Harmony, secularism, Islam, and catastrophizing

1:59:39 PM+dragoonProfFarnsworth: I have a line of argumentation for you.
1:59:47 PM+dragoonAre you willing to engage.
1:59:59 PM@ProfFarnsworthI have about 15 minutes before I have to leave.
2:00:12 PM+dragoonOkay, I think this can be done in a few minutes.
2:00:38 PM+dragoonI would like you to tell me if you disagree with the following:
2:01:24 PM+dragoon1. Europe previously was under the sway of a religious supremacist system -- Christianity, from about 313 in Rome to at least 1648 with the Treaty of Westphalia.
2:01:57 PM+dragoon2. Starting with the Protestant Reformation 1519 to 1648, much of Europe was constantly at war with itself because of the governing ideology of the religion Christianity.
2:02:26 PM+dragoon3. Europeans -- the primary home of Christianity -- got sick of Christianity and came to believe it inadequate to govern any longer. They replaced with with secularism.
2:02:38 PM+dragoon4. Secularism is an essential part of the European/Western modern ideal
2:02:45 PM@xsnlxTIL that more people died manufacturing the Nazi German V-2 rocket than were killed by its blast. Each operational V-2 rocket consumed about six human lives.
2:02:55 PM+dragoon5. About 50% of Muslims around the world, according to various polls, believe Islamic law should be the foundation of global civilization
2:03:06 PM+dragoonQuestion: Should Europeans be concerned about that when making immigration decisions?
2:04:01 PM* ProfFarnsworth ponders.
2:04:13 PM+dragoonI can give you a bit more context.
2:04:34 PM+dragoon6. There is a national identity in European civilization
2:04:47 PM@ProfFarnsworthI'm more worried about Dominionists.
2:05:26 PM+dragoon7. The national identity is not based on physical appearance, gender, sexuality, or religion. It is based off acceptance of a certain ideology, namely that a secular, law-based form of government is an excellent way to provide for a good quality of life for a diverse group of people
2:05:47 PM+dragoon8. People who do not accept the national identity should, as much as possible, not be allowed to influence the country or live there indefinitely
2:06:03 PM+dragoonThe facts definitely show the primary religious threat to the USA and Europe is from Christians
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2:06:59 PM+dragoonI think the West should only allow limited Muslim immigration due to about 50% of Muslims being religious supemacists.
2:07:09 PM+dragoonSupremacist ideologies are anathema to our civilizations.
2:07:33 PM+dragoonIdeally, I'd like, if possible for our civilizations to do individualized checking of immigrants for supremacist ideologies.
2:08:11 PM+dragoonIf a bunch of Polish people want to immigrate, and we knew there were white supremacists, what is the value in allowing them to join our civilization?
2:08:27 PM+dragoonthey were*
2:09:27 PM+dragoonAny objections?
2:09:48 PM@ProfFarnsworththe Nazis weren't anti-religion.
2:09:50 PM+dragoonThe last thing I've been thinking about in regards to Muslims in how they create disharmony in our civilization.
2:10:01 PM+dragoonBuddhism cares very deeply about harmony -- it's a core value.
2:10:02 PM@ProfFarnsworthIn fact, Hitler explicitly said that his ideology was a Christian one.
2:10:16 PM@ProfFarnsworthThe Catholic Church did not speak out against him.
2:10:21 PM+dragoonMany Buddhist groups are focused on ensuring they have a nice integration with the surrounding non-Buddhist community.
2:10:36 PM+dragoonThis allows them to be trusted and perceived as non-threatening by non-Buddhists.
2:10:54 PM+dragoonThen, given they're trusted -- which is acquired over decades and centuries -- people listen to what they say with open minds.
2:11:14 PM+dragoonNow, Buddhists are some of the people on Earth in this regard, and we don't want to judge others too harshly by this standard.
2:11:27 PM+dragoonI, myself, often create disharmony. I don't do a good job of following this part of Buddhist values.
2:11:41 PM+dragoonBut, to the extent this analysis has value, I think Muslim immigrants create a lot of disharmony.
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2:12:00 PM+dragoonYou join a civilization and then when we speak to you, some portion of you tell us you want to replace our government with your religion.
2:12:10 PM+dragoonAnd some of those Muslims have been present for like 3 years in that civilization.
2:12:17 PM+dragoonThat is incredibly disrespectful in some important ways.
2:12:21 PM+dragoonIt's not like our civilization is a babe.
2:12:29 PM+dragoonSome of our cities and countries are older than Islam.
2:12:36 PM+dragoonParis, for example.
2:12:37 PM+dragoonOr London.
2:12:48 PM+dragoonWe've also ha an intense religion at the core of our worldview.
2:12:54 PM+dragoonWe know much of what that experience is like.
2:13:03 PM+dragoonAnd we've settled on this way of life after centuries of thought.
2:13:15 PM@ProfFarnsworthYeah, I just looked that up; I was misinformed and I apologize.
2:13:23 PM+dragoonAnd to join a civilization and start boasting with Islamic supremacist ideology that you'd want to replace the government is extremely fucking irritating.
2:13:55 PM+dragoonLet us think of what the Pope said after the Charlie Hebdo shooting: If you insult somebody's mother, you can expect a punch in the nose.
2:14:00 PM@xsnlxwhat % of Xians believe the U.S. is a "Xian" nation?  I'd assume it's more than 50%
2:14:07 PM+dragoonIf you join a society and you're different, there is going to be tension, confusion, and racism.
2:14:16 PM+dragoonThat's unfortunate and wrong, but it's how our species works to an important extent.
2:14:31 PM@xsnlxnope
2:14:35 PM+dragoonYou can mitigate that by following something like the Buddhist or secular path where you value your culture, but show you value the culture of others, too.
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2:15:00 PM+dragoonBut when you have a supremacist religion that's 1400 years old and you tell civilizations as old as yours that their way is wrong, you're going to create enmity.
2:15:07 PM@xsnlxChristianity is the most adhered to religion in the United States, with 75% of polled American adults identifying themselves as Christian in 2015
2:15:12 PM+dragoonA lot of that enmity will be wrong, but some of it won't.
2:15:20 PM+dragoonProfFarnsworth: I thought you were going to engage this topioc.
2:15:53 PM@ProfFarnsworthSome things took my attention.
2:15:59 PM+dragoonYou stated you had 15 minutes.
2:16:07 PM+dragoonYou didn't update.
2:16:10 PM+dragoonYou've responded to others.
2:16:10 PM@ProfFarnsworthThings change, bro.
2:16:15 PM+dragoonThings do change.
2:16:21 PM+dragoonThat's why we communicate.
2:16:23 PM@ProfFarnsworthI was letting you finish first.
2:16:54 PM+dragoonWhen you have a history of a pattern, an a person says, I'd like to engage you but I'm mindful of you pattern, and you say, I'm available for 15 minutes, it becomes important to communicate updates.
2:16:55 PM@xsnlxyes, Xianity in the U.S. is on the decline
2:17:01 PM+dragoonOtherwise, you're repeating your pattern.
2:17:24 PM+dragoonIf only I could hate all of Western civilization and be racist, like [e], then you'd engage my posts.
2:17:43 PM+dragoonBut I merely try to be impeccably honest and good-intentioned, attempting to synthesize knowledge across cultures and centuries.
2:17:45 PM@ProfFarnsworth:-\
2:18:25 PM+dragoonOne thing I want to share with everybody in this room on this topic:
2:18:41 PM+dragoonWhen it comes to violence and Muslims in our Western civilizations, the primary concern is probably violence towards Muslims.
2:18:44 PM+dragoonI think the data shows that.
2:18:52 PM+dragoonIt's our job in the Western/European ideal to care about this.
2:19:08 PM+dragoonWe care about facts very deeply, and we're empathetic to all peoples -- especially those who are vulnerable..
2:19:28 PM+dragoonMuslims in our society are often quite vulnerable and have less power since our societies are not derived from Islam.
2:19:47 PM@xsnlxYes, it is the duty of the strong (the majority) to protect the vulnerable (the minorities)
2:20:04 PM+dragoonThat being said, it can wear on a people when they try to be noble to have some Muslims repeat mythology about angels in caves telling Muhammad magic secrets and how that mythology should govern our societies.
2:20:13 PM+dragoonIt's like, look, your civilizations don't seem to run as well as ours.
2:20:30 PM+dragoonThat's multifactorial and complicated, but maybe working on organizing your own homes before you 'fix' ours.
2:20:46 PM@xsnlxsure, just as Xians will lecture us on Bronze Age morality
2:20:47 PM+dragoonPartially, I understand, it's hard to fix your homes because our capitalist, imperialist systems prevent you from doing that.
2:21:49 PM+dragoonYes, in the US, Muslims really aren't creating too many problems.
2:21:57 PM+dragoonChristians are close to collapsing our republic.
2:22:06 PM+dragoonMuslims are above average US citizens, I believe, from the data.
2:22:24 PM@xsnlxyup, if nothing else, just from the immigrant effect
2:22:30 PM+dragoonYep.
2:22:50 PM+dragoonI hate having some overlap with racist Trump supporters.
2:23:01 PM+dragoonI hope that my perceptions haven't been too skewed by any racist impulses I'm unaware of.
2:23:13 PM+dragoonHere's a cool Arabic song I like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njRkA9PoeTs
2:24:30 PM@xsnlxDreams, yes, a little over 70% of domestic terrorist are white, right-wingers (and the vast majority of them are nominally Xian)
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2:25:30 PM+dragoonI'm somewhat uncomfortable with the New Zealand PM wearing a hajib.
2:25:42 PM+dragoonI wouldn't be surprised if I am wrong in that feeling.
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2:26:28 PM+dragoonI think if Muslims demonstrated to me they really believe in what we're trying to do here with our secular governments, then it would be correct for people to wear hajibs sometimes to show solidarity with their communities.
2:26:35 PM@xsnlxthe point isn't a judgment of the various categories.  The point is the 74% of the "problem" is white, right-wing (nominally Xian)
2:26:37 PM+dragoonBut I am currently suspicious of that.
2:27:23 PM@xsnlxif you're claiming to be "worried" about the problem, then you should address it proportionately
2:27:30 PM+dragoonI don't like the role of women in hajib wearing societies.
2:27:38 PM+dragoonThey seem less evolved than our societies.
2:27:56 PM@xsnlxISIS =/= "Muslims", they are one of the most extreme examples of supposed Muslims
2:28:28 PM@xsnlxlike equating Xians with KKK, or Proud Boys, or such
2:29:17 PM+dragoonxsnlx: Did you watch the video of the shooting?
2:29:47 PM@xsnlxof course, at least nominally they're "Muslim", but to infer violence is a trait of Muslims based on that is fallacious
2:30:03 PM@xsnlxI don't and won't watch garbage
2:30:31 PM@xsnlxGIGO
2:30:45 PM@xsnlxputting garbage in your brain can only cause garbage to come out of your brain
2:30:56 PM+dragoonThat makes sense, but I have a different view.
2:31:08 PM+dragoonMy views is that I desire to have a full understanding of the entire human experience.
2:31:19 PM+dragoonI want to know what it's like to be Hitler, and a Jew killed in Auschwitz.
2:31:34 PM+dragoonI want to be a victim at the Christchurch, and the shooter.
2:32:07 PM+dragoonI want to be a privileged Westerner free to pursue philosophy, and a panicked Eastern European figuring out if I should execute my tyrannical leader.
2:32:27 PM+dragoonOnly through walking that path, I feel, will I be able to make the right choices for justice across all lives.
2:32:51 PM@xsnlxBS, the proper analysis would be "What factors, including religion, are the best predictors for violence/terrorism/whatnot?"
2:32:53 PM+dragoonIt's actually a very privileged statement to want to not experience certain things.
2:33:06 PM+dragoonA lot of people cannot turn it off, as it isn't a video on Youtube, but their lives.
2:33:17 PM@xsnlxBS, the first order factors will include poverty/ignorance
2:33:33 PM+dragoonxsnlx: And supremacist ideologies.
2:33:37 PM@xsnlxpoverty/ignorance/history of abuse
2:33:41 PM+dragoonThose are great predictors for violence, it seems.
2:33:57 PM+dragoonThe genocidal impulse in our species is rooted in a belief that the Other isn't like us.
2:34:04 PM@xsnlxdragoon, perhaps monotheism, but I would offer that's, at best, a second order effect
2:34:25 PM@xsnlxand quite possibly a 3rd order effect
2:34:33 PM+dragoonI was killed at Christchurch.
2:35:20 PM+dragoonxsnlx: For large scale violence, supremacy ideology seems very important, but for small-scale interpersonal violence, it's probably more mundane.
2:35:22 PM+dragoonAs you're mentioning.
2:35:41 PM+dragoonI was surprised at the shooter's lack of empathy towards the Muslims he was killing.
2:35:41 PM@xsnlxabortion clinic bombers, Sinn Fein bombers, various nationalists, etc show that there are plenty of non-Xian terrorists
2:35:47 PM+dragoonI wondered how he got like that.
2:35:52 PM@xsnlxI mean, non-Muslim terrorists
2:35:55 PM+dragoonI don't think it's too hard for us to get that way.
2:35:58 PM+dragoonGenocide is natural for us.
2:36:33 PM+dragoonWatching videos like the shooting, I feel, has one benefit of revealing as false some of the ideas we have about the world.
2:36:41 PM+dragoonIt feels very 'adult' or 'mature', in that sense.
2:36:51 PM+dragoonA man ran at the shooter mid-killing to try and stop him.
2:36:55 PM+dragoonThat was very brave.
2:36:56 PM@xsnlxempathy is suppressed by fear and dehumanization
2:36:59 PM+dragoonHe failed and died.
2:37:05 PM+dragoonHe didn't defeat the villain.
2:37:55 PM+dragoonI felt humbled upon seeing that -- the stories we read are very soothing for our minds.
2:38:46 PM@xsnlxBS, its pacification primarily comes from socio-economic status
2:38:55 PM+dragoonBuddhism teaches us we should be able to meet the world and not be internally disturbed by it.
2:40:41 PM@xsnlxcompare Vietnam, why did 2.7 million Americans go to a faraway land and slaughter millions(?) of Asians?  fear as embodied by the domino effect
2:40:41 PM+dragoonTrump should be impeached and removed from office for his tweet about Pirro.
2:40:53 PM+dragoonA president weighing on such a matter is a violation of his oath of office.
2:41:13 PM+dragoonxsnlx: Yes, the catastrophized the situation.
2:41:33 PM+dragoonWhich is part of the phenomenology of genocide.
2:41:57 PM+dragoonIf you ever wonder, "Am I currently walking the path of genocide?", you can run the catastrophizing test against your ideas.
2:42:18 PM+dragoonThere were American leaders who vocalized, "If we don't fight Them in Vietnam, we'll have to fight them in our kitchens."
2:42:36 PM+dragoonThis can be seen in The Vietnam War by Ken Burns.