Garu vs Tarro

DGL:

1. All Black vs Dragon: While there was plenty of other argumentation going on here, such as the speed of the nanothorns, how good at cutting things the nanothorns are, how many ships Dragon has and can control, I think this round comes down to one key piece of argumentation. Is Dragon fast enough to kill All Black before he can throw a literal single attack? I don't believe that Tarro argued Dragon's speed strongly enough to state this is true, and given Garu's feats for All Black's striking, I think he just oneshots the entire arena and Dragon with it. AB 10/10

2. Zorian vs Glastig: I don't believe that Tarro established a strong basis for Zorian being fast, nor for his telepathic attacks being extremely reliable. On the other hand, I don't buy that Glastig would be immune or highly difficult for Zorian to attack telepathically. Tarro's scan of him incapacitating a troll without reading its mind goes a long way here, as does the quote of Glastig being figured out by a psychologist without too much difficulty. Given that neither is fast, and neither is immune to the other's attacks, it really does come down to a quickdraw. While Tarro stated that the 1/3 scan was from chapter 32, he never showed any evidence of a substantially greater success rate. Zorian 3.33/10, Glastig 6.66/10

3. Ringo vs Cable: Tarro has conceded this match, admitting that Cable will just pull Ringo's skirt off with TK due to his superior speed.


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Fenris:

Judgments--Tarroyn vs. Garurulous



Dragon vs. Gorr

Garurulous wins. Overall, he presents a clearer argument for why Gorr defeats Dragon, while also poking some notable holes in Tarroyn’s points. A fundamental turning point of the debate for me was the simple question of whether the combatants can hurt/defeat each other. Obviously, if one combatant struggles to even harm the other, then secondary questions about speed, etc become less important.

With that in mind, I agree with Garurulous that Gorr can harm Dragon with his strength and Necro-weapons. Tarroyn does not contest this, and the concession leads me to believe that yes, Gorr has the strength and weapons to defeat Dragon.

A more contentious issue is whether Dragon could significantly harm Gorr, and I think Garurulous raises convincing evidence and counterarguments to Tarroyn’s claims. First, Tarroyn points to the nanothorn tech that is capable of cutting through 70-80% of Leviathan, who is extremely durable, and increasingly so as one gets closer to it’s core. Tarroyn also provides some impressive sounding numbers to try and quantify the feat. However, I feel that Tarroyn fails to adequately connect this to overcoming Gorr’s durability. Garurulous provides feats of Gorr taking hits that can damage distant planets or send him flying light years away, which if my physics consultant (thanks Joshless) is right, should be better than feats of cutting Leviathan. There are also some issues of whether Tarro’s calcs were even fundamentally sound, which casts them further into doubt. So, Tarro’s nano-thorn argument feels shaky to me, whereas there doesn’t seem to be any question about Gorr harming Dragon.

Tarroyn’s secondary argument that the stasis grappling hook could freeze or even dissipate Gorr also falls a little flat for me. Garurulous pointed out the assumptions needed for this argument, namely that it would interact with the Necro-blade just like it would a Worm-verse entity. Also, I wasn’t convinced that it would necessarily or totally freeze Gorr given that Skitter got hit with it and still moved afterwards. Yes, Tarroyn pointed out that it just affected her clothes, but she definitely still seemed to move up until a point after being hit. For Gorr it also assumes that the necroblade is one continuous piece rather than having separated into berserker warriors or projectiles. Just too many questions here for me to be convinced.

So, Garurulous pretty clearly established that Gorr could harm Dragon, whereas Tarroyn’s points were less convincing. Moving from this point, the secondary issues of Gorr’s and Dragon’s speed seem less relevant. Maybe if Dragon had some massive speed advantage, Tarroyn would have something here, but both combatants kind of have murky speed, and certainly neither has some massive advantage to my eye. Similarly, Tarroyn’s points about multiple ships were a little unclear and seemingly less important if he can’t establish that Dragon could significantly harm Gorr in the first place.

Winner: Garurulous



Zorian vs. Glaistig

I’m going with Tarroyn here, as I think he does just enough to show that Zorian has a better chance of attacking first and his attack being effective than not. I should note though, that this was a very close debate and I’m not very convinced one way or the other.

Tarroyn once again went with a kind of “the best defense is a good offense” strategy, implicitly conceding that Glaistig can one-shot Zorian, given that he offers zero evidence in the way of Zorian’s defense. Instead, the debate circled around whether Zorian can get his attack off first, and whether it’s effective.

Regarding Zorian’s speed, I agree with Tarroyn that Zorian seems to have an advantage, however slight, if only because he actually has some feats indicating combat trained reactions and speed. Now, I agree with Garurulous that Zorian’s speed feats aren’t very concrete, but I think he underplays their value a bit. For example, yes “blinding speed” is mostly a colorful turn of phrase, but Garurulous dismisses it completely rather than taking the figuration for it’s intended meaning—“very fast.” Therefore, I find it likely that Zorian may only have reactions and speed within the range of a normal human, but at least a fast, or above average for a human. Similarly, reacting to a scouting crow and aim-dodging bullets isn’t amazing or superhuman, but it is impressive for a normal person to react that quickly in that situation.

Garurulous, other the other hand, presents no argument on Glaistig’s speed, despite conceding that the match amounts to a quick draw….bold strategy. This hurts his case if only because Glaistig’s speed is totally unclear whereas Zorian’s appears impressive in some capacity (if only for a normal human). It’s unclear how fast Glaistig’s shades manifest, how quickly they act to attack, etc. So, while I am by no means completely convinced that Zorian is much faster, the argument there is a tad more convincing.

So, if Zorian potentially gets his attack off faster, the question turns to whether the attack is effective. This is where the argument gets hard for me to pin down as a lot hinges on in-universe mechanics and how they interact with another universe. Ultimately though, I thought Garurulous’s arguments for Glaistig’s defenses were a little lacking. Yes, she can deflect mental attacks to shades, but then that seemed to be a particular kind of body control, and again the speed at which she produces the shades is at issue again here. Similarly, Garurulous points out that Zorian can struggle with strange minds, but that seems to be more in regards to reading and understanding those strange minds, rather than just blasting them. So yeah, I’m not sure that Zorian’s attacks work well enough, but having to basically bet, I’m going with “yes.”

Tarroyn wins



Ringo vs. Cable

Garurulous wins by arguing that Cable is faster, more skilled, and has offensive options Ringo has no defense towards. Tarro’s concession reads like he's joking, but with no real counterarguments mounted, I’m giving this to Garurulous.

Garurulous wins.


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Mikhail:

 - Dragon vs. Necrosword
  - The bulk of this debate focus on the cross-universe mechanics of the interaction between the combatants, particularly with regard to Dragon's Nanothorn and Stasis Hook. Tarro did the better job formatting here and making the debate sensible, and I think successfully hammered home the point that Garuru can't have his cake and eat it too when it comes to what the Necrosword is made of, pinning down Garuru's reliance on the Necrosword's makeup being so vague that it resists whatever he needs it to. Alternatively, Garuru seemed to have the better grip on the source material for both characters and adequately tore many aspects of Dragon's offense/defense apart (particularly her inability to multitask). All of the cross-universe interactions aside, however, the debate ultimately boiled down to each combatant's initial attacks and their efficacy. Garuru was right to point out Tarro did little to counter the Necrosword's ranged and AoE options, while Garuru adequately defended the possibilities for Necrosword resisting the Nanothorn and Stasis Hook attacks to at least some degree. Garuru wins the match.
 - Zorian vs. Glaistig
  - Again, cross-universe mechanics proved a major sticking point, particularly with regards to how well Zorian's mind control could even work against Glaistig. From the arguments laid out on the table it does not seem certain that Zorian's TP attack would be an instant incap, and Garuru was smart to point out the Glaistig maintained win cons if he was not immediately incapped. Perhaps more importantly were the speed arguments detailing which combatant would hit first, and Garuru successfully complicated all of the proposed speed feats for Zorian. With both of these factors in mind, it seems inevitable that Glaistig would either win the match by getting a first attack in or win it immediately after when surviving an initial attack. Garuru wins the match.
- Ringo vs. Cable
  - Cable's ranged options such as TP and bullets exploited Ringo's vulnerability to both, while Cable's ability to use TP to perceive Ringo's weaknesses (including a weird skirt thing) was also uncountered. Garuru made it abundantly clear that Cable would use his powers, and Tarro's only defense was to say he wouldn't. Even Tarro seemed to concede the fight. Garuru wins the match.