Disaster Area - Today at 02:20
hey
was wondering if ur interested in the gsc retiering stuff at all or not
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 02:37
Generally I am interested in that but I don't know whether I would actually have the commitment to join stuff like "new frontiers" and build teams for them, since I don't want to join tours and not really try hard to perform well - at least for somewhat bigger tours (every forum tour and not random room tourson the ps main server).
Disaster Area - Today at 02:38
i mean i think uf u get involved if u want to try hard and perform well
then that would be a great thing
we want to understand the tier played as competitively as we can
cos thats when we can best understand when stuff is broken etc
exploring a tier for the science of it is a new and interesting experience and
get far enough into it and it can be pretty rewarding a lot of the time
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 02:40
Hmm... I always have a hard time to actually define what is broken and what not. I remember that you asked that in a thread on pp as well. I feel like very often it is just personal preference whether someone likes the tier, its pace, sturdiness, how centralising it is and so on.
Disaster Area - Today at 02:41
Yeah. Unlike smogon we don't try and come up with a hard and fast definition
I think that a player largely knows in their gut when something is broken too
even when u dont like a tier it doesnt follow either that u think smth is broken in it
unless u can pinpoint it to that
for example
i didnt like the old rby 2u meta
but there was definitely nothing broken in it
it just wasnt my kind of tier
but with say mewtwo in rby it's pretty clear that it's broken
even tho rby ubers is an interesting metagame in its own right
it's just clear in your gut as an experienced pokemon player i think
and the more metas u play the better that sense is honed
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 02:43
If I would play in new frontier tours, I would obviously have to build and try out lots of teams and that is quite time consuming, concidering that it is not as easy to build teams which you have never really tried. But of course, that is true for everyone who would participate.
Disaster Area - Today at 02:44
yep
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 02:44
But even when I should not actively participate I would be there to speak about the tour or test some teams in casual games most likely, should anyone would like my help.
Disaster Area - Today at 02:44
thing is that tiering is one of these things where it can be work but
the result of that dcan be rewarding
like with the rby tiering it took months and months and months
but in the end we made a bunch of new awesome metagames
which are all unique and different and interesting
rby 2u is an almost hyper offensive meta where fast offense of some kind generally rules/ruled, not sure on the current state exactly
rby 3u was a metagame with a lot of building diversity and a relative lack of pokemon dominance. The best mons u got in the meta were one or two things that trade with most pokemon pretty well and a solid but not too dangerous sleeper
rby 4u was a really tight metagame where a fast sleeper in venomoth and a fast, strong, paralysis immune nidoking ruled the roost
but in turn that metagame grew quite a bit and water types rose up in interesting ways and all in all games end up pretty close and new developments happened from the start of the tier until now fairly often
like the late rise of drowzee from not being seen as really viable to being seen as probably worthy of a spot in the tier bc of its matchup vs porygon
and rby 5u is my fave and is the most unique of the lot
it's really interesting because it has a really interesting big 4. dragonair is an agiliwrap sweeper with a couple tricks up its sleeve, gastly is the answer to it and also a sleeper
drowzee is a good gastly answer, hard to switch into, and has just ernough special bulk to check stuff
and seadra has the raw power and bulk to be overall very strong but it checks itself and
it's curious, you have these 4 somewhat centralising forces but then
you have like 15 different pokemon that pair together in a number of ways that fill the remaining slots and give each team a really unique feel
like u have more reliable status platforms in vileplume and parasect, u have slow hard hitters and sweepers like graveler lickitung and sd parasect, u have fast frail mons w good coverage or other interesting traits like magmar primeape and ninetales
u have electrode which can be very dangerous if not properly prepared for and can do a lot of damage... u have arbok with wrap and glare
and wrap and the prominence of rest (rest gastly is a standard pokemon!) gives the tier a very interesting pace
it's slow enough that you really have the time to form and implement a gameplan and play for every few % of odds in a game
but never so slow that it borders on tedious
and there's a quite heavy information game i guess in that meta compared to other rby metas too
i mean ok i went on far too long and sorry about that but u can see
i put in the time as did others
and we were rewarded for it, but it didn't come quick and easy
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 02:52
I really think that it is great how pp has formed all these lower tiers for RBY, even though I haven't really played them. (I think I only played a few games of some tiers of them, like 4u).(edited)
Disaster Area - Today at 02:52
yeah
well it would be amazing to have that in all gens
but the first step is 1u
obviously we all have different interests too
in terms of 1u im only interested in rby adv oras but
in terms of lower tiers, im very open to gsc hgss and bw too
once it gets to that stage
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 02:55
How are the GSC 1U frontiers looking so far? I am not really up to date with them but I was following them a bit earlier.
Disaster Area - Today at 02:55
ground to a halt unfortunately :[
the only retiering that's ongoing right now that hasnt done that
is the rby lower tiers
so that's why i want to have us focus on
just 1 extra aspect of retiering besides rby lower tiers
for now
so that people aren't spread too thin
and so that then we can maintain activity and actually see progress
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 02:58
brb
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 03:03
I am back btw but I don't know much to say right now.
Disaster Area - Today at 03:03
alr wb
yea i think the convo has hit its natural conclusion for now
i dont have more to add and its like 3am so
i do love the prospect of retiering however
so fun to talk about haha
it's really a part of what makes PP different and the more we do it the more distinct and full of its own character the site becomes :3
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 03:06
The smogon (or other sites) banlists also were once made and pp is basically the same again. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that it is a bad thing, rather the opposite. I mean, each tier had to be once created and discussed like pp is planning to do.(edited)
Disaster Area - Today at 03:07
yeah
and at least w/ this,
there's a paper trail that's not hard to find
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 03:09
But on the other hand, I have heard that the pp GSC community is very small and I don't know if it is large enough to actually make retiering worth.
It could end up splitting the community more.
Maybe. I don't really know.
Disaster Area - Today at 03:10
the rby retiering didnt split the community more but yea i understand like
not wanting there to be like 2 main gsc metas
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 03:10
But also, some people might be interested in trying out something new because it feels fresh.
Disaster Area - Today at 03:10
the gsc community seems to be on the up right now
how many people were in the gsc season lemme check
23 so far
that's a good amount honestly
definitely better than it was last season i think
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 03:13
I didn't look much at the seasons. I mean, can't really compare it with seasons from the past. I know that the GSC world cup did have activity issues and lost of people joined later as subsitutes to keep the tour alive.
Which is not bad, but of course it would be great to have seen more top players enter it.
Disaster Area - Today at 03:14
yea
i think wcopp got more people interested in gsc tho
deadboots and sceptross seem to have taken to the tier anyway
as a consequence
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 03:14
Yes, I have spoken with both of them about GSC a lot.
Disaster Area - Today at 03:15
also one thing is that actually
retiering can bond the community together more in some ways
if ur doing lots of testing w all these people regularly etc
u become better friends w them and so on
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 03:15
Yes, I agree.
It would just be rather bad if it would turn into "10 friends play a self-made tier" in which many other players are not actually interested.
Disaster Area - Today at 03:17
to some extent thats what were dealing with anyway but
having legit tour players involved gives it some prestige
and even if its not done regularly u do occasionally
get people who pop in
like a few of the newer rby peeps tried out in the rby lower tier world championships
eseque got involved cos i told him about rby 5u
and so on
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 03:18
I mean, if only a couple of people are involved in the re-tiering process (and not all of them are very good at GSC), it could lead to a metagame that many other players would not like.
Hmm...
Disaster Area - Today at 03:18
it won't quite end up that way in part because serendipity and in part because tournaments and legitimacy
then all the more reason to get more players involved(edited)
:stuck_out_tongue:
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 03:20
I guess that there is also a difference in creating a completely new tier that does not exist in a similiar form (or is at least not really explored/completely dead) or just creating one that would end up similiat to an existing tier.
I know that you said that GSC-1L would still get played
but if GSC-1U would slowly try to replace that, it could be difficult when some players heavily disagree with the re-tiering of it.
Disaster Area - Today at 03:22
the plan isn't for it to replace
the plan is for them to coexist peacefully
:3
look at how things are working in bw for example
we actually had bw 1u seasons before bw 1u-l but now we have both
and that's not changing
^^
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 03:23
Yes, but that could also be difficult when there would be much more 1u games in team tours for instance.
Disaster Area - Today at 03:23
there'll be equal amounts
e.g., if bw is included in PPL in some capacity
expect
1 game of BW 1U per week
and 1 game of BW 1U-L per week
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 03:24
I don't know anything about BW. I literally would struggle to name 6 pokemon that were established in that gen.
Disaster Area - Today at 03:24
that's basically the compromise to make everyone happy
I'm just saying that i'm not really sure what there is to worry about
the worst thing that happens is that we end up leaving gsc 1u unfinished wihout finishing testing it
:shrug:
once we have it then both get equal treatment
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 03:26
My point was that if only, let's say 12 people are working on the re-tiering of which only two or three are at a reasonably high GSC level in general, it could easily happen that the tier is not well liked by many other players.
RBY has a great community on pp, Peasounay, TIN, GoldenGyarados, you, GGFan, etc. there are many really strong players that understand the gen well. If they are working on re-tiering as players who has successfully been playing the gen, it is much more likely to turn out to be good.
Disaster Area - Today at 03:29
yeah, I agree
okay so the point you're making basically amounts to
you think we need more people who are very good at the tier involved
more or less
I hear you.
i'm not really well enough connected in the gsc community to help enable that but
as a group if we set out to do that
you and all of your friends and everyone else who plays gsc
if everyone tries to get everyone else that they can to get involved
maybe then we can get enough high quality players involved
in reality i think u probs only need say 5 high quality players involved as like a good minimum
u probably want a bit more but the rby lower tiers stuff was pretty fruitful even when we had numbers around that of like high level tournament calibre players
so what do u think. do u think successful gsc retiering is realistic if we work towards it?
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 03:33
Hmm.... Maybe we should consider to have something like a provisional signup or poll asking who would be interested in working on the re-tiering process and joining the new frontiers.
Disaster Area - Today at 03:33
kind of already there
http://www.pokemonperfect.com/forums/index.php?threads/where-should-we-prioritise-for-retiering.4803/
FriendOfMrGolem120 - Today at 03:33
And decide afterwards if he should start it now or wait a bit.
Disaster Area - Today at 03:33
added a poll to the OP
but this is just raw numbers and not necessarily indicative of quality
my advice is speak w people word of mouth
get their sense of things, see who's interested and who's not, and so on
collect your own data I guess even of that
I sort of informally collected data on it today I guess
finding out that you would consider getting involved
and that hyogafodex would probably get involved
and sceptross probably would too