#avpd #bookclub Discussion 15/04/2017

<groke> ------------------
<groke> START OF BOOKCLUB
<groke> ------------------
<Jam> dick
<Benchamel> its a good start
<groke> did you like or dislike the story? feel free to say, anyone
<desvoeuxensis> Did we know doru wasn't going to be here? o_O
<Jam> i liked it but i saw the ending coming from a mile away
<desvoeuxensis> I loved it :)
<groke> i thought it was good
<Benchamel> Dick always have a big impact on me
<Slope> Like
<groke> same here Jam heh
<Benchamel> it was very nice :)
<Benchamel> you know
<Benchamel> im basically a plant
<chime> i didn't really like it
* chime hides
<groke> why not chime
<Benchamel> he just had to chime in
<Benchamel> :P
<chime> the entirely psychological explanation seemed a little inconsistent and far fetched
* Jam grabs pitchforks
<groke> wasn't that just fake?
<Benchamel> well
<Benchamel> we are talking about Dick after all
<groke> i thought he made that up to protect the pipers
<Jam> ^
<Jam> i think he did it to get Cox off his back
<Jam> ha
<Jam> Cox and Dick
<Slope> I think you're right groke
<Benchamel> hahaha
<groke> wasn't entirely sure though, had to read that bit twice
<chime> well, the guy brings a bag of earth home and sleeps on it, didn't have to do it for an act
<Benchamel> i read it a bit quick
<Benchamel> i didnt think of that, groke
<groke> no, the soil thing was genuine i think
<saturn> I think he did it to protect them too, we really don't know what it happens in the woods
<chime> anyway, non-psychological explanations can be arbitrary because it doesn't give many clues
<groke> my understanding was that the pipers had turned him into a plant and the official story he gave was false
<chime> i don't like stories that go "stuff happened, imagine whatever you like"
<Jam> i didn't like that either
<Jam> i want to know what happened
<groke> yes, i believe the mechanism of action was not revealed
<Benchamel> if they tell you what happen its often a disappointment
<saturn> I think it has a bit with do with how p.dick percive reality
<Benchamel> the idea of what happened can be more interesting
<saturn> he never wants to give us the easy answer
<desvoeuxensis> I agree, Benchamel
<groke> does everyone agree about that Harris was turned into a plant at least?
<desvoeuxensis> It's similar to when authors just show you what the character does, but don't tell you what they are thinking.  Sometimes stories get you thinking the most when there are gaps in explanation
<chime> but the problem needs to be inherently interesting
<Benchamel> there are different styles of writing i guess
<Jam> but in this story there's a really, really large gap imo
<desvoeuxensis> True chime
<Benchamel> some people maybe might not like it
<desvoeuxensis> I was arguing in more of a general way than specifically for Dick
<desvoeuxensis> :)
<groke> yeah it's the tip of the ice-berg method isn't it
<Benchamel> im listening to  Waltz of the Flowers while reading, thanks groke :)
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<desvoeuxensis> It was Slope's brainwave
<ocb> hi
<groke> they use that in movies where they show only peoples reactions to a phenomenon which can be more emotionally powerful than showing the thing directly
<desvoeuxensis> Hi ocb
<Benchamel> hi ocb
<Slope> :)
<groke> heya ocb did you read the story, we started already
<ocb> sorry
<desvoeuxensis> Yes, groke
<ocb> watching
<groke> its ok
* doru_araebaAFK (uid219009@Rizon-A77D40A7.stonehaven.irccloud.com) has joined
<doru_araebaAFK> Sorry I'm late :(
<groke> hi doru_araebaAFK did you read the story? we started already
<Benchamel> if Dick showed us everything and told us everything there would be less to think about
<desvoeuxensis> hey doru_araebaAFK :)
<saturn> I like actually that we don't know what happen in the woods. so we are just to wonder if there are really some kind of entities that turn you into plants or if just by been in contact with such peacefull population just bring back a kind of primitive/nostalgia to the humans. or is something else even?
* doru_araebaAFK is now known as doru_araeba
<saturn> hi doru_araeba and ocb
<doru_araeba> groke: I did
<desvoeuxensis> Agreed saturn
<Slope> it's like literary burlesque. Instead of just coming out naked and twerking on stage, the author teases us with an elaborate strip show
<doru_araeba> saturn: Yes. Apt cliffhanger
<desvoeuxensis> I think the way the story is told... makes you wonder not how it happened but what it means
<doru_araeba> Haha. Hilariously put
<doru_araeba> Slope
<desvoeuxensis> Is it good to be turned into a plant
<groke> my hypothesis is that the forest-woman was a piper. what do you think?
<desvoeuxensis> What does it imply about our human existence
<doru_araeba> groke: I think she simply exists to make the doctor reflect more deeply
<groke> is that inconsistent with her being a piper doru_araeba ?
<doru_araeba> The doctor never mentions making contact with a Piper
<Slope> yes. I think she was. She was certainly some kind of siren/temptress. Piper isnt much far off from that
<groke> but the doctor seemed to be lying after he came back from the forest
<doru_araeba> groke: Well actually we can't really say
<groke> he talked about his bags being heavy and that he should bring less next time, but then it turns out he knew they were full of soil
<doru_araeba> Slope: That is what she seems to be
<doru_araeba> groke: He sort of made me think he'd almost turned into a plant too :P
<doru_araeba> Soil-Nourishment analogy
<groke> yes Slope i think it was a pretty typical siren archetype.. in scandinavian mythology there's something called the forest nymph which lures men by her beauty and corrupt them, it's very much like this class of stories
<groke> doru_araeba, yeah i think he turned into a plant, i think that's the consensus here now, isn't it?
<desvoeuxensis> Then being turned into a plant is a corruption?
<doru_araeba> Is it good to be turned into a plant, huh? Well if everyone else agrees to it, then it's certainly possible
<desvoeuxensis> Yes I think it's the consensus, groke
<doru_araeba> But it's hard for just one, unless it is simply a delusion
<Benchamel> they mentioned a bit about people that worked really hard to get where they are, but then they just gave up everything to become a plant
<saturn> there is a female figure like that in most of the Dick stories, the female temptress
<Benchamel> what are thoughts about that?
<groke> well let's say "corruption" from the POV of the society, i don't think the woman is central to the story really, but it's an interesting side-track
<doru_araeba> Work-life balance, p'raps?
<Benchamel> yeah, definitely something like that
<doru_araeba> groke: I agree
<groke> i see, saturn
<doru_araeba> groke: More to arouse interest
<doru_araeba> There are countless stories of temptresses and conmen
<groke> anyway let's go back to desvoeuxensis earlier questions, is it an analogy to our existence here and how in that case
<Slope> additionally nymphs are often depicted as bathing in water in the forest such as in the paining Hylas and the Nymphs by Waterhouse https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Waterhouse_Hylas_and_the_Nymphs_Manchester_Art_Gallery_1896.15.jpg
<doru_araeba> I would say work-life balance
<groke> yeah exactly Slope
<desvoeuxensis> I did find the plant people a bit annoying, yes, Benchamel.  They reminded me of my sister's narc boyfriend, who just feels like all he should have to do is practice his guitar.  In his eyes he is an elevated being - better than the rest of us worker bees.  But really he's just living off of us.
<doru_araeba> These people seem like workaholica
<desvoeuxensis> I guess that makes me Cox ;)
<groke> i thought the plant people are hippies, initially
<Benchamel> but they dont even practice to play guitar, they are just plants :P
<desvoeuxensis> :P
<saturn> I see the girl in the woods in a different prospective
<Slope> perhaps in the future such elevated beings won't be a problem as the grunt work will be done by robots
<doru_araeba> Playing guitar can be akin to simply surviving, for the pipers
<Slope> we will all look to them for guidance on how to live without busy-work
<doru_araeba> Slope: As i said, it is easy if there's a consensus to adopt such a lifestyle
<desvoeuxensis> It depends on whether sitting in the sun sustains the plant people, or if they still need others to provide food and shelter for them ¬_¬
<Benchamel> but even narcs have some sort of goals, right?
<saturn> it could be that this is also an analogy to how colonialis saw other population and considered less avolute while, infact there where leading a more pacific existence. the plant girl is almost sexulized by the commander
<doru_araeba> desvoeuxensis: Details of feeding and nature's calls are often omitted from fiction, but we cannot rule that out
<saturn> *evolute
<desvoeuxensis> Goals, yes.  Not necessarily enough realism to be adaptable when those goals are unfair or unrealistic.
<Benchamel> if you are in a situation like that where you leech of others there are other issues present that make you end up like that
<Benchamel> these people had good careers
<Benchamel> but then they became plants
<groke> i think there's a consumerism criticism in how the plant people see the world - they say that if everyone were plants, no one would care about going to space anyway, so all those jobs wouldn't be needed in the first place
<doru_araeba> But i doubt you can call this behaviour senility
<doru_araeba> groke: Interesting take
<Benchamel> yeah for sure, groke
<Slope> I got the anticonsumerist vibe from it as well
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<groke> and the response from "society" is the typical "they are dangerous because they demoralize the work ethic"
<doru_araeba> Mhm
<desvoeuxensis> I wondered about that groke.  I wondered if that was true, and the plants had a point.  Or if being plants had just caused them to lose some understanding of the complexities of the situation.  Was their simplicity a deep truth, or was it just blindness and insanity?
<chime> well i got that vibe too, but it didn't make much sense to me.. is the author suggesting plant life is preferable?
<Slope> +1 for deep truth
<doru_araeba> ^^ "Ignorance is bliss" trope possibly?
<doru_araeba> Ostrich thinking?
<Benchamel> are they really ignorant though?
<groke> yeah desvoeuxensis i think it's meant to be an open question, the story doesn't really take any clear stance
<Slope> I think these noble savages were on to something
<saturn> Dick was anarchic, criticis about consumerism is often present in his writing. I have this "beat" vibe from it. I remember readin also kerouac and there is always present the dimension of doing nothing versus the frenetic sociaty that can't live just for the instant
<desvoeuxensis> Agreed groke
<doru_araeba> groke: That's right, I think
<ocb> hmm
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<doru_araeba> I think it's left way too open. I believe, personally, that a long-form work would have been more befitting.
<doru_araeba> For such an idea
<desvoeuxensis> Perhaps Dick just wanted us to ponder these questions about life.  Not suggest that one camp is the right one - but just that we should be thinking about these issues.
<desvoeuxensis> Hey jfoifs :)
<jfoifs> hi guys
<ocb> hi
<jfoifs> i'll stay silent since i didn't read the story
<groke> and both perspectives make sense because some comsumption is zero-sum status games but other is essential to survival so the truth is probably in between
<Slope> ^
<Benchamel> ^
<Slope> we at least need a few hard working robot oilers and dusters
<desvoeuxensis> I would have enjoyed a long-form work also, doru_araeba since i found the premise appealing.  But short stories are kind of interesting in their open-endedness.  I feel like authors choose them when they don't themselves know what they think about a question or experience.
<groke> yes
<desvoeuxensis> Btw this is another nudge story.
<Slope> desvo's goin for the triple crown
<desvoeuxensis> Is it coincidence that we all pick stories about people changing their lives?
<desvoeuxensis> Or does that say something about us?
<doru_araeba> desvoeuxensis: Hmm. I think that is the core of why there is so much to discuss. The more specific the author makes it, the less scope there is, i think.
<desvoeuxensis> haha Slope ;D
<saturn> I guess what we pick it's always a bit about us
<groke> mm
<desvoeuxensis> I would love to live a plant life
<saturn> me too ^^
<doru_araeba> Not me
<Slope> I think the connection to avpd is obvious. Avoidant people are also drop-outs, refusers
<Benchamel> id definitely be a plant
<doru_araeba> If plant life was the life, I'd rather stay unborn
<doru_araeba> Same thing, I think
<Benchamel> so what are we striving for?
<desvoeuxensis> Nice Slope
<doru_araeba> Different things, but something new
<desvoeuxensis> Prize 2 claimed
<doru_araeba> After all, it's the journey not a destination
<groke> guys i have another important aspect i'd like to bring in
<Benchamel> yeah
<Slope> sitting outside in the sun and observing the beauty of nature is one of my favorite things to do
<Benchamel> most people think more about the destination
<desvoeuxensis> Me too
<groke> Are the plants actually as unindustrious as they look or is that simply a projection of human prejudice? Aren't they
<groke> as busy competing for resources and multiplying as everyone else? Recent science even suggests plants such as trees
<groke> collaborate with each other in groups of individuals.
<groke> oops
<groke> i mean actual plants now
<desvoeuxensis> Certainly plants IRL are very industrious
<Benchamel> that is true
<Slope> they make oxygen too
<desvoeuxensis> I just don't know if these dick plants are
<Benchamel> they would take over the universe if they could
<doru_araeba> What you're saying makes sense for sure, but that way, there are infinite aspects from which to consider the plants' lives
<doru_araeba> We cannot extrapolate to everything and anything
<desvoeuxensis> Think of the tobacco plant, that will change from opening its flowers during the day to opening them at night, in order to control the population of insects in the area.
<Slope> I think the dick plants are commendable. While they may not be contributing much, they're also not interfering, extracting or polluting
<doru_araeba> Beimg unspecific has its disadvantages/limitations
<Benchamel> anyone watched The Girl with All the Gifts?
<desvoeuxensis> I have not Benchamel
<doru_araeba> Slope: I haven't read that book, but scientifically what you're saying is untenable
<groke> i didn't know that desvoeuxensis how does that control the insects?
<doru_araeba> Benchamel: Nope
<Benchamel> its sort of relevant
<Benchamel> but i will not spoil :P
<groke> nope Benchamel haven't watched
<Slope> I think it helps the insects
<Slope> who depend on the plant's nectar
<Slope> i could be wrong
<doru_araeba> Everything needs resources, you cannot truly be self-sufficient
<doru_araeba> These humans are not actual plants after all
<desvoeuxensis> groke It's been a while since I read the article, but from what I understand, there is one population of insects that pollinate it and their offspring it its leaves.  But when that insect is eating the tobacco plants too much, they switch to opening at night, attracting night-pollinators, and making the area less attractive to the tobacco-eating insects...
<desvoeuxensis> somehow.  So the tobacco-eating insects reduce in numbers.  And then eventually it flips over to the original cycle.
<Benchamel> but there are examples of harmful plants, right?
<desvoeuxensis> eat* its leaves.
<doru_araeba> Weeds, Benchamel
<doru_araeba> They're toxic to surrounding plants
<doru_araeba> Sort of like how humans live on Earth
<Slope> doru_araebe  true, however things can live in balance in an ecosystem. Take trees in a forest for instance. They extract nutrients from the soil, but they give shade, mulch, and return the nutrients once they die. Everything in the forest lives in a sustainable self-perpetuating cycle.
<Benchamel> nothing has been as harmful as humanity i guess
<groke> what about amish, where are they on the plant dimension? and hippies, NEETS, buddhists, beggars, is there perhaps a spectrum on which every subculture can be arranged based on how much plant they are.
<desvoeuxensis> There is also a lot of evidence of plants sending out chemical signals that warn other plants and insects of danger.
<Benchamel> its a completely different scope
<groke> ah i see desvoeuxensis that's a clever trick tobacco uses then
<Slope> even weeds serve a function. In permaculture weeds are referred to as "pioneer species" doing the work of breaking up soil that has been cleared and compacted usually by humans
<doru_araeba> Seems to be pretty neat
<doru_araeba> Slope: I see
<Benchamel> its always a balance, the weeds perhaps prevents another plant of spreading too much. but there is nothing to prevent humanity from spreading (yet)
<Benchamel> ah Slope, makes sense
<Slope> all populations have natural barriers to infinite growth, we just havent reached ours yet
<doru_araeba> 10 billion is ours, apparently
<Benchamel> well
<Benchamel> what if we figure out space travel?
<Benchamel> colonization
<doru_araeba> Slope: Very enlightening.
<desvoeuxensis> I'm waiting for AI to fix our behavioral problems.
<Slope> then we will be dandelion seeds floating through the galaxy
<Benchamel> maybe there is something in the universe waiting for us
<doru_araeba> Possibly
<saturn> I hope so
<Benchamel> its all the same on a bigger scale
<Slope> 💮
<Benchamel> 🌏
<doru_araeba> There is also this (conspiracy?) theory of humans being a sort of be/behavioural experiment of some highly advanced form of life.
<saturn> lol
<doru_araeba> *game
<jfoifs> bbl
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<Benchamel> that we are a simulation?
<doru_araeba> Essentially, yes
<doru_araeba> Have you seen Conway's Game of Life
<doru_araeba> It's not a game
<Benchamel> nope
<doru_araeba> All the progression depends on the initial state of the bacteria-type orgqnisms
<doru_araeba> Anyway we're digressing
<Benchamel> very interesting
<doru_araeba> desvoeuxensis: Perhaps that is natural for all short stories?(nudging you in some way)
<desvoeuxensis> That's possible, doru!
<desvoeuxensis> They do all seem to have morals
<doru_araeba> ^^
<doru_araeba> Explicit or implicit
<desvoeuxensis> Right
<doru_araeba> I wish we knew what the author was thinking
<groke> has everyone said what they wanted to tell?
<Slope> I think he was having anarchist, societal drop out beatnik feels
<doru_araeba> groke: Not me
<groke> ok
<desvoeuxensis> I think that one of the interesting points he makes is that you can be going along a path in life, thinking it's the best way to be happy.  And then something can happen to change your thinking, and it turns out your view was very narrow after all.  If not wrong, at least incomplete.
<desvoeuxensis> The huge transition in thinking is something we've all experienced.
<doru_araeba> But there is a distinct difference between societal drop-outism and the plant psychology
<Slope> absolutely, desvoeuxensis
<Slope> whats the difference, doru_araeba ?
<groke> yeah and the transition changes the way you look at your life retroactively
<doru_araeba> There was no intent to be a maverick. It was(or seems) to be an independent transition.
<saturn> I remember when I was 18, I read the The Dharma Bums (Kerouac) and I remember this scene where everyone was upset with the main character because he was doing nothing all day but meditating and enjoy the sun, just living in the present. I was struggling with things to do, future, ambitions.. and thinking about it made me just feel peacefull, just let it go.
<saturn> It had a big impact on me. obviously it take inspiration from oriental philosophy. this story, remainds me a bit of this feeling. Humanity as a whole is obsessed with hard work and the idea of the endless pursuit of happiness
<doru_araeba> No where is a collective spirit to become plants mentioned
<Benchamel> i think saturn mentioned that, Slope, about the anarchist beatnik feel
<groke> good point saturn
<Slope> yes, Benchamel, I was echoing her sentiment
<Benchamel> oh okay :)
<doru_araeba> saturn: Neither is that wrong.
<doru_araeba> The way it's portrayed, it almost seems like a disease
<Slope> I think that plant psychology is just a metaphor for buddhist, beatnik, refusalism
<saturn> agree Slope
<doru_araeba> Whereas actually it's a soft in mindset for a few
<groke> and hippies
<doru_araeba> *shift
<Slope> in the time of Dick's writing there was something called the "domino theory"
<doru_araeba> I'm pretty sure there would be people who would refuse to become plants
<Slope> that communism would spread like the falling of dominoes or the spread of a disease
<Benchamel> some people live for work itself
<Benchamel> even without the goal
<doru_araeba> Slope: So many angles to look it at from
<doru_araeba> *at it
<doru_araeba> Benchamel: Case in point Silas Marner
<Slope> I think maybe the contagiousness of plant psychology was an echo of the contagious nature of communist thought
<doru_araeba> Compared to a spinning insect
<groke> very good reflection Slope
<groke> people are scared of ideas spreading like viruses
<doru_araeba> Slope: As well as the anti-Red movement 8 GGermain
<doru_araeba> *in Germany
<Benchamel> because they are harmful to the common idea
<desvoeuxensis> I think that's true, Slope
<doru_araeba> Uhm when was this written?
<desvoeuxensis> He certainly makes it very clear in the story via Cox freaking out about how the entire base stops to function when one person stops doing their work.
<Slope> 1953, height of the red scare
<Benchamel> its like with a cult. if everyone starts having new and different ideas, the cult falls apart
<doru_araeba> Ohhh
<doru_araeba> No wonder
<doru_araeba> Cold war era
<desvoeuxensis> Or the cult becomes a different kind of cult.
<doru_araeba> Benchamel: Leninsm-Trotskyism
<Benchamel> mhm mhm
<groke> Dostoyevsky wrote a book called the possessed in which western theories are compared to the evil spirits that Jesus casted out of a man and then took place in a group of swine that ran off (he meant the revolutionaries were the swine actually, lol) it's another example of comparing ideas to a dangerious virus.. in retrospect some claim that this was kind of prophecy of the soviet union
<desvoeuxensis> Dick could have portrayed the plant people as being more grounded and having a more balanced life.  But he chose to make them extremists.
<Slope> 1953 was right in the middle of McCarthyism when people were being witch hunted and black listed for being suspected communists
<doru_araeba> Sounds a lot like propaganda
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<desvoeuxensis> I misread groke's sentence as "dangerous virtues" instead of "dangerous virus" - which is maybe appropriate.
<saturn> I see the pipers also as metaphore of the noble savage
<desvoeuxensis> True
<Slope> yep
<saturn> it's often used in scifi to talk about aliens as metaphore for colonization
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<Slope> coppery people who live in tune with nature
<doru_araeba> Do you mean to say noble primates, Saturn?
<groke> yes saturn
<doru_araeba> Or savage?
<Slope> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage
<Benchamel> v
<Benchamel> ops
<Benchamel> ^
<groke> ^
<saturn> ^
<doru_araeba> Same thing, i see
<doru_araeba> Cool
<Slope> so who's for and who's against the plant people?
<doru_araeba> Against
<groke> is it either for or against
<Slope> yes, groke. Pick a side. We're at war
<doru_araeba> Haha Slope
<groke> well im against because i wanna be eric cartman when he fights the hippies
<doru_araeba> I think it's more of "to each his own"
* saturn leaves everything and becomes a plant
<saturn> jks
<Slope> "respect my authoritah!"
<desvoeuxensis> groke has a drum circle in his attic
* groke soaks saturn with water
<doru_araeba> More of a personal opinion than a war really
<Slope> I'm for because I'm gonna start a drum circle outside groke's house
<doru_araeba> Staurn is mostly gas anyway
<doru_araeba> *saturn
<Benchamel> ill be a plant
<Slope> ^5 Benchamel
<doru_araeba> This reminds of existential nihilism
<doru_araeba> *me
<Slope> so we got saturn, ben and me on the side of the plants... groke and doru on the side of pointless busy-workers
<Slope> anyone else wanna declare?
<groke> Jam
<chime> i have some experience with the plant life, can't recommend it
<desvoeuxensis> :\
<desvoeuxensis> I feel as chime does, unfortunately.
<Slope> chime and desvo are tipping the scales!
<Slope> any more plant folks?
* groke sprays DDT over everyone
<Slope> lol
<Benchamel> im already spreading
<Slope> looks like concrete hellscape is gonna win
<Benchamel> i have 10 plant children
<saturn> D:
<desvoeuxensis> lol Benchamel
<Slope> good job Benchamel
<Slope> keep it up
* Slope releases spores
<doru_araeba> Clever clever
<Benchamel> now the scale is better
<groke> any other story-related comments?
<groke> Jam, where did you go
<desvoeuxensis> Jam is in the sun.
<Jam> i died
<Slope> he be jammin
<groke> :(
<doru_araeba> You have only 5 billion years anyway
<Jam> turned into a plant
<Slope> Yay! Jam's with us
<groke> *******************
<groke> **END OF BOOKCLUB**
<groke> *******************
<Slope> hey, I was gonna throw in something clever about these being good conditions for a Hegelian synthesis
* Benchamel turns on the outro music