33:51,371 --> 01:33:53,225
- It's much more than just a story.
- 2308
- 01:33:53,256 --> 01:33:56,123
- One of the things that
- you see in Genesis chapter 1...
- 2309
- 01:33:56,248 --> 01:33:59,803
- is the structure for time.
- 2310
- 01:33:59,842 --> 01:34:03,683
- Uh, the universe is created
- for a 24-hour day.
- 2311
- 01:34:03,708 --> 01:34:07,922
- And so everything from
- the way our sleep cycles
- 2312
- 01:34:07,947 --> 01:34:10,953
- and the way our work cycles work,
- 2313
- 01:34:11,032 --> 01:34:12,819
- all come from that
- 2314
- 01:34:12,851 --> 01:34:15,585
- definitive historical account there.
- 2315
- 01:34:15,640 --> 01:34:18,073
- When we get to uh,
- Genesis chapter 2,
- 2316
- 01:34:18,118 --> 01:34:20,752
- we start to see the meaning
- and purpose of man.
- 2317
- 01:34:20,843 --> 01:34:22,572
- Of course,
- in Genesis chapter 3,
- 2318
- 01:34:22,619 --> 01:34:26,189
- we see disruption of
- everything by the fall.
- 2319
- 01:34:26,263 --> 01:34:28,734
- The implications of a historical fall,
- 2320
- 01:34:28,759 --> 01:34:31,353
- an actual man and
- an actual woman,
- 2321
- 01:34:31,384 --> 01:34:35,378
- who actually yielded
- to actual sin...
- 2322
- 01:34:35,449 --> 01:34:39,386
- have then implications off
- through the rest of the Bible.
- 2323
- 01:34:39,519 --> 01:34:42,396
- If you remove a literal Adam and Eve,
- 2324
- 01:34:42,421 --> 01:34:46,271
- That, that changes the whole
- shape of what the history is...
- 2325
- 01:34:46,341 --> 01:34:48,654
- and how history is remembered.
- 2326
- 01:34:48,740 --> 01:34:52,055
- Is that because when
- we pull an Adam and Eve
- 2327
- 01:34:52,090 --> 01:34:55,437
- out of the historical record,
- 2328
- 01:34:55,484 --> 01:34:57,195
- we can then pretty much...
- 2329
- 01:34:57,244 --> 01:34:59,758
- make up what
- we think about man,
- 2330
- 01:34:59,783 --> 01:35:02,531
- and marriage,
- and even sexuality?
- 2331
- 01:35:02,601 --> 01:35:04,023
- Absolutely.
- 2332
- 01:35:04,054 --> 01:35:06,748
- The apostle Paul
- understood the events
- 2333
- 01:35:06,773 --> 01:35:09,963
- of the uh, early chapters of Genesis
- 2334
- 01:35:09,994 --> 01:35:12,291
- as formative, not only
- 2335
- 01:35:12,338 --> 01:35:14,046
- for our understanding of history,
- 2336
- 01:35:14,081 --> 01:35:16,165
- but for relationships
- 2337
- 01:35:16,212 --> 01:35:19,494
- between men and women
- and their children,
- 2338
- 01:35:19,548 --> 01:35:21,847
- uh, the character and
- nature of marriage,
- 2339
- 01:35:21,878 --> 01:35:27,325
- uh, rightness and wrongness in
- moral relations, including sexuality.
- 2340
- 01:35:27,364 --> 01:35:30,083
- - All of that is assumed...
- - Hhh.
- 2341
- 01:35:30,122 --> 01:35:32,716
- from those early chapters of Genesis,
- 2342
- 01:35:32,755 --> 01:35:36,812
- often time quoting the passages verbatim.
- 2343
- 01:35:36,866 --> 01:35:39,195
- It, it seems that even Peters
- 2344
- 01:35:39,226 --> 01:35:44,007
- is taking that event of the Flood,
- for example, as a historic event,
- 2345
- 01:35:44,046 --> 01:35:45,843
- and laying it in
- 2346
- 01:35:45,898 --> 01:35:50,265
- the context of which is pointing to
- a judgment that will, that will come.
- 2347
- 01:35:50,296 --> 01:35:52,212
- So even judgment is a part...
- 2348
- 01:35:52,251 --> 01:35:54,876
- of, of understanding
- that historical record.
- 2349
- 01:35:54,923 --> 01:35:57,900
- You cut things off from history...
- 2350
- 01:35:58,876 --> 01:36:02,260
- and lose sight of the meaning of all of it.
- 2351
- 01:36:02,337 --> 01:36:05,675
- I think most Christians,
- uh, when we talk about...
- 2352
- 01:36:05,722 --> 01:36:07,766
- uh, for example,
- the life of Christ,
- 2353
- 01:36:07,801 --> 01:36:10,576
- those are understood
- to be historical...
- 2354
- 01:36:10,632 --> 01:36:11,936
- - accounts.
- - Right.
- 2355
- 01:36:11,975 --> 01:36:16,122
- Why is it that when we look at
- the account in Genesis,
- 2356
- 01:36:16,169 --> 01:36:19,640
- that we have a tendency
- not to want to do that?
- 2357
- 01:36:19,734 --> 01:36:24,046
- We have a tendency not to do it
- because we're constantly exhorted...
- 2358
- 01:36:24,101 --> 01:36:25,945
- to not see it that way.
- 2359
- 01:36:25,983 --> 01:36:27,327
- From the culture around us?
- 2360
- 01:36:27,353 --> 01:36:30,313
- The culture around us,
- uh, from theologians,
- 2361
- 01:36:30,360 --> 01:36:33,212
- uh, modern theologians
- who are trying to,
- 2362
- 01:36:33,243 --> 01:36:35,110
- some how in their minds,
- 2363
- 01:36:35,149 --> 01:36:37,733
- fit the truths of Scripture with the...
- 2364
- 01:36:37,758 --> 01:36:40,493
- - the so-called discoveries of science,
- - Uh-huh, uh-huh.
- 2365
- 01:36:40,562 --> 01:36:43,095
- which if you know anything
- about the history of science,
- 2366
- 01:36:43,120 --> 01:36:46,712
- - you know it's incredibly unreliable path.
- - Uh-huh, uh-huh.
- 2367
- 01:36:46,737 --> 01:36:49,539
- So we are constantly bombarded...
- 2368
- 01:36:49,617 --> 01:36:53,786
- with this message that
- we have to adjust our view.
- 2369
- 01:36:53,934 --> 01:36:58,192
- But I think there are a lot of
- Christians who have a sense...
- 2370
- 01:36:58,262 --> 01:37:01,373
- that the historicity of Genesis...
- 2371
- 01:37:01,428 --> 01:37:05,858
- is just not that important
- to their Christianity.
- 2372
- 01:37:05,944 --> 01:37:08,881
- I, I think we have been sold
- the bill of goods on that.
- 2373
- 01:37:08,952 --> 01:37:13,782
- When you, somehow,
- make those chapters
- 2374
- 01:37:13,821 --> 01:37:16,063
- a different category altogether,
- 2375
- 01:37:16,103 --> 01:37:17,744
- and non-historical,
- 2376
- 01:37:17,798 --> 01:37:20,152
- What, what are you doing to
- all of the rest of the Bible?
- 2377
- 01:37:20,191 --> 01:37:22,175
- The Bible that assumes that is true,
- 2378
- 01:37:22,206 --> 01:37:25,019
- the Bible that treats it
- as historical true,
- 2379
- 01:37:25,058 --> 01:37:29,008
- and the Bible that refers back to
- all of the characters that are there,
- 2380
- 01:37:29,043 --> 01:37:31,482
- does that then negates
- the whole of the Bible?
- 2381
- 01:37:31,507 --> 01:37:33,818
- Well, yes.
- 2382
- 01:37:33,912 --> 01:37:36,427
- And that's exactly
- what the strategy was
- 2383
- 01:37:36,467 --> 01:37:37,873
- of the higher critics
- 2384
- 01:37:37,927 --> 01:37:39,982
- in the 18th and 19th centuries.
- 2385
- 01:37:40,031 --> 01:37:41,625
- They knew...
- 2386
- 01:37:41,796 --> 01:37:45,992
- if you could, somehow,
- attack the first three...
- 2387
- 01:37:46,054 --> 01:37:49,875
- or first eleven chapters of Genesis...
- 2388
- 01:37:49,984 --> 01:37:51,916
- you're done away with the whole thing.
- 2389
- 01:37:52,195 --> 01:37:55,705
- Well, George, all of this
- brings us back in to...
- 2390
- 01:37:55,799 --> 01:37:58,166
- the notion that the history...
- 2391
- 01:37:58,260 --> 01:38:02,963
- uh, that is recorded in Genesis
- or any true history at all is critical...
- 2392
- 01:38:02,988 --> 01:38:06,291
- for us, in terms of understanding
- what's going on around us.
- 2393
- 01:38:06,369 --> 01:38:07,822
- Yeah.
- In, in fact,...
- 2394
- 01:38:07,861 --> 01:38:11,308
- it reminds us of how
- important history is...
- 2395
- 01:38:11,355 --> 01:38:14,761
- and anchoring all of
- the other human disciplines.
- 2396
- 01:38:14,808 --> 01:38:18,693
- Uh, it is the history
- that helps to inform science.
- 2397
- 01:38:18,740 --> 01:38:23,169
- So that science can begin
- its journey of discovery in the world.
- 2398
- 01:38:23,263 --> 01:38:27,234
- So what the history does
- is it tells us what happened.
- 2399
- 01:38:27,515 --> 01:38:30,406
- Then what science
- attempts to do is...
- 2400
- 01:38:30,468 --> 01:38:33,406
- it, it asks the question,
- well, how did it happen?
- 2401
- 01:38:33,492 --> 01:38:35,992
- And then,
- it, it begins to explore
- 2402
- 01:38:36,070 --> 01:38:37,538
- the how, the mechanics,
- 2403
- 01:38:37,570 --> 01:38:38,906
- - the structures
- - Hhh.
- 2404
- 01:38:38,969 --> 01:38:41,773
- uh, that were present in those events.
- 2405
- 01:38:41,851 --> 01:38:43,302
- If you try to reverse that,
- 2406
- 01:38:43,365 --> 01:38:45,592
- if you try to make science...
- 2407
- 01:38:45,661 --> 01:38:48,802
- - uh, saying what actually happened,
- - Uh-huh.
- 2408
- 01:38:48,872 --> 01:38:52,671
- uh, then you, you wind up
- having a worldview
- 2409
- 01:38:52,726 --> 01:38:56,085
- that is constantly shifting
- where nothing is certain.
- 2410
- 01:38:56,140 --> 01:38:58,233
- And moral relativism...
- 2411
- 01:38:58,335 --> 01:39:00,991
- is the necessary outcome.
- 2412
- 01:39:01,397 --> 01:39:03,819
- And God has given us that bedrock.
- 2413
- 01:39:03,858 --> 01:39:05,790
- He has given us that foundation
- 2414
- 01:39:05,845 --> 01:39:07,571
- in that historical record.
- 2415
- 01:39:07,626 --> 01:39:10,415
- He has given it to us
- in that historical record...
- 2416
- 01:39:10,440 --> 01:39:13,751
- going all the way back
- to Genesis chapter 1...
- 2417
- 01:39:13,837 --> 01:39:15,595
- - and the garden.
- - And the garden.
- 2418
- 01:39:17,103 --> 01:39:20,814
- In the end, I suppose
- we always return home.
- 2419
- 01:39:20,905 --> 01:39:23,213
- And for me, home is Colorado.
- 2420
- 01:39:23,337 --> 01:39:24,754
- I always think more clearly...
- 2421
- 01:39:24,779 --> 01:39:27,707
- when I'm out in the beauty
- of God's creation.
- 2422
- 01:39:27,902 --> 01:39:31,168
- We've been in a lot of places
- and seen a lot of things,...
- 2423
- 01:39:31,254 --> 01:39:33,394
- but considering everything together,...
- 2424
- 01:39:33,480 --> 01:39:36,418
- it's clear that nothing
- in the world makes sense,
- 2425
- 01:39:36,459 --> 01:39:39,514
- except in the light of Genesis.
- 2426
- 01:39:42,170 --> 01:39:43,695
- I love being in the mountains,
- 2427
- 01:39:43,720 --> 01:39:46,367
- especially, ones like these.
- 2428
- 01:39:46,477 --> 01:39:48,985
- They help give us
- a good perspective,...
- 2429
- 01:39:49,146 --> 01:39:52,143
- help us realize
- that we're small and...
- 2430
- 01:39:52,252 --> 01:39:54,072
- finite, and vulnerable.
- 2431
- 01:39:54,312 --> 01:39:55,960
- They humble us.
- 2432
- 01:39:56,195 --> 01:39:58,181
- And we need to be humble
- because we have...
- 2433
- 01:39:58,251 --> 01:40:00,634
- a tendency to base our ideas...
- 2434
- 01:40:00,713 --> 01:40:02,533
- on our own small...
- 2435
- 01:40:02,619 --> 01:40:04,354
- set of experiences.
- 2436
- 01:40:04,556 --> 01:40:08,049
- That's why the wisdom of the ages
- has told us over and over again...
- 2437
- 01:40:08,111 --> 01:40:10,191
- to know history.
- 2438
- 01:40:10,769 --> 01:40:14,183
- Everything that we've done
- up to this point...
- 2439
- 01:40:14,433 --> 01:40:16,402
- has looked at the evidence
- 2440
- 01:40:16,449 --> 01:40:19,504
- that shows us that
- the word of God,...
- 2441
- 01:40:19,654 --> 01:40:24,092
- the history that has been
- laid down for us in Genesis is true.
- 2442
- 01:40:24,741 --> 01:40:28,123
- God created the world in six days.
- 2443
- 01:40:28,436 --> 01:40:31,204
- There was a real Adam,
- a real Eve.
- 2444
- 01:40:31,243 --> 01:40:33,243
- There was a real fall.
- 2445
- 01:40:33,431 --> 01:40:35,462
- It really was a flood...
- 2446
- 01:40:35,719 --> 01:40:38,665
- that destroyed the world
- and produced all of this.
- 2447
- 01:40:38,690 --> 01:40:42,461
- It is glorious, but it represents
- the judgment of God.
- 2448
- 01:40:43,005 --> 01:40:45,126
- Everything supports...
- 2449
- 01:40:45,306 --> 01:40:47,329
- what God has told us.
- 2450
- 01:40:47,532 --> 01:40:49,797
- Genesis is history.
- 2451
- 01:40:50,009 --> 01:40:51,469
- True history.
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