AssaultCube - Never Changes

<iguana> cant you guys let there be a twintowers and camper server on the masterserver?
<iguana> just so everyone doesnt go to my servers to vote that
<Dani> make is so they can't vote it
<Dani> problem solved
<stef|grue> just remove the maps
<stef|grue> we have dozens of great maps and hundereds of good maps - there is absolutely no need to play that crap
<Dani> 5 servers active, 2 twintowerBS, 1 syria, 1 gema and 1 ac_something
<Dani> it's not just your server iguana
<Dani> awful maps are like a rash
<Dani> nasty rash
<iguana> yeah but i mean
<iguana> look at gema central
<iguana> `everyone went there for gema
<iguana> now people are voting gema on other servers
<Dani> not everyone
<Dani> idiots*
<Dani> it's a fps not a jump around game
<Dani> if i'd like to jump i'd get a pogo stick
<Dani> great
<Dani> now i have a stupid jump song in my head
<stef|grue> if you want to provide a server for shit maps and gema, fine - but not listed on the masterserver
<stef|grue> for several years now, new players who just installed the game, saw at best one or two servers with an actual AC game - while on all other servers there were nothing but butt-ugly gimmick maps, where they were shot from invisible parts of the map or jump&run style maps where they were kicked for shooting at the enemy
<stef|grue> "oh, gee, why are the player numbers down?"
<B[]> stef|grue: Surely the compromise is to have a "beginner" or "basic" mode, supporting new comers who want FPS and advanced players who want something extra? Regardless of whether you want it, you have a die-hard fan base for these game modes and it's not a bad thing, it brings community to the game.
<iguana> i'll give an example, there was also a server like douze 24/7
<iguana> tosok
<iguana> and almost everyone that wanted to play douze tosok went there
<iguana> server got removed an everyone went to all these other servers and group voted douze tosok
<Dani> erm..
<Dani> they still do that
<stef|grue> do you have a few minutes?
<iguana> no one wants to play that, douse in tosok is eqivilant to camper and towers
<Dani> players join a good game to ruin it with desert osok votes or syria maps
<Dani> even when there are already 3 or more servers with that
<stef|grue> i would like you to an old forum post - but since i posted that, the forum got deleted at least three times...
<stef|grue> to point*
<Dani> i can't remember the last time i played a game without others ruining it with BS maps/modes
<stef|grue> i posted this over eight years ago: https://pastebin.com/DjMuxh69
<B[]> You clearly have two different communities here, those who want well tested, well played, vetted AC game play and those who want to push the boat out. To me it would make massive sense to split the results on master server into two distinct groups, even if you called it "Official" and "Unofficial".
<stef|grue> the only thing that changed since that post is the enforcement of max 20 players (now 16) to end the mass battles
<stef|grue> the rest (sadly) still applies
<stef|grue> and, frankly, for most maps 8vs8 is still way too many (active) players
<iguana> well
<iguana> whaever strategy your implimenting is obviously not working to your advantage
<stef|grue> there never was a strategy implemented
<iguana> say i or someone that allows map uploads to their servers to disable map uploads and remove camper tower maps
<iguana> then how do people upload their new maps or update their maps?
<stef|grue> i added all the tools for manual masterserver management - but the team then opted for "automatic" management, now called "map restrictions" - which never worked
<B[]> The whole argument here relies on: "If you look at the growing number of clans and players who are really committed to the game, AC must have done something right." - which is 8 years out of date. It's no longer true, numbers are declining.
<iguana> thats another point, map restrictions
<stef|grue> numbers are declining for exactly the reason outlined in that post
<iguana> dont you think because of it mapping has come to a paoint just as a tool to troll the community with camper, towersm and even official maps like douse tosok
<iguana> i bet you cant name me 6 new maps from the last 3 months
<stef|grue> the faulty "map restrictions" system shifted the focus from "play good maps" to "any map that meets the restrictions is a good map" - which is false
<Dani> PhS_Coleador
<stef|grue> new _good_ maps are also drowned in crap maps like syria and yes, camper&co
<Dani> i think that's a new map
<Dani> new and.. drumroll..
<Dani> awful
<iguana> sure, maybe 1-2 "good" new maps in the last 3 months
<stef|grue> why would anyone, at this time, invest a few hundred hours to make are really good map for AC? when it is absolutle clear, that if one can't see the RVSF base from CLA base at clear line of sight, no one will ever play it?
<Dani> was going to say that..
<Dani> they think they can make a great map in 30 minutes
<Dani> jiba needed months for a map
<stef|grue> which is the standard for maps to be popular now - just check the great syria: clear line of sight from base to base
<iguana> even so, a map doesnt need to be big too be good
<iguana> there could be lss maps for instance
<stef|grue> no, nowadays a map needs to be easy to be "good"
<iguana> but not even lss maps are made
<Dani> casa with 16 is fun..
<iguana> lss is easy, simple to map, and objectively fun
<stef|grue> actually, the situation is now way worse than eight years ago - because now there's a afps trying to suck up all serious players, leaving us with gema and camper
<iguana> if its come to a point where people dont even map lss type maps, then idk whats going on anymore
<iguana> or even better
<iguana> "In short, the problem is solved, as soon as those 'easy map servers' disappear..."
<iguana> do that from the pastebin , try it for 3-6 months
<iguana> ban all the easy servers, see what your left with
<B[]> Exactly, if you're that confident in what you're saying, clean up the game, get all the players back
<Dani> there have been 'easy' servers for idk how long, ditto for server with awful maps
<Dani> where are your players?
<Dani> i haven't seen them come back
<B[]> For iguana 's servers?
<Dani> what would you think when you join a game for the first time and it's camper@whatever
<Dani> yay that was fun, lets do it again?
<B[]> The simple fix for that is just to have a beginner's server list and an advanced server list toggle
<B[]> New players learn the game in a well controlled environment
<B[]> Advanced players can take the risk of a poor game play experience, but can control what server they want to go on
<Dani> would you like the play a game with only newbies?
<Dani> i don't
<iguana> thats why you go in the advanced servers list
<Dani> i like to dive in and see what happens
<B[]> Then you can select "random"
<Dani> and get to play camper@ maps
<B[]> Then player in the "core" mode (not "basic", that's poor wording)
<Dani> yay
<B[]> "core" - dev supported gameplay
<B[]> "community" - community created gameplay
<Dani> play nice games on nice maps without banning players for 1 tk or when they don't know where to go
<Dani> that what makes people stay
<Dani> +'s
<B[]> And no hackers, no trollers, etc, etc - these things cost time and money
<Dani> good point
<Dani> we should go for the easy way
<Dani> kut maps and kut servers
<B[]> You have the same problem that China had for a while with free speech on it's social media - whilst you don't put an alias to a person, everyone is a troll. People need to be given something to lose, that is the _only_ way it will ever work.
<stef|grue> there is no reason why AC should promote crap maps on the official master, not even as an option - since there are several options to connect to unlisted servers or add servers to the list yourself
<Dani> this is going nowhere
<stef|grue> asking to "optionally" promote crap map servers is like asking a restaurant to add spoiled food to the menu, as an "option"
<B[]> People have a different idea of what crap is. I don't like sea food, I like the fact that when I go to a restaurant I'm at least told the food group I want to avoid.
<stef|grue> B[]: please do not confuse "community created gameplay" with crap maps
<iguana> Dani what if i told you ExodusS like my tik-tok map? how would that make you feel?
<Dani> ?
<Dani> do i have to feel something?
<B[]> stef|grue: I'm not sure where the line is even drawn? What's the definition of crap here? Maps that pass a stef & dani undefined checklist? You might not like Syria, but plenty of people do.
<Dani> you're not getting the point
<stef|grue> please read that post
<stef|grue> otherwise the discussion is pointless
<Dani> 14:28  Dani: this is going nowhere
<Dani> you only hear what you want to hear
<B[]> stef|grue: This discussion is pointless anyway, no matter what words are spoken here, no change will occur.
<B[]> Tomorrow exactly the same will happen
<B[]> And the day after
<B[]> "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
<Dani> i could say the same thing about you
<Dani> saying the same thing over and over again
<stef|grue> why didn't you read the post?
<Dani> you don't get the point
<B[]> Make the point then
<stef|grue> iguana: ExodusS can't really serve as a benchmark, since he's also supporting completely broken maps
<iguana> yet hes made pretty good maps that i dont even think you can disagree with
<stef|grue> not what is said
<stef|grue> i*
<Dani> there are many maps i don't like but i never said they should all be removed
<Dani> you want players that stay
<Dani> then imagine joining maps like camper@
<Dani> as a new player
<Dani> but you can't
<Dani> you like it so it has to stay
<B[]> I agree Dani, which is why I suggested a version of the game that is friendly to beginners
<B[]> I agree that is a problem for new players
<B[]> But you also need vet players to stay
<iguana> eitherway, i can move my servers over to tm's masterserver
<iguana> then you have 2 less server with camper, still doesnt solve your problem
<B[]> Exactly, you still have declining players and no plan to stop it
<Dani> iguana do you really think adding more camper server would fix it?
<Dani> really?
<iguana> then ban them
<Dani> ....
<RantingHuman> 7:45:32 < B[]> But you also need vet players to stay >>>> Are you saying vet players are leaving because they don't have gema anymore? Lol
<iguana> you have masterserver access
<Dani> is it really that black and white for you?
<iguana> might as well do it
<iguana> you have nothing to lose
<B[]> Dani he's just wanting _something_ to happen
<iguana> make new server rules on the forums, whos going to object if its a rule of the game?
<B[]> As much as vector is a crazy fucker, he's right when he says things are not going anywhere
<Dani> woah
<Dani> did you just quote vector?
<Dani> woah
<B[]> I think I get 50 points for that ;)
<iguana> Dani you just got thug lifed
<Dani> most of the time i don't get what vector is talking about
<iguana> exactly what were talking about now
<B[]> Haha yeah... He's a little crazy... But he's frustrated. As much as he doesn't want to admit it, he cares about the game
<Dani> in a weird twisted way
<stef|grue> he cares about trolling - and you're enabling him
<B[]> He can see things are not going well (losing players) and he wants something to change to fix that
<Dani> only when he had 1 wine too many
<Dani> there's no easy fix
<B[]> Of course there's no easy fix, but we do know that doing nothing will change nothing
<stef|grue> hands up_ who's doing nothing here?
* Dani looks around
<B[]> Define nothing? Because iguana is working on a launcher
<stef|grue> and for the record: threatening to attack the game is not "doing something"
<B[]> He's just provoking a reaction
<B[]> And it worked
<Dani> hey.. i ban cheats
<Dani> i do something
<B[]> Oh and Dani bans cheats (got you)
<stef|grue> "And it worked" - achieving what, exactly?
<iguana> only banning cheats and not crap map servers
<iguana> embarrasing
<B[]> A response from you, he had your ear momentarily
<Dani> i know
<RantingHuman> Provoking a reaction is something that trolls do, not people who actually want results
<Dani> but i have to start somewhere
<B[]> RantingHuman: I did say he's a tad crazy...
<Dani> having servers but no blacklist and no logs and telling others how to change things is what's really embarrrasing
<iguana> change things?
<stef|grue> unlike earlier devs, i do not work with cheaters - or people who attack the game servers (or threaten to do so). ever.
<Dani> twisting words and make it look like i said something which i didn't is what's really embarrassing
<iguana> which words have i twisted for you?
<stef|grue> which means, all that he "achieved" was to be disqualified permanently
<B[]> stef|grue: That's your rightful position, I won't hold that against you
<Dani> 14:32  iguana: Dani what if i told you ExodusS like my tik-tok map?
<iguana> its not a lie
<Dani> have i ever said i didn't like it?
<iguana> go ask him yourself
<B[]> But that's not the point, the point is about change towards retaining AC players
<Dani> because that's what it sounds like
<iguana> i mean lots of people in ac think its a gema map or a camper map
<iguana> in which case it falls into the definition of crap map
<iguana> but its neither gema nor camper
<iguana> its just really a creative muti-themed map
<Dani> i'm not lots of people
<Dani> and idc what what exoduss or others thing about anything
<Dani> think*
<Dani> looks like you think worse about your own maps than i do
<iguana> i would love to see you make a map, then get judged for it
<Dani> i'd never make a map
<Dani> ever
<Dani> because i know i can't
<iguana> everyone can
<Dani> unlike most other 'mappers'
<iguana> you just need to try
<Dani> no i don't
<Dani> no-one needs to
<Dani> that's a weird way of thinking
<Dani> thinking you need to do something
<iguana> if no one does anything, nothing will change
<Dani> you need to breath
<Dani> there we go again
<Dani> the black and white thinking
<iguana> not black and white
<iguana> go watch some kitchen nightmares
<Dani> because i don't 'need' to do stuff like eg making a map doesn't mean others shouldn't
* MA|Pablo2 ([email protected]) has joined
<Dani> if you WANT to make a map i won;t stop you
<Dani> but i won't
<Dani> ever
<iguana> oh boy
<B[]> Dani: It's not black and white, of course, but the action of not changing anything will result in the same outcome
<B[]> But of course it's not clear what to change
<stef|grue> i guess, change is only change if you know of it?
<B[]> Of course, failing to communicate change limits it's effectiveness
* MA|Pablo has quit (Ping timeout)
<Dani> or it opens doors
<B[]> In context?
<stef|grue> certain parts of the AC "community" have a history of making it impossible to talk about changes - you friend is one of them
<stef|grue> your*
<B[]> I'm not aware of how we have incapacitated your ability to communicate change?
<B[]> Just re-read - okay
<B[]> I guess this is why a lot of news article removed their comments sections - maybe you just need a "blog" type deal
<stef|grue> harps tried several weeks ago - and conjured up the ghost of assholes, your friend
<B[]> I didn't see, was it on the forum?
<stef|grue> for a while
<stef|grue> then again on a hidden part of the forum - there was a middleman
<B[]> That's a massive shame