Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:02
ok sounds good, just read over the convo
I think the last time we just weren't clear enough that this was to create a new "ou" so to speak. Hack's argument was premised around the idea we were banning kyogre from adv ubers (the way something like mega ray is banned in the current gen iirc) but in reality kyogre was just the first mon we were banning from ou. I also think it's important to emphasize that any arguments regarding how unbalanced the tier would become after a ban aren't valid arguments since the whole point is to keep banning until we get a balanced tier not to keep a mon because it's a lesser evil than another mon would be if that first mon was banned
Disaster Area - Today at 23:05
ok those are good points
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:05
The part where it gets tricky is applying these rules across generations
which you touched on with m drag
Disaster Area - Today at 23:06
still there are multiple players who are engaged in PP's tiering
who think that ubers should be 1U in every gen bar RBY
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:06
since balance in 1 gen means different things in another gen
Disaster Area - Today at 23:06
(like ortheore and melle)
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:07
yeah, i think that comes down to what the definition of balance actually means, and that's the hard part. Everyone has a different definition and it's really hard to actually nail down the wording of what they are and then if we do manage to do that, get people to agree to it.
especially if we're applying general standards across generations
Disaster Area - Today at 23:07
yeah... hmm I think the thing w applying standards across the generations is that
it's not that we can't but to do so
would mean basically we need different threshholds of what's considered broken or unbalanced or overcentralising
depending on the generation
which makes things even trickier
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:08
yeah, i personally would be in favor of having the standards be generation specific
Disaster Area - Today at 23:08
interesting
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:08
because like you mention balance in rby and balance in adv are pretty different
the problem then though is it does make it harder to be objective
Disaster Area - Today at 23:09
I think centralisation is more subjective per the generation
than balance
I mean
more varied
but actually less subjective I guess
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:09
since for example me as an adv ou player might see balance in a very adv ou centric context
Disaster Area - Today at 23:09
there are ways of doing hard and fast things regarding centralisation
but people probably would object to that
and it would make results we dont like lol
like saying lax is too centralising in ou or ttar in adv or something
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:10
yeah i guess the question there is if centralization is a qualifier for lack of balance or just an indicator
Disaster Area - Today at 23:10
i mean ttars adv ou usage is probably
higher than kyogres or lati@s's in adv ubers
lol
but they are also clearly more centralising than ttar I think?
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:11
hmm yeah i think high usage can be used as an indicator that something is unbalanced but it doesn't mean something is certainly unbalanced. I think usage of a pokemons counters (especially if they're otherwise bad) is a much better indicator
Disaster Area - Today at 23:12
actually
that is a great point
lol(edited)
like ttar's answers
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:13
that being said i don't know if there's really many examples of that in adv ubers
Disaster Area - Today at 23:13
are very good anyway
kyogre's answers
except latis and bliss
suck
outside of doing that job(edited)
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:14
hmm what are the examples there?
Disaster Area - Today at 23:14
lanturn, quagsire, shedinja, ludicolo
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:14
like ludicolo or something?
Disaster Area - Today at 23:14
are other kyogre checks
yea
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:14
ah how much usage do those guys get?
Disaster Area - Today at 23:14
latis and bliss are basically the best answers
no idea maybe u could
look it up
but hack was talking about them in his response to the kyogre suspect
so I figure they're serious considerations
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:15
true, i wonder where i could find those stats. I feel like any adv ubers stats would be pretty unreliable
Disaster Area - Today at 23:15
the thing is tho lati@s are top mons in adv ubers
maybe ask the ubers community
see if they can give u a good answer
I can ask around later if u want even
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:16
hmm maybe when we eventually do new frontiers or whatever equivalent, a part of it should be recording usage statistics
Disaster Area - Today at 23:17
yeah I think that's a good idea
this has been a super productive conversation lol
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:17
that would give us a better way to determine how long we should wait too before we start implementing bans
since we could do it when we have enough of a sample size for the results to be reliable
Disaster Area - Today at 23:18
well they're always gonna have limited usefulness but yea
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:18
of course the question is how long that would take
Disaster Area - Today at 23:18
I think we need to not use them except to make
easy to make very broad conclusions
probably a few weeks and depends on the generation/amount of players too(edited)
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:20
yeah, it would at the very least give a much clearer picture
and would also allow us to ask adv ubers experts about what we should be using more based on their experience
Disaster Area - Today at 23:21
yea thats true too(edited)
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:22
like if something that's normally a staple has abnormally low usage then we could use that to indicate if our view of the meta may be skewed as a result, which i think happened when we did adv 2u a long way back
Disaster Area - Today at 23:22
yup
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:23
alright im glad i could be helpful :smiley: i'll let you know if I have any other ideas
Disaster Area - Today at 23:24
yea this was really productive
I'll probably write up a summary post later
Cowboy Dan - Today at 23:24
sounds good!